I just want to talk about Dolph Ziggler for a bit.

[Anybody Thrilla]

I am really digging what appears to be his direction currently. The more aggressive theme song...the amped up intensity...the extreme arrogance...

He just really seems like an actual threat now. I've been a fan for a while, but I never really thought he'd break through to the main event. Now? I'm thinking he has a shot at it. He's not really doing anything that we haven't seen before, but he's doing it so fucking well that it feels like his own.

Also, "FOLLOW THAT!" is gonna catch on. Mark my words.

Your thoughts?

[XCaliber]

He's really coming into his own I feel but seriously if they wanna make him seem like a legit contender they need to change his freaking name.

[Anybody Thrilla]

He's really coming into his own I feel but seriously if they wanna make him seem like a legit contender they need to change his freaking name.

Ehh, you might be right, but if they're going to do something like that, it's going to have to be soon. The transformation is ALMOST complete.

[Haze]

Been high on Ziggler since his re-debut with Batista on Raw a few years back. Always thought he had all the tools, and since then he has had some show stealing matches. I'm really glad that they dropped his character overhaul they gave him earlier this year, and allowed him to go back to what he was good at with a little more edge to him. I can easily see him making much bigger strides in the next few months, and go on to have a few more World Title wins under his belt.

[Shadrick]

So in the record books, he's officially a former World Champion? I'm asking because I seriously don't know.

[Anybody Thrilla]

They've mentioned that he's a former World champion on commentary, so I'm assuming so.

[Anybody Thrilla]

I guess it's kinda like what Miz said to Swagger, though...

"If you win a World championship and nobody remembers it, did it really happen?"

[Lock Jaw]

He held it for like five minutes.

Anyways, I love that he has legitimized the sleeper hold as one of his finishers.

[Shisen Kopf]

He was better in the spirit squad fo sho

[Anybody Thrilla]

I was a Spirit Squad fan, honestly.

[Stickman]

I'm not high on him but that may be because he is with Vicky. Can't stand that women and ever since she was Smackdown's GM she's been a channel changer.

[Anybody Thrilla]

She didn't do anything on this past Raw but stand at ringside.

[Anybody Thrilla]

"I DARE just ONE PERSON to follow that! ONE PERSON!"

Love it

[Cuse8]

the shorter and dark haired ziggler looked like even bournes big brother

i was very glad they let him go back to his prior look atleast, but agree with most that he has all the tools and hopefully will be main eventing very soon

[XL]

I'm digging him but I'd like to see him get involved with a fued that doesn't involve Kofi. A Ziggler-Bourne series could be gold. Something with Swagger perhaps?

[Anybody Thrilla]

Bourne would make sense, since he just "won" his feud with Swagger. Seems like he should be in line for a US title shot.

[Lock Jaw]

And now that we can tell Ziggler and Bourne apart again. :shifty:

[Shisen Kopf]

They should give him corporal kirchner's old gimmick.

[Stickman]

She didn't do anything on this past Raw but stand at ringside.

That's too bad as I just can't get over her even being on my tv.

[Chavo Classic]

Ziggler keeps getting better and better. His match with Bryan at Night of Champions got my attention, and ever since he's been the "go to" guy when it comes to solid in-ring performances.

He might not be the best on the mic, but that's why they paired him with Guerrero.

[CSL]

He's excellent pretty much across the board. Can't help but think they're regretting giving him the name Dolph Ziggler now.

[Anybody Thrilla]

That's too bad as I just can't get over her even being on my tv.

What if you just took an old friend's word for it and checked the match out on YouTube or something?

[Wolfpack423]

As long as WWE focuses more on guys like Ziggler, Morrison, Kofi, Dibiase, Rhodes, Bourne etc then it will continue to get better as it has since the beginning of July. Dolph Ziggler is one of the best things going in WWE and I see him going up with the revamped theme and who would have ever thought that Nicky of the Spirit Squad would become as big a star as he has. I am glad it wasn't Kenny Dykstra. I thought him and Mitch were the only two that were bad in the Spirit Squad. I am not a fan of Miz, Riley or Del Rio, but if they are seen as the future as well you have to make as many younger stars as you can for the next generation. Del Rio is great to watch in the ring, but I don't think hes good with any of the other aspects which is fine, because his ring skills are good and will get better. Him becoming champion wouldn't be the worst thing, but honestly Miz's title reign was my least favorite of all time and I really don't think he should have won it to begin with. Riley has all the potential and a great theme, but I am not a fan and still have yet to see a good match with him. I didn't think his matches with Miz were good at all.

[captaincharismark]

Am I seriously the only fan here that thinks Dolph Ziggler isn't anything special? I admit his in ring work is good enough, but for the most part his matches haven't been exciting. It could be him and Kofi have been fueding for a year or so now, but his matches bore me. It seems like the guy is more of a mark for himself than the fans are. I dare someone to follow that??? As far as that goes, the Cena/Mysterio match that same night was far better.

And his mic skills aren't even vaguely interesting. In his fued with Edge, he had a chance to step up and prove himself, but again failed to impress. It's a pretty good indication of how much confidence WWE has in him when Vickie Guerrero is his manager. I mean, she gets heat b/c ppl hate her being annoying, but she doesn't scream personality. To me, him having her as a manager makes him look weak. I thought the night Austin was GM, we might see the end of that, but they totally overlooked that stipulation. So much for him being solo to see if he can develop better mic skills.

Overall, I haven't see that much in Ziggler. He's not a phenominal worker or entertainer, and hasn't even been improving on a consistent level. And what an abomination of a name. Of course, I never thought the guy would amount to much in the Spirit Squad, and even now doesn't convince me...

[Lock Jaw]

Ziggler has been allowed to talk more on his own. He seems to be doing well.

I agree about how in the past, especially during the World Title feud, he allowed Vickie to do most of the talking. He really needed to start taking control and transfer some of Vickie's massive heat towards himself.

Now I notice that Vickie's role seems to be minimized, while Dolph himself gets to shine a bit more.

[dhellova guy]

i was very glad they let him go back to his prior look atleast, but agree with most that he has all the tools and hopefully will be main eventing very soon

Agreed. I hated when he changed hair color. He looked like everyone else. With the bleach blond hair, he stands out, I notice him more.

[Emperor Smeat]

I've liked how he's treating the US title as being the only prestigious title on RAW or the WWE especially during the time when the WWE title was in a crisis when there was thoughts of Punk taking away the title when he left. He could even make reference that the US title is stable enough that it doesn't need any sort of reunification like the WWE title needs due to its mess.

If WWE was quick enough, they could have Ziggler mock Cena saying his is only a replica or not prestigious since Ziggler hasn't let his title been taken hostage by someone who was willing to leave the company. He could even mock Punk saying a true champion doesn't run away or make threats trying to take a belt away from a company.

[Kane Knight]

I'd be more surprised if you ever didn't like the direction Ziggles was going in.

I'm pretty sure he could OD and be found bloated and naked in his bathtub and you'd post "I like where this is going."

[Chavo Classic]

Am I seriously the only fan here that thinks Dolph Ziggler isn't anything special?

Yes

[captaincharismark]

I'd be more surprised if you ever didn't like the direction Ziggles was going in.

I'm pretty sure he could OD and be found bloated and naked in his bathtub and you'd post "I like where this is going."


No, the difference being I'm one of the few here with the balls to form an opinion that doesn't mean jumping on the bandwagon.

And it's ignorant of you to say I'd like him if he OD'ed. If that happened, it would be a shame, but his work is what it is. Theoretically, if he sucked when he was alive, he would suck if he was found dead in a hotel.

If ppl here like him, sing his praises, but I disagree. I'm not gonna call a mediocre at best wrestler great. At this point in his career, he hasn't shown anything special. The fact that Vickie Guerrero is his manager means he sucks as an entertainer. He hasn't used her in any apparent way to get over as a big time heel. Asking someone to follow your match is laughable too if you aren't having a 5 star classic. It sure as hell isn't a standard to judge other matches with...

[CSL]

I'd be more surprised if you ever didn't like the direction Ziggles was going in.

I'm pretty sure he could OD and be found bloated and naked in his bathtub and you'd post "I like where this is going."

No, the difference being I'm one of the few here with the balls to form an opinion that doesn't mean jumping on the bandwagon.

And it's ignorant of you to say I'd like him if he OD'ed. If that happened, it would be a shame, but his work is what it is. Theoretically, if he sucked when he was alive, he would suck if he was found dead in a hotel.

If ppl here like him, sing his praises, but I disagree. I'm not gonna call a mediocre at best wrestler great. At this point in his career, he hasn't shown anything special. The fact that Vickie Guerrero is his manager means he sucks as an entertainer. He hasn't used her in any apparent way to get over as a big time heel. Asking someone to follow your match is laughable too if you aren't having a 5 star classic. It sure as hell isn't a standard to judge other matches with...

lol how did you manage to come to the conclusion that that post was aimed at you?

