John Cena vs. JBL WrestleMania 21

[#1-norm-fan]

I don't think this match gets enough credit for beginning it's era. No one really mentions it anymore. Sure, as a wrestling match, it may have been sub-par and then outdone by an amazing match between the two one month later but especially if you couple those two matches together, how huge were they in the wide-view of wrestling history?

[Lock Jaw]

WM21 in general started a new "era". Both Cena and Batista won the belts, starting an age of Cena/Bats ruling the world.

This year we have two young and fresh heels in the main events. COULD THIS BE THE DAWNING OF A NEW AGE?!!

[#1-norm-fan]

Nah

[Lara Emily]

You could pint point this as a start of a terrible era. It's around this time I started losing interest in wrestling.

[#1-norm-fan]

Yet 6 years later, you haven't stopped watching. Bad or not, it's still a major part of the history.

[Lock Jaw]

WWE clearly needs to create some new mega-heels though. Cena and Batista became the faces of this new era... when they dethroned long-reigning mega-heel champions in JBL/HHH.

New faces can't get as over without someone immense, powerful, and evil to bring down.

[#1-norm-fan]

They tried with Sheamus... and Jack Swagger...

Apparently there's more to it though than "Let's throw a title on him. Huh? Huh?"

[Emperor Smeat]

I think the Mania the year before was the real start because that is when Cena started his rise to eventual champion and star of the WWE a year later. The whole rapper character with custom title belts and very popular with the crowd had its origins with his US title reign and carried over the next year against JBL.

It is similar to Stone Cold's rise actually starting a year earlier with Stone Cold vs Bret Hart than the more famous HBK vs Stone Cold title match the following year.

[#1-norm-fan]

Yeah but I don't think the beginning is actually the important part. It's more of what defines it. Cena's rise may have began the year before in winning the US Title but I feel like the the DEFINING moment should be looked at as the JBL matches. It's just strange to me how they get glossed over.

Hogan's rise didn't BEGIN with slamming Andre for example but it's the defining moment. Everything before that was just a precursor.

[Jeritron]

Miz isn't going to be a mega heel, I don't think. He is, however, probably going to be a mega player. His character is closer to Edge and Jericho. And all of the indicators point to Vince being very high on him in the mold of a model superstar.

I think Del Rio could very well be the hateable, but so damn capable heel that gets by not only on cheating, but on pure skill.
See Kurt Angle.

Wade Barrett doesn't need much explaining. He could be a monster heel champion at the flip of a switch. I think people are fretting over him and Sheamus' de-push.
It's clear that the WWE just made an audible and went with HHH/Taker because they felt they needed a big name match to draw in older/casual fans.
That obviously scraps what was planned for them.

In the spring, I fully expect to see them back on track to greatness. Particularly Barrett.

Sheamus shot to the top, and I totally enjoy him working with the likes of Morrison and Bryan now. I welcome more of that this year, mixed in with world title programs which he needs to get back to.
I think a face turn actually might not be too far off for him. Maybe against The Miz.

[Damian Rey]

The problem WWE has ran into lately in building new faces is the creative team getting 100% behind them. Last year, even though Sheamus dropped the belt at EC, he was instantly inserted into a very hot Mania feud with Triple H, and, IMO, had the best match not involving Taker and HBK.

After he took out H a month later, things were looking up for Sheamus. The he got the belt and got fed to Orton after fluking out some wins.

Swagger just seemed to get a huge demotion after dropping the title. But having him in a feud that's had its seeds planted since late last year is a step in the right direction.

The Miz has been booked pretty well. Unlike Sheamus, who's suppossed to be a monster, he's a scum bag heel who's sleazed his way through title defense after title defense, and is now healdining Mania. I don't think anyone thought for a second WWE would let Miz ride with the title into Mania, but alas.

Back to the topic at hand...I thought the Cena/JBL match was solid. I never expected a wrestling clinic, but it was passable. Crowd was pretty dead, and I think that can be attributed to having to follow a good Orton/Taker match, and of course, Angle/HBK.

