The Trial Of CM Punk

[hb2k]

For this week's podcast we're returning to our "court case" debate format to argue over CM Punk, on the charge of fraud and misrepresentation - in that he and his WWE career didn't live up to all the hype (the internet and his own) surrounding him going in and throughout his run

We're looking for your thoughts on which side of the fence you sit on. Do you feel CM Punk lived up to the internet cheerleading and underground buzz that was synonymous with his name for years and surpassed it, or do you think he fell short of his and his supporters' claims?

As always the best contributions (or "witness statements", in this instance) will be read on the show and you'll be credited accordingly. So where do you weigh in on this, guilty or no, and why?

EDIT - The Trial of CM Punk (featuring a great many of your contributions is now online and available to listen to at the following link: http://squaredcirclegazette.podbean.com/mf/play/w98psn/SCGRadio71-TheTrialOfCMPunk.mp3

[road doggy dogg]

I don't have much to say. Punk was great. Loved all his promos because they seemed much better delivered than pretty much anyone else at the time. Never followed his indie career so I didn't have huge lofty expectations for him when he came to "the bigs". All the shit about the doctors and everything seems really bad and I don't fault him for wanting to get out of there. Definitely seems like a very abrasive person which is fine.

At this point, I find it very hard to mark out for things happening. Aside from AJ Styles' debut, I think the only music hitting the Titantron that would get me to go HOLY SHIT would be hearing Cult of Personality

[drave]

I thought he was great. Getting away from the "vanilla midget" thing, he still promo'd and wrestled better than the majority of the guys. I'll take him over any of the top 3 guys right now. I also feel that some of his gripes were legit, especially how he held the title as long as he did but wasn't the "main feature" despite doing just as well with merch, etc. It was a damn shame to have him lose to Rock just for Rock to seemingly be a transitional champ, but it was what it was.


I also didn't really follow his indie career, so I cannot speak much on that.

[Maluco]

There was a stage where CM Punk was literally neck and neck with John Cena at the very top of the card, often getting the better of him in big matches. Only an extremely optimistic person could have called that going in.

I actually don't even think there is a debate. He was an unqualified success. I just don't think he understood that your out of the ring personality can dictate who the best superstar to represent the company is. He had a chip on his shoulder about being number one, but his moody/irritable persona meant Cena was always going to be the man.

I also think that Daniel Bryan's rise coincided with his exit. I don't think he liked the idea of not being the number one in ring performer in the company...but neither did HBK or Bret Hart.

All in all, he far exceeded expectations and reached a level that noone else did, from Cena's first WWE title win all the way up to Brock Lesnar today.

[broverboard]

I think on many occasions CM Punk was one of the most entertaining parts of the WWE.

In my opinion, Punk struggled to accept WWE saw him as a sports entertainer (as they do all superstars) and not a wrestler, which is why he felt entitled and disillusioned. He knows he is a better wrestler than Cena and The Rock, yet Cena and The Rock were pushed ahead of him because they clearly appeal to a wider demographic, despite not being as technically talented in the ring.

While I understand Punks frustrations and agree with a lot of his points, I think he was always destined to leave WWE on bad terms because Punk belongs and is best suited to a wrestling organisation, and not a sports entertainment organisation - which is a fundamental and irreconcilable difference of vision to what Vince has for the WWE.

[Clerk]

Can we stop talking about Punk? He's done with WWE he's never coming back until after his UFC career which won't be over for awhile. You guys didn't praise him like this until he left. Yall took him for granted and he left yall in the dust lel. How dumb do you guys look keep posting about him. Don't you see he's happy where he is? Just drop it. NOW!

[Simple Fan]

I think Punk met his expectations, wasn't always a fan of his but he did have some great promos. Liked most of his face work and hated him as a heel so I guess he did his job well. Hated his long title run and didnt watch alot at that time.

[Rammsteinmad]

Week-in and week-out, ever since he turned heel on Smackdown in 2009 everything he did was pure gold.

