So I showed a bunch of marks some ROH this week

[Indifferent Clox]

Specifically, evan bourne and aj styles v dragon kid and yoshino

I then showed some UFC fans Danielson v Sawa from evolve

Out of 5 fans 1 who had never watched wrestling before, 1 who used to and 2 who were marks, and 1 who just sort of watches with her mark boyfriend, the reactions were similiar

"why doesn't wwe put on matches like this?"

"I have never seen anything like that on wwe, I have a new respect for it"

"it's like WWE but it looks more real"

"If they put this on TV, people would actually watch" (now this is based on a faulty assumption that people don't watch already, but...)

My point is that my whole life I've tried to show people pro wrestling and why I like it. When I was a WWE Fan I showed people Mick Foley, Taker, The Rock, even HBK, Jericho and Bret Hart. No one cared who didn't like wrestling already. Now I show people The stuff I like on the independents and people go ape for it.

Why?

[BigDaddyCool]

Cause you are dumb.

[Indifferent Clox]

you know you and gertner make it almost impossible to have a logical conversation in the wrestling forum.

[Londoner]

lol@BDC and logic being used in the same sentence.

;)

[Gertner]

Because your friends are losers like you.

Did they exclaim OMGZ WORKRATE NOM NOM NOM!?

[Gertner]

And Clox, judging by ROH losing their tv deal NOBODY WATCHES!

[Gertner]

Did you guys later have one big circle jerk fantasizing about Davey Richards's workate?

[Gertner]

Did you guys later all buy El Generico masks and chase each other around playing grab ass?

[Gertner]

Did you guys later all strip naked and pin each other down yelling " MAN UP"?

[Gertner]

Did two of you shoot each other in the head with shot guns, and then no sell it while the other three chanted " This is Wrestling"?

[BigDaddyCool]

i showed 5 people ROH and they really liked it, thus doubling ROH's audience!

[Gertner]

Did you all later dress up as Gandolf and Chikara and recreate classic CHIKARA matches?

[Gertner]

Did you all later do some serious investigating on a Saturday night to find out about Rodrick Strong's childhood so you'd have something to chant at a later date?

[BigDaddyCool]

Seriously clox, what is their to talk about? Indy wrestling is famous for having matches that hit a million spots in 5 minutes and the worker kill themselves every night.

[Gertner]

Did the 6 of you later have to go to time out for getting mad at your mom's for not giving you your allowance earl so you could attend an ROH show?

[Gertner]

Seriously clox, what is their to talk about? Indy wrestling is famous for having matches that hit a million spots in 5 minutes and the worker kill themselves every night.

The free 6 Inch Sub at Subway coupon more than makes up for it.

[Rammsteinmad]

To be serious, I'm calling bullshit on your friends. No offence, but they were just humouring you. I mean firstly, people who don't watch wrestling and casual fan ('I watch it with my boyfriend sometimes') don't really give a fuck.

For the friends who acted all 'OMG awesome!' or 'Wow WWE should do more stuff like this!!!', how many of them since have made an attempt to watch ROH?

[The Jayman]

why not just show a picture of your new kid and brag about that

[Gertner]

Well they'd better soon, since this fed that apparently has people in the millions watching their show every week is losing their tv deal next week and has already lost regular ppv's and are now having to do show on the internet. But hey, ROH IS THE FUTURE!

[BigDaddyCool]

It is only a matter of time before ROH crushes TNA and WWE.

[MoFo]

Sheltan BanjamIn wus holded down by HHH

WWE dont know talantz

Vince MacMan i killing wrastling

[Indifferent Clox]

The only point I gleamed from all this is that if WWE had better matches more people would be into it, keep the storylines, keep the larger than life charecter's just let the people you hire go all out at least on ppvs. WWE is losing money too. people used to bash ECW, cruiserweights, Hogan, Rock, everything, people always say stuff will never happen, but tell me why WWE is buying up ROH's biggest talents? Because 5 people liked them? Because they go do 500 spots and don't know how to work? seriously

[Indifferent Clox]

and one dude is continually borrowing my ROH dvds now, one dude ( a young african american fellow) continually comes over to watch, but I seriously doubt it will lead anywhere, doesn't mean I can't plant the seed.

My original question is why do people say this won't draw and yet the in ring stuff is more entertaining than wwe's to people who are casual fans?

