Is it too late for AJ Styles to be the top face in the company?

[Luigi]

According to recent reports, John Cena is still the #1 merch seller in the WWE. Reigns and Styles come in at #2, with the big difference being that Reigns has the machine behind him while AJ does not. I wonder if AJ is capable of being the face of the company, and if he’d succeed in that role? AJ Styles isn’t young anymore, but would he able to handle the physical demands of being the number one guy? I think if pushed correctly, AJ could be what Daniel Bryan was a few years ago.

Moving AJ to RAW and pushing him as the top guy would also open the door to turning Reigns heel, assuming that AJ started to succeed as a top face on RAW.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Sup Heyman.

[Destor]

Yes

[SlickyTrickyDamon]

He's the top face on Smackdown and doesn't get any of the boos. If he switches to Raw it could work.

[#1-norm-fan]

Yes. He couldn't have been the face of the company 10 years ago either though. He doesn't have what it takes.

[ClockShot]

:yes:

If WWE got him years earlier it would be a whole different story.

Just let him run Smackdown. That's good enough for me.

[KIRA]

At one point I would have said I'm not sure but something happens AJ where he became a lot more well-rounded at least on the mic like he became fun to hear and of course his skills in the ring are second to none except maybe Daniel Bryan so I'm going to say not too late he could have he seems to be Vince McMahon's New Shawn Michaels aka the spot that Dolph Ziggler was clearly gunning for.

[KIRA]

Yes. He couldn't have been the face of the company 10 years ago either though. He doesn't have what it takes.
You said that for a few people I don't think you be saying that if the say the machine had gotten behind him instead of Roman Reigns if he had been there earlier the thing is that we pretty much been conditioned to see Roman as the man so you just accept it even if you don't like him although I don't accept it at all I think he should be like mid card at best

[Luigi]

Yes. He couldn't have been the face of the company 10 years ago either though. He doesn't have what it takes.

Why do you feel this way? Can you please elaborate?

[Ruien]

AJ is your Daniel Bryan. An awesome worker. Amazing talent. But can he really draw NEW fans in? That is what the face of the company needs to do. It is something Reigns is 100% not doing too.

[Luigi]

AJ is your Daniel Bryan. An awesome worker. Amazing talent. But can he really draw NEW fans in? That is what the face of the company needs to do. It is something Reigns is 100% not doing too.

You make solid points. Here’s my POV. There is no one in the WWE right now that can bring in new fans. Maybe Ronda Rousey can attract some Non-wwe fans, but as far as male wrestlers go, I don’t think the WWE has anyone at current. If that’s the case, then why not go with someone that atleast the smarks will love? (Styles). Given his merch success, it’s not Styles is way down the list from guys like Cena and Reigns. It’s pretty much Cena at number one, and then AJ and Reigns at number 2 (AJ without the machine behind him). Unfortunately, I think AJ’s age is too much of a factor.

[KIRA]

The way I see it age is the only thing holding him back. TNA was all set to build their company around the guy until they decided to go down the path of WWE Rejects and geriatric old men.
The guy actually does scream Superstar he's got a great Look to Him he seems like a fun guy the accent quite frankly as Charming. Children and adults love him I can't fathom how anybody doesn't think he has the it Factor

[Jordan]

I don't really see the next "jacked up baby face with undeniable charisma" ala Bruno, Hogan, Rock, Cena .... and I guess Reigns who has been thrust into that role... Anyway I don't see the guy after Reigns. I see the next CM Punk (Alistar Black), and the next Daniel Bryan/HBK type (Johnny Gargano), the next giant (Lars Sullivan), but they haven't got the next John Cena. I don't think they will have a guy like that for some time. We are going into the new "Bret/Shawn/Austin" era where there is a prototypical babyface leading the company. But those were some damn good time so lets let it roll.

[Destor]

Bret and shawn both almost saw the company go out of business

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Shawn and Bret were better draws as heel champs.

[Destor]

Shawn was a draw once he became a "legend."

Bret was never a draw.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

I think Bret drew decently in 1997. Not huge or anything, but it was good... enough to keep them alive.

Shawn as a heel at the end of 1997/98 did well from what I know.

I'm aware that at the beginning of 1998 or something the company almost went under... but they made some good moves and Shawn drew at Mania.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

I mean you can say it was Tyson and Austin, but Shawn was champ.

[Jordan]

I think AJ is a part of a team of top guys but he is not the WWE's top guy.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

At the end of the day, we'll never know with guys who aren't given the top guy treatment.

With Bret, he never had anyone pass the torch. He won his first title at a house show that didn't air until it was released on colliseum video. His 2nd title win was Yoko falling off the 2nd rope, and he didn't even headline any shows after that. Even by the time he won the title in 1997 the only main event he wrestled was against Shawn during he screwjob.

Even with Daniel Bryan, he went over HHH, but a month later he's feuding with Kane and it's absolute death. He's running away afraid. Honestly, thank fucking god he got injured because they wanted to tank his run to prove a point.

But the anointed guys like Shawn and Roman get chance after chance after chance after chance. Same with HHH. Shawn didn't draw in 96 but you best believe Vince went to that well until it was clear Austin wasn't going to be stopped. Cena was a "draw" I guess, but not really. But he was anointed so he got to run with the ball even though he was never truly accepted.

Roman has gotten 4 straight main events and he hasn't moved the needle. And he's still gonna beat Brock in Saudi Arabia, and that's gonna fail. But they'll keep pushing him until fans half-heartedly accept him like they did with Cena because what fucking choice do you have other than not watching? And then they'll say "WE TOLD YOU HE WAS A DRAW".

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

If they gave AJ even a lick of a shot... he'd get one big main event, and when that wouldn't draw (which honestly, it wouldn't) they'd say "AJ's not a draw" and pull the plug and we'd never find out.

[Ruien]

Cena was crazy over for awhile even during his face run. It wasn't until months after the face turn did the crowd go against him.

[Ruien]

He still 11100000% drew in little kids too. That cant br denied.