I remember when he debuted in ECW back in 2006 and had that IWC "future of the company" stigma about him. He has all the tools, and the audience were constantly into him, be it as a face or heel, but I feel he never managed to shake that stigma. Even when he was WWE champion for a year or when he beat Cena, he was always second fiddle to guys like Cena, Lesnar and The Rock.

He had an amazing run though. Definitely Hall of Fame-worthy if it ever comes to that.

Random nugget: I wrestled on a show with CM Punk back in 2004 in Trowbridge, Wiltshire (UK). Trowbridge is a shitty, run-down town of about 20,000 people. About 100 people turned up to the show. Not only is it a cool thing for me to brag about, but it also demonstrates how everyone has to start at the bottom and work their way to the top.

[CSL]

lolll Trowbridge, was that for Gangster/UCW? I know he booked himself with Punk around that time, maybe not the same show/place tho

[#BROKEN Hasney]

Well he was the only thing that kept me coming back to WWE after they botched the Nexus. Such a fantastic talent and run.

You can complain about his ego, but it's likely Vince gave him that push because he did believe he was the best and stuck up for himself because he always seems to like that a little. You could also tell he didn't bother with the script a lot of the time which I wish they'd let more guys at least try.

I miss him in WWE. I'll probably have my first UFC PPV buy to likely watch him get his ass kicked too. What a draw, clearly.

[NormanSmiley]

I don't have much to say. Punk was great. Loved all his promos because they seemed much better delivered than pretty much anyone else at the time. Never followed his indie career so I didn't have huge lofty expectations for him when he came to "the bigs". All the shit about the doctors and everything seems really bad and I don't fault him for wanting to get out of there. Definitely seems like a very abrasive person which is fine.

At this point, I find it very hard to mark out for things happening. Aside from the day kurt angle returns, I think the only music hitting the Titantron that would get me to go HOLY SHIT would be hearing Cult of Personality


i love that road dogg is a tigers fan and my spirit animal. every single thing he said except switch aj to kurt

[The Condor]

He was great in the wrestling world, but he is by no means a superstar, even in this decade when they are starved for them. His only cross over appeal is in the controversy that is presently being handled by lawyers, and his upcoming mauling in UFC. He was fine from 2009-2013, but nothing earth shattering.

I was entertained by him for awhile, but a character like his, based in anger and dissatisfaction, can only last so long before becoming stale, as I felt he did after the Brock Summerslam match.

He is a great wrestler, a good talker, but there are a bunch of guys I would put ahead of Punk. I suppose, in closing, he stood out in the WWE at a point in time when the roster was such shit that he was destined to stand out.

[Fignuts]

I think he deserved to main event wrestlemania while he was champion. Cena vs Punk was one of the best feuds of the last 10 years, and it really deserved a mania match.

Punk beating The Rock at the rumble would have also added to the feud, as CM Punk would have then beaten the man that John Cena couldn't.

Beyond that I think Punk did tremendously, and I really don't have anything else to complain about.

[Fignuts]

Can't waoit for the gertner posts.

[NormanSmiley]

i can

[Bad News Gertner]

Nice solid 4/10. Good little opening match guy.

[McLegend]

He held the World Title for over a year. He also was the main catalyst for one of the best storylines this entire century. He good-great matches with a bunch a different of people.

How can he charged with not living up the hype? No one thought in 2005 he was going to anything in the WWE? His career far surpassed all expectations. These are ridiclious charges. If you think he is overrated and didn't deserve all that he got then you "charge" him on that basis.

[SlickyTrickyDamon]

I call for a summary Judgment for CM Punk being innocent on all charges due to lack of evidence.