[captaincharismark]

lol how did you manage to come to the conclusion that that post was aimed at you?

Maybe it was the fact I was only guy here would didn't like Ziggler. That and his lame attempt to make fun of my "RAW is headed in the right direction" thread. Seems to narrow things down...

[Mr. Pierre]

He's been one of WWE's top workers for quite a while. I think he's got all the confidence in the world when it comes to his in-ring performance, as he should. I really like his new "Follow that" thing, because he more than likely truly believes it and it shows.

It's obvious that his strength is putting on good matches, and he seems to realize that his character should revolve around his ability to put on a show better than anyone else. Because quite frankly, any scripted promo that I've seen from him comes off way too forced (like most scripted promos do, but him more than others).

[Lock Jaw]

Don't know why everyone is acting like him saying "Follow That" is a "thing" when he has only said it once. If he starts saying it some more, then it becomes a "thing".

[GD]

His match against Bryan Danielson at Bragging Rights was BOSS!

[Asmo]

Solid worker, but i agree with captaincharismark here. Don't find anything special in him, except when he used to do his hair flick (that was awesome). Sure, he'll go places, probably be a legit world champ one day, but he doesn't make me care about him. I think Vicky was his crutch, and they seem to be giving Ziggler more room nowadays to stand out on his own, so that's a step in the right direction.

[Wishbone]

Ziggler is moving up in my rankings every time I see him. Guy's got the potential and the look and I think if he keeps on this path he'll be a top contender in no time. As for a name change I really don't think it's nessasary, but it couldn't hurt and might speed the process of pushing him up a bit so I definatly am not opposed.

[captaincharismark]

Solid worker, but i agree with captaincharismark here. Don't find anything special in him, except when he used to do his hair flick (that was awesome). Sure, he'll go places, probably be a legit world champ one day, but he doesn't make me care about him. I think Vicky was his crutch, and they seem to be giving Ziggler more room nowadays to stand out on his own, so that's a step in the right direction.

Well, being a solid worker and being great aren't the same thing. He doesn't quite stand out from other guys who are in the mid card currently. While giving him more space to shine without Vickie is a step in the right direction, it hardly makes him deserving of a major title. The main issue I have with Ziggler is he is so boring and bland. Sometimes I wonder if the sleeper hold he uses isn't a symbolic gesture of his character. Cause his matches and his character are in desperate need of vast improvement before I'd be convinced he's as good as he claims. Not exactly screaming standard bearer, and certainly not the best matches or most entertaining segments on RAW.

[Shadrick]

lol man

[Mr. Nerfect]

I love Dolph Ziggler. He's one of the best guys in the ring that they have, and he's got a good look and interesting persona. He works amazingly well with bigger guys, too. The guy's already a success (formerly a World Heavyweight Champion), but I expect bigger things from him. I'd like to see him start up a feud with Alex Riley.

[XL]

Doesn't like Ziggler. Doesn't like Rhodes. Who does captaincharismark like?

[Tom Guycott]

I've already professed my love for Kingston/Ziggler matches.

With that said, I don't see him competing for Flair's or even Cena's number of world title reigns, but I can see them letting him bear the company flag for awhile.

[Anybody Thrilla]

Am I seriously the only fan here that thinks Dolph Ziggler isn't anything special? I admit his in ring work is good enough, but for the most part his matches haven't been exciting. It could be him and Kofi have been fueding for a year or so now, but his matches bore me. It seems like the guy is more of a mark for himself than the fans are. I dare someone to follow that??? As far as that goes, the Cena/Mysterio match that same night was far better.

And his mic skills aren't even vaguely interesting. In his fued with Edge, he had a chance to step up and prove himself, but again failed to impress. It's a pretty good indication of how much confidence WWE has in him when Vickie Guerrero is his manager. I mean, she gets heat b/c ppl hate her being annoying, but she doesn't scream personality. To me, him having her as a manager makes him look weak. I thought the night Austin was GM, we might see the end of that, but they totally overlooked that stipulation. So much for him being solo to see if he can develop better mic skills.

Overall, I haven't see that much in Ziggler. He's not a phenominal worker or entertainer, and hasn't even been improving on a consistent level. And what an abomination of a name. Of course, I never thought the guy would amount to much in the Spirit Squad, and even now doesn't convince me...

What I like about Ziggler's matches is that his offense almost always makes sense. He seems like he goes in with a strategy, and he adjusts that strategy according to how things pan out. His name is hokey, but his execution certainly is not.

I would agree that his mic work has been sub-par barring a few occasions, and I think that might even lend to why I like the "FOLLOW THAT!" line. It's two simple words that are hard to jumble and pretty easy to deliver...kinda like another catch phrase that used to be accompanied by a crotch chop.

I'd be more surprised if you ever didn't like the direction Ziggles was going in.

I'm pretty sure he could OD and be found bloated and naked in his bathtub and you'd post "I like where this is going."

What would be even more surprising than THAT would be if you actually added anything to this discussion without making a stupid, non-comical attempt at a personal attack, but that's probably just me too.


If ppl here like him, sing his praises, but I disagree. I'm not gonna call a mediocre at best wrestler great. At this point in his career, he hasn't shown anything special. The fact that Vickie Guerrero is his manager means he sucks as an entertainer. He hasn't used her in any apparent way to get over as a big time heel. Asking someone to follow your match is laughable too if you aren't having a 5 star classic. It sure as hell isn't a standard to judge other matches with...

I know that I never personally used the word "great" in this thread until this very sentence, but from a wrestling standpoint, Ziggler is definitely one of the best in the WWE right now. I've explained why I enjoy his matches in this very post, so I won't reiterate just yet.

Also, I was unaware that having Vickie Guerrero as a manager automatically meant that you sucked as an entertainer. Edge would like to have a word with you.

As far as the "FOLLOW THAT!" line being laughable, you may be forgetting that professional wrestling has heels and faces, and in the role of an arrogant heel (as Dolph Ziggler is portraying right now), it is not uncommon to make ridiculous claims to paint oneself in a superior light. It's the simple dynamics of pro wrestling, bud. If Ziggler was a FACE yelling that, it would be a little silly. He's not, though.



With that said, I don't see him competing for Flair's or even Cena's number of world title reigns, but I can see them letting him bear the company flag for awhile.

I don't see Ziggler approaching Flair or Cena's numbers either, and I just feel I should state that quite clearly now before anyone tries to put any words in my mouth. What I will say is that Ziggler's new found intensity has him more poised for kayfabe success than ever before in today's WWE.

[Corporate CockSnogger]

Maybe it was the fact I was only guy here would didn't like Ziggler. That and his lame attempt to make fun of my "RAW is headed in the right direction" thread. Seems to narrow things down...

Did you even read Kane Knights post that you replied to? Go back and read it again, see if you still think it's aimed at you.

[Innovator]

Ziggler is good, can be great, but if I see another Kofi match I'm gonna pull my hair out.

[Rock Bottom]

I liked Ziggler and Kofi's matches because you could tell they cared about them being logical. The announcers did a pretty good job of pointing that out also.

[wwe2222]

Dolph is one of the few guys Ill watch now. Cant change the name now either. I know its silly but its different enough to separate him from generic wrestling names.

[Stickman]

What if you just took an old friend's word for it and checked the match out on YouTube or something?

I think this ol' chap is somebody I can trust. I will give Mr. Ziggler a try on Monday.

[captaincharismark]

Doesn't like Ziggler. Doesn't like Rhodes. Who does captaincharismark like?

It sure wouldn't be the bland and mediocre guys like Ziggler and Rhodes. Just b/c liking them is popular opinion doesn't mean I have to jump on the bandwagon. I see nothing that makes either guy stand out, other than bad promos and less than stellar matches...

[CSL]

Don't know why everyone is acting like him saying "Follow That" is a "thing" when he has only said it once. If he starts saying it some more, then it becomes a "thing".

he's posted it multiple times on Twitter after his matches, I'd say the fact he's started saying it on TV now (and went out of his way to do so) now makes it "a thing"

[CSL]

It sure wouldn't be the bland and mediocre guys like Ziggler and Rhodes. Just b/c liking them is popular opinion doesn't mean I have to jump on the bandwagon. I see nothing that makes either guy stand out, other than bad promos and less than stellar matches...

you rebel you

[Kal-El]

Keep the name, get rid of Vicky, and continue to improve on the wrestling matches. Now that's heading in the right direction for his character.