I mean the story would keep the fans who haven't been exposed to that interested, and the matches would bring in new fans and older fans who are tired of WWE's product

[seapig4]

This thread is funny

[Indifferent Clox]

Gertner yr stuff was actually pretty hilarious in this thread, and for you to know so much about ROH, I realize now you are what i suspected all along, a semi entertaining troll.

[BigDaddyCool]

Clox, you fucking retard. How are you gleaming a point from your own fucking story? If you didn't know the point of your story form the get go, you don't have a story. Fuck off.

[Indifferent Clox]

I gleamed it from the experience not my retelling of the story, are you retarded?

[seapig4]

My original question is why do people say this won't draw and yet the in ring stuff is more entertaining than wwe's to people who are casual fans?


The in ring stuff doesn't draw. During wrestling biggest boom period it wasn't the in ring performances that drew the numbers it was the characters.

[Gertner]

I'm pretty sure the WWE isn't losing money Clox.

And it doesn't draw. If it were, ROH would still have a tv deal and regular ppv's.

[Gertner]

The only point I gleamed from all this is that if WWE had better matches more people would be into it, keep the storylines, keep the larger than life charecter's just let the people you hire go all out at least on ppvs. WWE is losing money too. people used to bash ECW, cruiserweights, Hogan, Rock, everything, people always say stuff will never happen, but tell me why WWE is buying up ROH's biggest talents? Because 5 people liked them? Because they go do 500 spots and don't know how to work? seriously

The WWE has bought the following wrestlers from ROH:

CM Punk
Tyler Black who is still in developmental
Bryan Danielson

That's it. I wouldn't call that buying up.

[What Would Kevin Do?]

This thread is hilarious.

Especially the buying El Generico masks and playing ass grab. Ole'!

Also, WWE also picked up Evan Bourne from ROH. Hardly buying up. TNA takes more ROH guys than WWE.

[Gertner]

You're right, I forgot about Bourne.

[What Would Kevin Do?]

You're right, I forgot about Bourne.

In your defense, so did WWE.

[Gertner]

ZING!!!!!!!!!!

[Indifferent Clox]

I'm not saying that charecters and storylines aren't what draw, they are. I'm not saying that ROH, dgusa, or any other company is gonna take the throne. I'm saying if wwe put longer time into their matches and let the guys actually go, wrestling would be more respected by the general populace, and if it kept the same story and bumped up the athleticism, i don't see how they'd go anywhere but up.
and yeah wwe's stock is down.

[Rammsteinmad]

Wrestling will always be seen as a joke by the public. Even if WWE took a ROH-approach to their matches, any other athlete will still laugh at the thought of wrestling being competitive.

[Gertner]

Wrestling will always be looked at as a joke by the public also because of the popularity of MMA.

Just because the WWE's stock is down doesn't mean it's losing money

If they made let's say 100 million last year and only 50 million this year, sure the stock is down, but they are still making money.

[Indifferent Clox]

I think people would at least throw the word 'fake' around a lot less and the word 'artistic combat' or some other phrase around a lot more

[Gertner]

Clox, I HIGHLY doubt that.

[Rammsteinmad]

Lol 'artistic combat'. I actually laughed at that.

[Gertner]

lol me too. I almost swallowed my dip.

[Indifferent Clox]

I'm probably wrong. I just find it very odd that people always bash the style and say it's too complex for the 'southern style'/ showman fans and yet pretty much everybody who i've let see it likes it more than WWE.

I feel like a lot of times here in america best= most popular, whether it's movies, books, games, music, wrestling, comics, etc. people seem to have this ideal that everything that is popular is where it is because it's the best.

I think this stems from our political layout, but even using that as a standard is faulty. We have two parties both of which most people have issue with and yet we'd rather continue fighting over them than to try anything drastic or new.

I think this delves more into philosophy than pro wrestling though, dunno.

[Rammsteinmad]

I dunno. I'm off to engage in some artistic combat with a passerby.

[Gertner]

Yes Clox, Indy wrestling is far too complex for our imbred minds to comprehend.

[Rammsteinmad]

Indy Artistic Combating.

Sport's Entertainmenting.

The entire wrestling world is changing around us.

[MoFo]

ROH need more promos and less wrestling

[Jeritron]

Why don't you show them Shawn Michaels and Undertaker

[Gertner]

I think people would at least throw the word 'fake' around a lot less and the word 'artistic combat' or some other phrase around a lot more

I almost want to post this in the Casual Forum.

