Are video games art?

[BigDaddyCool]

I'm moving this discussion out of the "News" thread and into its own so it doesn't just get lost in the shuffle. I seem to have hit a nerve with a couple of people by saying I don't accept videos, the media as a whole, as art. I then got half thoughts on yes they are or told to shut up because of fan boy rage.

Now first off I believe the only reason passions about video games as art are only running high because of that legislation in California, and even I am willing to call video games as art to get video games the same protection as movies or whatever.

Also I'm not saying video games are not artistic in certain areas, and I'm not saying people don't pour hard work into the games being produced.

I am saying the media, as a whole is not art. I will accept a single video game can be art, I have just yet too see it, I hear good things about Shadows of the Colossal.

So to even have this discussion, we have to define what we mean when we say art. What is art? I've heard it is a blanket statement for anything at is creative, but I don't really accept that so easily. Because then anything could be viewed as art if these is an ounce of creativity or ingenuity and the word loses meaning. I believe that is the basis for what can be art, but it has to be more. I believe there needs to be a respect for the work as well. If it is a joke, or just a device solely to make money or accomplish some petty goal, it loses credibility. Also it has to be something most people outside the creative media can appreciate. They average joe can hear Mozart and recognize there is something there, so art. Most people can look at Picasso and recognize it is good without someone telling them it is good.

I will flat out say the media of video games has not met those criteria, and I do not believe a single video game has yet ether, though some are getting close.

Discuss

[Extreme Angle]

Depends on the game tbh, A sports game or music game I wouldn't consider to be 'Art'.
Games like Street Fighter, are definitely Art.
Just look at it...

[BigDaddyCool]

Just look at it, is not an argument.

And you recognize sports and music games aren't art, how are they not art and street fighter is? Street Fighter is like a sports game, if a UFC game isn't art because it is sports, how is Street Fighter art when they are both fighting games? Also how is a music game (music which is an artistic genre) considered less artist that Street Fighter?

[El Fangel]

Creating a visualization of an idea is art.

[BigDaddyCool]

Fagel, I'm not saying you are wrong, but I want to ask, is music art because it is not visual.

[Kane Knight]

Could someone not retarded have made this thread?

I've seen the stupid shit you've said on this before, and it's trite and baseless.

BDC discussing the merits of games as art is like a shit beetle discussing finer cuisine or D Mac discussing the merits of musical artistry.

[BigDaddyCool]

So enlighten me or quit trolling.

[Kane Knight]

I've said it before. You know the score, so don't pretend otherwise. It's dishonest and in itself trolling.

[BigDaddyCool]

How am I being dishonest? By posting full thoughts and not just sitting back and mocking?

[RoXer]

I seem to have hit a nerve with a couple of people by saying I don't accept videos, the media as a whole, as art. I then got half thoughts on yes they are or told to shut up because of fan boy rage.

Fignuts?

[BigDaddyCool]

Fignuts was one, Blitz was another, he neg repped me instead of giving any argument.

[Kane Knight]

Don't take Figgy too seriously. He's completely ridiculous.

"brah."

[BigDaddyCool]

I just want to have a discussion about art and video games. Instead of who has nicer tits, Cammy or Chung Li.

[dronepool]

It might depend on the video game, not sure. Video games are mass produced entertainment that use art, I guess.


"Art, to me, is a question. It should never be an answer.”

[BigDaddyCool]

Ok, I'll buy that. Now dronepool, you are clearly into comics. Would you say the "Art is a question" remark works for comics as well? I do believe some comic are art, but not all.

[dronepool]

It could be art to one person and garbage to another. I'm sure most art in comics is done by artists who love doing it not because they have to draw, so if they're passionate about it and the comic art creates a reaction, they served their purpose.

Art isn't an answer, it's a question or a statement.

[BigDaddyCool]

I was referring to the entire book, not just the drawing in a single panel.

[dronepool]

The entire concept of a comic book? Sure. It's sequential story telling.

[BigDaddyCool]

So is every comic art too you?