[captaincharismark]

What I like about Ziggler's matches is that his offense almost always makes sense. He seems like he goes in with a strategy, and he adjusts that strategy according to how things pan out. His name is hokey, but his execution certainly is not.

While I do agree he seems to use strategy in his matches, I think that makes it more bland and boring. When was the last time a great wrestler needed a strategy to get a match over? Plus, I've always admired the wrestlers that can improv their work and be innovative. Being creative in the ring shouldn't be over analyzed. It does add some structure to the matches, but in the end I can pretend they aren't boring. His name is another example of WWE creative not having a clue, as they have never come up with a decent name. Not his fault there.

I would agree that his mic work has been sub-par barring a few occasions, and I think that might even lend to why I like the "FOLLOW THAT!" line. It's two simple words that are hard to jumble and pretty easy to deliver...kinda like another catch phrase that used to be accompanied by a crotch chop.

Yeah, but it's also a clever attempt on WWE's part to hide his flaws on the mic. Using two words accomplishes that. However, it's a very cheesy way of doing it. I do like that phrase, cause it draws more heat for him and gives him an attitude. Seems to me though that he could be more comfortable on the mic. Even the worst guys on the mic could deliver two words. To be considered a top guy you have to deliver big time on the mic and have the ability to keep up anyone. All I'm saying is he tends to rely on Vickie too much to draw heat for him.



What would be even more surprising than THAT would be if you actually added anything to this discussion without making a stupid, non-comical attempt at a personal attack, but that's probably just me too.

Glad I'm not the only one who's noticed that fact. KK tends to enter a discussion like this and try and personally attack someone. Ok if you want to be a smartass, but not great if you don't add one insight into the topic. How lame is it that he feels the need to take personal shots over actual conversation?



I know that I never personally used the word "great" in this thread until this very sentence, but from a wrestling standpoint, Ziggler is definitely one of the best in the WWE right now. I've explained why I enjoy his matches in this very post, so I won't reiterate just yet.

Also, I was unaware that having Vickie Guerrero as a manager automatically meant that you sucked as an entertainer. Edge would like to have a word with you.

I can understand ppl liking him using some strategy as a form of psychology. but it bores me. Rather than making his matches better, to me they are less watchable. I find myself doing anything but paying attention after the first few minutes he's in the ring. To some extent, I think that's why some ppl don't like him. Short attention spans(like mine)and over thought matches equals disaster. You have to be aware of the fans when you plan a match. It can be logical without being boring to the point of turning the fans away.

In Edge's case, he was the "ultimate opportunist" so him using Vickie when she was SD and RAW GM made sense for his character. In Ziggler's case, he has Vickie as a way of getting him over on the mic. Not exactly a proper comparison, though I can see why you might make that analogy.

As far as the "FOLLOW THAT!" line being laughable, you may be forgetting that professional wrestling has heels and faces, and in the role of an arrogant heel (as Dolph Ziggler is portraying right now), it is not uncommon to make ridiculous claims to paint oneself in a superior light. It's the simple dynamics of pro wrestling, bud. If Ziggler was a FACE yelling that, it would be a little silly. He's not, though.

I've never forgotten wrestling has heels and faces. Always interesting when someone accuses me of not knowing wrestling b/c of a different opinion. I realize saying, "Follow That" is a way of getting him over as an arrogant heel. Although it accomplishes that, it's a cheesy way of doing so. And certainly doesn't improve his character any. In the end, if he doesn't improve, he'll be yet another bland guy stuck in the mid card...



I don't see Ziggler approaching Flair or Cena's numbers either, and I just feel I should state that quite clearly now before anyone tries to put any words in my mouth. What I will say is that Ziggler's new found intensity has him more poised for kayfabe success than ever before in today's WWE.

There's a reason you don't see Ziggler approaching Cena or Flair. That's b/c both Cena and Flair understand what it takes to entertain ppl more properly. Until Ziggler can fully understand how to evolve his character and not be repetitive, he'll always be one dimensional. Can he successful? Yes, but only if he can adapt. If not, I could easily see him being released somewhere down the line.

[captaincharismark]

you rebel you

Tough job, but somebody has to do it. ;)

[XL]

It sure wouldn't be the bland and mediocre guys like Ziggler and Rhodes. Just b/c liking them is popular opinion doesn't mean I have to jump on the bandwagon. I see nothing that makes either guy stand out, other than bad promos and less than stellar matches...
Hey, I'm all for being a "hipster" (much :heart: for Bieber) but you didn't actually tell us who you do like...

[captaincharismark]

Hey, I'm all for being a "hipster" (much :heart: for Bieber) but you didn't actually tell us who you do like...

It depends on which show you're talking about....

RAW
CM Punk
John Cena
Rey Mysterio
The Miz
HHH(I think his new role will freshen his career up)

SD
Sheamus(very awesome, talented big guy)
Christian
Randy Orton
Kane

[XL]

Thanks.

[Corporate CockSnogger]

What mid or upper midcarders do you like Captain Charismark? Just so we know who to avoid praising if we don't want to be considered sheep.

[Anybody Thrilla]

While I do agree he seems to use strategy in his matches, I think that makes it more bland and boring. When was the last time a great wrestler needed a strategy to get a match over? Plus, I've always admired the wrestlers that can improv their work and be innovative. Being creative in the ring shouldn't be over analyzed. It does add some structure to the matches, but in the end I can pretend they aren't boring. His name is another example of WWE creative not having a clue, as they have never come up with a decent name. Not his fault there.

Are you saying you would prefer the matches to be over-the-top and nonsensical? I'm not asking that to be a dick, but just trying to gauge your interest. One of the biggest critiques of wrestling over the years is that it's obviously predetermined and often cheesy. Ziggler matches always seem more 'legitimate' to me, and he makes it easier to suspend disbelief. I also find it difficult to buy that Ziggler isn't innovative. He's constantly doing things that I haven't seen before or adding a new twist on old traditions.

His name is pretty much a moot point. It doesn't detract from what he does in the ring. Honestly, the cheesy nature of his name seems like it would be right up your alley, seeing as to how you apparently aren't a fan of making things seem too real.



Yeah, but it's also a clever attempt on WWE's part to hide his flaws on the mic. Using two words accomplishes that. However, it's a very cheesy way of doing it. I do like that phrase, cause it draws more heat for him and gives him an attitude. Seems to me though that he could be more comfortable on the mic. Even the worst guys on the mic could deliver two words. To be considered a top guy you have to deliver big time on the mic and have the ability to keep up anyone. All I'm saying is he tends to rely on Vickie too much to draw heat for him.

What's wrong with hiding flaws? They're letting him showcase what he's GOOD at and not forcing his weaknesses down our throats. It's a pretty sound strategy, and we should honestly be thankful they are employing it. This tactic was what made Paul Heyman a wrestling deity.

You don't NEED to be great on the mic to be a top guy (read: Goldberg, Brock Lesnar, The Undertaker, Lex Luger, Yokozuna, Bret Hart, Rey Mysterio, etc.), even though it would definitely help. It's not necessary, though. There's no reason to pretend he's great when he's not. Just let him go on and continue putting on wrestling clinics, like he has been doing. He's perfectly capable of being a top guy in TODAY'S WWE.

As far as Vickie, she didn't do a single thing this past Monday besides stand at ringside. Sure they were using her heat at first, but Dolph seems to really be coming into his own as of late. Just because Shawn Michaels used Sherri's heat at first doesn't mean he was a shitty entertainer.


I can understand ppl liking him using some strategy as a form of psychology. but it bores me. Rather than making his matches better, to me they are less watchable. I find myself doing anything but paying attention after the first few minutes he's in the ring. To some extent, I think that's why some ppl don't like him. Short attention spans(like mine)and over thought matches equals disaster. You have to be aware of the fans when you plan a match. It can be logical without being boring to the point of turning the fans away.

I guess I would have to ask you what some of your favorite matches of all time are. Before you even answer, I'm willing to bet that they were longer than most matches and pretty well thought out.

In Edge's case, he was the "ultimate opportunist" so him using Vickie when she was SD and RAW GM made sense for his character. In Ziggler's case, he has Vickie as a way of getting him over on the mic. Not exactly a proper comparison, though I can see why you might make that analogy.

You said that having Vickie as a manager meant that you weren't a good entertainer. That's simply not true. It's not like Edge was some extreme outlier. The only other person to compare anything Vickie-related to is Eric Escobar, and I'm kinda furious that I've just been reminded of his existence.


I've never forgotten wrestling has heels and faces. Always interesting when someone accuses me of not knowing wrestling b/c of a different opinion. I realize saying, "Follow That" is a way of getting him over as an arrogant heel. Although it accomplishes that, it's a cheesy way of doing so. And certainly doesn't improve his character any. In the end, if he doesn't improve, he'll be yet another bland guy stuck in the mid card...

