DISCUSSION - Would Evolution ever work as a FACE stable like Degeneration X?

[Heyman]

DISCUSSION - Would Evolution ever work as a FACE stable like Degeneration X?

I can't remember if I've posted a topic similar to this or not, but I'm too lazy to check. :-\

Anyways - here is my concern:

1) Evolution will break up (Orton and Batista boot out Flair and Triple H or something).

2) Orton becomes the leader of the group.


My initial concern of something like this happening, was that Evolution would become a mid-card stable for awhile (since Orton won't be main-eventing for the next half year or so anyways).

In rebuttal to this concern of mine, many people pointed out that Degeneration X also became a mid-card stable when Triple H initially took over.

My response to THIS is.

1) DX were WAY over as faces.

2) Can Evolution be just as 'over' as DX was?

Elaborating on point#2 a little more, my concern is that Evolution would basically become another 'Nation of Domination' if Orton took over. It would basically become a mid-card heel stable, of which the fans don't care too much about.

<font color=white>Unless a strong face stable opposes Evolution, or Evolution themselves can get over as faces (like DX), is it really in the WWE's best interests to have Orton 'take over' Evolution and start a new group? </font>

Here is what I'm thinking:

<font color=pink>If Triple H is destined to break away from Evolution, end Evolution altogether</font>

I mean - do you really want to see guys like Shelton Benjamin or Maven be added to this 'NEW' Evolution anyways? For a guy like Benjamin, it would hold him down more than anything (since he would play second fiddle to Orton). Maven on the other hand, could make the stable look 'less elite' (Maven is not exactly a 'big name' in the company). Granted - DX added guys like Road Dogg Jesse James, X-Pac, and Billy Gunn, but the group CLICKED right away........abd became WAY over with the fans. I DOUBT that Evolution can do that.


Here is what I'd do with the current members of Evolution:

Dave Batista: Send him to Smackdown, and eventually mold him into a "Lesnar/Goldberg-type" wrestler (i.e. a guy who dominates his matches, and eventually gets pushed to the main-events). Unlike Lesnar however, don't give Batista 'too much too soon' in terms of success.

Randy Orton w/Ric Flair: Keep Orton aligned with Ric Flair. Let Orton be a singles star, with Flair as manager.

Triple H: Have him turn face, and have him feud with Orton (with Flair). With Flair and Orton on one side, perhaps Shawn Michaels and Triple H could have a 'common enemy' of sorts......and fight the two men. :?:


p.s. On a COMPLETELY unrelated note, I also think it's important for the WWE to work on putting Lita and Matt back together (and pushing Matt w/Lita as a strong babyface). I also think Kane needs to turn face, and become a sadistic face that destroys random heels.

[Savio]

Maybe evolution gets fed up with HHH and they Jump HHH from behind after HHH blaasts the crowd this would make them loose allies with HBK. Damn I forget where I was heading.

[The CyNick]

Every week with this topic.

Look Orton is a main eventer, well basically. Have you seen the ads for this coming PPV? One is about the triple threat, the other is about Orton-Foley. In fact I would say Orton-Foley has been pushed harder than the title match with Hunter being wrapped up with Benjamin.

DX was over to a degree, but they got much more popular when they turned face under Hunter, who once again was further down the card than Orton is now.

Orton will be feuding with Hunter for the World Title. I think the way this will play out is that Hunter will leave, in the meantime Orton takes more of a leadership role (Flair could talk about picking up the slack while HHH is gone). HHH will come back, win the World Title, and the group will be back to where it is now. But I dont see the split coming until after Hunter comes back, wins and then probably loses the title again. At that point I can see Orton dumping Flair and Hunter.

In terms of Benjamin, there's nothing wrong with putting him in Orton's current spot (#2), while Orton main events with the World Title. Benjamin will not be ready for the World Title in the next year, so he can take over the IC title spot. At some point he can turn back babyface and leave the group.

[What Would Kevin Do?]

Eh, while any member of Evolution could work as a face ( Orton and Batista being on the lower end of that assumption) I see Evolution as mainly a heel image. Think about it, their main thing is that they believe they are better then everyone else. That type of egotism wouldn't convert well IMO.