[Blitz]

Fignuts was one, Blitz was another, he neg repped me instead of giving any argument.
I neg repped you because you're clearly trolling. The definition of art you give in this thread reinforces that nicely. That, or you actually are this dumb. It's sort of a toss up at this point.

[Miotch]

BDC, do you consider film, as a genre, art? If so it's through story telling and invoking question and thought.

I'd be shocked if you said no, so I'll just follow the question up with my rebuttal. Art can be many things. It can be in audio format, visual format, in the form of a taste. In MY opinion art is something that stimulates the senses and thought processes at the same time. It can tell a story. It may or may not have a clear focal point. It may be obvious or subtle. In this sense I would have to say that yes, video games can be art.

[dronepool]

So is every comic art too you?

It's an art form, yeah. Just because it's art doesn't mean I care about every comic out there, but comics combine literature which is an art form and sequential pictures. Therefore creating a new and artistic way of telling a story.

Miotch nailed it.

[BigDaddyCool]

BDC, do you consider film, as a genre, art? If so it's through story telling and invoking question and thought.

I'd be shocked if you said no, so I'll just follow the question up with my rebuttal. Art can be many things. It can be in audio format, visual format, in the form of a taste. In MY opinion art is something that stimulates the senses and thought processes at the same time. It can tell a story. It may or may not have a clear focal point. It may be obvious or subtle. In this sense I would have to say that yes, video games can be art.

I don't consider all movies art, but some cleary are. My question is have you ever consider a tv show as art. Also I have said many time video games have potential to be art.

[BigDaddyCool]

I neg repped you because you're clearly trolling. The definition of art you give in this thread reinforces that nicely. That, or you actually are this dumb. It's sort of a toss up at this point.

Blitz, you are dumb and can't string valid arguments together ever. All you ever seem to do is call people trolls when you disagree. How about instead of just going with the side that has the most people agreeing you put your mind to work and give a valid argument. I am not trolling here, I just wanted to have a conversation that is more than EA sucks or Cammy is hot.

[Kane Knight]

Stop trolling, dick.

[BigDaddyCool]

I love how asking for a conversation is now trolling and post 3 words is not.

[Kane Knight]

by your logic, Heyman's not a troll, and his "conversations" about your fatass wife were legit.

:)

[illmatic]

ART (Noun)

1. Human effort to imitate, supplement, alter, or counteract the work of nature.

2. The conscious production or arrangement of sounds, colors, forms, movements, or other elements in a manner that affects the sense of beauty, specifically the production of the beautiful in a graphic or plastic medium.
The study of these activities.
The product of these activities; human works of beauty considered as a group.

3. High quality of conception or execution, as found in works of beauty; aesthetic value.

4. A field or category of art, such as music, ballet, or literature.

5. A nonscientific branch of learning; one of the liberal arts.

6.

a) A system of principles and methods employed in the performance of a set of activities: the art of building.

b) A trade or craft that applies such a system of principles and methods: the art of the lexicographer.

7.

a) Skill that is attained by study, practice, or observation: the art of the baker; the blacksmith's art.

b) Skill arising from the exercise of intuitive faculties: "Self-criticism is an art not many are qualified to practice" (Joyce Carol Oates).

8.

a) arts Artful devices, stratagems, and tricks.

b) Artful contrivance; cunning.


9. Printing Illustrative material.

[illmatic]

It might depend on the video game, not sure. Video games are mass produced entertainment that use art, I guess.


"Art, to me, is a question. It should never be an answer.”
:y:

[BigDaddyCool]

by your logic, Heyman's not a troll, and his "conversations" about your fatass wife were legit.

:)
Those were personal attack in the guise as conversation. I'm interested in people opinion on the topic and I'm not personally attacking anyone by saying I don't think the genre of video games is art in and of itself.

[Kane Knight]

You're not interested in the topic, you're rehashing the same troll you trolled on another site with people here.

When they were sufficiently trolled, you made a thread to further troll a broader base.

You weren't interested in actually discussing it with me, and that was while you were simultaneously trolling people. Thinly veiling a troll under the guise of conversation doesn't make it less trollish, and doing it poorly just means you probably shouldn't be bothered when people see through it.