I wasn't actually accusing you of not knowing wrestling, you dork. I was ribbing you a bit and making a point. I feel I've earned that right by now, since this definitely isn't the first go-round we've had on the boards. I swear, not everything is a personal attack.

Again, the word 'cheesy' comes up. From what you've been saying, you seem to prefer 'cheesy' to 'sensical', so I feel you're going to have to elaborate on your actual wrestling taste here.

As far as Ziggler being stuck in the mid card, he's already been a World Heavyweight champion, so somebody (that mattered) somewhere at least saw a little something in him. He's clearly being groomed for the future.


There's a reason you don't see Ziggler approaching Cena or Flair. That's b/c both Cena and Flair understand what it takes to entertain ppl more properly. Until Ziggler can fully understand how to evolve his character and not be repetitive, he'll always be one dimensional. Can he successful? Yes, but only if he can adapt. If not, I could easily see him being released somewhere down the line.

Why does it always seem to come back to the all-time greats with you? I was even more careful with my wording of this thread title as to not get you up in arms about it (you're welcome).

Here's the bottom line: Ziggler is very good in the ring. While in the past he was presented as a bit of a joke, the character seems to be coming to the point now where he can be taken as a serious threat, and he can easily become a top player in today's WWE landscape. The only part of that you seem to disagree with is that he is very good in the ring, and to me, that's laughable.

[XL]

"Well that's your opinion and you're entitled to it but I'm not gonna like some no-talent, charisma-free nobody just because everybody else does."

[Anybody Thrilla]

I wonder if the new breed of hipster smarks ever crush two cans of PBR together like Steve Austin.

[Innovator]

They only do it ironically.

[Mr. Nerfect]

My booking of a Ziggler/Riley feud:

* Dolph Ziggler beats Alex Riley on RAW next week to retain the US Title after Vickie Guerrero pulls a leg of Riley, or something, which allows Ziggler to capitalise with the Zig Zag.

* Riley confronts Triple H and tells him that he wants Ziggler again. "You've got it, pal." Ziggler vs. Riley for the US Title at SummerSlam -- but it'll be Riley's last shot at the title.

* Riley brings up Shaul Guerrero as his valet to cancel-out the Vickie factor. This really messes with Vickie's head, and at SummerSlam, Riley manages to hit his Hit the Showers for the three count to become the new United States Champion.

* Dolph and Vickie are upset. Ziggler wants his rematch, and will get it at Night of Champions. Prior to that, you Riley & Shaul going over Dolph & Vickie, and Shaul beating Vickie. The matches won't be pretty, but they will be over.

* Riley beats Ziggler at Night of Champions to retain the US Title with his TKO. The story here is that Ziggler has the Implant DDT scouted, but Riley manages to use a back-up finishing move to put Ziggler down for the three. It shows that Ziggler is savvy, while putting over Riley clean.

* They can blow-off their feud on RAW in a 2/3 Falls Match. Ziggler gets the first fall, which is a good way to make Ziggler look good moving on from this, but Riley gets the next two and goes over quite strong in his feud with Ziggler. Depending on what sort of stories they have going on elsewhere at this time, this could take place at one of the October PPVs. Or perhaps a match where Ziggler manages to secure the stipulation of his choosing. He chooses a Submission Match, which forces Riley to show off a different side to his game.

[captaincharismark]

Are you saying you would prefer the matches to be over-the-top and nonsensical? I'm not asking that to be a dick, but just trying to gauge your interest. One of the biggest critiques of wrestling over the years is that it's obviously predetermined and often cheesy. Ziggler matches always seem more 'legitimate' to me, and he makes it easier to suspend disbelief. I also find it difficult to buy that Ziggler isn't innovative. He's constantly doing things that I haven't seen before or adding a new twist on old traditions.

Actually, I don't prefer the matches to be over the top or nonsensical. Being predetermined has nothing to do with it either. I've always valued the art of wrestling and the stories it tells. Judging it for being predetermined would be ignorant if you've been watching for any length of time. Obviously calling it "fake" would be a dismissive way of ignoring what wrestling is. Ziggler's matches are sound from a psychological standpoint, but they aren't watchable to me. As far as him being innovative, he does a few moves I haven't seen, but otherwise shouldn't be considered an innovator. I'll admit he's got a unique style, but he's not a very exciting wrestler or character.

His name is pretty much a moot point. It doesn't detract from what he does in the ring. Honestly, the cheesy nature of his name seems like it would be right up your alley, seeing as to how you apparently aren't a fan of making things seem too real.

I was actually agreeing with you there. WWE creative is a joke as far as naming wrestlers. It has nothing to do with seeming real. You assuming b/c I don't like Ziggler I'm not a fan of realism is a far stretch. The fact is I do like realistic wrestling, but being bland and boring in the ring is where my problem with him comes in. There's a difference between "suspending disbelief" and putting the crowd to sleep. As far as that goes, "suspending disbelief" and being realistic are polor opposites, so it's one or the other. He's either over the top or he portrays realism. Ziggler sure isn't over the top, so I agree it is more realistic, but in a very boring kinda way.


What's wrong with hiding flaws? They're letting him showcase what he's GOOD at and not forcing his weaknesses down our throats. It's a pretty sound strategy, and we should honestly be thankful they are employing it. This tactic was what made Paul Heyman a wrestling deity.

The main issue with hiding flaws is it's ignoring the problems he has. To limit him on the mic to two words isn't gonna help him improve. He hasn't really had much mic time, so to limit him already is a bad move. Most of his career, someone else has done his talking. For all we know, he might eventually be a good mic worker. If they hide his flaws, they also take a shortcut and ensure he'll never be any better than he is now...

You don't NEED to be great on the mic to be a top guy (read: Goldberg, Brock Lesnar, The Undertaker, Lex Luger, Yokozuna, Bret Hart, Rey Mysterio, etc.), even though it would definitely help. It's not necessary, though. There's no reason to pretend he's great when he's not. Just let him go on and continue putting on wrestling clinics, like he has been doing. He's perfectly capable of being a top guy in TODAY'S WWE.

It's not necessarily mandatory to have great mic skills, but it helps. However, it is mandatory to be good enough to get your storyline over. Ziggler has to rely on two words, Vickie Guerrero, or his opponent to carry him on the mic. I'll grant you WWE is partly to blame there, but Ziggler has to step up and not be complacent.

As far as Vickie, she didn't do a single thing this past Monday besides stand at ringside. Sure they were using her heat at first, but Dolph seems to really be coming into his own as of late. Just because Shawn Michaels used Sherri's heat at first doesn't mean he was a shitty entertainer.

She didn't do much Monday, but she sure has been doing most all of his talking for him. Using her heat should be an advantage, for Ziggler though it hasn't benefited him. Which is a shame since he's a pretty decent heel. Shawn Michaels may have capitalized on Sherri's heat, but he evolved on the mic and became a good mic worker. Something thus far Ziggler has not and it the difference between being great and only decent...




I guess I would have to ask you what some of your favorite matches of all time are. Before you even answer, I'm willing to bet that they were longer than most matches and pretty well thought out.

My favorites are ones that are entertaining while doing a good job of wrestling. And yeah, some are longer although the ones I like don't put me to sleep. Being a great match doesn't mean having a strategy. You think guys like Bret Hart, Austin, The Rock, Angle, Undertaker, Benoit, Guerrero and HBK had to use that to get over??? I admired all those guys more b/c they didn't have to plan the match down to every detail. They pretty much went out and did it on the fly. You can tell with Ziggler his matches are meticulously planned, with only makes his matches more boring.



You said that having Vickie as a manager meant that you weren't a good entertainer. That's simply not true. It's not like Edge was some extreme outlier. The only other person to compare anything Vickie-related to is Eric Escobar, and I'm kinda furious that I've just been reminded of his existence.

When she does most all of your talking it's not a good thing. And yeah, it does say to me that you aren't a good entertainer if she talks 90% of the time for you. At least Edge did all his own talking for himself and was entertaining enough to stand on his own. It's clear using Vickie as a mouthpiece was the intention WWE had to hide Ziggler's inability on the mic. As for Eric Escobar, I was also hoping to never hear that name again. He's another good example though of someone WWE paired with Vickie to talk for him...


I wasn't actually accusing you of not knowing wrestling, you dork. I was ribbing you a bit and making a point. I feel I've earned that right by now, since this definitely isn't the first go-round we've had on the boards. I swear, not everything is a personal attack.

It sure sounded like you said I didn't know wrestling. I've actually been watching close to 20 years, so I think I have some insight on wrestling. Ribbing me b/c you think it's your right proves nothing. All that does is make you look more immature and attempting to make it personal. I could care less if you think I'm a dork, as I call it like I see it. I'm sure this won't be the last time we don't see eye to eye, but I always try to be objective rather than focusing on winning an argument...