[Swiss Ultimate]

Yes

DDP was the Top face of WCW...so yes.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

He still 11100000% drew in little kids too. That cant br denied.

little kids liked him and it helped w/ merch but he isn't an all time draw, that's for damned sure.

and he earned his spot, there's no doubt about that. but when the fans turned on him, it was for a reason.

[Ruien]

There are only like 5 people who actually drew. Like there name is there so a lot of people bought the ppv that would not otherwise. If you take Cena out of WWE then there rating would have plummeted years ago. Take AJ out now and the numbers stay the same.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Take AJ out now and the numbers stay the same.

I never said this wasn't the case. But he's not been placed in the position to draw and be a Cena-like character. Literally the entire show was centered around Cena for a decade. Every segment talked about Cena. He went over the entire RAW roster in one match.

AJ is considered part of the WWE, but he is barely a focal point. So yeah, remove him, and nobody would really care.

That's all I was saying.

And my other point is with all that Cena's been given to run with, he hasn't done all that much. Still tremendous at what he does. But is contributions to the overall product are drastically overstated.

[Ruien]

Pssss. He had Orton when he killed the entire roster. Or are you talking about a different match?

But agreed.

The real question is will WWE ever allow another mega superstar. Despite who they have I domt think they want anyone to be able to rise above the WWE.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

lol oh yeah sorry, him and one other person squashed the entire roster :p

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

They want Roman to be "The Guy". And honestly, I firmly believe at some point the fans will kind of give up. It'll be kind of like Cena in that they'll go from "hating" him to "respecting" him and they won't even understand why. I get the Roman vitriol is worse than Cena's ever was. But you keep pushing him over and over, eventually the fans'll be like "fuck it".

Mind you, even if they booked AJ like they're booking Roman, he'd probably take negative backlash. They have no idea how to make things seem organic.

[Mr. Nerfect]

They want Roman to be "The Guy". And honestly, I firmly believe at some point the fans will kind of give up. It'll be kind of like Cena in that they'll go from "hating" him to "respecting" him and they won't even understand why. I get the Roman vitriol is worse than Cena's ever was. But you keep pushing him over and over, eventually the fans'll be like "fuck it".

Mind you, even if they booked AJ like they're booking Roman, he'd probably take negative backlash. They have no idea how to make things seem organic.

That is exactly what is going to happen. People get fatigued and they stop resisting, and Vince can get away with it because he has no perceived competition and is a stubborn motherfucker. He can have Brock beat Reigns ten more times before randomly putting the belt on him, and that is entirely his choice and you have one choice: watch or not.

People have chosen not to watch. Ratings went down under Cena -- a higher rate than television ratings themselves have declined. Attendance is down with no signs of it really increasing. They will charge more money for the fans who will go to their shows. They will do deals with developing countries in order to take the circus to them in order to stay afloat. They will sign hot women and put them in reality shows to cover their costs. They're living on this edge of a bubble that might one day pop, but they can ride for the foreseeable future.

At some point, Reigns will just be a guy who has been in 10 WrestleMania main events with as many World Titles and will be a "legend" by the narrative they get to set. He'll have sold a lot of merchandise, been in front of millions of people, had a lot of "good" matches, and -- to a certain section of an audience that is conditioned to seeing him perform -- will affect business when he's not around.

[Mr. Nerfect]

On AJ Styles:

I think he's one of the most talented guys they've ever had. Even back in the TNA days -- he had that Rey Mysterio/Jeff Hardy/RVD "cool factor" about him. Maybe it's a hangover from the extreme sport days, and skateboard culture, but there was something "kickin'" about his style. The high-flying, the attitude, the name, his presentation. My brother, who is not the biggest wrestling fan, had heard of him and checked out some of his matches. That's entirely anecdotal, but I think there has always been a certain charisma there.

If Vince Russo and Dixie Carter's crazy vision for TNA did anything, it was that it saddled certain wrestlers with gimmicks and angles that were so misshapen they had to learn new skills. These are arguably skills they shouldn't have needed to learn. But guys like Samoa Joe, Bobby Roode and AJ Styles have been much better equipped to deal with the WWE and a sports entertainment presentation by TNA than most of us would probably like to admit. Joe and Styles are arguably two of the most charismatic people on the roster. Think about that. Neither was known for being a "promo guy" earlier in their careers.

That and Japan helped AJ Styles get the confidence he needed -- and I do believe it is confidence -- to become the complete package he is today. He knows how good he is -- not in an arrogant way -- so he's able to "not give a fuck" in that constructive kind of way. He knows he's bulletproof. He looked good putting over James Ellsworth (as much as anybody can). You can tell he's made a fan out of Vince McMahon, and he's retained what made him TNA AJ Styles and NJPW AJ Styles while incorporating WWE AJ Styles. He's so fucking good. I always thought he would do well in the WWE (better than people expected, anyway), but I'm shocked as to what a perfect fit it all is, and how his charisma comes out in promos as well as in his ring work.

I think age is only a factor in the sense that you can't plan 10 years around him. In WWE terms, he is very young. He's fresh. Physically, he seems fucking amazing. 40 or not, he's so much better than everybody else around him. That being said: I don't think he can be "the guy."

He works as an alien. He's fascinating because he's this world-traveled world-class wrestler that has come in with fanfare -- kicked down the door, frankly -- and has been a breath of fresh air in the ring and on the stick. It's been really fun. I like him as the guy they build SmackDown around. I like him as an old-school style Intercontinental Champion. I think he's great in the semi-main or working with a top heel champion every now and then, but I think you risk losing what makes him interesting if you circumvent things around him too much. But that might just be my conditioning.

For now: I think he's the best bet. Until you can get Dan Matha ready or whatever. Reigns is not cutting the cheese. I mean, we're in a different time, but AJ Styles has already spent more time as WWE Champion than Kurt Angle, Edge or The Undertaker, and it still feels "fresh." We're sitting here discussing whether or not they can push him too hard, but look at what they've already done with him. I mean, you can ask what that means, and sure, but good for him, I guess. I do think he'll get to main event at least one WrestleMania. I mean, again, you can ask what that really means, but is there a bigger push Vince can really give you this century that isn't "he's the guy, he's the guy, he's the guy, he's the guy?" His puppets on commentary already point out that he's the best. I dunno, he's doing fine, I bet.