But you already know you're not intererested in legitimate discussion. You made that clear before you trolled the Escapist. :)

And as such, I don't need to explain it to you, but since you really insist on playing the "but I'm really interested" card, I might as well play the "no, no you're not you fucking liar" card.

You're not really different from Heyman in that your statements are legit. You're different from Heyman in that nobody really burns him with his own medicine like he did you. :)

[El Fangel]

Fagel, I'm not saying you are wrong, but I want to ask, is music art because it is not visual.

Music is about interpretation of what the singer is telling you by singing the lyrics written by the writer.

[BigDaddyCool]

about time you got back to that, fangel. ;)

[BigDaddyCool]

kk, according to you, everyone on this site is a lying troll. why do you even bother coming?

[El Fangel]

He can't stop coming because he is always a jerk off.

[Blitz]

Blitz, you are dumb and can't string valid arguments together ever. All you ever seem to do is call people trolls when you disagree. How about instead of just going with the side that has the most people agreeing you put your mind to work and give a valid argument. I am not trolling here, I just wanted to have a conversation that is more than EA sucks or Cammy is hot.
Fine. I'll humour you. To begin with, every definition of art is incredibly nebulous. We will never have a concrete definition since everyone has their own opinion. So right away, your blanket statement that video games are not art is idiotic. That should be the end of it right there, but fine, I'll humour you further and discuss your opinion of what constitutes art.

According to you, the definition of art is twofold. 1) art must have a respect for itself and not just be about making money or "being a joke", and 2) Art must be accessible to anyone. Now, it's pretty much impossible to discuss art without first asking what you personally consider art. Your logic makes no sense. You consider some movies art, but seemingly not TV shows. What's the difference, besides slight format changes? Is an Adam Sandler movie more artistic than any or all episodes of The Sopranos simply by virtue of being a movie? What are some movies that you consider art? What are some other things that you consider art, for that matter?

According to your theory, all video games were designed simply to make money (I'm going to ignore the part about being a "joke", because I don't know how you mean that), and are inaccessible to the average person (since video games are not art, and that is your definition of art). This is stupid on a number of levels. First of all, how on Earth are you sure what was solely designed to make money? How about games like Shadow of the Colossus, or Ico, or Okami, or Heavy Rain? All high concept games, risky game ideas. You're saying that these ideas were all for the sake of making money? If that was the case, why didn't the designers just design a knock off of Call of Duty or Rock Band or something?

Now your second tenet of art: accessibility. This is where I was sure you were trolling. Video games are incredibly accessible. How can you say they're not? Like, do you find Mario games overly complicated? Does Pac Man tax your brain a little too much? Look at the Wii, a system that is as successful as it is largely because it draws in people who aren't gamers. Even more complicated games, like RPGs can be learned relatively easily and quickly. And ah yes, classical music, clearly easily accesible, populist art. Which is why Justin Bieber probably sold more than the latest Bach, Mozart, and Beethoven recordings. Combined. In one day.

I mean Jesus, what is this definition of art? Is a kid playing soccer at recess art? He's not doing it for money, and anyone can join him or merely look and know what is going on. You're like "the media as a whole is not art, but some games have come close". What is that? Like, "oh, this game is so close to being art, but the controls are a little bit too tricky, and I detect a faint whiff of commerce in the design. Sigh, maybe next time." Come on.

[El Fangel]

An exerpt from a conversation I am having with, BDC. And also why I'm not furthering the conversation.

Josh says:
is a crossword puzzle from the new york times art?
Jesus H. Christ says:
No, its a computer generated brain stimulator
Josh says:
ok, maybe I'm confused, were you saying mindsweeper is art or were your agree with me?
Jesus H. Christ says:
minesweeper is art
Josh says:
How is minesweeper art and the new york times crossword puzzle not art? The times crossword puzzle is not computer generated.
Jesus H. Christ says:
someone put an image or thought into a visualization for everyone else, that in essense is art.
Computers dont have thoughts, we MAKE them think.

[BigDaddyCool]

Wow Blitz, way to put words in my mouth. I never said all video games are made to make video games and I never said video game are inaccessible. In fact, the accessibility wasn't even part of my point. I said you don't need someone telling you Mozart is art. I don't know where you got that from.

