Why is Randy Orton not a Top Player?

[el bobbo]

The guy is over right now more than anything. But he is relegated to Smackdown. He is often said to be the 2 or 3 guy in the whole business right now and his matches are always great.-

He can bring a fresh air of "I dont give a fuck" to Raw which would make the shows a lot better if he got some mic time.

Have him in a real feud against Punk or DB would be instant gold. Why try to use him to elevate Sheamus when you could have him in real feuds that matter?

[#BROKEN Hasney]

He was stale on Raw last time and what better way to give Smackdown a shot in the arm than send your #2 guy over there and then have a tremendous feud with a freshly elevated Christian? Then he brought pace into his matches on top of everything and I really enjoyed it.

Although his feud with Kane was shit, he's been fantastic otherwise and there is no need to change anything up right now. Probably the best booked face right now since he's really the only one they've booked to not lose their edge once they've turned.

He's also on Raw most weeks, so I don't know what "changing brand" would actually do. Especially as one of the feuds you suggest is with a "Smackdown guy" in terms of Daniel Bryan.

[Juan]

He was stale on Raw last time and what better way to give Smackdown a shot in the arm than send your #2 guy over there and then have a tremendous feud with a freshly elevated Christian? Then he brought pace into his matches on top of everything and I really enjoyed it.

Although his feud with Kane was shit, he's been fantastic otherwise and there is no need to change anything up right now. Probably the best booked face right now since he's really the only one they've booked to not lose their edge once they've turned.

He's also on Raw most weeks, so I don't know what "changing brand" would actually do. Especially as one of the feuds you suggest is with a "Smackdown guy" in terms of Daniel Bryan.

This

[St. Jimmy]

He comes off as a generic face, he doesn't do anything special.

[MoFo]

Hes brilliant, should be in Danielsons place on Raw.

[Tazz Dan]

Was gonna make a thread on Orton after watching Smackdown tonight. I can't see why the guy is so over. I'm not saying he's shit or anything, I just can't get into him, kinda like Kofi.

[Innovator]

Lately he's been too injury prone to put a lot of stock in.

[SlickyTrickyDamon]

Pushes sometimes come in cycles. There can only be one world champion on Smackdown and Raw at a time.

He's being kept somewhat relevant until they decide to give him another World Title push. Same thing happened to Alberto Del Rio after WrestleMania 27. Push cooled down a bit to heat up at Money In the bank and Summerslam to capture the title.

[Keith]

He's been given every opportunity by the WWE to really take off and get to "that level" alongside Stone Cold Steve Austin, The Rock, Undertaker, etc (Legendary status). Yet he hasn't. I wouldn't even put him in the same category as John Cena, to be honest.

The guy is over and all that, but he's not at "that" level. And quite frankly, if he hasn't gotten there yet, I doubt he ever will. And I believe it's got to do with the fact his personality is somewhat bland.

[Big Vic]

He is extremely bland as a face.

[Gertner]

It just seems like he's "just there". He's over no doubt, but I can't remember I said to myself" I really need to see this Orton match."

[Cuse8]

It just seems like he's "just there". He's over no doubt, but I can't remember I said to myself" I really need to see this Orton match."

i agree with this..last time i was actually excited to see an orton match was last years WM vs. punk. since then it feels like hes just going through the motions

[Ultra Mantis]

When you're feuding with Kane and doing segments with Jinder Mahal there's not much you can actually do to make it interesting.

[The Whole F'n Show]

Because, as said 100's of times, he clotheslines like Kelly Kelly :rofl:

[CSL]

gonna quote some bits that cover points I'd only post anyway

And Orton is pretty much untouchable at this point, he's the #2 guy behind Cena out of all of the "full-timers". If he wants to, he'll still be winning world titles and main eventing in 5 years.

Listen to the reaction Orton gets despite the fact he's essentially been filling holes for the last 9-12 months whilst Punk has been having the push of his life. Kind of says it all.

basically he's taking a back seat while guys like Punk, Sheamus and DBD are getting prolonged chances in top spots. Add those to Cena, Brock and Rock recently, Jericho etc and there's not enough pie to pass around, somebody has to feud with the Kane's of the world. As I quoted in the first part, he'll still be main eventing and winning world titles in 5 years if he so chooses, can't say the same thing with any kind of certainty about anybody but Cena really. A bit of time away from the top programs while other guys have a crack won't/hasn't hurt Orton at all.