[#1-norm-fan]

I can't really see anyone being a mega-heel right now. Especially if your definition of mega-heel doesn't include Jericho or Edge. I mean, how many real mega-heels have there been in the history of wrestling? As far as heels who have been able to single-handedly get faces over as mega-faces? A handful.

[Jeritron]

The problem WWE has ran into lately in building new faces is the creative team getting 100% behind them. Last year, even though Sheamus dropped the belt at EC, he was instantly inserted into a very hot Mania feud with Triple H, and, IMO, had the best match not involving Taker and HBK.

After he took out H a month later, things were looking up for Sheamus. The he got the belt and got fed to Orton after fluking out some wins.

Swagger just seemed to get a huge demotion after dropping the title. But having him in a feud that's had its seeds planted since late last year is a step in the right direction.

The Miz has been booked pretty well. Unlike Sheamus, who's suppossed to be a monster, he's a scum bag heel who's sleazed his way through title defense after title defense, and is now healdining Mania. I don't think anyone thought for a second WWE would let Miz ride with the title into Mania, but alas.

Back to the topic at hand...I thought the Cena/JBL match was solid. I never expected a wrestling clinic, but it was passable. Crowd was pretty dead, and I think that can be attributed to having to follow a good Orton/Taker match, and of course, Angle/HBK.


I always was dissapointed by the JBL/Cena match, because it was clearly secondary to the Batista title change.
Granted, that storyline was much hottter and had to main event. And HHH was much more qualified to be passing said torch.

It just felt a little strange to see both guys get their first title, and one clearly done in a much less "epic" manner.
Especially since the one understated was ultimately the most important.

The match with HHH the next year more or less was an unofficial correction on it.
Perhaps they should have even just held off at 21, and put Cena in a high profile non-title program that year.
Orton had Taker. Angle and HBK were busy making greatness. Hmm, I dunno.
Maybe somebody from MITB?
It also would have been great if Brock was still around as a potential opponent. I've always felt that Cena, Orton, Batista and Edge all would have benefitted from a much more natural and eased transition into the main event if Brock didn't blow out like he did.
The biggest struggles they faced early on, especially Cena and Orton, was not feeling forced as main eventers. It was hard not to do this when all their eggs were in a basket that quit.

[#1-norm-fan]

I actually agree with that. Holding off a year and having Cena-HHH be Cena's "I have arrived" party would have been huge.

Come to think of it, I remember most people thinking that a heel HHH was going to go over a face Cena that year. That's a rarity for a WrestleMania that could have been taken advantage of.

Having two main champions really fucked it all up the more I think of it. You can't have another real huge title change when there are two major titles.

[Damian Rey]

Miz isn't going to be a mega heel, I don't think. He is, however, probably going to be a mega player. His character is closer to Edge and Jericho. And all of the indicators point to Vince being very high on him in the mold of a model superstar.

I think Del Rio could very well be the hateable, but so damn capable heel that gets by not only on cheating, but on pure skill.
See Kurt Angle.

Wade Barrett doesn't need much explaining. He could be a monster heel champion at the flip of a switch. I think people are fretting over him and Sheamus' de-push.
It's clear that the WWE just made an audible and went with HHH/Taker because they felt they needed a big name match to draw in older/casual fans.
That obviously scraps what was planned for them.

In the spring, I fully expect to see them back on track to greatness. Particularly Barrett.

Sheamus shot to the top, and I totally enjoy him working with the likes of Morrison and Bryan now. I welcome more of that this year, mixed in with world title programs which he needs to get back to.
I think a face turn actually might not be too far off for him. Maybe against The Miz.

Disagree with Miz being a mega heel. I mean, he kind of already is. He's main eventing Mania against the company's biggest star in a feud that has also involved the company's former biggest star. I think the fact that Vince and co. are so comfortable with pushing Miz into Mania as champion, and have had him one up Cena the way he has, is a good indication for his future as a top guy.

I do agree with Barrett and Del Rio. Barrett's new group got put into a long term program with the Big Show, one of THE top, most over faces on SmackDown!. The title picture is a little clogged at the moment, and this is a great way to get Barrett meaningful face time against a very over face.