I also don't know what you mean by a kid play soccer at recess. In fact, in your big spazz out rant has completely missed understood every point I've made. Perhaps I could be clearer, but I've been able to communicate my ideas effectively with other member of this board, so I don't know what to tell you man. I'm not going to take the time to break apart everything you said and re-explain what I tried to say.

I will how ever mention I've brought up Shadows of the Colossus, while I have never played it, it has had good reviews. And that one what I meant some have gotten close. But I don't know that for myself.

[Fignuts]

The way BDC defines art is fine. No one can tell him he is wrong for looking at it that way, just like he can't tell us we are wrong for defining art the way we do.

This is why any argument about the definition is a waste of time. As people have stated in this thread a hundred times, everyone has their own interpretation of what art is. That is a large part of what makes art great.

That said, how someone interprets art, has a lot to do with who that person is as a human being. Their definition is deeply tied to who they are, so even if you wanted to be stubborn and try to argue with them about what art is, they are likely too deeply attached to their own definition to ever change.

Point is, it doesn't matter what anybody else thinks about what is and isn't art. Just enjoy art the way you see fit.

[BigDaddyCool]

I think that is an wonderful point figgy, not because you are validating me, but because there is truth to the no accounting for taste argument. I guess to me there are different levels of art. And when I call something art, I want it to mean something more.

[mitch_h]

I don't know why art has to be placed on a pedestal, there can be "bad art". Also, I would rather watch a Raptors game (not art) than watch one of the Transformers movies(bad art).

[OssMan]

Fagel, I'm not saying you are wrong, but I want to ask, is music art because it is not visual.
Does a blind man trip if he drops acid? What the hell kind of a question is that. Since when does something have to be visual to be beautiful.

[bigdaddysuperfreak]

I believe that the video games themselves are not art but do contain examples of art. Some of the cut scenes from the final fantasy series are very artistic but the battle sequences are not. The same principles apply to movies in which some scenes may be artistic and others are not.

[Kane Knight]

kk, according to you, everyone on this site is a lying troll. why do you even bother coming?

Oh dear, you've resorted to lying again.

[Kane Knight]

Point is, it doesn't matter what anybody else thinks about what is and isn't art. Just enjoy art the way you see fit.

The only reason this is a hot button issue right now is that Schwarzenegger and his state are trying to create a free speech exception by saying games aren't really art.

After all, obscenity only counts if there is no scientific, artistic, or social value. And they want to be able to say "but there's no artistic value, so it's obscene, so we can ban it."

This is particularly hypocritical because most Schwarzenegger movies have less artistic value than your average porno, but that's another story entirely.

The problem, as I say, is that there's a third side here that brought it up. We can whack philosophical until we're blue in the balls, talk about the inherrent nature of art, etc., but this is only really a point of contention because if they are not art, they can and will be restricted, and legally under the provisions of free speech as understood by obscenity.

So enjoy what you want, just remember that there's a real lawsuit out there that could (not will) redefine the status of the games medium. To that end, it does matter what others say. It even matters what shlubs like BDC say, because popular support is a big deal when it comes to whether these remain legal issues.

Populism is dumb, but it does dictate policy.

But enough verbal masturbation.

[Snowden]

First of all, for people interested in a really interesting discussion of videogames as art, give a look at this (http://www.newsweek.com/blogs/we-read-it/2010/06/18/extra-lives-why-video-games-matter.html) book. Really fantastic read.

So, truth be told I haven't read through the whole debate in this thread thus far, and therefore I apologize if I'm rehashing points.

I think it comes down to this: if you take film or literature as art, you have to accept that videogames are, or at least can progress to be, art as well. Both film and literature deal primarily with the crafting of a story, be it fiction or nonfiction. For the most part, videogames do much the same thing, albeit at times in roundabout and minimalist manner (Mario, Street Fighter).