The real criminal that should be put on trial is JOHN CENA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

-PG is his creation because his fans being 10 at best.
-Attitude Era fans leave because they Cena Nuff. Big drop off in ratings in early years of career and steadily falling every year since.
-Let's go Cena/Cena sucks not being curtailed at the start so any match with Cena is only about Cena. Thus he cannot make new stars because of his love/hate relationship with the WWE Universe.
-Didn't step aside when it was Punks turn to be in the main event when he was outselling Cena in Merch. Cena Vs. Big Johnny and then Big Show over Jericho/Punk and Punk/Daniel Bryan? "What? Fuck you!"-Simon Phoenix, Demolition Man.
-Cena using his powers to have WWE short-sell Punk merch so Punks was always sold out but Cena had garbage color shirts in stock.
-Burrying the Nexus and Wade Barrett (literally burying him with 20 chairs.)
-Nikki Bella's Push.
-Being a fan of the Tampa Bay Rays. (Traitor)

[Theo Dious]

CM Punk is a bunghole.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

I call for a summary Judgment for CM Punk being innocent on all charges due to lack of evidence.

The real criminal that should be put on trial is JOHN CENA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

-PG is his creation because his fans being 10 at best.
-Attitude Era fans leave because they Cena Nuff. Big drop off in ratings in early years of career and steadily falling every year since.
-Let's go Cena/Cena sucks not being curtailed at the start so any match with Cena is only about Cena. Thus he cannot make new stars because of his love/hate relationship with the WWE Universe.
-Didn't step aside when it was Punks turn to be in the main event when he was outselling Cena in Merch. Cena Vs. Big Johnny and then Big Show over Jericho/Punk and Punk/Daniel Bryan? "What? Fuck you!"-Simon Phoenix, Demolition Man.
-Cena using his powers to have WWE short-sell Punk merch so Punks was always sold out but Cena had garbage color shirts in stock.
-Burrying the Nexus and Wade Barrett (literally burying him with 20 chairs.)
-Nikki Bella's Push.
-Being a fan of the Tampa Bay Rays. (Traitor)

This is a terrible post if you are not joking.



I would say as an athlete punk is drastically over rated. But he worked hard for a guy born with very little athletic prowess. I found it annoying how he wanted to be this "MMA" guy as his gimmick but he looked like a giant wuss pretty boy, and I believe my personal life hero Carl Jones has brought up he has the gate of a pre teen girl (I maybe added the pre teen part). If not for the all of the tattoos he would have looked like joe average.

In saying that, the guy was a great talent. He made whatever it was about him, work. His matches at worst were watchable, at best were great. He was great on the mic and you could tell he put his heart and soul into everything. It's probably why he's such a little prick. His technical acumen was a little over rated but the guy had a gas tank and I would never go as far to call him sloppy.

What absolves him of any guilt was what happened during the summer of punk. His momentum was incredible, and what do they do? Link him to the HHH and Nash bullshit and never give him his shine. Sorry, but there's not much coming back from that, though THANKFULLY he managed to salvage some of it, but Mr. Desperate for attention Hunter should have realized his prime was long gone and it's time to take a chance on someone else.

NOT GUILTY although this trial process is necessary.

[#BROKEN Hasney]

CM Punk is a bunghole.

http://i.imgur.com/wrXaQKt.gif

[The CyNick]

One of the most overrated stars in the history of the business.

At the end of the day he failed to reach his goals and instead of working harder to make them happen, he quit. Now he's pretending to be a UFC fighter. We'll see what happens when that gets tough too.

[Lock Jaw]

I think he made it as far as anyone had done in over a decade, and that is quite the accomplishment.

When he first started out, we was indeed nothing special... it was just like "Oh, so this is the guy the internet goes crazy about?".

When he won his first world title, it was like "really? This guy?".

When he won his second world title and turned heel and started developing an actual character.... he began to win me over both in the ring and outside the ring.

Then, of course, he really took off with the Summer of Punk thing. Sure, the start and the finish were a bit bumpy.... but on the whole, it established CM Punk as "on another level".

Even after he lost the title, CM Punk still felt "special". Indeed, they made sure that they always had a "plan"/"story" for CM Punk to be involved in.... and it always felt like a main attraction because CM Punk was there.

I still feel like CM Punk's exit has left a void that has yet to be filled. There is no one currently around who they present as special as they did CM Punk.

[#1-norm-fan]

I think Punk's WWE career surpassed all MY expectations at least. If you're judging on a stereotypical IWC fan's expectations, no one is ever gonna really reach it. When Punk came in, I was in the Lock Jaw camp. He seemed like an entertaining enough guy who the internet had "World champion/WrestleMania headliner" aspirations for. I thought if everything went right, he could be an amazing addition to the upper-midcard for a long time.