As far as Ziggler being stuck in the mid card, he's already been a World Heavyweight champion, so somebody (that mattered) somewhere at least saw a little something in him. He's clearly being groomed for the future.

He was champion for what, 5 minutes??? You can't really count that fluke win as WWE thinking he's the future. He may be groomed for the future, but that doesn't mean he's ready for it. And if he impressed someone that mattered, more power to them. That will hardly change his progress so far lacking or my current opinion of him. Just b/c WWE pushes someone as the future doesn't mean I like them. They earn my respect when they can be something more than one dimensional...



Why does it always seem to come back to the all-time greats with you? I was even more careful with my wording of this thread title as to not get you up in arms about it (you're welcome).

The reason I do that is to gauge how well a superstar is progressing. While I realize he needs more time to be considered in that league, his evolution(or lack thereof)hasn't been too fast. If you felt you had to censor your wording b/c of me, I feel sorry for you. Having discussions on topics is the only way to objectively view things. Too often ppl on here let their bias toward a wrestler bind them from discussing something objectively. I'm more than willing to say why I do or don't support someone or something. I can understand you not agreeing with me, but trying to avoid an actual discussion is detrimental to the topic...

Here's the bottom line: Ziggler is very good in the ring. While in the past he was presented as a bit of a joke, the character seems to be coming to the point now where he can be taken as a serious threat, and he can easily become a top player in today's WWE landscape. The only part of that you seem to disagree with is that he is very good in the ring, and to me, that's laughable.

To me the bottom line is Ziggler is nowhere near ready for the ME. He pretty much hasn't evolved any as a character or much as a wrestler. While WWE may use him eventually, IMO he needs vast improvement in order to advance from mid card to main eventer. His in ring work is solid, but not very watchable. I honestly have never paid much attention to anything Dolph Ziggler related, and I think that is telling about how bland and boring he is...

[Corporate CockSnogger]

Speaking of being bland and boring...

[Anybody Thrilla]

A few things:

*I've been discussing the fuck out of this topic with you. What would make you say I'm avoiding an actual discussion?

*Will you please cite some particular examples of matches you really enjoy? Just trying to see where you're coming from.

*When I say that Ziggler has a "strategy", I'm talking from a kayfabe point of view. His character has a gameplan in which to win the match, and that has happened in matches with all of those greats that you listed. I don't think every single move is planned out, and there's really no one here than can tell either of us how much of it is on the fly.

[XL]

It makes me sad that you has to explain that last part. :(

[captaincharismark]

A few things:

*I've been discussing the fuck out of this topic with you. What would make you say I'm avoiding an actual discussion?

You do discuss topics with me, although it seems like to some extent you try to avoid it. Things you say like you properly worded this topic in order to keep me from responding in detail. Can't really have a balanced look at an issue without both sides of a debate. I realize it's long and drawn out to respond point by point, but there's really no other way I see of talking topics out. Alot of times seeing both sides of a topic will give you some new perspective when viewing someone(or something in particular).

*Will you please cite some particular examples of matches you really enjoy? Just trying to see where you're coming from.

The matches I like are guys who can have great matches while keeping the fans attention. Guys like Bret Hart, HBK, HHH, Austin, Rock, Jericho, Angle, or Taker. Any big match or fued those guys had made me a fan on the true art of wrestling. Of course, guys like Brock Lesnar, Goldberg, Nash, Hall and Hogan also had watchable matches, though not all were wrestling clinics.

*When I say that Ziggler has a "strategy", I'm talking from a kayfabe point of view. His character has a gameplan in which to win the match, and that has happened in matches with all of those greats that you listed. I don't think every single move is planned out, and there's really no one here than can tell either of us how much of it is on the fly.

I understand kayfabe, though it's a word I detest. And yeah, the greats had the same happening in their matches, but they presented it in a more exciting and watchable way. Obviously, there's no way to tell which matches are planned meticulously definitively, but it's more an educated guess. Ziggler's matches seem to lack that certain element of excitement that bigger matches have. You can always tell when something special is happening, and for me, Ziggler just doesn't do that.

If ppl can blindly mark for a wrestler, surely the reasons I listed could be considered valid for not liking Ziggler. You might not agree with my logic/reasons, but the fact remains I did attempt to explain my opinion.

[CSL]

please tell me why you 'detest' the word kayfabe

[captaincharismark]

please tell me why you 'detest' the word kayfabe

B/c it's a word that gets thrown around alot by wrestling fans. Fans often talk like they have some insider knowledge on wrestling, when really all we do is speculate with the info we have.

[Kal-El]

"I know Kay Fabian".

[Volare]

http://s3.amazonaws.com/kym-assets/entries/icons/original/000/004/155/CornetteFace.jpg?1287202839

[CSL]

B/c it's a word that gets thrown around alot by wrestling fans. Fans often talk like they have some insider knowledge on wrestling, when really all we do is speculate with the info we have.

But you yourself have spoken about 'psychology' and guys that can 'improv' and 'being innovative' in previous posts in this very thread.

[mike adamle]

Haven't read all of this thread so this may or may not have already been said, but I kind of think they're turning Dolph into an Edge/Jericho like character. Not Rated R Superstar-wise, but just the way that they could always be put in a main event and have it treated like a main event. It took them a while to get to that, but it happened. I feel like Dolph is in the beginning stages of a career like them.

[4 knuckles up]

I've always enjoyed DZ.

<iframe width="425" height="349" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/yH8-eDwTAbU" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

What's not to like about hs in-ring ability?

[Anybody Thrilla]

Haven't read all of this thread so this may or may not have already been said, but I kind of think they're turning Dolph into an Edge/Jericho like character. Not Rated R Superstar-wise, but just the way that they could always be put in a main event and have it treated like a main event. It took them a while to get to that, but it happened. I feel like Dolph is in the beginning stages of a career like them.

Sounds about right.

[captaincharismark]

But you yourself have spoken about 'psychology' and guys that can 'improv' and 'being innovative' in previous posts in this very thread.

Yeah, I have, but I don't try to state my knowledge on wrestling as a fact. Basically, the info I've heard from the wrestlers themselves is what I use when discussing topics. Often here, ppl think they know more than actual wrestling insiders, which is laughable to me. Especially when saying something seems "legitimate" or in kayfabe. Personally, it's serves as an irritation to me....

[XL]

Seems like an odd gripe.

It's not even as much an insider term as shoot, work, face, heel for example. The scenario that bugs you (people coming off like they know more than actual insiders) doesn't even apply to kayfabe IMO.

To say Undertaker and Kane are kayfabe brothers is undisputable fact. Where as relaying backstage gossip as fact is totally different.

[Jordan]

Dude I am the quintessential wrestling fan, for instance I just spent 50 bucks yesterday on WWE DVD's instead of streaming them. So you better fucking take my word when I say that Dolph Ziggler's name is the shit and so is his in ring ability.

Dolph is the perfect fusion of Curt Henning and Billy Gunn, it's going to make money motha fuckaaaaa, I just wonder where they will work him in.

I personally think Dolph/Orton or Dolph/Punk or Dolph/Cena or Dolph/Del Rio in a main event scenario would be match of the year candidates more than likely.

[Jordan]

Yeah, I have, but I don't try to state my knowledge on wrestling as a fact. Basically, the info I've heard from the wrestlers themselves is what I use when discussing topics. Often here, ppl think they know more than actual wrestling insiders, which is laughable to me. Especially when saying something seems "legitimate" or in kayfabe. Personally, it's serves as an irritation to me....

There are facts dude, FACT Hogan and Flair ruled in the 80's and were awesome.

Tell me that's not a fact and I swear we got a fisticuffs match on our hands

[Volare]

I call referee.

[Anybody Thrilla]

Yeah, I have, but I don't try to state my knowledge on wrestling as a fact. Basically, the info I've heard from the wrestlers themselves is what I use when discussing topics. Often here, ppl think they know more than actual wrestling insiders, which is laughable to me. Especially when saying something seems "legitimate" or in kayfabe. Personally, it's serves as an irritation to me....

See, I view 'kayfabe' as the plane in which everything in wrestling is to be accepted as 'real'. If someone has a kayfabe strategy, it may be something along the lines of 'my opponent injured his knee in a match last week, so I will gear my offense towards that injured knee'. That same person's REAL motivation would be more along the lines of 'I would like to have an entertaining match with my opponent tonight, and I hope we hit all of our spots'.