I think, at times, people get lost in just the simple narrative of the games, and when they see some kind of trite, shallow plot, they dismiss the medium as non-artistic. However, I think you have to look at the "grammar" of games in a sense, the manner in which they play, as a means to explicating their artistic merit. Much like the greatest authors tell not only fantastic stories, but display these stories in lucid prose, and great films not only track a plot but have wonderful cinematography, the way the game plays is in and of itself a facet of the art.

Think of playing a fighting game, experiencing the absolute struggle of being on the hardest possible difficulty, grappling with an opponent who can time and counter every button press. At that moment, the game is conveying to you the tension and anxiety in that conflict by transferring those feelings to you. To convey this type of emotion while in the realm of storytelling is a large facet of art, much like a camera panning over the sweeping plains of Middle Earth captures in the viewer the same sense of awe that Frodo Baggins feels.

Of course, not each and every game is successful at creating a transcendent experience, much like most books and movies fail. However, they are still making the attempt to craft, and pull the purveyor into, a story outside of their own locus, and to evoke some sort of emotion from that. Gaming too is in its infancy...while the written word has been around for eons, and film has at least had 100 years to go at it, gaming is only now really reaching its 30th year of life. Thus, game developers are really only beginning to encapsulate the potential of an interactive medium.

The struggle, too, it seems is that it IS interactive, and the inherent assumption is that because it lacks full passivity, its not art? That, to me, is ludicrous...and in fact, an interactive medium has the potential to engage and capture those who partake in it in new and wholly unique ways, foreign to passive art forms.

Wow, word vomit there. Thoughts BDC?

[Kane Knight]

If trite, shallow plots aren't art, can we ban Transformers: RotF as obscenity?

Just sayin'.

[BigDaddyCool]

First of all, for people interested in a really interesting discussion of videogames as art, give a look at this (http://www.newsweek.com/blogs/we-read-it/2010/06/18/extra-lives-why-video-games-matter.html) book. Really fantastic read.

So, truth be told I haven't read through the whole debate in this thread thus far, and therefore I apologize if I'm rehashing points.

I think it comes down to this: if you take film or literature as art, you have to accept that videogames are, or at least can progress to be, art as well. Both film and literature deal primarily with the crafting of a story, be it fiction or nonfiction. For the most part, videogames do much the same thing, albeit at times in roundabout and minimalist manner (Mario, Street Fighter).

I think, at times, people get lost in just the simple narrative of the games, and when they see some kind of trite, shallow plot, they dismiss the medium as non-artistic. However, I think you have to look at the "grammar" of games in a sense, the manner in which they play, as a means to explicating their artistic merit. Much like the greatest authors tell not only fantastic stories, but display these stories in lucid prose, and great films not only track a plot but have wonderful cinematography, the way the game plays is in and of itself a facet of the art.

Think of playing a fighting game, experiencing the absolute struggle of being on the hardest possible difficulty, grappling with an opponent who can time and counter every button press. At that moment, the game is conveying to you the tension and anxiety in that conflict by transferring those feelings to you. To convey this type of emotion while in the realm of storytelling is a large facet of art, much like a camera panning over the sweeping plains of Middle Earth captures in the viewer the same sense of awe that Frodo Baggins feels.

Of course, not each and every game is successful at creating a transcendent experience, much like most books and movies fail. However, they are still making the attempt to craft, and pull the purveyor into, a story outside of their own locus, and to evoke some sort of emotion from that. Gaming too is in its infancy...while the written word has been around for eons, and film has at least had 100 years to go at it, gaming is only now really reaching its 30th year of life. Thus, game developers are really only beginning to encapsulate the potential of an interactive medium.

The struggle, too, it seems is that it IS interactive, and the inherent assumption is that because it lacks full passivity, its not art? That, to me, is ludicrous...and in fact, an interactive medium has the potential to engage and capture those who partake in it in new and wholly unique ways, foreign to passive art forms.

Wow, word vomit there. Thoughts BDC?

I think there are some very compelling points there. I do recognize video games can be art or have the potential just like any other media. I guess I just put art on a pedestal and don't recognize bad art as art. I guess that is the key difference.

[BigDaddyCool]

Creating a visualization of an idea is art.Fagel, I'm not saying you are wrong, but I want to ask, is music art because it is not visual.
Does a blind man trip if he drops acid? What the hell kind of a question is that. Since when does something have to be visual to be beautiful.