[Riker]

Best doesnt have to equal Most popular - look at Bieber. He certainly isnt the best.

But Spot Fests with a bunch of 20 somethings that live in their parents basements all chanting stupid shit over and over....Also isnt the best.

[Riker]

Honestly ROH is to the WWE as The Strokes are to Good Music.

[Gertner]

I have Bieber fever.

[Gertner]

Honestly ROH is to the WWE as The Strokes are to Good Music.

A scathing critique of the Strokes. They have been put on notice!

[Riker]

A scathing critique of the Strokes. They have been put on notice!

Yes, they should fear me and my wrestle board thoughts. Look out ROH too!

I dont like the strokes. Most people dont. But they have a loyal fan base that wants to push them off onto everyone else.

Shoe Fits. Less about Strokes hate, and more about Douches spreading their favorite stuff.

[Razzamajazz]

wwe isn't a wrestling company duh

[Indifferent Clox]

The strokes suck now though :(

"I" wasn't saying that "I" think southern style fans wouldn't understand it, i've just been told that by other people in the business.

[Indifferent Clox]

It's more like animal collective or maybe radiohead.

WWE is like Michael Jackson, everyone knows it whether they've actually listened/ watched the product or not and there is somehting for everyone.

ECW was like Nirvana, changed wrestling entirely but now everyone acts like they always loved it even though half the people werent even alive when it came out.

ROH is like indie rock yes, more complex than mainstream. I wouldn't say it'd be a specific band though because there are so many unique styles within ring of honor, it's like radiohead probably, very diverse styalistically.

but any of these comparisons are faulty.

[Gertner]

So kicking out of 1000 finishers and no selling is complex? ARE YOU CALLING ME DUMB SON!!!!!

[Indifferent Clox]

That's a very stereotypical way to look at a show with a bunch of matches that are nothing like that.

What was Mike Tyson's finisher? the overhand right? anyway sometimes he'd use it once, sometimes he'd have to use it 10 or 11 times. I think people use WWE as the standard for which all wrestling should be based, and thus ROH can kinda seem kind of overboard at times by comparison. Not every ROH match is better than every WWE match or vice versa, But there are great matches by both companies.

I don't think you need to kick out of 15 or 16 different finishers to have a good match in fact maybe 2. But I like interesting chaining, a false finish maybe, some moves where I'm like "how the fuck did they do that?", some strong strikes to the point where you realize the dudes putting his body on the line, I mean look at most Danielson matches, they aren't full of 1000 kick outs, they just have a lot of great mat work, a lot of creative turns on cliches, just stuff you don't see every day.

Now of course one day in the future if wwe does ever take on a different style of wrestling and not try to compact it into their box, some other form of wrestling that's different will come along and I'll be having this same discussion, only maybe then i'll be in your shoes, dunno.

[Gertner]

Using boxing in your comparison is ridiculous Clox. lol boxers don't have finishers.

[Indifferent Clox]

What I mean is people have a thing called adrenaline, and sometimes when they get hit enough shit stops hurting as much, wwe never really took this into account except for Hogan's no sell leading to his finisher. I think it's less realistic to have one move that always puts people out than to possibly have to try a bunch of moves. it also, from a fan point of view, leads to more surprises, sure you know the match is gonna end but... when and how? in wwe it's almost always as soon as someone hits their finisher.

[Gertner]

It makes it mean more if a wrestler kicks out of it.

[Indifferent Clox]

I'm not saying get rid of showman style, I'm not using the 'either' 'or' approach, I am taking the "both/and" approach. I think both styles can pull out classic matches, I'd just like to see WWE utilize both rather than try to bastardize any given genre of 'artistic combat'

[Indifferent Clox]

I guess it all depends on if you want to get the finisher over or the worker over. Just because someone didn't get knocked out by Tyson's KO blow didn't make that overhand right any less deadly.

But I digress, You don't have to use the same finisher you're whole career. King's road style, they use a finisher untill it doesn't work, then they move on to the next, and sometimes in a huge match they may pull out one of their old ifnishers followed by their newest and when that doesn't work pull out one from somewhere in the middle to get the win.

[seapig4]

I'm sorry Clox, but saying that Tyson had a finisher is one of the most fucktarded things i've ever read.

You've lost track of your opening point and are now drowing in a pool of drool.

[Indifferent Clox]

He usually tried to knock people out with the overhand right

[seapig4]

He usually tried to knock people out with the overhand right

No. He tried to knock people out.