I loved the Sheamus/Morrison string of matches. Honestly, that was the best in ring work in Sheamus' short time with the company, IMO. I wish they would have went somewhere with the KOTR push, but like you said, there really wasn't a headline type match for Mania, so I see why they went with Taker/HHH instead of retreading last year. My only complaint with Sheamus' treatment is the complete 180 they take with the character once he wins the belt. He goes from dominant monster to coward heel champion. I don't know about a face turn yet. Still seems early, as I feel they still have some room for growth with heel Sheamus. But we will see. Love the idea of a Sheamus/Bryan match at Mania, if given time.

[Aguakate]

WWE clearly needs to create some new mega-heels though. Cena and Batista became the faces of this new era... when they dethroned long-reigning mega-heel champions in JBL/HHH.

New faces can't get as over without someone immense, powerful, and evil to bring down.

It's weird that right now, WWE has alot of young talent, young wrestlers who are getting their break not only to just wrestle, but become STARS...and alot of them (Dibiase, Swagger, Cody Rhodes, Kofi Kingston, just to name a few) have wrestling talent, good ability, but are bland in terms of charisma.

The one that really excelled has been Sheamus, who even though is getting buried right now (he may be just paying his dues after being so successful so quick...WWE might just be testing how he reacts to a slump), he really took the ball and ran with it.

[Jeritron]

Well, I guess I was thinking of mega heel in a different way. Sure, if you look at it that way he is.
I compared him to Edge and Jericho. They've been main eventing the biggest matches at the biggest events too.
I simply meant that his character is less of a dominant heel, and more of a cunning one.

I guess by mega heel I was thinking more along the lines of HHH and Angle. Someone who really gets built up to be toppled.

[Damian Rey]

I always was dissapointed by the JBL/Cena match, because it was clearly secondary to the Batista title change.
Granted, that storyline was much hottter and had to main event. And HHH was much more qualified to be passing said torch.

It just felt a little strange to see both guys get their first title, and one clearly done in a much less "epic" manner.
Especially since the one understated was ultimately the most important.

The match with HHH the next year more or less was an unofficial correction on it.
Perhaps they should have even just held off at 21, and put Cena in a high profile non-title program that year.
Orton had Taker. Angle and HBK were busy making greatness. Hmm, I dunno.
Maybe somebody from MITB?
It also would have been great if Brock was still around as a potential opponent. I've always felt that Cena, Orton, Batista and Edge all would have benefitted from a much more natural and eased transition into the main event if Brock didn't blow out like he did.
The biggest struggles they faced early on, especially Cena and Orton, was not feeling forced as main eventers. It was hard not to do this when all their eggs were in a basket that quit.

Agreed completely on Cena. Bats just felt ready for the Main Event. I've always felt they rushed Cena for the sake of rushing him. I'm not too sure what other main eventer they had on SD! that could have been placed into the match. I sometimes think that would have been a great time for Eddie to be reinserted into the top spot, and have his heel turn on Mysterio play out, as champion, over the summer.

I do think the Cena/HHH match was a recorrection, as Cena was immediately moved to Raw and made the face of the company after finishing his run with JBL. But like you said, with Brock gone, it all felt forced with Cena.

[Lara Emily]

Yet 6 years later, you haven't stopped watching. Bad or not, it's still a major part of the history.

Actually I did.


I stopped watching around this time and only started watching Raw again on the night after HIAC 2010

[Damian Rey]

Well, I guess I was thinking of mega heel in a different way. Sure, if you look at it that way he is.
I compared him to Edge and Jericho. They've been main eventing the biggest matches at the biggest events too.
I simply meant that his character is less of a dominant heel, and more of a cunning one.

I guess by mega heel I was thinking more along the lines of HHH and Angle. Someone who really gets built up to be toppled.

I think the Miz fits the build right now. He's constantly found a way to win his into Mania, and he has a lot of momentum. Of course, we all know he will do the job to Cena, but the build to his lost has been pretty solid. He has owned Randy Orton, clean or not, and has one upped Cena the last three weeks.

I think creative has done a pretty admirable job of building Miz up, only for him to finally get what's been coming to him and lose.