[Kapoutman]

I don't "get" Randy Orton. I understand that he's over, the reactions are undeniable. However, he bores me with his style of wrestling and promos. I don't think I have ever looked forward to a Randy Orton match since his match against Foley in 2004 or something. Maybe the match against Punk at Wrestlemania. In both cases, it was because of who he was against.

He just doesn't do it for me.

[Rammsteinmad]

I've liked Randy since his debut, but never fully got into him until his feud with Christian last year, and his feud with CM Punk 'planting the seeds' for his stepping up.

Now, he's one of those names for me. He's not my favourite, but he's 'up there' as one of the big names that needs to be on every show.

His wrestling ability certainly stepped up in his feud with Christian, but his character really came into it's own over the last year. It's not so much that he has a 'character', he's often compared to as today's Steve Austin, and this is who he is. He's the badass guy that generally looks out for himself and takes shit from no one. He doesn't overly portray himself as a face, but his willingness and ability to stand up to heels whilst not being afraid to attack faces, gets him over with the crowd.

[itsmeJD]

It's definitely the clothesline. I can't take him seriously until he either stops doing them or attends the "Stan Hansen's School of Lariats". It's fucking horrible.

[RKO'em]

I really liked him more during "The Age Of Orton", in his heel persona. Turning him heel won't really work I feel, though. People will still cheer him. He's in a tough spot, but I'm sure they'll come up with something to breathe life into him. He'll be a top player when the space is clear

[Nicky Fives]

He'll only ever be a top player as a heel.... he's 10x better that way.....but if he's heel, he'd only have Punk to feud with, as they've done Cena/Orton too many times already.....

[St. Jimmy]

I hate his clotheslines, I hate that shitty neckbreaker/backbreaker he does, and that hanging rope DDT is terrible.

Not to mention the pointless stomps and rest-holds.

[Ruien]

Randy Orton will always be the runner-up with John Cena around. With CM Punk breaking through the glass, Randy will be the HHH of this generation.

[MoFo]

The one thing I hate is when everyone dogs his 'mic skills' when he barely cuts a promo anymore.

Guy is the best wrestler in WWE no contest tbh.

[Razzamajazz]

there's a teddy long joke somewhere in here

[St. Jimmy]

Guy is the best wrestler in WWE no contest tbh.

I didn't know they had WiFi under bridges, Troll.

[Emperor Smeat]

The problem is if you try to compare him to Cena on RAW, then it seems like the WWE isn't focusing on him when in reality Orton is a lot more flexible when it comes to placing him anywhere on a card unlike Cena.

Orton also tends to get stale pretty quickly if he gets a "super" push as a face which might be why he stopped becoming the sole focus of Smackdown months after arriving there in favor of someone new for the moment.

He was also injured for a while but according to the dirt sheets, the WWE had planned for him to win the belt shortly into Bryan's reign so it wasn't like the WWE wanted to ignore Orton.

[CSL]

I hate his clotheslines, I hate that shitty neckbreaker/backbreaker he does, and that hanging rope DDT is terrible.

Not to mention the pointless stomps and rest-holds.

this is a pretty hilarious post given some of the shit you speak so positively on here http://www.tpww.net/forums/images/icons/icon12.gif

must try harder James

[GD]

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[Nowhere Man]

I have never understood the appeal of Randy Orton. In ring, he's decent, but nothing special, and that's not including his ridiculous clotheslines or that elevated DDT that looks sillier and more contrived every time he does it. He's always been pretty middling on the mic, too. I guess he used to have "the look," but that was before he shaved his head and got that hideous orange Hulk Hogan tan. I didn't get why everyone was jizzing their pants over him back in '04, and I don't get why he's still so over now.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Everyone in the business seems to consider Orton one of the best working today. You hear it all the time. That being said, Orton doesn't really do too much for me. He's good -- fuck, he's great -- but I just don't care. I think I really want to see the guy in a proper story, where he as proper objectives and overcomes proper obstacles to achieve them.

