the great comic book clash, issue 1: fists like wrecking balls

[mitchables]

ladies and gentlemen, thank you once again for joining me here to determine once and for all which archetype we love the most in the tpww great comic book clash.

so, i figure between 13-17 votes is about what we're going to muster up per round, since the comics-savvy contingent of the board is about that many people. also, these are quick and easy to do, so they might happen every couple days when i get bored of writing my thesis. i'll be at my computer a lot over the next few weeks so don't be surprised.

anywho, without further ado, we've built on the lessons we learned last time and so for the first official match-up of the competition, we've got two freaky shapeshifters: a silicon man and his sludgy counterpart.

round one: sandman (aka. flint marko; marvel) vs clayface (aka. preston payne; dc)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/7/79/Tboltssandman.jpg/250px-Tboltssandman.jpg vs. http://fairyblood.de/Bilder/Ryman/clayface.jpg

let the mud-slinging begin.

[Jeritron]

Hot matchup. The episodes of the Batman Animated Series dedicated to Clayface really made that character for me.
That show had such a way of taking minimal villains and making them top tier. Mr. Freeze, for one.

I always loved Sandman, and he gets tons of points for being one of Spidey's original foes from the old school era. He also gets style points for that sharp sweater.

Clayface is a bit more intimidating, I think. There's something about being beaten to death by clay that seems scarier than sand.

As for them actually having a fight, I think it's enough of an even match to render that aspect irrelevant to me. Pretty much perfectly matched.

I really think I'm more into Clayface. It's definitely because of those animated series episodes. I guess maybe that shouldn't count in the comic book clash, but I can't really seperate it from the character.

[Jeritron]

http://cdn3.ioffer.com/img/item/348/683/96/10d1_1.JPG

I also had this toy as a pip, and loved it. That's probably effecting my vote on some level

[mitchables]

Hot matchup. The episodes of the Batman Animated Series dedicated to Clayface really made that character for me.
That show had such a way of taking minimal villains and making them top tier. Mr. Freeze, for one.

I always loved Sandman, and he gets tons of points for being one of Spidey's original foes from the old school era. He also gets style points for that sharp sweater.

Clayface is a bit more intimidating, I think. There's something about being beaten to death by clay that seems scarier than sand.

As for them actually having a fight, I think it's enough of an even match to render that aspect irrelevant to me. Pretty much perfectly matched.

I really think I'm more into Clayface. It's definitely because of those animated series episodes. I guess maybe that shouldn't count in the comic book clash, but I can't really seperate it from the character.

yeah the batman animated series was amazing for turning shithouse villains into credible ones.

i always got the feeling that clayface would be more... solid than sandman. like, getting hit with a crapload of sand doesn't seem like it would hurt as much as being hit with solid clay. but sandman seems to still punch holes through buildings without too much trouble and maintains form so obviously he can super-compress the sand somehow into an essentially solid object.

however, sandman is vulnerable to water. even on the animated series, he doesn't like going through the sewers because it turns his legs to mud. clayface already is mud, and has the control over his form that sandman possesses over his in his dry form, and for that reason, i'm gonna say it gives him the edge. all other things being equal it's a fairly tight battle, but if a rainstorm started up in the middle of it, things would go to pieces pretty quickly for marko.

winner: clayface.

[Skippord]

if they were fighting near fire I would go with sandman
if they were fighting near water I would go with clayface

since there are more places that are filled with water than fire I will go with clayface

[mitchables]

why would fire advantage sandman exactly?

[Jeritron]

why would fire advantage sandman exactly?

http://www.pixelperfectdigital.com/free_stock_photos/data/524/medium/010608_clay_pot.jpg

[KIRA]

Gonna go with clayface I was gonna go with weaknesses apparently I'm not the only one who looked at it from that perspective:)


Wait I remember water being touted as one of clayfaces weaknesses as well in that it made him unstable and eventually dissolved him


Mitchables:fire hardens clay

beat me to it

[mitchables]

http://www.pixelperfectdigital.com/free_stock_photos/data/524/medium/010608_clay_pot.jpg

http://www.h-e-d.co.uk/images/shot-glass-drinking.jpg

[mitchables]

obviously not as easily, though.

[mitchables]

also, clayface is not "clay" in the strictest sense of the word. i don't think he bakes near fire.