I was making a point that most people count music as art and it is not visual. So I believed the definition he gave was a little short. Of course music is art.

[Kane Knight]

Music is not art!

[Snowden]

I think there are some very compelling points there. I do recognize video games can be art or have the potential just like any other media. I guess I just put art on a pedestal and don't recognize bad art as art. I guess that is the key difference.

I don't think video games are "bad art" anymore though, can't really make broad generalizations. 10 years ago, sure...but now, I think games have really made a leap.

[BigDaddyCool]

Oh I wasn't saying video games are bad art either. Just idk, I don't think they are whAt I consider art. But I still like them and all.

[Snowden]

Completely fair. The beautiful thing about art is that its in the eye of the beholder. If you don't consider it art, that's your prerogative, much like I am wont to consider some modern "art" as art.

[BigDaddyCool]

I agree, smearing poop on canvas in the vague shape of the pope or chaining a dog to a poll and watching it starve to death is not art. I am glad we could have this talk.

[Kane Knight]

"What is art?" Should really only be argued in broad strokes. What people generally mean by it is "what is good art?"

It's kind of like saying "I don't like the Beach Boys, so they're not music."

But here we are. Again and again.

[Fignuts]

The Smithsonian is looking to put together an exhibit known as "The Art of Video Games." It will feature 80 games across different genres/eras. You can vote online right now at www.artofvideogames.org. I had a hard time choosing a few (like MM2 vs. SMB3 vs. Metroid) but it was fun to vote on some Atari 2600 and Commodore 64 games.

[BigDaddyCool]

Fuck, if the Smithsonian is doing it, I guess that shuts me up. I just got pwned

[Kane Knight]

Burned by the Gummit.

[BigDaddyCool]

Now if the smithsonian says it is art... What does that mean for California.

[BigDaddyCool]

I don't know which thread to put this in...might post it in both. Anyhow one thing I think of is like RTS games and turn based strategie games (TBS games looked wierd) are always commented on that they play like a spreadsheet. Speaking as an accountant that likes the Civ series and is working on a spreadsheet currently, those are tools, not art. And if a game plays like a tool, it is hard to say it is art. Which is why I keep saying the media as a whole is not art. But a game might be.

[Kane Knight]

Now if the smithsonian says it is art... What does that mean for California.

Absolutely nothing.

Also, to your second retarded point, art can be practical and functional. A semblence to a spreadsheet does not preclude art.

Many of those same games have creative visual expressions, stories, and characters. Even if it were true they operate like a spreadsheet, that's kind of like saying you can't call it art if it uses letters because letters are also used for subpoenas.

"This painting has the same testure as sand. Sand makes glass. Glass makes windows. Windows are not art."

[BigDaddyCool]

I do not believe you analogy captures what I was saying. Instead of commenting on the texture of the paint, it would be more like saying this novel reads like a technical manual, technical manuals aren't art. That painting looks like a side of a barn, the side of a barn isn't art. That sound just sounds like a explosion in a instrument store.

[Kane Knight]

Except it's not "reading" like a technical manual, because "reading" is a story mechanic.

Hey, if you don't like my analogy, at least use a fair analogy.

When you come down to it, the "spreadsheet" argument can be used for most game genres. The underlying structure may be mechanical under the "optimum" circumstances do not set the sum of the game. There is generally an optimal path within any game structure, even outside of computer games. Only mutants and Koreans play RTS like that, though.

Given the right motivation you can strip the story and even the fun out of a game, the same way you can strip the beauty out of prose by analysing it. But games are more than the sum of their mechanics in the same way buildings are more than the sum of their construction process and music is more than the sum of a series of intervals and movements.

I'm still nto sure why I'm trying to argue this with you, since you've been arguing in bad faith, but whatever. Return to your bullshit, I guess.

[BigDaddyCool]

tl;dr

plus I was just saying saying it plays like a spreadsheet doesn't put the nail in the coffin saying this isn't art. But it is a knock against as art. But whatever, you think I'm arguing in bad faith and it doesn't matter what I say.