[#1-norm-fan]

Why do you feel this way? Can you please elaborate?

He doesn't have the charisma, look or mainstream appeal to be the face of the company. He's a guy who can appeal to people who are already hardcore wrestling fans and that's it. The booking may be shit but even with perfect booking his ceiling is low because of those factors. There are other guys and have been other guys in the company recently who have the tools but are victims of booking. He's not one of them.

[Emperor Smeat]

I'd argue yes but more towards him being as a bridge or transitional "Face of the WWE" type mega star. Sort of like what Daniel Bryan could have been for the Reigns era had Vince not been really stubborn and Bryan's body didn't also fall apart at the worst time possible.

Styles' age holds him back too much from having a lengthy Hogan/Cena-like reign as a top star while WWE's booking is the biggest obstacle for him having a potential shorter Austin-like top star reign.

He fits more as a HBK/Bret-like top star where he is the main guy for a couple years and at the same time, WWE is building the foundation for their next mega star era.

[Luigi]

I just want to acknowledge everyone's contributions to this thread by saying, "great job everyone." It's contributions such as these that make me enjoy visiting these forums.

[Mr. Nerfect]

You’re welcome, “Luigi”.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

He doesn't have the charisma, look or mainstream appeal to be the face of the company. He's a guy who can appeal to people who are already hardcore wrestling fans and that's it. The booking may be shit but even with perfect booking his ceiling is low because of those factors. There are other guys and have been other guys in the company recently who have the tools but are victims of booking. He's not one of them.

You say that with such assuredness. But many would have argued Steve Austin didn't have the charisma up until the point that he did. You've been conditioned to believe "top guy needs to tick these boxes" but you've never seen anyone given a chance beyond Vince's usual template... other than Steve Austin, really. If they don't tick Vince's boxes, they get a sniff at the top spot, but the second things don't go EXACTLY RIGHT, they're considered flops at the box office. Never mind Roman, Cena, and HHH's constant chances.

[Mr. Nerfect]

There's something to what Dale is saying. Styles is really fucking good. He might not be the conventional WWE prototype, but if he appeals to people, then he appeals to people. There's definitely something there.

[Juan]

Sorry guys, #1-wwf-fan has spoken.

[Maluco]

I think he could have been if he were five years younger, but AJ took a long time to find his groove and settle in a persona. He was constantly changing look, attire and how he was on screen. This current version is extremely marketable and it seems so natural. He is effortlessly "cool" now, while still having a fun personality and being good humored. But he now has a brand and a fixed look. As well as that he has cool gear, great music and a fantastic, exciting moveset.

It has all come too late in his career for him to be the man. Post-40, a bad injury from his style could spell the end. But it's a real pity this all didn't come about earlier. Him and Angle wasting so much time in TNA really sucks. Catch 22 is that he probably wouldn't be like he is now without all his experience that has come before to carry himself the way he does.

He is a throwback to times where different experiences and wrestling in different countries moulded stars and refined personalities. Cookie cutter WWE made stars from NXT lack this.

He is a star, but it's come too late to be THE star imo

[#1-norm-fan]

You say that with such assuredness. But many would have argued Steve Austin didn't have the charisma up until the point that he did. You've been conditioned to believe "top guy needs to tick these boxes" but you've never seen anyone given a chance beyond Vince's usual template... other than Steve Austin, really. If they don't tick Vince's boxes, they get a sniff at the top spot, but the second things don't go EXACTLY RIGHT, they're considered flops at the box office. Never mind Roman, Cena, and HHH's constant chances.

Austin had loads of charisma before he became the guy. Anyone who argued otherwise would have just been wrong. Maybe he didn't show it off to that extent but he always showed it. You can't really compare him to Styles. Austin got a chance to "be himself" and took shit to another level. Styles hasn't been pigeonholed by a gimmick or anything. For all intents and purposes, he has just been himself for most of his career.

And it's not conditioning. A successful face of the company absolutely needs to tick those boxes to some extent. No one is gonna draw new fans in in droves or keep the casual fans coming back because "workrate" and that's really all Styles has going for him. All it's good for is appealing to hardcore wrestling fans who are gonna watch whether he's main eventing or jerking the curtain.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Styles isn't exactly Chris Benoit. He cuts a good promo and is marketable. And Austin as Stunning Steve showed some charisma, but had his legs cut out from under him after drawing one bad number. As Ring Master, he showed pretty much nothing. Even as Stone Cold, he certainly didn't tick the Hogan boxes. He literally forged his own path to the top.

Again, we'll never know til someone like him is ACTUALLY given the ball to run with. But AJ with the "machine" behind him would probably do better than Roman.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

In fact, isn't AJ neck-in-neck with Roman in merch sales, and he's not presented as "the guy"?

[Mr. Nerfect]

AJ Styles has plenty of charisma. He's always been able to draw people in to what he does. I mean, he's won over Vince McMahon, who would have been one of the harshest critics. That's something that, say, Cesaro hasn't been able to do. I think saying that ring work is all he's got is reductionist for the point of argument.

[#1-norm-fan]

AJ hasn't always been able to "draw people in". He was the face of TNA for quite a while. Not like the ratings skyrocketed during that time. I by "draw people in" you mean get a reaction from the hardcores with his matches then we're just not talking about the same thing.