[Xero]

WM21 in general started a new "era". Both Cena and Batista won the belts, starting an age of Cena/Bats ruling the world.

This year we have two young and fresh heels in the main events. COULD THIS BE THE DAWNING OF A NEW AGE?!!

Honestly, it really is. The old guard (Attitude) is all but gone now, and we're now getting the push to the top with the likes of Sheamus, Barrett, Morrison, Miz and Del Rio. Say what you will about some of their pushes, but with a one or two month build I feel any of those guys could easily be seen as top guys, if they're not there already.

As I've said in the past, it's now becoming that guys like Cena, Edge and Orton are becoming the old guard, and we've been in a "New Generation" for a bit over a year, maybe two.

This is how I break down the eras, and there is a pattern.

WrestleMania/Hulkamania Era: 1984-1993 - The Hogan years. Everyone is pretty much established at this point as big deals, like Andre, Hogan, Piper, Savage, etc.

"New Generation": 1993-1997 - The old guard starts to wane away, and new guys start coming into the main event fold. A down time in the WWF, but we saw the rise of guys like Undertaker, Michaels, Hall, Nash, Foley, Austin, Triple H and Bret.

Attitude: 1997-2001: The New Generation becomes the focus. Austin, Taker, Triple H, Foley, etc.

Ruthless Aggression: 2003-2005 - Transition years, like the New Generation. Some of old guard starts to kind of fade out (Rock, Austin, etc) as we see the rise of guys like Edge, Cena, Batista, etc.

Cenamania Era: 2005-2009 - The years that Cena, Batista, and Orton completely dominated, with old guard like Chris Jericho and Triple H thrown into the mix.

Next Generation 2009-2011: Like the original New Generation, the Next Generation has an iffy product, but guys like Sheamus, Barret, Punk, Morrison, Miz, etc either are already or ready to make the leap into the main event, while the old guard is still there to an extent but starting to leave or wind down.

I honestly believe that 2011-2012 will be the birth of the next era in WWE. I honestly can't tell you what it's going to be like and how long it will last, especially with them "spicing up" the product at the moment, but I do think that by 2012 everyone I've listed will be considered top talent by most.

I do believe that we're headed towards a better product. I've been saying that for a while now, and it just keeps getting more likely to me. Unlike some people, who still shit on the product anyway. I've been one of the more outspoken and pessimistic ones against the product of the past, say, five years, and even I'm starting to see things getting better, despite some rocky booking.

[Jeritron]

Things turned a corner to me around Wrestlemania 24. That's when it started going uphill.

[Lara Emily]

Honestly, it really is. The old guard (Attitude) is all but gone now, and we're now getting the push to the top with the likes of Sheamus, Barrett, Morrison, Miz and Del Rio. Say what you will about some of their pushes, but with a one or two month build I feel any of those guys could easily be seen as top guys, if they're not there already.

As I've said in the past, it's now becoming that guys like Cena, Edge and Orton are becoming the old guard, and we've been in a "New Generation" for a bit over a year, maybe two.

This is how I break down the eras, and there is a pattern.

WrestleMania/Hulkamania Era: 1984-1993 - The Hogan years. Everyone is pretty much established at this point as big deals, like Andre, Hogan, Piper, Savage, etc.

"New Generation": 1993-1997 - The old guard starts to wane away, and new guys start coming into the main event fold. A down time in the WWF, but we saw the rise of guys like Undertaker, Michaels, Hall, Nash, Foley, Austin, Triple H and Bret.

Attitude: 1997-2001: The New Generation becomes the focus. Austin, Taker, Triple H, Foley, etc.

Ruthless Aggression: 2003-2005 - Transition years, like the New Generation. Some of old guard starts to kind of fade out (Rock, Austin, etc) as we see the rise of guys like Edge, Cena, Batista, etc.

Cenamania Era: 2005-2009 - The years that Cena, Batista, and Orton completely dominated, with old guard like Chris Jericho and Triple H thrown into the mix.