Everything else I can pretty much agree with, except I don't think a long term face run for HHH is a good idea, mainly because he's already so dominant. As a rule, Heels usually use underhanded tactics, will run away, etc. HHH on the other hand, with the exception of the occasional low blow or weapon, wrestles an upperhand face style match. Switching him to a face would mean you'd raise his dominance in the match, and I don't think we want that any higher.

[Savio]

Orton not ready to main event yet.

[The CyNick]

Eh, while any member of Evolution could work as a face ( Orton and Batista being on the lower end of that assumption) I see Evolution as mainly a heel image. Think about it, their main thing is that they believe they are better then everyone else. That type of egotism wouldn't convert well IMO.

Everything else I can pretty much agree with, except I don't think a long term face run for HHH is a good idea, mainly because he's already so dominant. As a rule, Heels usually use underhanded tactics, will run away, etc. HHH on the other hand, with the exception of the occasional low blow or weapon, wrestles an upperhand face style match. Switching him to a face would mean you'd raise his dominance in the match, and I don't think we want that any higher.

I dont think Hunter makes for much of a babyface either, but I'm almost certain he will turn. Reason being is that the WWE is trying to make him a movie star, and its harder to sell movies as a heel than it is as a babyface. So even though he may play a better heel, for the sake of promoting his movies they will turn him face.

[Loose Cannon]

Nah, I would keep Evolution Heel if they broke away. Now if Orton and Batista ever do break away and form a new group, here's what I would like to see happen: When Batista and Orton turn on Trips and Flair, they "injure" HHH and he would be out for a few months. Flair would leave for a couple of weeks and then come back and get revenge or whatever. Now with HHH out of the picture, I would bring up a strong babyface for Orton, like Benjamin (Yeah, he and Orton are the same level, so they shouldn't be on the same team) and let Benjamin start a babyface STABLE to feud with Evolution. Don't ask me who would join, I'd have to think about that some more. Anyway, the Factions have matches and feud with each other for a few months, keeping Orton/Benjamin the main feud for the I.C. Title within the Factions. This would resemble HHH/Rock back in DX VS The Nation. So Orton and Benjamin have a final encounter at one of the PPV's for the Title. Benjamin walks out as champ.

Next, I would do an Orton-Michaels on Raw the next night.(Just wait and see what I'm setting up) Maybe Michaels should be the World Champ going into this scenerio too. Anyway the match lasts a long time and Michaels is just about to get the win. The New Evolution comes down and attacks Michaels. Flair comes out and tries to make the save, but to no avail. Orton grabs a chair and puts Michaels leg inside of it signaling that he's going to break his leg. All of a sudden, HHH's music hits and he comes charging down with a sledge. He takes out all the New Evolution, except Orton, who barely got away. HHH helps Flair up and hugs him. Then he goes to a bloody Michaels and picks him up. They do a long dramatic pause and finally hug to end the show. BAM.


Then HHH and Orton would feud, cultimating with a match at Mania 21.

[Savio]

The best thing that could happen is evolution drops Hunter and picks up Kane.

[What Would Kevin Do?]

I dont think Hunter makes for much of a babyface either, but I'm almost certain he will turn. Reason being is that the WWE is trying to make him a movie star, and its harder to sell movies as a heel than it is as a babyface. So even though he may play a better heel, for the sake of promoting his movies they will turn him face.

I agree, that's probably what will happen, but I think it'll be futile. HHH is not the Rock. While HHH may be able to act, he lacks what the Rock has. The Rock has a certain type of charisma that makes people want to watch him. If he goes on a talk show, he's interesting to listen to even if you don't like wrestling. HHH on the other hand doesn't have that from what I've seen. In the long run, I think WWE is just going to waste money on HHH in the movies.

[MVP]

I don't see what's so bad about putting Shelton Benjamin as Orton's second fiddle. Orton is going to be in the World Title scene by the end of the year and Shelton is the new blue chipper of RAW so I think it'd be great for him to turn heel and join Evolution playing the role that Randy Orton used to play.

Think about this scenario: Shelton starts to get irritated with the fact that he's not main event after Triple H leaves, because guys like Benoit, HBK, Edge, and Jericho are all holding him down. So during some tag team match against Evolution, Shelton turns on Benoit and HBK and joins Evolution as their new fourth member claiming that since he's in Evolution he'll get the opportunities he deserves. Later on I can see Shelton holding the IC title; possibly winning it from Edge who previously defeats Randy Orton for the strap since he's unable to feud with Triple H.