Not only did he end up being a legit world champion for over a year, it didn't seem like he was in over his head. It worked. Which was definitely not something I could envision when he started out. So yes, he definitely lived up to his potential but once he got there, I do feel like he could have been even more.

[drave]

Feel like Punk and Rollins would have been an amazing heel tag team.

[Theo Dious]

Feel like Punk and Rollins would have been an amazing heel tag team.

They would have been great in a Benoit/Angle constantly at each other's throats role.

[Simple Fan]

One of the most overrated suoertars in the history of the business.

At the end of the day he failed to reach his goals and instead of working harder to make them happen, he quit. Now he's pretending to be a UFC fighter. We'll see what happens when that gets tough too.

I dont think he failed at reaching his goals, he accomplished more than alot of guys and WWE and made enough money to just walk away. Him leaving was a result of the company and him not having good communications and them working him hurt. Was probably one of the hardest working guys on the roster when he was there.

[Emperor Smeat]

He lived up to his hype while in the WWE. He might not have been able to reach his desire of main eventing a Mania but he had a lot of great moments and matches during his WWE career.

Could argue for certain stretches of his career he was the most entertaining wrestler in the WWE like the Summer of Punk stuff or his pairing with Heyman as examples. Also was one of the very few in the WWE who could easily get the mainstream to notice what was going on in wrestling and keep them interested for a while.

[Bad News Gertner]

I call for a summary Judgment for CM Punk being innocent on all charges due to lack of evidence.

The real criminal that should be put on trial is JOHN CENA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

-PG is his creation because his fans being 10 at best.
-Attitude Era fans leave because they Cena Nuff. Big drop off in ratings in early years of career and steadily falling every year since.
-Let's go Cena/Cena sucks not being curtailed at the start so any match with Cena is only about Cena. Thus he cannot make new stars because of his love/hate relationship with the WWE Universe.
-Didn't step aside when it was Punks turn to be in the main event when he was outselling Cena in Merch. Cena Vs. Big Johnny and then Big Show over Jericho/Punk and Punk/Daniel Bryan? "What? Fuck you!"-Simon Phoenix, Demolition Man.
-Cena using his powers to have WWE short-sell Punk merch so Punks was always sold out but Cena had garbage color shirts in stock.
-Burrying the Nexus and Wade Barrett (literally burying him with 20 chairs.)
-Nikki Bella's Push.
-Being a fan of the Tampa Bay Rays. (Traitor)

Lol that's outstanding

[Mr. JL]

I seriously never enjoyed much of CM Punk when he was in the indies. I could not for the life of me understand why he was so coveted among internet smarks. Even when I watch some of his stuff back from his indy days I still don't really care for most of it BUT he won me over in the WWE.

I enjoyed 2011 Pipe Bomb CM Punk, his feud with John Cena and most of his stuff from that point on (Kevin Nash fiasco aside).

I think he made the most out of his time in the WWE. I certainly did not think he would get as much success as he did accomplish.

Frankly, he could have done A LOT more awesome shit but the WWE really dropped the ball and did everything in their power to reign him back down to where they wanted him to be on the card (upper mid-card level). I think they missed a ton of great opportunities to solidify him as the top guy, create a BUZZ, make money, draw ratings, sell T-Shirts and fill the arena's with their abysmal booking.

[The MAC]

punk telling HHH off every week was gold

[Anybody Thrilla]

Our wrestling memories are all based on 'moments', so the original pipe bomb promo and blowing a kiss to Vince McMahon right before escaping through the Chicago crowd with the title at the 2011 Money in the Bank show should absolve Punk of all wrong-doing as a wrestling fan. Throw in things like the Straight Edge Society and the Jeff Hardy feud, and it should prove fairly difficult to not celebrate that WWE career. People like Jake Roberts, Rick Rude, and Scott Hall are all considered legends without much debate whatsoever, and Punk surpassed all of them in terms of what he actually accomplished as a WWE wrestler. He definitely went above and beyond what most people SHOULD have expected of him, unless someone had ridiculously unrealistic expectations to begin with. Shame how it all ended, but thanks for the memories, I say.