[Jeritron]

That is a good point. Green Goblin used his glider jets on Sandman in the film, and it damaged him.
I'm not sure if they've ever done that in the comics. Seeing as how he's been an active villain since the 60s, they probably have.

[KIRA]

not sure if its true in the comic but another worthwhile note IMO in BATMAN TAS Clay face was able to change the physical properties (in his hands at least) to a metallic material

[mitchables]

hmm, apparently sandman voluntarily can turn into glass.

"In time Sandman discovers—starting with his hands—his body can transform into glass (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glass) and that he can reverse that effect."

however, it is suggested he can also involuntarily be made that way.

"Doctor Octopus coerced him to rejoin Sinister Six, but he turned against the clan, whose leader, Doctor Octopus, turned him into glass for his treason."

however again:

"Temperature does alter the Sandman. At 3,400 Fahrenheit his body turns into glass, also a form he can control. Unlike Sandman's fast transformation from sand to glass, his transformation from glass to sand takes time."

not sure how that changes things.

[mitchables]

not sure if its true in the comic but another worthwhile note IMO in BATMAN TAS Clay face was able to change the physical properties (in his hands at least) to a metallic material

i think he makes it just appear that way. the hands themselves are still made of living mud.

meanwhile the notion i raised about clayface being mud instead of clay also negates his advantage during a rainstorm because i remember in the animated series bats and clayface fought during a storm and he absorbed more rain than his body could handle and was unable to keep his form.

[Lock Jaw]

Preston Payne is this Clayface: http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/answer37.jpg

Who while looks goofy, is actually pretty cool. Check out Batman Annual #11 written by Alan Moore.

Anyways... yeah... if they were fighting, it would probably be a pretty even match.

Clayface I probably think makes a cooler villain.

[Jeritron]

The problem with debating comic book character abilities is that different stories and writers have done different things with the characters. After 30 or 40 years, a character has had it's abilities added to, or subtracted from, in order to serve the story trying to be told.
Citing certain instances from specific stories becomes difficult, becuase there's always another example that may contradict it.
That's why I try to stick with the basic traits that stay the same throughout the years, and in different forms of media.

[mitchables]

Preston Payne is this Clayface: http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/answer37.jpg

Who while looks goofy, is actually pretty cool. Check out Batman Annual #11 written by Alan Moore.

Anyways... yeah... if they were fighting, it would probably be a pretty even match.

Clayface I probably think makes a cooler villain.

he doesn't wear that exo-skeleton all the time though. whatever, pick your clayface then. cassius payne, basil karlo, whoever you like :P

[LuigiD]

Surprised so many people went with Clayface. I have always seen Sandman as a top contender that doesn't have shit together. His powers have greatly evolved over the years as well. Last time I saw him in the Gaunlet series, he learned how to make copies of himself.

[thedamndest]

I had no idea there were so many Clayfaces until now.

Clayface definitely has an advantage in that he can turn into anyone and then show up and blast Sandman in the face with whatever kind of anti-Sandman gun he might have access to. I feel like in a hand-to-hand situation he wouldn't make it as there have been eight Clayfaces and none of them could beat Batman. Seems like he isn't actually much of a fighter.

[Lock Jaw]

he doesn't wear that exo-skeleton all the time though. whatever, pick your clayface then. cassius payne, basil karlo, whoever you like :P

I think that one DOES wear that exoskeleton all the time.

Not important though. What Jeritron says it correct.

[Jeritron]

Seems like he isn't actually much of a fighter.

http://clearnet.co.nz/assets/images/ign/news/996668/CLAY_FIGHTER_GENESIS_BOX_FRONTboxart_160w.jpg

[thedamndest]

I'm bad, I'm cool, I know I'm cool.

[Lock Jaw]

Surprised so many people went with Clayface. I have always seen Sandman as a top contender that doesn't have shit together. His powers have greatly evolved over the years as well. Last time I saw him in the Gaunlet series, he learned how to make copies of himself.

My choice was probably heavily influenced by recently catching the Clayface origin episode of Batman: The Animated Series on TV.

[.44 Magdalene]

Sandman is stronger than most Clayfaces and smarter than all of them. Transforming into other people isn't going to get much of an edge up on Sandman--he has very few people that could be used like that, he keeps them away from his villainy to where Clayface couldn't possibly know who they are, and even in the bizarre circumstances that Clayface somehow finds someone worth turning into--well, Sandman's hung out with the Chameleon plenty of times. Chances are pretty decent that Sandman might just see this shit coming.