Benefits:
Shelton Benjamin becomes the top midcard heel.
Edge and Orton get elevated to the main event.
Guys like Matt Hardy and Lance Storm can be pushed as the top midcard faces.

[Moongoose Mcqueen]

I don't think Evolution would work as faces, because the nature of the stable is arrogant, snobby members who feel they are the best and are basically cheaters. Where as DX was a fun loving, crotch-chopping, group of immature jokers who had attitude, whether packaged as heels or faces.

^^^^
Ultimate mark statement, haha.

[Kane Knight]

I don't see it working on the face side of things.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Batista and Ric Flair would make great faces. As World Tag Team Champions they could rule the division. :y:

Maybe Batista could turn babyface with Flair as his manager? Orton would also make a great fce, but not whil he is still establishing himself. Maybe when Triple H returns we could see the Legend Killer turn babyface.

[MVP]

Batista and Ric Flair would make great faces. As World Tag Team Champions they could rule the division. :y:

Maybe Batista could turn babyface with Flair as his manager? Orton would also make a great fce, but not whil he is still establishing himself. Maybe when Triple H returns we could see the Legend Killer turn babyface.I can't see Batista as a face, in fact I'm having a hard enough time watching him on TV in general. His wrestling skill is bland because he's mainly over because of his size, and he has no personality besides being a monster/bodyguard.

[tucsonspeed6]

Funny thing about this thread: Last night I was being a dumbass and I threw up the idea that they should have one big gimmick where for one night all of the faces became heels and all of the heels become faces. I mentioned this right before the big 8 man tag match, and my friends thought it pretty dumb because then the only faces on Raw would be Evolution, La Resistance, and Christian, but I kept pushing the idea. Then Evolution came out all at once and I came to realize that the switch could come rather easily. When they came out to their music, they looked like gods. They looked like no group of wrestlers could ever take them down (Sure, Flair is practically at the bottom of the wrestling ladder these days and the others can't win a match without cheating, but I'm just speaking about the asthetic value of it all.) If anyone taped Raw last night, just play their entrance and imagine them as a face faction. It surprised me, maybe it'd do something for somebody else and I'll be proven sane again.

[Heyman]

Funny thing about this thread: Last night I was being a dumbass and I threw up the idea that they should have one big gimmick where for one night all of the faces became heels and all of the heels become faces. I mentioned this right before the big 8 man tag match, and my friends thought it pretty dumb because then the only faces on Raw would be Evolution, La Resistance, and Christian, but I kept pushing the idea. Then Evolution came out all at once and I came to realize that the switch could come rather easily. When they came out to their music, they looked like gods. They looked like no group of wrestlers could ever take them down (Sure, Flair is practically at the bottom of the wrestling ladder these days and the others can't win a match without cheating, but I'm just speaking about the asthetic value of it all.) If anyone taped Raw last night, just play their entrance and imagine them as a face faction. It surprised me, maybe it'd do something for somebody else and I'll be proven sane again.

It's funny, but I actually wouldn't mind seeing that (won't happen in a MILLION years, but it is interesting). Think about it.

-Triple H turns face, and feuds with perhaps a newly turned heel in Chris
Benoit

-Orton turns face, and feuds with up-and-comer Christian (who has LOTS of momentum right now IMO).

-Batista could feud with Kane.

-Ric Flair would be over against anyone as a face.

The group as a whole has decent mic skills, and so it could work I guess. It would be kind of cool to see them pissing off Bischoff and Nitro.

[PureHatred]

Think about it, their main thing is that they believe they are better then everyone else.

There you go..even the name "Evolution" denotes a sense of egotism. Elitist groups don't come across well as "good guys."

Also, Flair has always worked better as a heel. And Batista is terrible. He can't work at all. As I said in another thread, as a wrestler, he's a great body builder. So anything where he splits off from Flair and/or Hunter would result in all his weaknesses being exposed and him suffering a major slide down the card. Not exactly a bad thing, unless you're a Batista fan.

Anyways, Evolution isn't a face stable. If Orton becomes the new leader, they could add someone like Christian, Benjamin, or even an OVW guy. As long as they kept Flair around to cut promos, they'd be fine.