I made a thread recently discussing bringing in Bray Wyatt to feud with Orton. Something like that would be great for, Randy, I believe. It puts him over as a top dog, since that's why he's being targeted, but it also allows him to make some new stars -- which is something the WWE should really take advantage of given how much more over Orton is than the rest of the SmackDown! roster.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Oh, I'm definitely wishing for Orton vs. Rhodes for the World Heavyweight Title at WrestleMania next year, by the way. I'd even go as far as to have Cody win the Royal Rumble after turning face (similar in the way Orton turned face -- nothing about his personality is really altered).

[XCaliber]

The problem is that The Viper/Apex Predator gimmick works better for a heel than it does a face he would be more over if he was more like he used to be like in "The Legend Killer" era where he was a lot more charasmatic and even though he's more bland promowise as of late I still enjoy him leaps and bounds more than Sheamus or John Cena.

[Mr. Nerfect]

The thing is, could Orton turn heel? I mean, he could technically play the role, but he's essentially a heel right now -- he's just so fucking over. If Orton turned "heel," he'd certainly still get cheered on par with most other guys on the roster. I am certainly enjoying the tensions developing between Sheamus and Orton, however. I would not object to Orton winning the title from Sheamus at Over the Limit and Sheamus needing to chase The Viper.

[#1-norm-fan]

If the roster split actually mattered anymore, I'd say keep him on Smackdown. He also should probably be world champion to keep the belt credible. As much as I like the guy, Sheamus isn't doing that right now. Booking has a lot to do with that but Orton can overcome poor booking by just holding the title because he's over and he can put on a remarkable "WWE style" match any time he wants.

[Sepholio]

Orton as a face = so-so

Orton as a heel = greatness

[The Whole F'n Show]

Orton as a face = so-so

Orton as a heel = greatness

Agreed, but I don't even think he's so-so as a face, he's very bland in the ring and on the mike. He's just one of those wrestlers that won't work as a face at all. I would really like to see him return to his "legend killer" roots. His promos with the mick foley spitting incident was, in my opinion, one of the highlights of his true talent.

[#1-norm-fan]

He's kinda the same on the mic as a heel. I love him as a face though. He's got that edge to him that a guy like Sheamus could probably use right now but he has also done a surprisingly killer job having fun with the crowd during matches at times. The "Christmas Smackdown" match with Otunga last November was a good example of that.

He can easily be a top face for the company.

[#1-norm-fan]

Him losing cleanly to Mark Henry two PPVs in a row was way more effective in helping both of their characters out than most faces have had the capability of doing simply by losing in a long time.

[Shadrick]

Because....he's been one of the top guys for SO long. Time for some other guys to get a shot. He'll get pushed more in a later cycle....

[#1-norm-fan]

You give other guys shots in the upper mid-card and let them seemlessly work into that spot. That's how they get to Orton's level. Putting them "above" Orton as a way to try to get them over is not a good method.

[XL]

Orton as a face = so-so

Orton as a heel = greatness
Isn't that what the IWC thinks about most guys though?

[whiteyford]

Except Ricky Steamboat.

[Ruien]

Isn't that what the IWC thinks about most guys though?

Not if you are a Mexican wearing a mask.

[Mr. Pierre]

I really don't get all the hate. Pretty sure if he was never champion and never sniffed the main event, he'd be an IWC favorite. He's their top wrestler in the ring. People react to everything he does, whether it's a clothesline, taunt, stare, and especially his finisher.

Orton can work any style with any wrestler. WWE's done a nice job of keeping his only weakness (mic skills) to a minimum. He puts on at least a good match every night.

[Taker it Easy]

Randy is a man that has often come up in irl wrestling discussions.

There are different types of wrestlers / characters. Lets focus on two types right now...

1.)There are the Steve Austin, Shawn Michaels types who are a personified version of their natural self.
2.) There are others that come off more like a gimmick where a worker learns how to use and work the gimmick like The Undertaker and Randy.

Why does Randy fall into the latter? Because he is a cold and less than relatable character. Randy has not been able to evolve his character into a new direction. He has maximized any efficiency of his current approach yet that will not allow him to transcend to every fan or global stardom because it is less than easy to be empathetic with his character.

Orton does not openly put himself into the character. It may be a fundamental flaw of his psyche, in real life, that he may be unable to be vulnerable on a personal basis and vulnerability communicates to us that we are one.