[CSL]

I don't really see what there is to discuss, he far surpassed anything he ever did away from WWE and was way more of a success than surely even his biggest fans could have imagined he would be when he was first signed. And if anybody beforehand claimed he was going to amount to more than that, like the second coming of Hogan or something, they weren't worth listening to in the first place.

[Evil Vito]

<font color=goldenrod>Punk was basically the first "indy" guy they signed, and so my expectations of him were quite low coming in. I figured Vince would stick him with a shitty gimmick (remember the rumors that he'd debut as a deaf wrestler?) or otherwise not be interested in pushing him at all given that he wasn't created by the WWE machine.

They made him a focal point of the ECW brand straight away but that didn't really amount to much in the grand scheme of things. He floundered after going to Raw and getting a cup of coffee with the title, but that was par for the course with how the brand split worked at that time. Up and comer goes to Raw, languishes in the midcard, then goes to SmackDown to be a big deal. That's how it worked. And boy did it ever work here. His heel run as the Straight Edge Savior was brilliant and then of course you had the pipe bomb a couple of years later.

Personally, I felt his 14 month title run really should have been extended to WM29 where he could have dropped it to Cena in a triple threat with The Rock rather than simply re-doing the supposedly "once in a lifetime" match from a year ago, but I understand why WWE did what they did. Also being at WM29 live watching Punk/Taker in person was a huge joy. Knowing what we know in retrospect after his podcast with Cabana I wonder if Punk had gotten the WM29 main event and got that huge chip off his shoulder if he still would have left when he did, but there were a lot of other factors at play.

Say he's a bellend all you want (by most accounts you wouldn't be wrong), but for my money from that 3.5/4 year stretch from his 2009 heel turn until his WM29 match with Taker there wasn't a superstar on the roster I was more consistently entertained by than CM Punk. Any and all expectations I had for him going in were blown out of the water.</font>

[Rammsteinmad]

lolll Trowbridge, was that for Gangster/UCW? I know he booked himself with Punk around that time, maybe not the same show/place tho

Yep! Not sure about the show though, as I think Punk did a couple for UCW (can't really remember). Haven't wrestled for them in about ten years.

But it's nice little assurance that if CM Punk once wrestled for UCW, then there's still hope for me!

(There isn't really, though). :-\

[The CyNick]

I dont think he failed at reaching his goals, he accomplished more than alot of guys and WWE and made enough money to just walk away. Him leaving was a result of the company and him not having good communications and them working him hurt. Was probably one of the hardest working guys on the roster when he was there.

His goals were clearly stated. He wanted to headline Mania. He never did that. Thats the failure.

He was a decent overall performer, and no denying he had a fanbase that were willing to buy his tshirts, but he was never THE GUY in the company. In my opinion thats ultimately what drove him away.

[Simple Fan]

Yeah, the company drove him away. He is the only guy since the Orton/Cena OVW class to really get to that level though. Without a doubt he deserved to headline Mania but WWE always had different plans. Had the potential to be the top guy though, his attitude could probably been a little better but honestly I think more talent need to have the confidence to say no to things and really take ownership of their characters.

[drave]

He didn't fail though, I would argue the company failed "their champion" who by rights, should be and 99% of the time is the featured attraction.

As Mania has been the past.... well ever, it is more about "star power", which can be good and bad, depending on your perspective.

A triple threat would have worked nicely, even with Punk doing the job and either Cena OR Rock going over. That would have kept his "you never beat me, I am better than you" asshole attitude in line as well as set up potential future matches with either.

[Anybody Thrilla]

They seemed to think that The Miz had the star power to headline Wrestlemania. They probably didn't want to make the same mistake with Punk.

[CSL]

Yep! Not sure about the show though, as I think Punk did a couple for UCW (can't really remember). Haven't wrestled for them in about ten years.