Also as far as the reductionist statement, I was actually just going to respond to Dale's comment about his mic skills by stating how it's common for fans of the typical IWC favorites to somehow find skills outside the ring that aren't there. It happened with Benoit who people liked to try to define some special form of charisma into existence so that they could tick that box for him. It happened with Bryan who got passable but people started swearing got WAY better on the mic than he actually did. It's happening with Styles now. He's not charismatic. He's awkward and not believable on the mic and you can tell he's trying way too hard. If you're watching wrestling with a non-fan, he's not a guy you want cutting a promo. It's embarrassing. Having him do the talk show circuits and represent the company to the mainstream would be a disaster. He has nothing redeeming to anyone other than a hardcore.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

They started jobbing AJ out left right and centre to old WWE stars before he could draw anyone. You're cherrypicking guys who got no chance to draw. Also, he's good on the mic... not great. But he's better than fucking Roman Reigns.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Benoit had charisma and AJ is literally one of the best talkers they've got. That might be sad, but it's true.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Like, I hate the style most of the indy darlings work today. I'm not just looking to love AJ Styles, believe me. Especially given his homophobic comments outside wrestling. But he's so fucking good. Bryan did get more comfortable on the mic, and his charisma fuels his segments. He can talk fairly "normally" and people get into it. That's the point of a promo. Not to do all these weird catchphrases and bullshit to disguise the fact no one really cares about what you're doing.

I dunno, #fan, I'm normally with you, but AJ is pretty fantastic as an all-round talent. I think he would have done fine even in previous years with actual stars hovering around, because he's got that x-factor.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

I would say his only issue was being far too babyfaced ( not a good guy, just had the face of a baby) and those fucking highlights in his hair lol.

That, and jobbing to literally every single person of all time probably didn't help.

On another slightly different note... I find it so strange that Vince went with Austin--the reason he won the fucking war. And "real" character, who honestly went against the grain, but since then has gone back to trying to find the next Hulk Hogan. Don't get me wrong, I'm not for him finding the next Steve Austin, but he was so fucking different from the rest of Vince's "guys". From there, it's gone to Cena then Reigns, who've been booked as vanilla as they come. It just makes no sense to me. Where's the creativity?

[#1-norm-fan]

Benoit had charisma and AJ is literally one of the best talkers they've got. That might be sad, but it's true.

If that were true, it would definitely be REALLY sad. I agree.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

There aren't many great talkers on the roster.

[#1-norm-fan]

I dunno, #fan, I'm normally with you, but AJ is pretty fantastic as an all-round talent. I think he would have done fine even in previous years with actual stars hovering around, because he's got that x-factor.

He would have done fine in the same way any good midcard workhorse IC title guy has done. Putting on great matches that are promoted in small print below the legit stars who run the show ala Benoit. It's what his role should be.

[#1-norm-fan]

There aren't many great talkers on the roster.

Compared to AJ Styles though...

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

He's better than a lot of them.

I mean look Fan, you may not like his talking, but the crowds in the building react. You aren't right about everything, believe it or not ;) (most things though you're pretty close on)

[#1-norm-fan]

Crowds in the building usually react to Nakamura and Asuka and they can barely speak English.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

IMO you probably want to have positive reactions throughout the show.


Maybe at first you'd see a dip in the numbers. But if the shows are a blast with interactive crowds, people eventually will actually want to check it out. Particularly if you market it as such. It's kinda what happened in the attitiude era. The shows were interactive and the t.v. audience felt like they were part of the party.

Instead of people shitting on your top stars constantly.


I'm not saying AJ Styles woulda been the tops during the Attitude era, especially at his size. But in today's climate, you'd have better luck hitching to his wagon than you would Reigns'.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Compared to AJ Styles though...

Honestly, who is leaps and bounds better?

[Mr. Nerfect]

I would say his only issue was being far too babyfaced ( not a good guy, just had the face of a baby) and those fucking highlights in his hair lol.

That, and jobbing to literally every single person of all time probably didn't help.

On another slightly different note... I find it so strange that Vince went with Austin--the reason he won the fucking war. And "real" character, who honestly went against the grain, but since then has gone back to trying to find the next Hulk Hogan. Don't get me wrong, I'm not for him finding the next Steve Austin, but he was so fucking different from the rest of Vince's "guys". From there, it's gone to Cena then Reigns, who've been booked as vanilla as they come. It just makes no sense to me. Where's the creativity?

This is something I often find myself thinking about. It is really weird that Vince went with a guy like Austin, who is so atypical for Vince, beyond the fact that when you think of Vince and the Attitude era, you actually think of Austin.

He's the only babyface Vince has only really ever tried to push without the smiley idiot stuff. The Rock also got away in the era, but was still initially pushed with that shtick, and always had the "gloss" that Vince likes. But it's really odd to think of such a...wrestler like Austin being so integral to the company.

When Vince has his back against the wall and he has to respond to fans, he honestly does his best work. But deep down, you know he probably somewhat hated it. And you hear about those tensions between Austin and Vince, and Vince trying to slip Rock into promotional and movie stuff ahead of Austin in the late 90's. Vince "had" to go with Austin, because otherwise people would be watching WCW.

My point: Maybe Vince should just shut the fuck up and listen to what he's got left of a fan-base and switch Roman heel and push the guy capturing hearts and minds and just see how far that can take him? Maybe they don't need to fit his exact view of an action hero come to life.

[Mr. Nerfect]

In the Attitude era, Styles would have done enough breathtaking stuff to be featured in plenty of highlight reels and that sort of shit. He may not have been WWE Champion for 200 days, but he'd have had plenty of merch, been popular and therefore gotten focus. Think along the lines of Rey Mysterio, Jeff Hardy, Rob Van Dam, and, at times, X-Pac. He'd have gotten the occasional important spot, sold his ass off for the heel kicking his ass, gotten cheers and people would have taken notes of his talent, which has always been there if not always as "matured" as it is today. In WCW, he would have been given the Cruiserweight Title and would have been talked about as one of the most exciting guys they have, and in the WWF probably would have sniffed a surprisingly important supporting spot as an MVP delivering stellar matches outside the Austin ass kickings. He wouldn't have been swept under the rug. People were going nuts for him in 2002, before Austin had even retired.

[#1-norm-fan]

Honestly, who is leaps and bounds better?

Cena. Miz. Wyatt. Orton. Ziggler. Basically anyone who can cut a believable promo and not sound like an awkward indy geek trying too hard to cut a generic wrestling promo automatically wins. There's also a ton of lower card guys who just don't get a chance to cut serious promos like Fandango who have shown the ability to work the mic like a pro if given the chance.