If a fan has yet to experience a character as being true vulnerable, something that generates from the person behind the character, then a fan is less than likely to be able to attach his or her heart to that character. Thus Randy is stuck in a stale like climate.

He can succeed in this climate yet he may not reach such status like that of Austin or Michaels.

Randy must learn how to be himself and then be himself as a wrestling character. It is likely that he is not 'the center of the room / party' when he is around, farther than any superficial aspects that business may create for him.

So Randy is doing well and is having success yet it is fractional compared to what he can achieve when in full harmony with himself. As of now Randy is on a path to becoming a franchise unto himself yet that is something different from Austin type of success. Randy's success is without pomp and circumstance, it is a dry yet powerful success. Cold, emotionless and unattached. He is giving what he can give yet it is mostly physical.

Randy Orton is young and there is hope that he will learn much prior to finishing his career. So who knows where Randy will go or how big he may become. He was raised as the Yang to John Cena's Yin so perhaps Randy will some day, eventually, fulfill the greatest roles of them all.




-Cheers
Taker it Easy and listen to those voices

[DrCrawford]

he bores me. his matches bore me. his move spots are boring.

boring.

[#1-norm-fan]

I really don't get all the hate. Pretty sure if he was never champion and never sniffed the main event, he'd be an IWC favorite. He's their top wrestler in the ring. People react to everything he does, whether it's a clothesline, taunt, stare, and especially his finisher.

Orton can work any style with any wrestler. WWE's done a nice job of keeping his only weakness (mic skills) to a minimum. He puts on at least a good match every night.

This man knows what he's talking about

[XL]

Not if you are a Mexican wearing a mask.
Guarantee there are a few that think Rey is stale and "needs" a heel turn. Or were you talking about Sin Cara? :shifty:

[Mr. Nerfect]

Randy is a man that has often come up in irl wrestling discussions.

There are different types of wrestlers / characters. Lets focus on two types right now...

1.)There are the Steve Austin, Shawn Michaels types who are a personified version of their natural self.
2.) There are others that come off more like a gimmick where a worker learns how to use and work the gimmick like The Undertaker and Randy.

Why does Randy fall into the latter? Because he is a cold and less than relatable character. Randy has not been able to evolve his character into a new direction. He has maximized any efficiency of his current approach yet that will not allow him to transcend to every fan or global stardom because it is less than easy to be empathetic with his character.

Orton does not openly put himself into the character. It may be a fundamental flaw of his psyche, in real life, that he may be unable to be vulnerable on a personal basis and vulnerability communicates to us that we are one.

If a fan has yet to experience a character as being true vulnerable, something that generates from the person behind the character, then a fan is less than likely to be able to attach his or her heart to that character. Thus Randy is stuck in a stale like climate.

He can succeed in this climate yet he may not reach such status like that of Austin or Michaels.

Randy must learn how to be himself and then be himself as a wrestling character. It is likely that he is not 'the center of the room / party' when he is around, farther than any superficial aspects that business may create for him.

So Randy is doing well and is having success yet it is fractional compared to what he can achieve when in full harmony with himself. As of now Randy is on a path to becoming a franchise unto himself yet that is something different from Austin type of success. Randy's success is without pomp and circumstance, it is a dry yet powerful success. Cold, emotionless and unattached. He is giving what he can give yet it is mostly physical.

Randy Orton is young and there is hope that he will learn much prior to finishing his career. So who knows where Randy will go or how big he may become. He was raised as the Yang to John Cena's Yin so perhaps Randy will some day, eventually, fulfill the greatest roles of them all.




-Cheers
Taker it Easy and listen to those voices

What I took from this post: Randy Orton should start shitting in Eve's bag on-air, thus getting him to the next level of Superstardom.

Good post, although I'm not sure that Orton is not at the level you are talking about. The guy is immensely over. Like...immensely.

I'm still all-for Orton being cost the World Heavyweight Championship at Over the Limit by Bray Wyatt and Eli Cottonwood, with Wyatt showing Orton the "sins of his past" and that he will now experience a reckoning for it.

The acting SmackDown! General Manager after Over the Limit, Teddy Long, gives Orton an opportunity to face Bray Wyatt on SmackDown!. Just as it looks like Orton is about to win, Wyatt's follower, Cottonwood, gets in the ring and Chokeslams Orton. Wyatt and Cottonwood then beat-down Orton as officials come out to stop the attack so Orton can get medical attention.