But it's nice little assurance that if CM Punk once wrestled for UCW, then there's still hope for me!

(There isn't really, though). :-\

lol christ. Never worked for UCW themselves but been on multiple shows with Gangster and some of his "boys" (including his odd job referee who was definitely a serial killer). Nice guy but the absolute shits. I remember one time he tried to slam me on some ridiculously hard floor, like a school gym or something and I was upside down with both of my hands on the floor looking ridiculous because he was sloppy as balls and fuck that noise. Another time I thought he was going to give me a concussion because he was throwing punches in the corner like bastard Vader. Remember having a conversation with him and a friend tho elsewhere and he said he'd had a try out with WWE on one of the UK tours, was in the ring with Jamie Noble in front of some of "the boys", apparently he knew somebody in "the office" back then. Normally you'd think it was complete shit but he was really open about how shit he was and was all "if I can do it, anybody can" so who knows, I've heard of guys just as bad doing the same, pro wrestling is just like everybody else a lot of the time, "it's not what you know, it's who you know". Some of their shows are hilarious to watch on tape but they were a bit more recent than 10 years ago. Some of the most fun you can have is on shit shows in front of 8 people.

[Fignuts]

He didn't fail though, I would argue the company failed "their champion" who by rights, should be and 99% of the time is the featured attraction.

As Mania has been the past.... well ever, it is more about "star power", which can be good and bad, depending on your perspective.

A triple threat would have worked nicely, even with Punk doing the job and either Cena OR Rock going over. That would have kept his "you never beat me, I am better than you" asshole attitude in line as well as set up potential future matches with either.

I think it would have been better to have Cena vs Punk by itself. That feud was this era's flair vs steamboat or austin vs rock in my opinion. Some might say it's cena vs orton, but I feel cena and punk had much better chemistry both in the ring and when trading words.

You could still have rock on the show facing the undertaker. Their history and iconic status would have made for a much better build than crappy exploitation of paul bearers death that we got.

[NormanSmiley]

Its a weird thing with punk where he had the longest title reign in modern history. 6th longest of all time in the company which would lead you to believe he was the top guy in the company. But the rock cena stuff came along. This is also the same company who put a savage flair title match with a great story in place in the midcard to give a hogan sid snoozefest as their main event

[XL]

He was successful on pretty much every level, aside from his own interpretation of "success" with regards to Main Eventing WrestleMania. To which I'd attribute a rare case of modesty, or, more likely, he's being coy and trying to get people to tell him how well he did.

He had more success than 90% of guys who make the main roster. He was strongly featured, had a mammoth World Title run, had a number of great matches and even better moments. He was arguably the trail blazer for the likes of Daniel Bryan, Kevin Owens, Sami Zayn, Hideo Itami, Styles, Nakamura, etc. being brought into the company and being given a chance.

[hb2k]

I want to thank everybody for the contributions, we got to read many of them on the show, which is now available at the following link:

http://squaredcirclegazette.podbean.com/mf/play/w98psn/SCGRadio71-TheTrialOfCMPunk.mp3

Join us for The Trial Of CM Punk! The debate is on, as the prosecution and defense discuss the charge of Fraud and Misrepresentation, in that Punk and his WWE career did not live up to hype that the internet fans and he himself showed upon him going in and throughout. Taking your witness statements, we debate his matches, promos, originality, attitude, drawing power, and overall influence on the business as we know it today. A tremendous debate and a big thank you to those who contributed, check it out and let us know what you think of the verdict!

[drave]

lol....

"Take JBL, he wasn't great"

from background

"HE'S GOING INTO THE HALL OF FAME CARL!"

made me nearly spit my coffee.

[Theo Dious]

lol....

"Take JBL, he wasn't great"

from background

"HE'S GOING INTO THE HALL OF FAME CARL!"

made me nearly spit my coffee.

That was golden. :) Another great show, my favorite trial show so far.

[Clerk]

Punk has an opponent in the UFC. BIBLICAL

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Was excellent. Very back and forth argument. I was a roller coaster of emotion.

[hb2k]

Thank you very much fellas, greatly appreciated!