All of my references in this thread to Ziggler's 'strategy' in matches were based on the kayfabe version that I have just explained here. I wouldn't ever claim to know how much of any of it was ACTUALLY planned step-by-step or whatever, though.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Has someone torn into captaincharismark for suggesting that it means nothing that the WWE gave Dolph Ziggler the World Heavyweight Title -- even if only for five minutes. Do you really think the WWE would give a guy they didn't think was World Champion material the World Championship? To me, it says "You know what, kid -- you're so fucking good, we're going to give you this now -- but you'll have a proper run someday."

[Rock Bottom]

Also, Vickie with Dolph is a face turn in the bank. Random thought.

[Supreme Olajuwon]

IMO Dolph Ziggler is the best wrestler in the WWE right now. Better than Christian, better than Bryan, and yes even better than Punk. If he can bring his character anywhere close to matching his in ring ability, he will be legendary.

[Volare]

Also, Vickie with Dolph is a face turn in the bank. Random thought.

[Anybody Thrilla]

Has someone torn into captaincharismark for suggesting that it means nothing that the WWE gave Dolph Ziggler the World Heavyweight Title -- even if only for five minutes. Do you really think the WWE would give a guy they didn't think was World Champion material the World Championship? To me, it says "You know what, kid -- you're so fucking good, we're going to give you this now -- but you'll have a proper run someday."

I mentioned it.

[Rock Bottom]

Bumping this guy since it has three pages and I don't want to litter (ANY MORE THAN I ALREADY HAVE)

There have been a few stories talking about DZ receiving praise backstage for his efforts. I really agree with them. He really looks like he's going to be ready relatively soon. Since he has the heat magnet Vickie Guerrero in his corner, not only will this continue to benefit him heat-wise, but if he were to turn on her (somewhere down the road) it would immediately get him over. He has plenty of time, too. Really think Ziggler is going to be a mega star in the company.

I think he's been booked very well, his promos have drastically improved (not that they were ever that bad), and people are taking the guy seriously. He still carries himself like a classic heel, but I think a pattern has been established and fans are not going to expect him to be a loser. This is a sweet spot.

So far, I'm pretty happy with Ziggler working his way up in a way that makes sense. I hope they continue what they're doing, letting him grow without pulling the trigger on just tossing him out into the main event. I also hope that they don't try to schedule this guy around the next MITB. Just let him happen.

The US title looks pretty good right now.

That being said, what would you guys do with Ziggler in the next few months?

[Rock Bottom]

Also:

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/GC0u-ySiumc" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[Corporate CockSnogger]

Ziggler is definitely in my FAVE FIVE right now. He's been on fire for a very long time.

I'm enjoying his mic work a lot too. I like the little sly digs he throws in like when he confronted Jackman.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Ziggler is going to be a guy one day, no doubt about it in my mind. You hear nothing about the attitude problems that keep guys like John Morrison down. He plays the dick-weed heel so well, and I find myself literally marking out for some of his random Twitter posts. He's great at making guys look good, too, which is always a great asset to have.

I loved the dude when he was on NXT. Probably my favourite Pro there ever, actually. The way he's just get on the live mic and look for whatever reason he could to chew out the babyface rookies. "Did you just drop the American flag?!? Communist!"

I'm not sure how the dude is progressing on the mic, but if he gets to that level where he's a good mic worker, I can't see any reason why you wouldn't want this guy at the top of your card.

Also, I love it that the last two times Ziggler has won a championship, he's shouted out "THIS IS MINE FOREVER!!!!!!" :lol:

[Mr. Nerfect]

I truly think Ziggler "gets it," too. He works against the internet, trying to antagonise them more than anything, sticking to his heel role; but he manages to do so in an entertaining way.

Plus, for a guy that is kayfabe billed as someone that would have been accepted into the Cruiserweight Division when it was around, I don't find myself thinking of Ziggler as a "small guy." He carries himself in a small guy way the same that Shawn Michaels. Not trying to say that Ziggler is as good as HBK, or that he has to be, but just that for a guy who technically doesn't have size on his side -- it doesn't really seem like it matters shit-all.

[Mr. Nerfect]

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/xvKHT376H6E" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

At about the 41 second mark... :love:

For a casual fan, it would have been so satisfying to see Ziggler lose the belt mere minutes later. Glorious.

[XL]

I hope they keep him away from a MitB cash-in Title win. Pretty tired on them "making" guys with the briefcase. It'd be nice to see them "make" someone new/young without it.

[wwe2222]

Dolph is one of the only reasons I tune in nowadays. I had hoped he would win the tag belts, as I think having two different titles could have really been good for his character.

[ZosoMetalManiac]

Dolph Ziggler is awesome. Plain and simple. He is easily one of my favorite wrestlers these days. He has the look. He has the charisma. He has the skills. If he continues to grow and improve, he will be in the main event picture for sure, and I can't wait.

[Innovator]

I asked him something on Archer and he replied to me on twitter, so he's good in my book.

[Anybody Thrilla]

His mic work is getting good now too.

[Rock Bottom]

I agree with most of what's said, especially the quotation marks around "making," because of the fact that it has not worked for everyone so far. If the guy's getting there on his own, don't follow a risky formula. Then again, Ziggler doesn't strike me as the kind of dude that would fail to benefit from a briefcase push. But I feel that you can only have so many briefcase winners before the commodity wears off.

[Anybody Thrilla]

I don't really think there's anything wrong with becoming a champion via MitB cash-in.

[Mr. Nerfect]

I don't think so either, Thrilla, especially considering the ice has already been broken with Ziggler, and he is technically a former World Heavyweight Champion. That being said, I think Ziggler might be "too big" for a Money in the Bank briefcase right now. He's so much a sure thing, I don't think he'll need to be elevated via MITB next July.

[Anybody Thrilla]

But will there be anyone else ready for the case around that time? Edge never needed it, nor did CM Punk need it twice, but sometimes it's the best idea.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Edge was always going to win the briefcase first time around (although I was hoping for a Jericho win, silly me). CM Punk was the logical choice to win each year he did, too. That being said, I wouldn't complain about Dolph Ziggler winning the briefcase. The dude could already be World Heavyweight Champion by then, or something, is all I'm saying.

Personally, I'd like to see Swagger with the briefcase again. As for first time winners? Wade Barrett would make a tremendous pick for a heel MITB winner. Then you've also got Cody Rhodes on the rise, and even Christian would be great as a wormy MITB winner next year.

[Anybody Thrilla]

How do you figured that Edge was 'always going to win'? I don't recall that period crystal clearly, but I do remember thinking that there were a few potential winners in that match.

Christian would be perfect for the case next year, and an even better candidate to lose his shot, if they were planning on keeping him a heel.

[Anybody Thrilla]

Also, Punk wasn't the clear cut either time. The first time was a shock, really. I thought he'd end up with the ECW title. The second time, I thought he'd be the first to lose.

[Rock Bottom]

I'm not totally against MITB, like that matters, but I kinda hope Zigg isn't the kind of guy to win the case and then lose. It'd set him back some, I think. Unless, somehow, Swagger uses it to start some shit, saying he didn't screw up his shot with MITB, resulting in some kinda face push for Zigg. I don't really care if he's a face or heel honestly, but it wouldn't be a bad way to go, so I guess I'll just remain neutral. He'll still be wrestling either way, doesn't look like an easy guy to hold back.

[Volare]

Can't think of the last time someone has wrestled in more than one match (not including Royal Rumble) Since Triple H/Orton did it with the Title Changes.

[Volare]

And for the record, I DO listen to Dolph's theme every day I go to work. Gets me in a good mood.

[What Would Kevin Do?]

Nah, keep Dolph away from MitB. You want to make him huge, keep pushing the Miz how he's being pushed. Have him win the title. The Miz is awesome, and the fans will ultimately turn him face. So, when he wins the belt, have it built up like the new administration is going to make The Miz the face of the WWE. Instead, the night after, when he's doing his thing, have Dolph beat the hell out of him, and basically become the corporate poster boy against the "rebel" esque Miz.

[Anybody Thrilla]

....what?

[Mr. Nerfect]

How do you figured that Edge was 'always going to win'? I don't recall that period crystal clearly, but I do remember thinking that there were a few potential winners in that match.

Christian would be perfect for the case next year, and an even better candidate to lose his shot, if they were planning on keeping him a heel.

I'm pretty sure everyone was picking Edge to win the briefcase in the first match. Edge still had a perfect Mania track record at that point in time, and he was clearly the guy that they were giving upwards momentum to.

I called Punk both years using a process of elimination. It seemed like Jeff Hardy might have had a shot in the first, but he got suspended and Punk seemed like a fine choice. Chris Jericho was already a main event dude, and had been sort of lost at that point in time; Mr. Kennedy had won it the previous year and botched his first run; Shelton Benjamin never won the things; Carlito and John Morrison were both pretty random additions to the match, with Morrison being in the tag team scene at the time. MVP was the only other dude with a really good shot at being made with the match, but Matt Hardy was slated to return and feud with MVP -- so it made perfect sense for Matt to cost MVP the match, which is exactly what happened.