[The Jayman]

and occasionally would bite your ear off

[seapig4]

and occasionally would bite your ear off

Only when he was hungry

[The Jayman]

well all that boxing works up an appetite

[Riker]

So Clox is either a legit pro - or some white trash loser.

Im leaning toward the latter

[CSL]

Did two of you shoot each other in the head with shot guns, and then no sell it while the other three chanted " This is Wrestling"?

lol

[Hanso Amore]

So Clox is either a legit pro - or some white trash loser.

Im leaning toward the latter

Pretty observant.

Clox knows THE BUSINESS and people IN THE BUSINESS.

[Indifferent Clox]

A legit pro faker or a legit pro artistic combatant?

[Blitz]

Did two of you shoot each other in the head with shot guns, and then no sell it while the other three chanted " This is Wrestling"?

Did you all later do some serious investigating on a Saturday night to find out about Rodrick Strong's childhood so you'd have something to chant at a later date?
Best of the thread. After 'artistic combat' of course.

[BigDaddyCool]

What is the difference between ROH and Justin Bieber

People know who Justin Bieber is

[Jordan]

They don't wrestle like that anymore anyway, Grizzly Redwood? Are you serious?

[Mr. Nerfect]

I think the reason people probably comes down to the style the guys work, it being less "staged" and less "cartoony" in general. That's not a criticism of the WWE or me blowing ROH, but they're two different subgenres of professional wrestling, in a way.

ROH would be better off keeping track of wins and losses, providing finishes out of nowhere, random upsets (like Edwards beating Strong for the ROH World Title, which I totally called) and all that sort of stuff. Not to mimic MMA, but to sort of get on that same wave-length.

If the WWE started doing that, then I think they would lose a lot of ground. The obvious comparisons between professional wrestling and MMA would be drawn (one is fake and the other is not), and it'd just be a huge failure like the XFL. Besides, the WWE has some of the best wrestlers in the world under contract. Guys that ROH would murder to get (back).

That being said, ROH is probably the best alternative to the WWE out there. If you feel dumb watching the WWE and it's obvious patterns and safe-marketed approach -- then ROH provides something more unchained for your viewing tastes. They just need to get themselves out there more, and perhaps get some of their guys some more air-time somewhere.

ROH can't present themselves like the WWE and be anywhere near as successful. I think ROH is more likely to find niche success with a different way of getting their product out there. DVDs are probably the best option. They come with replayability and you can crash more than a measly hour into there (an hour for ROH to present anything is cutting it fine). They don't need to tour in huge arenas, or anything like that, but they should work on their presentation and really make it seem like they are going for a small, intimate arena -- but it just shouldn't look like crap.

ROH has its problems, but I want them to succeed, and if they had the money that TNA had, I think they would be doing a better job.

[Seth82]

ROH was actually a fun to promotion to watch

I haven't seen stuff from the last few yrs but I like Ring of Honor

They're much better then TNA

[Kane Knight]

Oh dear, this thread is priceless.

[Indifferent Clox]

ROH is actually more staged than pre-2003 wwe but less than wwe now. IE they have a ring where they can work shit out at any time, and there isnt as much walking and talking. But remembering those spots is an art all its own.

[Nicky Fives]

10 year olds rather see Cena win.....

[CSL]

But remembering those spots is an art all its own.

is it fuck

[CSL]

my arse it is

[CSL]

fuck off is it

[CSL]

*other various ways to say 'no' in an over the top manner*

[Xero]

No you cocksucking moronic monstrosity of a retarded bastard?

[Kane Knight]

But remembering those spots is an art all its own.

Rote memorisation is an art. Gotcha.

10 year olds rather see Cena win.....

Well, they appreciate the "art" of the five moves of doom.

[What Would Kevin Do?]

But remembering those spots is an art all its own.

HUH? I think you mean it's a skill. Remembering things is not an art. I'm taking the bar next month, and I'm pretty sure remembering all the legal crap I have to remember isn't "art."

[CSL]

Coming soon to DVD: A 3 disc extravaganza featuring What Would Kevin Do? revising for the bar! Then, watch as he and others remember as many things as they can before rushing through them in a seemingly random order in a limited amount of time! Coming soon only on DVD, it's Artistic Justice: The Best of WWKD Volume 1!

[CSL]

No you cocksucking moronic monstrosity of a retarded bastard?

I was about to say 'bit harsh' but he did kind of bring the cocksucking part upon himself :-\