[Destor]

Ziggler should not be on that list

[#1-norm-fan]

In the Attitude era, Styles would have done enough breathtaking stuff to be featured in plenty of highlight reels and that sort of shit. He may not have been WWE Champion for 200 days, but he'd have had plenty of merch, been popular and therefore gotten focus. Think along the lines of Rey Mysterio, Jeff Hardy, Rob Van Dam, and, at times, X-Pac. He'd have gotten the occasional important spot, sold his ass off for the heel kicking his ass, gotten cheers and people would have taken notes of his talent, which has always been there if not always as "matured" as it is today. In WCW, he would have been given the Cruiserweight Title and would have been talked about as one of the most exciting guys they have, and in the WWF probably would have sniffed a surprisingly important supporting spot as an MVP delivering stellar matches outside the Austin ass kickings. He wouldn't have been swept under the rug. People were going nuts for him in 2002, before Austin had even retired.

Yes. I agree. He would have been Mysterio, Hardy, RVD, X-Pac. Valuable upper carder putting on good wrestling matches but not being pushed as the face of the company. That's where he belongs. You're making my point. I never said he's useless.

[#1-norm-fan]

Ziggler should not be on that list

He's better than Styles. We can debate "leaps and bounds" better I guess but... he's definitely better.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Cena. Miz. Wyatt. Orton. Ziggler. Basically anyone who can cut a believable promo and not sound like an awkward indy geek trying too hard to cut a generic wrestling promo automatically wins. There's also a ton of lower card guys who just don't get a chance to cut serious promos like Fandango who have shown the ability to work the mic like a pro if given the chance.

Here are the caveats with some of those guys:

* John Cena I'll 100% give you.

* The Miz can't wrestle to back it up.

* Wyatt's gimmick sucks and his promos haven't meant anything on the variety show without some point and credibility. People zone out and that's why he's stuck in a tag team with Matt Hardy and being auxiliary on pre-shows.

* Ziggler looked to be getting better, but then he came back down to "I'm trying...to have...a good...promo" mode.

* Orton is someone I love more and more, and I do love his "I don't give a fuck" style, but AJ has a similar thing.

It's really a wash for me. I think Joe is better on the mic, but Styles filters his charisma through his ring work just as well, so I actually find Styles that tiny bit more interesting (although I do love Joe). Heyman is obviously a master on the mic, but he's not a wrestler, so comparing their ring skills doesn't work out.

I dunno, man -- I think you're just really hard on AJ Styles.

[Fignuts]

I don't remember a single Orton promo.

Don't remember a single AJ promo either though.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Yes. I agree. He would have been Mysterio, Hardy, RVD, X-Pac. Valuable upper carder putting on good wrestling matches but not being pushed as the face of the company. That's where he belongs. You're making my point. I never said he's useless.

That's in the Attitude era. A lot of people would suggest that RVD should have been given a bigger push during the period, and Jeff Hardy would turn out to be the biggest draw they had in 2009. In a contemporary setting, those are the types of talent that are causing the buzz. You don't have an Austin or a Rock to supersede your star through performance.

It certainly wasn't Jinder. And crowds felt ready to take AJ Styles over Cena when they put him over. It didn't feel out of place. They chose Styles over Ambrose (quite decisively). The Wyatt/Orton/Jinder fiasco killed all interest in the WWE Title until Styles restored it somewhat. He's a lot more interesting and exciting than pretty much anyone else on the roster -- more "eloquent" or not. When he talks, I'm listening to him because I want to, whereas I don't give a flying fuck about Ziggler or Wyatt. That's partly charisma.

[#1-norm-fan]

Forgot about Kevin Owens. Miles better.

In fact, while I wouldn't have said this before, but from what I've seen of him recently, Sami Zayn has come off much better on the mic.

[Mr. Nerfect]

I don't remember a single Orton promo.

Don't remember a single AJ promo either though.

I remember AJ Styles' work against John Cena. That's more than I can say for most people.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Forgot about Kevin Owens. Miles better.

In fact, while I wouldn't have said this before, but from what I've seen of him recently, Sami Zayn has come off much better on the mic.

Owens is good at times, but tries to come off too clever for my liking. But yes, he can talk. I think his ring work is overrated though, and he needs a charisma transplant. Sami Zayn is great on the mic. Again, not the total package that AJ Styles is.

If we're just talking mic skills, and looking at them in isolation, I'll give you Cena, Joe, Owens, Zayn, Heyman and, fuck it, Orton. That's 5 guys. Cena is part-time. Orton has been played out in the role. Heyman doesn't wrestle. Neither Owens nor Zayn is the total package AJ is. Joe's great, but I'd rather build around AJ at this point in time. Joe is someone you can promote; AJ is someone you can market.

[Mr. Nerfect]

AJ is the perfect intersection of ring skill, mic skills, popularity, charisma, experience, credibility, aesthetic, marketability and, seemingly, attitude. He may not be the best in any one area (although I don't know if you will find someone better in the ring), but the way they all scaffold each other and negate any perceived weaknesses he might have is a perfect fit for WWE. Right now, anyway.

I'm very pro-Styles, and I'm not very pro many other people, because no one comes off like a star. He pulls that off. Even when they find that "guy," he'll still be buzzing around making them look good and getting everyone to pay attention. An amazing talent. He has fit the WWE and the WWE has, somewhat surprisingly, fit him. It's a perfect arrangement at the moment. They should follow it through to its logical conclusion, whatever that may be. He's the least offensive new WWE Champion since Bryan, which takes us back 5 years now. If they just change their focus a little bit, they might be able to milk even more out of him.

[#1-norm-fan]

Here are the caveats with some of those guys:

* John Cena I'll 100% give you.

* The Miz can't wrestle to back it up.

* Wyatt's gimmick sucks and his promos haven't meant anything on the variety show without some point and credibility. People zone out and that's why he's stuck in a tag team with Matt Hardy and being auxiliary on pre-shows.

* Ziggler looked to be getting better, but then he came back down to "I'm trying...to have...a good...promo" mode.