It sets up Orton vs. Wyatt in a Steel Cage Match or something at No Way Out, which Orton can win, but it gives Wyatt a pretty strong introduction into the WWE. And from there, we have Money in the Bank, where Orton could add "star-power" to the SmackDown! Money in the Bank Ladder Match. Orton can then be built as Sheamus' next challenger to the World Heavyweight Championship for SummerSlam, where I think Orton taking the title would be a good move.

[ace3025]

Orton confuses me. He is one of the few "top stars" that almost always elevates the up and comers to whatever their next level is. (Case and point, Rhodes when lost the mask and took the bell shot, and the miz when he won the title.) but he just doesn't seem to have the feel of a top guy.
Also, he is one of the people who, when in the title picture, is better with the title rather than chasing. Idk, he's just always there and can be long-term champ or transitional champ but as said.......I just don't really ever think about him as "the guy" or even #2 nowadays

[#1-norm-fan]

I don't think there's a really close #2 I can think of. Cena and Orton are the only two regularly active main event guys who are established like the company has struggled to do with so many others.

[Mr. Nerfect]

CM Punk and Sheamus feel like that to me. Daniel Bryan has actually got a shot of it, despite certain troll opinions.

[#1-norm-fan]

As much as I like Punk and Sheamus, they've still got a long way to go to be established in that "top guy" spot. They're both relatively new to their positions. It takes years and years to get to Orton and Cena's level and/or stellar booking for a decent amount of time. Neither has had that yet.

As for Bryan, brush it off as a troll opinion all you want, I don't see the "it" factor. He has a SHOT to me like a lot of guys on the roster have a SHOT. It's just a really really really really long one.

[#1-norm-fan]

I'd say Jericho may be the closest right now if it weren't for the fact that he doesn't feel like he's back for any reason other than to make others look good. I don't get the feeling he's in it for the long haul. If he had never left, he'd definitely be up there though.

[Heyman]

Randy Orton is great, but.............

I personally believe that Randy Orton is great. Why? Because - despite the fact that he's a face, his character hasn't really lost any of its 'edge'. His character is constant. He is very similar to Undertaker, Kane, and Triple H, in this regard.

Unfortunately - the WWE missed the boat in making Randy a "mega star" in my opinion........twice.

In 2004 after Randy Orton defeated Chris Benoit at Summerslam, and at Wrestlemania 25 when Orton lost to Triple H.

In both cases, Orton could have really skyrocket to the next level.........but bad booking and bad character transition really hurt him.

In 2004 - it was due to a premature face turn.......a face turn that lead to a very significant alteration of character and a complete loss of 'edge'.

At Wrestlemania 25, he should have gone over Triple H cleanly.......and should have continued to be a complete badass as a dominant heel. Remember that one RAW where he got that crazy look in his eye and almost kicked Stephanie McMahon in the head? (to the point where Dibiase and Rhodes even had to hold him back). THAT was perfect........and the WWE should have booked Orton to kick Stephanie in the head.

At current - Orton is a strong competitor for the WWE and would not be out of place as a World title contender, but the WWE could have and should have done so much more with Orton. He could have and should have been a lot bigger.

If the WWE aren't careful, they are going to ruin their potential with CM Punk as well.

[DAMN iNATOR]

The voices in his head are clearly holding him back at this point. He really needs to just let them go. :shifty:

No, but SERIOUSLY. This guy takes his character way too seriously, and we all know how prone he is to anger outbursts (destroying hotel rooms, yelling at people who ask him politely for an autograph in public...). Not only that but the whole "I'm the hero who's really more of an anti-hero is so played out and clichéd for Orton now...needs something to freshen his character up.

[XL]

A heel turn you say?

[DAMN iNATOR]

No. I don't know what they can do with him right now, TBH. He's great in the ring but no matter whether he's face OR heel, the whole hero is really an anti-hero dichotomy always makes him seem, in my book to be a tweener guy. :-\

[CSL]

Not if you are a Mexican wearing a mask.