[Funky Fly]

I don't see it working on the face side of things.
Yeah, what's the point of combining DX with the 4 Horsemen?

A face run would never work.

[PureHatred]

The group as a whole has decent mic skills, and so it could work I guess

What exactly is your definition of "decent." I'm trying to recall a single promo by Batista that I thought wasn't terrible or a single promo by Orton that I thought was even passably memorable.

Also... Heel Flair & Heel Triple H > Face Flair and Face Triple H

When it comes to wrestling, these kind of groups that refer to themselves as an elite group of athletes, as "better" than their competition just naturally work better as heels. People want to cheer the underdog; its why so many people boo the Yankees. It's why you don't root for MicroSoft. When the group is really successful as heels, they start to get their share of fans and cheers from the crowd. But that doesn't mean you turn them. This isn't 1984..it's ok for people to cheer the heels. And a turn would effecively take away the qualities of the group that people get behind. Like someone already said, these aren't a bunch of cocky jokesters. This is a sneering, arrogant, 'I'm better than you' group of assholes.

From a storyline POV, it just makes more sense for a group like Evolution to stay as heels.

[Aussie Skier]

[b]

Triple H: Have him turn face, and have him feud with Orton (with Flair). With Flair and Orton on one side, perhaps Shawn Michaels and Triple H could have a 'common enemy' of sorts......and fight the two men. :?:


who is gonna cheer for HHH???
i mean, the fact that what u read on here, no one likes him anymore

[Heyman]

who is gonna cheer for HHH???
i mean, the fact that what u read on here, no one likes him anymore

I think Triple H will receive a very decent face reaction. He won't be confused with The Rock or Austin anytime soon, but I'm sure that he'll get a decent response.

1) The fans/marks are always suckers for 'big names'. If they sense some is a mega-star, that guy will almost always get cheered. Alot of it is just 'reputation' and 'image'.

2) Triple H is charismatic enough (and has decent enough mic skills) to get over as a face.

Maybe he won't be as 'loved' right away, but that will change (if you noticed with Chris Benoit, he gradually became more and more liked. It was a gradual thing. Same thing can happen with Hunter).


3) The "freshness" of Triple H should be enough to elicit a better crowd response. As I've said in the past, Triple H is basically the inverse of The Rock. In 2000, The Rock was a great face who then became stale in 2002 (hence the boos). A heel turn completely re-vitalized his character.

In 2000, Triple H was arguably the greatest heel of all-time (debate this all you want, but you got to give the man credit). A few years later, his act got stale.

Contrary to what many believe, I think the WWE should've kept Triple H as a face in 2002 (instead of turing him heel to feud with HBK before Summerslam). Granted - Triple H wasn't getting the greatest responses at the time, but consider the following facts.

1) He had feuded with Hulk Hogan.

2) Initially when Triple H came back, Stephanie (a heel) kept bragging to the crowd about how great Triple H was (which slightly turned the fans away from Triple H).

3) Leading up to Royal Rumble, Triple H was constantly in the faces of The Rock and Austin.


I mean - Triple H's face run was F</>UCKED right from the beginning. Think back to 1999 when The Rock initially turned face (after Mania). Did the WWE make him continue to feud with Austin? Did The Rock constantly get in the face of Mankind? X-Pac? (X-Pac was actually one of the top faces at this time). <font color=white> No - The Rock feuded with HEELS and NEVER crossed paths with a face until he was FIRMLY established as a FACE himself. The WWE did not do this with Hunter. </font>


Basically - here is how I'd have the faces and heels on Raw.


FACES

-Triple H (acts a little more like he did during his face DX days....i.e. a little more 'playful', a little less pyscho-obsessive).

-Chris Jericho (does what he did in 2000)

-Kane (a sadistic bad ass face that randomly attacks heels and raises hell a la Austin)

-Matt Hardy (hooks back up with Lita)

-Shelton Benjamin (continues to do what he's doing now)

-Shawn Michaels (see above)

-Eugene (continue being a retard! :D)

HEELS
-Chris Benoit (a super serious champion who does anything possible to stay as champ)

-Randy Orton (keeps doing what he's doing)

-Dave Batista (see above)

-Christian (see above)

-Edge (I really think he should re-align himself with Christian. They don't have to be a full-time tag team, but they can still be aligned and help one another in important singles matches. IMO - Edge doesn't have the neccessary mic skills or "ooomph" to really get over as a face.....in the manner that guys like Cena and Guerrero have).