* Orton is someone I love more and more, and I do love his "I don't give a fuck" style, but AJ has a similar thing.

You asked who was a better promo. Miz is a better promo. What does his wrestling ability have to do with anything?

And Wyatt's character becoming shit because of creative also doesn't have anything to do with his promo ability. His promos became directionless on the main brand because his character became directionless. Given equal footing when you've gotta sell a program, Wyatt is a MILLION times better on the mic than Styles. Wyatt sells the shit out of what he's saying. Styles does not.

[#1-norm-fan]

I remember AJ Styles' work against John Cena. That's more than I can say for most people.

I remember that gif of him comically falling backwards against Gallows and Anderson trying to do the "heel trying to be funny while making fun of the face" thing and even in .gif form, the awkward tryhard-ness just oozed out of it.

[#1-norm-fan]

If we're just talking mic skills, and looking at them in isolation, I'll give you Cena, Joe, Owens, Zayn, Heyman and, fuck it, Orton. That's 5 guys. Cena is part-time. Orton has been played out in the role. Heyman doesn't wrestle. Neither Owens nor Zayn is the total package AJ is. Joe's great, but I'd rather build around AJ at this point in time. Joe is someone you can promote; AJ is someone you can market.

If we're talking isolated mic skills and you can't at least bring yourself to give The Miz the nod over him then I definitely think you've got a bias. I'm pretty sure 95% of the AJ Styles marks here wouldn't even go so far as to give him the nod on promo ability over The Miz. They're night and day.

[Fignuts]

The content of Wyatt's promos isn't always great, but his execution and delivery is miles above most of the roster. He completely transforms himself into the character, right down to the smallest mannerisms.

Styles, at this point in his career is solid on the mic. Sometimes he still sounds a little awkward though.

Just makes me more upset at how irrelevant they made Bray.

[#1-norm-fan]

Being comfortable and convincing on the mic is the first thing you need. Wyatt's character has been butchered by creative. Styles' has at times, too. Most of the roster has. But even as a totally out there and unbelievable character, it's ridiculous how well Wyatt sells that character even when his booking does everything imaginable to rob his credibility. He's golden on the mic. He'd be a legend in another era.

[Fignuts]

Seriously. New Face of Fear.

Who the fuck is going to be afraid of a guy who loses every match, even when he has backup from monsters like Harper and Rowan? Doesn't help that pretty much every one on the roster no sold Wyatt's creepy stuff except for Cena and the New Day.

So strong going into WM 30. All downhill from there.

[Mr. Nerfect]

You asked who was a better promo. Miz is a better promo. What does his wrestling ability have to do with anything?

And Wyatt's character becoming shit because of creative also doesn't have anything to do with his promo ability. His promos became directionless on the main brand because his character became directionless. Given equal footing when you've gotta sell a program, Wyatt is a MILLION times better on the mic than Styles. Wyatt sells the shit out of what he's saying. Styles does not.

Because when you're cutting a promo, you're selling something. The Miz is overrated because he's got nothing to sell. Bray Wyatt and The Miz can talk, but they aren't selling anything.

[Mr. Nerfect]

If we're talking isolated mic skills and you can't at least bring yourself to give The Miz the nod over him then I definitely think you've got a bias. I'm pretty sure 95% of the AJ Styles marks here wouldn't even go so far as to give him the nod on promo ability over The Miz. They're night and day.

The Miz can talk better than AJ Styles, but it doesn't mean anything because I'd prefer to watch AJ Styles perform over The Miz ten times out of ten. I'm not talking isolated mic skills -- I'm talking mic skills for a top guy. If The Miz cut a promo and then AJ said "Miz, I'm going to kick your Hollywood ass," Styles' lines would be more effective.

Being comfortable and convincing on the mic is the first thing you need. Wyatt's character has been butchered by creative. Styles' has at times, too. Most of the roster has. But even as a totally out there and unbelievable character, it's ridiculous how well Wyatt sells that character even when his booking does everything imaginable to rob his credibility. He's golden on the mic. He'd be a legend in another era.

Styles has been fucked around (didn't he lose to James Ellsworth like three weeks in a row?), but the reason he survives it is because of his charisma, lol. He's bulletproof, basically, because it shines through how good he is and people don't lose faith in him like they have the dudes you're accurately pointing out have been booked into oblivion.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Give Styles a year and a half on top with proper push and presentation and if he failsI will bow down. Until then it is pure speculation.

[Mr. Nerfect]

The thing is he kind of helps him own presentation, because he knows how to carry himself as a star, because he knows he's the best in-ring performer in the world.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

I mean his storylines. Yeah you can present yourself well but if they're booking you as a babyface to, say, be running away like a pussy from Kane, you're dead in the water.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Oh yeah, you're 100% right there. SmackDown has fucking sucked, what with James Ellsworth and Jinder Mahal: Main Event Stars.

[#1-norm-fan]

Because when you're cutting a promo, you're selling something. The Miz is overrated because he's got nothing to sell. Bray Wyatt and The Miz can talk, but they aren't selling anything.

The Miz can talk better than AJ Styles, but it doesn't mean anything because I'd prefer to watch AJ Styles perform over The Miz ten times out of ten. I'm not talking isolated mic skills -- I'm talking mic skills for a top guy. If The Miz cut a promo and then AJ said "Miz, I'm going to kick your Hollywood ass," Styles' lines would be more effective.

But again, if Nakamura, who can barely speak English, said the same line, the crowd would eat it up. Are you telling me that makes Nakamura a better mic worker than The Miz? It's presentation. You said "If we're just talking about mic skills and then looking at them in isolation..." and then went on to deduct points from people for their booking/what they can do in the ring.

Bray Wyatt as the creepy cult leader, The Miz as the Hollywood douchebag and Styles as the best in-ring performer in the company, all left on their own with a mic to sell a match, all booked completely equally, all outside factors taken out, Styles is left in the dust. He's a Tough Enough competitor doing a promo challenge by comparison.