Say what you will about Sandman's weaknesses versus Clayface's, but there's only been one Sandman for the eight+ Clayfaces to roll up, die, and get replaced just as easily.

[Jeritron]

My choice was probably heavily influenced by recently catching the Clayface origin episode of Batman: The Animated Series on TV.

What is this choice you speak of? You have not voted in the poll, so you are full of shit

[Kane Knight]

The original description seemed to be who we liked more, and I voted Sandman accordingly. Guy had a lot of depth of character while still being consistent. Plus, my Dad had a metric fuckton of Spider-Man comics, which colours my nostalgia glasses.

That is what this is, right? Not who would win, as others are arguing?

[Jeritron]

I think it's whatever criteria you choose to apply. I voted based on which character I liked more, as I highlighted in my initial post. I started discussing the fight for shits and gigs

[KIRA]

Sandman is stronger than most Clayfaces and smarter than all of them. Transforming into other people isn't going to get much of an edge up on Sandman--he has very few people that could be used like that, he keeps them away from his villainy to where Clayface couldn't possibly know who they are, and even in the bizarre circumstances that Clayface somehow finds someone worth turning into--well, Sandman's hung out with the Chameleon plenty of times. Chances are pretty decent that Sandman might just see this shit coming.

Say what you will about Sandman's weaknesses versus Clayface's, but there's only been one Sandman for the eight+ Clayfaces to roll up, die, and get
replaced just as easily.


Actually most of the Clayfaces in their former lives were notably intelligent

as I recall one of them was even a scientist

[mitchables]

I think that one DOES wear that exoskeleton all the time.

Not important though. What Jeritron says it correct.

you're right, but because we're fanboys and you know we're wired like this, preston payne sans exoskeleton:

http://users.tpg.com.au/rywa01//cfj.jpg

[mitchables]

The original description seemed to be who we liked more, and I voted Sandman accordingly. Guy had a lot of depth of character while still being consistent. Plus, my Dad had a metric fuckton of Spider-Man comics, which colours my nostalgia glasses.

That is what this is, right? Not who would win, as others are arguing?

it's kind of either/or. my competitions are less about the rules than the discussion. if people want to discuss who would win, that's fine. if they want to say who they like more and why that's the case, that's fine too. the two aren't necessarily mutually exclusive, either.

[Lock Jaw]

you're right, but because we're fanboys and you know we're wired like this, preston payne sans exoskeleton:

http://users.tpg.com.au/rywa01//cfj.jpg

Totally a recent change. It says it right there that he got mutated by Prometheus.


Also, I thought I did vote. Apologies to Jeritron, whose sensibilities I have offended.

[mitchables]

pffft, recent or not, it happened. :mad: anyway, he was the clayface i most recently read about (because of cry for justice), so that's why he was named as the clayface in the original post. but yeah, i guess so many people have been "clayface", with such similar powers, it doesn't really matter. i didn't mean to pick the one who had a career in an exoskeleton.

[Downunder]

Sandman, because I've never heard of Clayface

[Boondock Saint]

Ugh @ Cry for Justice

[mitchables]

yeah i wasn't thrilled by it. they were the vengeance league. hal and ollie suffered for it. the art was the major redeeming factor.

[Skippord]

alright fine

if they were fighting near a kiln I would go with Sandman

[Vastardikai]

sandman by flying into Clayface's nostrils and hardening: Suffocating the son of a bitch.

[Kane Knight]

you're right, but because we're fanboys and you know we're wired like this, preston payne sans exoskeleton:

http://users.tpg.com.au/rywa01//cfj.jpg

God, I hate the art on that page.

[Rammsteinmad]

Sandman.

For the record I'm voting for who I like more. Dunno who'd win a fight because there have been some interesting arguments for both people winning.

[mitchables]

God, I hate the art on that page.

why?

[BigDaddyCool]

I'm not feeling this one as much.

[Jeritron]

Totally a recent change. It says it right there that he got mutated by Prometheus.


Also, I thought I did vote. Apologies to Jeritron, whose sensibilities I have offended.

Someday I will find it in my heart to forgive you

[mitchables]

I'm not feeling this one as much.

probably because you, your friends and kane knight were not talking about it recently.

[BigDaddyCool]

Possibly, and possibly because these are both b or c-list villians at best.

[Kane Knight]

probably because you, your friend and kane knight were not talking about it recently.