The following year, CM Punk was in there with Finlay, Kane and Mark Henry -- who were all veteran presences to keep the match flowing (and added power to the match, in the case of Kane and Henry). MVP had cooled off a lot more than he had been the previous year, and Shelton Benjamin was still Shelton Benjamin. A lot of people thought Christian had a chance, but he had just returned to the WWE from TNA -- there was no way Vince was going to shoot him straight to the moon.

Jack Swagger winning the next year was an absolute shocker to me, though -- I'll say that much. Prior to the show, anyway. Although, the moment Swagger came out you could tell he was winning the match. Weird.

[Mr. Nerfect]

The way this thread had gone has really made me want to see Ziggler win some sort of Money in the Bank briefcase at WrestleMania (perhaps a 20-Man Battle Royal featuring "name" guys like Big Show, Kane, Mark Henry, Sheamus, Swagger, Wade Barrett, etc.) and then cash in his title shot that night against a victorious Daniel Bryan.

Dolph Ziggler vs. Daniel Bryan (getting his rematch) vs. Randy Orton (also getting his rematch) at Extreme Rules would be awesome, and you know this. Then, Orton can get drafted back to RAW, and Bryan can beat the SmackDown! drafted Jack Swagger en route to facing Ziggler one-on-one.

[Anybody Thrilla]

I'm all for any scenario that would give me more Ziggler/Bryan matches.

[Mr. Nerfect]

I truthfully feel that they could be "the guys" on SmackDown!. Orton and Sheamus can go back to RAW, where they love to stack the shows, and Ziggler/Bryan can tear it up on the blue brand for a few months.

[Xero]

Ziggler is the goods.

Just thought I'd say/reiterate that.

[Snowden]

Methinks that Ziggles drops the strap to Mason Ryan at Survivor Series, and starts his main event ascent soon after. Don't see him carrying the US title into a big feud ala Rhodes on SD (he's held it since June, after all, and there's midcard guys who could use the strap more than Ziggler if he moves on to bigger and better things). Would love if he started feuding with Big Show once he gets done with Henry...Show is still technically a Raw wrestler, and would be a great face to put Ziggler over (via heelish tactics) and make him legit.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Personally, I don't think Ziggler should drop the US Title to Mason Ryan. If I had to have Ziggler drop the belt to someone, I would choose Brodus Clay. Have Vickie Guerrero sign on Clay as muscle for Ziggler/Swagger, and when Clay helps Ziggler beat Ryan, he's all "Now I want a shot."

Clay has just got more charisma and is in a better position to be a monster face, in my opinion.

[GD]

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_8x6pe2tdHyg/TM1eumID2xI/AAAAAAAAABo/WS86hsc4-9E/s1600/Spirit+Squad.jpg

http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/slides/photos/000/402/816/ziggler_display_image.jpg?1284954231

http://prorasslin.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/ziggler-champ.jpg?w=270&h=378

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a0/Dolph_Ziggler_2011_United_States_Champion.jpg/450px-Dolph_Ziggler_2011_United_States_Champion.jpg

Triple Crown Champion?

[Mr. Nerfect]

I don't think the WWE officially recognises Ziggler as a World Tag Team Champion, despite him defending the belts under the Freebird rule.

[GD]

http://www.wwe.com/inside/titlehistory/worldtagteam/2448432

After winning the World Tag Team Championship at Taboo Tuesday 2005, it seemed the team of Kane & Big Show was unstoppable. However, on RAW the night after WrestleMania 22, that theory was nullified when Spirit Squad members Kenny & Mikey defeated the monstrous pair to become World Tag Team Champions.

With the referee inadvertently knocked out, the other three members of the Spirit Squad stepped in to help. With Kane lying on the arena floor, the brash quintet lifted up Big Show for a massive flapjack slam. Kenny then climbed the top rope, and after hitting a breathtaking Guillotine Legdrop, he covered Big Show to get the three count and the gold.

[GD]

So technically, Kenny Dykstra and Mikey!!! won the tag belts. Makes sense.

[GD]

I have been a huge Dolph Ziggler mark since his match against Daniel Bryan at Bragging Rights 2010. I absolutely adore his in-ring capabilities, he sells like it's nobody's business. He is actually better than Randy Orton at being arrogant and cocky.

I hope that he makes the super kick his finishing maneuver and gets a decent reign as World Heavyweight Champion or WWE Champion.

[Mr. Nerfect]

As I said, my ideal SmackDown! post-Mania XXVIII would have Dolph Ziggler have cashed in some sort of MITB prize on Daniel Bryan after he defeats Randy Orton in what would hopefully be a classic for the World Heavyweight Title. You could even have Ziggler Superkick Shawn Michaels, who could be at ringside to watch his protoge win gold, for more effect.

Bryan is obviously pissed, but Orton also has a rematch scheduled. Teddy Long confirms a Triple Threat at Extreme Rules, where Swagger gets involved and helps Ziggler pin Orton. Randy then gets drafted to RAW and beats Swagger before Jack's drafted either on the main show or via supplementary draft.

To earn another shot at Ziggler, Bryan has to go through Swagger, which could be a great match in and of its own. Perhaps you can have Big Show step-in as a challenger to Ziggler at Over the Limit, with Bryan facing Swagger earlier on the card. Bryan makes Swagger submit, and Ziggler beats Big Show in a match to solidify his credibility as World Heavyweight Champ.

Capitol Punishment, or whatever PPV they have replacing it, takes place next, and there Ziggler get himself intentionally disqualified after a match that gets plenty of time, highlighting the fact (in the commentator's eyes), that Ziggler can't beat Bryan straight-up. In the meantime, Ziggler could take exception to comments from Booker T, and beat him to keep looking strong against everyone not named Daniel Bryan.

Money in the Bank has Ziggler and Bryan meet up in a No Holds Barred Match, in which weapons wouldn't so much be the story as Ziggler no longer having an out, and Bryan being able to stretch him using even the ropes. There, Bryan wins back the World Heavyweight Title after using some sick submission move he keeps on even after Ziggler gets to the ropes. The irony of the story being that Bryan wins the title back from Ziggler at a PPV called "Money in the Bank."

I'd be tempted to have the SmackDown! Money in the Bank Winner at that PPV come down and cash in on Bryan again, but that might be screwing Bryan around too much. Instead, have the briefcase holder watching, teasing a match between the two. SmackDown! sees Ziggler calling Bryan out for not being able to beat him without using the ropes, and basically being a smug heel putting shit on Bryan, trying to make him prove himself by getting under his skin.

One last match at SummerSlam. Ziggler can't get himself DQ'd, because Bryan is the champ, and there Bryan can get the clean submission victory and cement himself as World Heavyweight Champion.

[XL]

http://www.wwe.com/inside/titlehistory/worldtagteam/2448432
That wasn't "Dolph Ziggler".

[DLVH84]

Since getting rid of the Spirit Squad, Dolph has been very consistent on his own. Vicky and Jack are holding him down.

[Rock Bottom]

I really don't agree, Vickie had a lot to do with getting Dolph where he is right now. That's not to say he couldn't on his own, but she got him a lot of heat, and still does. Swagger is there to make Ziggler look even better.

[Corporate CockSnogger]

Yeah I really like what they're doing with Ziggler, Vickie and Swagger. I like how Ziggler didn't want Vickie to have any clients other than himself but Swagger proved that he was a useful ally. It seemed as though they were looking to turn Ziggler at that point but I'm pretty glad they never.

[Lock Jaw]

Vickie is nowhere near as prominent as she used to be. I agree that she used to kind of "hurt" Dolph because she was getting all the heat.

She has taken a step back though, and allowed Dolph to collect some of that heat for himself now.

[Anybody Thrilla]

Dolph definitely gets busy on his own nowadays, and the fact that they let him wrestle TWICE on a PPV is exciting business.

[Blakeamus]

Dolph definitely gets busy on his own nowadays, and the fact that they let him wrestle TWICE on a PPV is exciting business.

http://www.datazap.net/sites/skupen/Gifs/Like%20a%20Boss.gif

[Anybody Thrilla]

"So I'm out there looking shredded and stealing the show, as usual..."

[Blakeamus]

I can definately see 2012 the year of Ziggler's rise to WWE/World Heavyweight champion. By Summerslam, if not sooner.

[GD]

If the WWE were to unify the WWE Championship and the World Heavyweight Championship, he would be the ideal person to do it.

[Blakeamus]

Without a doubt...

[Volare]

Giggity. Just the thought of it.