-Ric Flair (put over young faces)

-Scott Steiner (see above. Perhaps even a move to Smackdown may be a decent idea....since Smackdown needs more heels).

[PureHatred]

For one week, let's just watch and enjoy and not try to completely re-write everything that is happening on TV. mmmmkay...please???

[Heyman]

For one week, let's just watch and enjoy and not try to completely re-write everything that is happening on TV. mmmmkay...please???

These are just my opinions. I love playing 'armchair storyline writer'. :).

I still contend that Kane, Matt Hardy, and even Triple H would be MUCH better off as faces.

Kane - can play the pyscho badass that beats up on random heels. If you noticed at the end of 1998, Kane was WAY over as a face. I still recall that one night where he kept walking out and chokeslamming random people. If the WWE however make Kane out to be a homosexual and make him to be 'human' (one that has 'feeling's and/or purposely plays to the fans), then he WON"T be over. He needs to be kind of like Stone Cold Steve Austin....and be a badass.

Matt Hardy - WAY the heck over. Put him back with Lita (WWE needs to book this part right......and not just put them back together in one day), and watch him soar to the top. I contend that this guy could be just as over as Eddie Guerrero.

Triple H - See me last post. However - I'll re-iterate a few points. Because Triple H is a main-eventer, the fans will cheer for him. The marks are suckers for 'big names'. Hence - they cheered Lesnar. Triple H's character also needs to be refreshed.


In exchange for this face turns, I'd turn Benoit and Edge heel.

[PureHatred]

I understand that they are your opinions, and I hope you've heard of EWR with all the armchair booking you do, but as a fan I like the idea of good stories with a sense of continuity. I just don't think I could watch a show where a third of the roster goes from heel to face or vice versa in the course of a year.

Some of the angles you suggest make good sense, but put them all together and you get a little discombobulated.

[Mr. Nerfect]

I can't see Batista as a face, in fact I'm having a hard enough time watching him on TV in general. His wrestling skill is bland because he's mainly over because of his size, and he has no personality besides being a monster/bodyguard.

In OVW he was supposedly over huge as the Leviathan. I think all thy need to do is let Ric Flair speak for him. :y:

[Mr. Nerfect]

Would anyone else like to see Rhyno join Evolution if/when Tiple H leaves?

[Mr. Nerfect]

Alright, here is how I would setup the RAW scene (once Triple H leaves, and returns):

Faces
Al Snow
Batista
Chris Jericho
Chuck Palumbo
Eric Bischoff
Eugene Dinsmore
Gail Kim
Grand Master Sexay
Jerry Lawler
Jim Ross
Kane
Lilian Garcia
Maven
Mick Foley
Molly Holly
Nidia
Ric Flair
Rob Conway
"Redd Dogg" Rodney Mack
Rosey
Shelton Benjamin
Steven Richards
Stone Cold Steve Austin
Tajiri
Test
The Hurricane
Tommy Dreamer
Triple H
Victoria
William Regal

Heels
A-Train
Chris Benoit
Christopher Nowinski
Christian
Garrison Cade
Ivory
Jacqueline
Jazz
Johnny Nitro
Jon Heidenreich
Jonathan Coachman
Lance Storm
Lita
Mark Henry
Matt Hardy
Randy Orton
Rhyno
Scott Steiner
Shawn Michaels
Stacy Keibler
Sylvain Grenier
The Rock
Trish Startus
Val Venis

[Heyman]

Would anyone else like to see Rhyno join Evolution if/when Tiple H leaves?

No. In my opinion, Evolution should consist of 'elitist' wrestlers. Unless Rhyno goes on a strong winning streak to re-establish credibility, I do not want to see him join Evolution.

[tucsonspeed6]

Rhyno doesn't really have the same charisma that HHH has either. He'd be a good match in the ring, if he decided to work it, but on the mic it just wouldn't be the same. HHH doesn't really get over as a face, though. Flair's face turn would be easy enough, and I think Orton's face turn wouldn't be too tough either. If Batista goes with the two of them, his turn wouldn't be too rough either. I just don't see the fans basking in HHH's face glory. They sure as hell didn't last time...