IWC bitches about Rey constantly and got on Sin Cara not long afterwards. Dunno what yr talking about bruh

[#1-norm-fan]

No. I don't know what they can do with him right now, TBH. He's great in the ring but no matter whether he's face OR heel, the whole hero is really an anti-hero dichotomy always makes him seem, in my book to be a tweener guy. :-\

Then you have him fight the bad guys and befriend the good guys... tweener issue easily solved.

[#1-norm-fan]

IWC bitches about Rey constantly and got on Sin Cara not long afterwards. Dunno what yr talking about bruh

Pretty sure he was talking about the IWC preferring the heel versions of wrestlers, not just bitching about them.

[DAMN iNATOR]

Then you have him fight the bad guys and befriend the good guys... tweener issue easily solved.

I get that he's a face right now. I DO. I'm just saying it seems to me that his character as it is right now, whether he portrays it as a face or heel, will always SEEM to certain fans, like myself, that he's a tweener guy, despite the evident reality.

Just to clarify (hopefully).

[#1-norm-fan]

I don't think it's that deep. He's playing a ruthless character but as long as he's being ruthless against heels, he's a face. I always felt "tweener" was reserved for guys who fought both heels and faces equally.

Yeah, he's kinda feuding with Sheamus now but WWE always does that "rift between the faces" thing leading into a fatal fourway.

[DAMN iNATOR]

LOL, I dunno, I think we're just gonna have to agree to disagree on this one.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Orton's reactions are definitely face reactions.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Randy Orton is great, but.............

I personally believe that Randy Orton is great. Why? Because - despite the fact that he's a face, his character hasn't really lost any of its 'edge'. His character is constant. He is very similar to Undertaker, Kane, and Triple H, in this regard.

Unfortunately - the WWE missed the boat in making Randy a "mega star" in my opinion........twice.

In 2004 after Randy Orton defeated Chris Benoit at Summerslam, and at Wrestlemania 25 when Orton lost to Triple H.

In both cases, Orton could have really skyrocket to the next level.........but bad booking and bad character transition really hurt him.

In 2004 - it was due to a premature face turn.......a face turn that lead to a very significant alteration of character and a complete loss of 'edge'.

At Wrestlemania 25, he should have gone over Triple H cleanly.......and should have continued to be a complete badass as a dominant heel. Remember that one RAW where he got that crazy look in his eye and almost kicked Stephanie McMahon in the head? (to the point where Dibiase and Rhodes even had to hold him back). THAT was perfect........and the WWE should have booked Orton to kick Stephanie in the head.

At current - Orton is a strong competitor for the WWE and would not be out of place as a World title contender, but the WWE could have and should have done so much more with Orton. He could have and should have been a lot bigger.

If the WWE aren't careful, they are going to ruin their potential with CM Punk as well.

Again, I entirely agree with you. The second Orton/Triple H feud didn't grab my attention, but I heard that it was good. What was interesting about it on paper was that it was the heel chasing in an attempt to usurp the throne. I understand why they had Triple H go over, but I think it was the wrong call. Triple H should have passed the torch to the new mega-heel of the generation, and then some other babyface would have gotten a huge rub from beating Orton for the WWE Title.

As for 2004 -- well, I've written much on that. I still feel that the WWE had two ways to go with it:

1) Orton actually gave in to Triple H and handed the World Heavyweight Title over to him. Orton would remain a heel for the foreseeable future, with guys like Chris Benoit telling him that he's better than Triple H. Ric Flair would eventually even snap, and turn face with Orton, telling him to knock him off. Orton would then win the 2005 Royal Rumble and do what Batista did -- challenge Triple H at WrestleMania 21 for the World Heavyweight Championship.

2) Since he did something that Triple H could not do (beat Chris Benoit), Orton would prove to be "the present" of the WWE and no longer "the future." Triple H would then become "the past," but Flair already held that mantle. Therefore, Orton, Batista and Flair overthrow Triple H, kicking him out of his own group, and then searching for a new "future" of the company. Triple H would regroup, and as a lone wolf -- having made so many enemies in his top heel run -- Triple H would go after Orton, winning the 2005 Royal Rumble to earn a title shot against the young lion who replaced him after SummerSlam.

[XL]

You know, I never saw Edge as a "Top Player" in the same league as Austin, Rock, Hogan, etc but the guy did pretty good for himself.