[GD]

http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/slides/photos/001/022/839/nemeth_display_image.jpg?1308277077

[RiX1024]

One day a good guy will embarrass Dolph Ziggler by putting that video up with Kerwin White or him in Spirit Squad.....NICKY!!!!! (reminds me when a face put a Stand Back vid to embarrass Vince McMahon)

[Jordan]

I wanted to make a thread to say this but I remembered this one.

I think Dolph Ziggler is the best wrestler in WWE right now.

[Anybody Thrilla]

I thought I'd bump this to remind people that Ziggler is better than Lance Storm. Also, how many slight alterations have they made to his theme so far? It sounds like they made it a little less aggressive.

[Iop]

Ziggler should be declared the "best wrestler in the known history of mankind" and then the WWE should close when he retires because anything else would be inferior.

[Gertner]

I thought I'd bump this to remind people that Ziggler is better than Lance Storm. Also, how many slight alterations have they made to his theme so far? It sounds like they made it a little less aggressive.

He's 10x better than Storm.

[Anybody Thrilla]

Ziggler should be declared the "best wrestler in the known history of mankind" and then the WWE should close when he retires because anything else would be inferior.

That's an idea.

[St. Jimmy]

Ziggler is as charasmatic as Steve Austin in WCW, he's as big of workhorse as HBK, he hits from the top rope just as good as Brian Pillman, and he has the voice/promo skills of Ric Flair. The guy is easily what should be pushed as the next big guy.

[St. Jimmy]

Unlike Rob Conway, he actually has it all.

[Anybody Thrilla]

Just...look at him. Ain't he a sight to see? The whole damn world wants to look like him. But they don't. So just...look at him.

[Mr. Nerfect]

I'm enjoying the approach the WWE is taking with Ziggler. They are presenting him as a legitimately super-talented workhorse, who just happens to be a heel and is aligned with Vickie Guerrero. The guy is getting plenty of heat, but it'll be so easy to turn the dude face and sell "Follow that!" t-shirts.

[TheChamp]

Ziggler is as charasmatic as Steve Austin in WCW, he's as big of workhorse as HBK, he hits from the top rope just as good as Brian Pillman, and he has the voice/promo skills of Ric Flair. The guy is easily what should be pushed as the next big guy.


I always compared Ziggler to Stunning Steve Austin, right down to the look, with the vest and blond hair, and the in-ring ability. On a side note, I always trip out by the way he sells moves, like he really gettin' the hell beat out of him. I really hope they do push him properly.

[Haze]

Ziggler is hard to top right now. It even seems that those in charge know what they have with him since he has been featured twice in a night on 2 consecutive PPV's. I can easily see 2012 being a huge year for Ziggler.

[XL]

OK, Thrilla wanted to talk about Ziggler for "a bit". That was nearly 4 months ago.

Let's all move on. Next topic.

:shifty:

[Mr. Nerfect]

I'd mark out for a random Royal Rumble win for Ziggler. I don't know how he would fit into whatever plans they have; but I'd just mark out for it.

[Droford]

Ziggler should be declared the "best wrestler in the known history of mankind" and then the WWE should close when he retires because anything else would be inferior.

as long as you have Mick Foley as Mankind walking behind him in the background with his head down depressed looking as the announcement is made..

[Droford]

oh and yeah, definitely looking forward to Punk/Dolph in a ladder match at TLC. Title vs Title even maybe..

[Juan]

What? Punk vs Dolph isn't happening at TLC

[Droford]

Why not?

[Anybody Thrilla]

Yeah, Juan. Why not?

[Anybody Thrilla]

(When is TLC? Is that next?)

[Droford]

yeah, and its in Baltimore

[Anybody Thrilla]

Are you going?

[Gertner]

Yeah, Juan. Why not?

Juan will probbaly delete the match from the card. Friggen spic.

[Droford]

Are you going?

thought about it but no

[Aguakate]

I have realized lately that Dolph Ziggler and Randy Orton kinda look alike.

[Droford]

http://www.pwpix.net/superstars/r/randyorton/images/randy-orton.jpg

http://www.tiptoptens.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/dolph-ziggler.jpg

look like they were separated at birth!

[Aguakate]

I'm not saying they're identical, just that when they both do their promos, they kinda do look alike. When they talk.

[Corporate CockSnogger]

Everyone mentioned that when Ziggler briefly had his natural brown hair earlier this year.

[SlickyTrickyDamon]

No more @heelziggler probably :(.

[Aguakate]

Everyone mentioned that when Ziggler briefly had his natural brown hair earlier this year.

Well, at least I'm not the only one who thinks so.

[Dirk Ziggler]

Ziggler can take a bump and sell a move like nobody I've seen in awhile. It reminds me of a young Shawn Michaels for some reason

[XCaliber]

Not sure that I'm digging the direction that his character is taking it almost feels like he's taken a step back rather than forward. They went ahead and gave him a new moniker yet he still has that ridiculous name I mean what's so wrong with Nick Nemeth? With that said I still don't take him that seriously as a contender for the WWE title at all despite having some great matches on RAW as of late.

[Blakeamus]

When he was having matches with Orton, Edge, and even Cena awhile back...my views of him changed. I am a fan of his work and believe he is without a doubt world championship material. Ziggler is the goods.

[Dirk Ziggler]

I would love to see a Ziggler push

[Lock Jaw]

http://gifsoup.com/view6/3185146/ziggler-handstand-o.gif

"How damn good am I?!"

[Anybody Thrilla]

I love when he yells "I..AM TOO..GOOD...AT THIS!".

[Lock Jaw]

I like his new theme, and "show-off" moniker as well. Managed to get rid of the "Perfection" lines without ruining the theme.

Makes more sense too. Technically, if they "broke the mold" when they made him, he is not Perfection. He is an abnormality.

[Anybody Thrilla]

"We did it perfectly! Get rid of the diagram"

[Corporate CockSnogger]

I can see him challenging Punk for the title at Royal Rumble, which would be great.

[Nicky Fives]

Ziggler can take a bump and sell a move like nobody I've seen in awhile. It reminds me of a young Shawn Michaels for some reason

:yes:

[Damndirty]

I remember the Monday before when Johnny Ace made the match Punk vs. Ziggler instead of Del Rio, I was at first disappointed, but after seeing that match and then the Del Rio rematch, I have to say I was very impressed with the Ziggler match more. Punk and Ziggler put on a helluva show and actually made me want to sit through the whole performance. Kudos to Punk for making people actually "fight" for the championship instead of having the opponent "help" you put the STF on them (via Big Show).

[Damndirty]

Btw, not that I'm checkin his ass out of anything, but #Heel on the tights was a good creative move. It makes it seem like they're trying to stop insulting the intelligence of the fans. I mean seriously... when was the last time we seen a Heel vs. Heel or Face vs. Face match?

[Corporate CockSnogger]

You were def checking his ass out

[Mr. Nerfect]

Some of Ziggler's recent heel antics have cracked me up.

[Damndirty]

Didn't he use to be a cheerleader or something?

[XL]

Nah. You're thinking of Nick Nemeth who was "Nicky" in the Spirit Squad.

[addy2hotty]

'The Blueprint' Nicky Ziggler

[Damndirty]

Reason I asked cuz he put it on Twitter:
@HEELZiggler Bikini Bottom, TRANSYLVANIA...
Inspiration for FX show 'Archer'! Improv genius, mathlete, former: child star, caddy, "cheerleader", brunette, oh and World Heavyweight Champion, whatevs

[Damndirty]

Also heard he's gonna be in an anal sex vid with Vicky! Top that one, Waltman!

[Anybody Thrilla]

Also heard he's gonna be in an anal sex vid with Vicky! Top that one, Waltman!

I think you mean "FOLLOW THAT!".

[Triple Naitch]

He told BRAZZERS that he won't get in bed for anything less than $10,000.

[Damndirty]

And then they told him,"Well, Mr.... uh... Cock Wiggler, the thing is... we already promised half the cut to Mr. Jack Shagger for the double-fucking-of-Vicky's-nostrils scene. Can't go back on our word, you know!" And then he asked,"Can
I still reenact the Deliverance piggy scene when I get to the climax?" They're like,"Well... I guess that's okay. Why not?"

[Anybody Thrilla]

Stop this

[Damndirty]

EXCUSE ME!!!

[XL]

On top of everything else, Dolph is fluent in American Sign Language.

[Mr. Nerfect]

That's because Dolph's the man.

I don't know why, but given that he's a heel, I just imagined a storyline where Dolph started showing up with a deaf girl, who turned out to be his new girlfriend. He signs the nicest things to her, but then gets on the microphone and makes fun of her to epic heat. :-\

Sort of like Jamie Noble and Nidia when Nidia was blind.