[#1-norm-fan]

For the record, there's like 20 other guys I'd put above Styles on the mic but if we can't agree on The Miz, who seems like one of the more obvious ones, then it's kinda moot. Did not expect you to give me Sami Zayn but not The Miz. lol

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Fan: AJ is the drizzling shits on the mic

Us: No he's not

ie. this debate is going no where lol

[#1-norm-fan]

It's actually devolved into simply "He's not as good as The Miz on the mic" which I never saw coming.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

lol it's a unique turn which I also didn't see coming but I'm looking forward to where ol' Noidsy takes this.

[Mr. Nerfect]

But again, if Nakamura, who can barely speak English, said the same line, the crowd would eat it up. Are you telling me that makes Nakamura a better mic worker than The Miz? It's presentation. You said "If we're just talking about mic skills and then looking at them in isolation..." and then went on to deduct points from people for their booking/what they can do in the ring.

Bray Wyatt as the creepy cult leader, The Miz as the Hollywood douchebag and Styles as the best in-ring performer in the company, all left on their own with a mic to sell a match, all booked completely equally, all outside factors taken out, Styles is left in the dust. He's a Tough Enough competitor doing a promo challenge by comparison.

Lol, you're misconstruing me entirely. Yes, I'd say that I would consider Nakamura a better promo if his talking put asses in seats. Absolutely. Hogan would just ramble and ramble, but I absolutely consider a more effective promo than The Miz. If I said "looking at their ability to talk in isolation," that was a mistake. I don't think you can do that with a top guy. The Miz is more eloquent, has more range, can probably hit more octaves or whatever. AJ Styles is more captivating to me because his promo suits AJ Styles. If they were giving a public seminar in the same town, I'd go and see Styles' as opposed to The Miz's. Sorry, but Miz's ability to speak doesn't impress me very much, because I have zero interest in the things he has to say.

Looking at these skills in isolation is trivial to me -- because they're not in isolation. Like, I know what you're saying. The Miz can talk. I was going to say he'd be a better public speaker, but he really wouldn't be to me, because who the fuck wants to listen to The Miz? The way I see it is that there is a certain level where a promo works. AJ Styles is at a level where his promo works fine, and infused with his charisma and credibility I honestly believe they are more effective than The Miz's, therefore he is a better promo to me.

[Mr. Nerfect]

It's the difference between "mic skills" and "promo ability." Jay Leno has good mic skills; it doesn't necessarily mean he's a great promo. The Miz has cut one or two really good promos that I've seen. The Talking Smack one and that one on Raw where he talked about how he's overlooked, blah, blah. AJ Styles consistently makes me want to see what he does next.

[Stocky]

AJ styles won't be the top face after Nakacockpuncher is done with him.

http://i.imgur.com/Mfxz1TK.jpg

[Lock Jaw]

If I went to a house show, I would rather hear Miz talk than I would AJ Styles.

I'd rather see AJ, though.

[#1-norm-fan]

If they were both public speakers, Styles might have the edge of sounding less douchey and more genuine. Fortunately for The Miz, in wrestling, coming off douchey if you're a heel is a good thing. And unfortunately for Styles, in wrestling, you have to be able to act. If Styles' promos are "effective" at all then it's for hardcore marks who are obsessed with him as a wrestler and will cheer whatever because his promo ability doesn't matter (and because he's got a cool catchphrase they can say with him like a singalong). His promos are seriously a step above a decent backyard wrestling "I'm trying to do what I think a wrestling promo is" promo filled with awkwardness. It oozes from him. He's one of those guys who tries so hard to sound confident in what he's saying that it just gives it away to a painful level and it takes away all the credibility of what he's saying. The Miz sells himself better with a mic in his hands. Way better. I believe Miz is a cocky dickhole more than I believe Styles is "the face that runs the place" or whatever other catchphrase he's using now to help him manufacture confidence.

Besides that, I'm pretty sure Miz' promos sell the typical fan on wanting to see him getting his ass kicked more than Styles's promos do on wanting to see him kick someone's ass.

[Destor]

I think hot AJ promos are good. Geniunly quality B+ level promos. He cuts a shit cold promo though. C- at best.

[#1-norm-fan]

I usually turn the channel when I'm watching and he cuts a promo. Especially if someone else is around the TV because his promos make me embarrassed to be a wrestling fan. I actually watched his promo with Nakamura before WrestleMania and was just counting the awkward ticks and slip-ups that came from him trying to force confidence. It was brutal.

[Destor]

Yeah his cold promos are rough

[Mr. Nerfect]

If they were both public speakers, Styles might have the edge of sounding less douchey and more genuine. Fortunately for The Miz, in wrestling, coming off douchey if you're a heel is a good thing. And unfortunately for Styles, in wrestling, you have to be able to act. If Styles' promos are "effective" at all then it's for hardcore marks who are obsessed with him as a wrestler and will cheer whatever because his promo ability doesn't matter (and because he's got a cool catchphrase they can say with him like a singalong). His promos are seriously a step above a decent backyard wrestling "I'm trying to do what I think a wrestling promo is" promo filled with awkwardness. It oozes from him. He's one of those guys who tries so hard to sound confident in what he's saying that it just gives it away to a painful level and it takes away all the credibility of what he's saying. The Miz sells himself better with a mic in his hands. Way better. I believe Miz is a cocky dickhole more than I believe Styles is "the face that runs the place" or whatever other catchphrase he's using now to help him manufacture confidence.

Besides that, I'm pretty sure Miz' promos sell the typical fan on wanting to see him getting his ass kicked more than Styles's promos do on wanting to see him kick someone's ass.

Completely disagree. I do not see those things you see in AJ. That's your thing, but I'm hyper-critical of the product these days and I don't see them, so whatever. We're just going to disagree.

[Ruien]

So confused on why there is a debate with Miz and AJ over charisma or mic skills. Its totally one sided.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Lol, in no way is The Miz as charismatic as AJ Styles. Look at their career trajectories and listen to the fan reactions for them. I can understand where #fan is coming from with the mic skills, but charisma?