Next Generation 2009-2011: Like the original New Generation, the Next Generation has an iffy product, but guys like Sheamus, Barret, Punk, Morrison, Miz, etc either are already or ready to make the leap into the main event, while the old guard is still there to an extent but starting to leave or wind down.

I honestly believe that 2011-2012 will be the birth of the next era in WWE. I honestly can't tell you what it's going to be like and how long it will last, especially with them "spicing up" the product at the moment, but I do think that by 2012 everyone I've listed will be considered top talent by most.

I do believe that we're headed towards a better product. I've been saying that for a while now, and it just keeps getting more likely to me. Unlike some people, who still shit on the product anyway. I've been one of the more outspoken and pessimistic ones against the product of the past, say, five years, and even I'm starting to see things getting better, despite some rocky booking.

All this. Hell the fact that I'm back to watching on a regular basis should indicate an upward swing, whether it lasts remains to be seen but the product since the debut of Nexus (give or take a few really bad Raws here or there, and the build up to this Mania is kinda meh but overall) has been at a level of entertainment unseen since 2004

[#1-norm-fan]

I don't have a lot of faith based just on the writing. I feel like John Morrison is the only real new mega-star I can see coming out of this era right now and they're already screwing it up. He'll continue to be used to push other guys and then when they feel it's time, he'll suddenly win a title. It's a horrible way to go about things. He should be being booked right now for years into the future.

[Volare]

I don't have a lot of faith based just on the writing. I feel like John Morrison is the only real new mega-star I can see coming out of this era right now and they're already screwing it up. He'll continue to be used to push other guys and then when they feel it's time, he'll suddenly win a title. It's a horrible way to go about things. He should be being booked right now for years into the future.


Not compaing JoMo to this guy, but didn't Jeff Hardy almost have the same thing going for him? Always had the big match, pulled off the highlight move, lose, crowd feels sorry so we rally even harder, repeat.

[Jordan]

I watched Cena vs JBL today, it was a lot better than I remembered. Actually, a lot of matches from the 2000's are better than I remember.

Sidenote:

Finally saw Wrestelemania 22, I quite enjoyed it.

[Damian Rey]

I watched Cena vs JBL today, it was a lot better than I remembered. Actually, a lot of matches from the 2000's are better than I remember.

Sidenote:

Finally saw Wrestelemania 22, I quite enjoyed it.

I think that match is heavily undervalued. No, it was not a great match, especially compared to Orton/Taker and the classic that Angle/HBK put on, but it was by no means a terrible match.

Mania 22 has one of the best, hottest Mania crowds. They were hot the whole night. Mickie/Trish and Cena/HHH are by far my fav matches of the night. The look on people's faces when H tapped was priceless. Not to mention, I beleive that was the birth of the WWE "boo/yay" tandem chant.

[Lara Emily]

Mania 22 was one of those events elevated by the crowd. It was an average Mania but the crowd made it memorable.

[Jeritron]

I wish Mania 22 had featured the return of Bret. It really would have been the time to do it, if he had been ready sooner.

[Lara Emily]

The crowd reaction would have been epic

[Damian Rey]

Agreed. His pop at the HOF induction was ridiculous.

[Wolfpack423]

Except for the Sumo match, I love Wrestlemania 21. In fact, it's one of my top five Wrestlemanias of all time. Cena and Batista winning the titles was awesome and personally I enjoyed 2005 and 2006 alot. Those were two of my favorite years. Each year has something great about it, but I though 05 and 06 were great all around. Well I also am a big Cena and Batista fan so I didn't see the problem. Miz and Alberto Del Rio ushering in a new era sucks, but I am already getting used to it. I don't like either, but at least Del Rio can wrestle. Personally, the new era has alot of good stars. Cena and Orton are like The Rock and Stone Cold/Hulk Hogan and Ultimate Warrior of their generation, and we have great young stars like Daniel Bryan, John Morrison, Kofi Kingston, Dolph Ziggler, Sheamus, Drew McIntyre, Evan Bourne etc. Del Rio is growing on me, but I haven't liked Miz since the Dixie Dog Fight.

Top 5 Wrestlemania for me:
1. 17
2. 22
3. 19
4. 14
5. 21