Charisma =/= mic skills. It doesn't need to be loud or expressive. It can be intrinsic. AJ Styles commands an arena when he walks out there. The Miz stomps out like he wants to. He tries hard. He's got a great ethic. As far as "WWE entertaining" goes, you can give him a microphone and words will come out of his face with the intended cadence and whatever. That's like answering a multiple choice question with an essay though.

I think #fan is grading them by the WWE's usual standards of what they look for in a variety entertainer (hence his comments about acting and such). There's merit to that point. In a wrestling context though, I think that's a false framing of talent though. I think the work happens through genuine emotion, which Styles manages to milk and The Miz doesn't.

So yeah, Miz is probably perfect for the WWE right now. Charisma or not, they can push him how they like and people will just have to deal with it anyway. It's why Reigns hasn't needed to go away. Getting sick of Dolph or Bray? Deal with more of them -- we've got them locked down for 10 years. AJ has managed to navigate his way to the top of the card is such a short time because of things like his ring skills, charisma, marketabilty and his work ethic. I think the evidence as to who is a better all-round professional wrestler is there.

And that does influence your promo. I'm sorry, but it does. Otherwise you could do what Vince Russo suggested and just hire actors and train them up. A promo is not the same as a thespian monologue. Some people do tell an eloquent story with their promos (see: Cactus Jack). Others rant and rave and barely make any sense, and if it that works, it works. Just because someone can memorize ten minutes of dialogue, it does not make them an effective promo. It makes them useful for what the WWE wants. The Miz is not a better promo than Dusty Rhodes. He's not. That being said, Dusty Rhodes would be a terrible actor. Dusty absolutely fucking sucked at commentary. Promos =/= eloquence.

As a result, when AJ Styles cuts his promo, and I believe him to be genuine and I know that I'll be getting some sort of in-ring pay-off to what he's saying, I get far more into it than when The Miz hosts his "talk show" segments. If AJ Styles said "give me $20," I'll be more likely to do it than if The Miz said that. That's what a promo is there for. It's there to hype a fight. Styles can do that a lot more effectively because of his credibility than The Miz, because The Miz lacks it. His good promos have played into this and exploited that in order to make you see him either want to succeed or fail. "I was forced to change in the hallway because no one took me seriously." "You talk about what a great wrestler you are, but your neck is broken and my neck is not." Those were good. Really good. "I'm the most must-see Superstar in the WWE and I'm going to win back my Intercontinental Title!" Eh.

The Miz's delivery is ace. His verbal control could be considered better. But it goes to a delivery/deliverer diametric.

[#1-norm-fan]

If The Great Khali said "give me $20", I'd be more likely to do it than if AJ Styles said that.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Nah, Styles wins that one too. Styles could catch me.

[Simple Fan]

Yeah AJ is loaded, he doesn't need $20.

[#1-norm-fan]

Alright, fair point. If New Jack said "give me $20", I'd be more likely to do it than if Styles did.

[Mr. Nerfect]

New Jack was a great promo.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Yeah AJ is loaded, he doesn't need $20.

Okay, he can just go home then?

[#1-norm-fan]

So can we at least agree that New Jack was way better than Styles?

[Destor]

Just wanna chime in and say the miz is not charismatic. He's a good showman though.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Just wanna chime in and say the miz is not charismatic. He's a good showman though.

:y:

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

I think the Miz is very competent on the mic but his mic skills are vastly over rated.

[Mr. Nerfect]

So can we at least agree that New Jack was way better than Styles?

Um, I'll need to think more on that. New Jack could talk and talk, but did it pay-off? I'd fine a use for him talking, kind of like Miz, but he'd be on AJ Styles' card, and not vice versa.

We're getting deep into promo philosophy and that sort of stuff, haha. I just think you rate Styles way too low as a promo. He's got this naturalistic style and I think he has a flare for making the WWE scripts sound like they come from him as much as possible. Kurt Angle was also very good at that.

This has made me realize that I would like to see a New Jack vs. Miz feud, haha.

[Swiss Ultimate]

AJ promos in TNA were bad. I haven't watched WWE in years now, is AJ that much better on the mic now?

I only ever had issues with AJ's finisher and early TNA match storytelling in general, but I did like him a lot. Thought his mic work was bad back then. Surprised he is so successful now, honestly.

[My Final Heaven]

Miz is adequate as a heel, but he's been a bit ruined for me by the fanbase. There's too many people on WWE Facebook comments crowing about how he's the greatest commodity the company has and the best wrestler of the past 10 years, because he's been booked super strong and he gets the last word in all of his feuds.

There was a guy a week or two ago, whose argument was that Miz is a better promo and a better performer than vintage Ric Flair :lol:

[My Final Heaven]

AJ can be a pretty brutally cringe promo, but his delivery improves tenfold if he has something important to talk about. Miz is consistent, but that can mean he cuts the same spoiled douchebag script every time he's hyping a match. "I'm important because I do movies, I hold my breath until my face turns into a tomato, ect. ect. ect. O yeah, and is My hand goes UP, your mouths go SHUT a thing yet? I really want to make that a shirt."

[Swiss Ultimate]

Miz should definitely WOOOOO more.

[Mr. Nerfect]

AJ promos in TNA were bad. I haven't watched WWE in years now, is AJ that much better on the mic now?

I only ever had issues with AJ's finisher and early TNA match storytelling in general, but I did like him a lot. Thought his mic work was bad back then. Surprised he is so successful now, honestly.

I think he's a lot better. He's not super-eloquent, but he delivers everything with confidence and competence. He's a far better "actor" than most of the other wrestlers too, although it's a shame that's factored in. He's seriously done some good stuff, and the content and charisma of his promos is through the charts at times.

TNA was probably good practice.

[Mr. Nerfect]

AJ can be a pretty brutally cringe promo, but his delivery improves tenfold if he has something important to talk about. Miz is consistent, but that can mean he cuts the same spoiled douchebag script every time he's hyping a match. "I'm important because I do movies, I hold my breath until my face turns into a tomato, ect. ect. ect. O yeah, and is My hand goes UP, your mouths go SHUT a thing yet? I really want to make that a shirt."

:y: