So they're "giving up on Reigns as a top guy" allegedly

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

If this is actually true, I'm sure none of us are upset. But they definitely didn't do everything they could to get him over. I mean in their heads I'm sure they think they did... but I honestly don't think it would have been rocket science to go in different directions with his character that would have led to him being the "top guy" and the torch bearer for the company. Simply getting hit with 800,000 finishers and overcoming the odds isn't enough anymore. How did they think that's all they'd have to do?


This is not Roman Reigns' failure, it is the company's failure. And no matter who they choose to be "the guy" will suffer the same fate as Roman.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

I honestly just don't get why it was so hard for them to do anything remotely creative or risky with this dude they wanted to be "the guy".

Even when they'd job him out it was boring. They added no new wrinkles to his character EVER, and they would march him out there week after week to get booed out of the building. They didn't have to turn him heel like all the dumbasses wanted... just try different shit to get him over that went beyond the cookie cutter bullshit they tried.

[#1-norm-fan]

It's hard for them to do anything remotely creative with anyone really because they're not remotely creative.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

"Instead of having Roman kick out of five F5s this week, how about he kicks out of six F5s?"

"GENIUS!"

[Evil Vito]

I'll believe it when I see it.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

doesn't matter either way tbh. Whoever the "top guy" is will either get the Reigns treatment, will be a part-timer, or will be booked like a jobber until they say he can't draw and they have to go back to Reigns. And then get upset that Roman gets booed even though they've done nothing to evolve his character.

[Evil Vito]

Guessing they'll go with Lashley next since he was rumored to feud with Brock from the offset.

If Brock didn't like working with Braun, he'll be in for a real treat with Lashley. Dude has looked atrociously unsafe during his first few matches back.

[erickman]

too bad they did not let him go heel, then he would be over

[Ruien]

Lashley has the look. Would be a nice choice as he seems fun to watch.

I would still roll with Rollins too.

While they build someone up give Braun the title for like 3 or 4 months. Then he drifts back to where he is now while the new face of the company and whoever feuds.

[Damian Rey 2.0]

They forced this boring, cookie cutter babyface down everyone's throat and it didn't get over? Stunned. The easy way out was a heel turn. Not particularly creative but it'd have been different and given him the chance to expand his character.

[El Fangel]

I love Roman, the person, not the character. Guy busted his ass to get where he is, not his fault he is booked like Cena once was. You'd think WWE would have learned its lesson from that.

Also Roman would work so much better as a tweener or full on heel, but christ he is booked as Superman.

And his limited boring moveset wouldn't be too bad, if he was entertaining on the mic at all. He is average at worst in both, so while not bad, he is booked due to his look. Reminds me a lot of Sid tbh.

[Frank Drebin]

Remember when Roman was the 2nd to last guy in the Rumble against Batista? He was an underdog and the crowd was going wild for him. If they only could have called an audible then, I think we would have a totally different situation for Reigns now.

[slik]

If they do he'll still be a top face, just not 'the' top face. He won't exactly be dropping too far down the card.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

yep. you can tell via the finish in the cage match. Not that he should go down the card, with all the time invested in him.

[El Fangel]

He should feud with Rollins for the IC Title. It'd make it seem more important, they have history, and would get him out of the spotlight for a bit.

And on that note, fuck Lesnar.

[Shisen Kopf]

Just have him believe he is an actual Roman. Cut his hair. Make him dress like a gladiator. Call him Spartacus and have Ric Flair manage him.

[Savio]

They should have him join the alt-right and post Pepe the frog memes.

[Shisen Kopf]

Have him become a transgender Woman Reigns

[Maluco]

I don't think he was ever good enough. But the product, unfortunately, has far deeper problems than an average guy with no it factor on top. For me, as a potential fan though, would be great news if he was depushed. Sick looking at him and his superman punches

[Swiss Ultimate]

If this is actually true, I'm sure none of us are upset. But they definitely didn't do everything they could to get him over. I mean in their heads I'm sure they think they did... but I honestly don't think it would have been rocket science to go in different directions with his character that would have led to him being the "top guy" and the torch bearer for the company. Simply getting hit with 800,000 finishers and overcoming the odds isn't enough anymore. How did they think that's all they'd have to do?


This is not Roman Reigns' failure, it is the company's failure. And no matter who they choose to be "the guy" will suffer the same fate as Roman.


I was just about to make a thread about my idea for rebooting Roman Reigns into a silent brooding psychopath, a la Evil Goldberg.

[Sepholio]

BRRRRAAAAAUUUUUUNNNNNNNNNN

[Sepholio]

Seriously though I would probably go with Rollins. They could easily make him the face of the company for now. Turn Reigns and have him be a long term nemesis to Rollins and eventually they could easily flip him face and get the reaction they have been trying to force.

[Swiss Ultimate]

Brock Lesnar is the face of the company.

[#1-norm-fan]

Lashley would be a good choice for now. They'd just have to work around his promos. He's naturally got the badass vibe they wanted to manufacture with Reigns and he's fun to watch. If Lesnar's contract is short term, I'd have Heyman turn against him before he leaves and join up with Lashley.

[El Fangel]

Brock Lesnar is the face of the company.

I can't get behind a man with a cock bruise on his chest.

[Swiss Ultimate]

That's not very progressive.

[Savio]

Have Enzo team up with Lashley when he comes back.

"I'm a certified G and a bonifide stud. and you can't teach that!

This right here is Big Lash he's african american and you can't teach that!

Bada boom! Realest niggas in the room!"

[slik]

Roman will work better as a upper mid-card face than top-face
I think Roman, Seth, Finn and Lashley are the big faces on RAW besides Braun, who is clearly the top face on RAW.

[Ultra Mantis]

Fandango just got moved back to Raw, can't be a coincidence.

[Swiss Ultimate]

Who do the fans get behind these days?

Joe? AJ? Bryan?

[erickman]

Who do the fans get behind these days?

Joe? AJ? Bryan?

rusev

[Sixx]

Guessing they'll go with Lashley next since he was rumored to feud with Brock from the offset.

If Brock didn't like working with Braun, he'll be in for a real treat with Lashley. Dude has looked atrociously unsafe during his first few matches back.

But... but he's black!

On a serious note, Braun gets the best reactions but he can't be the "face of the company". Not that look.

[Maluco]

Roman is naturally smarmy and cocky. You can see it I his reactions and you can see it in how he responds to questions about fans opinion. He thinks he is the tits.

Book him like that, cocky heel with enforcers who calls himself the big dog and always takes the easy way out. Make him the heel to Rollins/AJ/Lashley faces. Get him some trunks and a proper theme, get him an "Empire" with Usos and a bodyguard from NXT.

He isn't who they want him to be

[Lock Jaw]

Who is saying they are allegedly giving up on Reigns?

Meltzer?,,,,,

[Emperor Smeat]

I honestly just don't get why it was so hard for them to do anything remotely creative or risky with this dude they wanted to be "the guy".

Even when they'd job him out it was boring. They added no new wrinkles to his character EVER, and they would march him out there week after week to get booed out of the building. They didn't have to turn him heel like all the dumbasses wanted... just try different shit to get him over that went beyond the cookie cutter bullshit they tried.

Main reason is they wanted him to be the next Cena and stubbornly booked him that way early on instead of letting him develop his own groove as a potential mega star. Also didn't help this happened during the same time as Bryan's organic rise as a top star and Vince resenting it.

Every time it seems like they might have learned or are taking him into a new direction, they go right back to the failed forced booking habits that has been proven to not work for years.

[ClockShot]

Ain't believing any of this until after Backlash.

If Roman isn't put into another title match with Lesnar, then okay this rumor has some credibility.

Overall, however, I'd like to know if Roman Reigns had ANY input in this push he's had going on for the last couple years know. Did he offer any insight/ideas to the higher ups or Vince on how he could present himself?

Or, did he just nod his head up and down and say "Yes, Vince" at every opportunity and didn't do fuck all.

As the saying goes, "If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem."

[Black Widow]

They could decide on Hornswoggle being the number 1 guy and y'all would still be Vince's bitch handing y'alls $ over.

[Swiss Ultimate]

Ain't believing any of this until after Backlash.

If Roman isn't put into another title match with Lesnar, then okay this rumor has some credibility.

Overall, however, I'd like to know if Roman Reigns had ANY input in this push he's had going on for the last couple years know. Did he offer any insight/ideas to the higher ups or Vince on how he could present himself?

Or, did he just nod his head up and down and say "Yes, Vince" at every opportunity and didn't do fuck all.

As the saying goes, "If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem."

I think he's just vanilla on the inside.

[Bad News Gertner]

Source/link?

[Swiss Ultimate]

Vince emailed him.

[Ruien]

Source/link?

Me

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Actuall Swiss, it was a posthumous e-mail from Lord Alfred Hayes.

[Frank Drebin]

On a serious note, Braun gets the best reactions but he can't be the "face of the company". Not that look.

If Braun was as congenial as Cena I could see the gentle giant thing getting over with people. He's not "insane" Andre sized though I guess.

[Sixx]

If Braun was as congenial as Cena I could see the gentle giant thing getting over with people. He's not "insane" Andre sized though I guess.

Still not the face of WWE. Face of the WWE needs to be someone women cream over, not someone men cream over.

[El Fangel]

That's not very progressive.

Neither was the Greatest Royal Rumble, but for different reasons.

[#1-norm-fan]

Fandango just got moved back to Raw, can't be a coincidence.

If... fucking... only...

[Frank Drebin]

Still not the face of WWE. Face of the WWE needs to be someone women cream over, not someone men cream over.

Women love guys who are good with kids. Kids like Nicholas.

[Emperor Smeat]

So time to give Heath Slater a mega push?

He's got kids like his shirt says and feeds them only the finest quality of cheese and crackers money can buy.

[Frank Drebin]

Never know till you try...

[xrodmuc316]

I think where they really screwed Roman over was in 2014 when he was a singles wrestled for a few months, got hurt, then WAS forced him down our throats and gave him Superstar of the year based on nothing. That is when the backlash to him really started.

Then he came back from the injury and was clearly the chosen guy, that and Vince gave him lame cartoony promos. WWE doesn't allow people to get themselves over then go with that guy, in fact they almost go out of their way to squash guys that get over that they didn't decide.

Look at Rusev, clearly he should have won the U.S. Title at Mania with the crowd behind him, instead they go with Jinder just so he can drop it to Jeff Hardy 8 days later. Jeff Hardy couldn't just get drafted to Smackdown and challenge Rusev for the belt?

WWE should have turned Roman Heel after he beat Taker last year. Heel Roman would get over like gangbusters. He needs to come out Monday and blame all the fans for him getting screwed out of the cage match. Mix a little Bret Hart blaming Americans with Chris Jericho heeling on Shawn Michaels. Do some dastardly things like coming out during a face vs face Cruiserweight match and destroying both of them just because he can.

Maybe go out and Smack Corey Graves around.

Get retroactively vengeful on Rollins, which would be bad since they forgave Rollins already. Vicious Heel Roman would get over huge, and an eventual baby face turn a year down the road would get him even more over.

Roman as he is now is done. It hasn't worked, and it can't work after the losses, and it won't work unless Vince gives up this stubbornness he has that makes him think Roman is about to turn the corner and be THE Star.

[Tom Guycott]

Remember when Roman was the 2nd to last guy in the Rumble against Batista? He was an underdog and the crowd was going wild for him. If they only could have called an audible then, I think we would have a totally different situation for Reigns now.

Interesting "what if", especially considering the crowd would have gone apeshit for just about anyone other than telegraphing Batista.

Still think it's funny that it looked like they were preparing themselves to piggyback off of the impending success of Guardians of the Galaxy (nobody knew it was going to be the runaway smash that it would become, but this was still past the point of everyone being aware that MCU was a licence to print money), and they instead didn't think it would do that well. It's like they had themselves set up for that cross-promotinal, mainstream media appeal they look to manufacture, but it ironically wasn't in their plan at all.

[KIRA]

I want to say they f***** up when they had him going over the guy who was clearly beloved by fans and insanely popular and they kept doing it on purpose you really can't do that expect people to just be okay with it. Then they settled him with a fight from underneath Underdog gimmick and when that didn't work he just became straight up Superman. I think he was just an experiment that was doomed to fail because they didn't know how to put him across which is weird considering his attitude in the shield was what got him over in the first place and it was just being a silent badass.

[xrodmuc316]

Interesting "what if", especially considering the crowd would have gone apeshit for just about anyone other than telegraphing Batista.

Still think it's funny that it looked like they were preparing themselves to piggyback off of the impending success of Guardians of the Galaxy (nobody knew it was going to be the runaway smash that it would become, but this was still past the point of everyone being aware that MCU was a licence to print money), and they instead didn't think it would do that well. It's like they had themselves set up for that cross-promotinal, mainstream media appeal they look to manufacture, but it ironically wasn't in their plan at all.

Actually, according to Batista, WWE thought the movie wasn't gonna be anything, and they didn't even mention it, let alone try to piggyback on it.

[Tom Guycott]

... which is what I just mentioned.

It's as ironic as Cesaro and later Strowman hitting all of Vince's bullet points on what a wrestler should be, and when it actually lands in his lap, he does fuck-all with it because reasons.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Remember when Roman was the 2nd to last guy in the Rumble against Batista? He was an underdog and the crowd was going wild for him. If they only could have called an audible then, I think we would have a totally different situation for Reigns now.

No way. People were just pissed off because they weren't getting Bryan. Reigns going against Orton would have been riddled with "Daniel Bryan" chants and he'd have still flopped.

The WWE constantly piss all over kayfabe. They constantly remind you that this shit doesn't matter and that it's all performance art. How can they be surprised when someone is picked out, seemingly arbitrarily, and groomed to be universally loved? It's an absolutely insane idea. Vince simultaneously wants to disown pro-wrestling, all the while he wants pro-wrestling techniques to get Roman over as a top guy.

There's an aesthetic problem with Reigns. They have him dressed up like a kid playing army man. Rollins and Ambrose evolved their look when they moved on. The WWE has clung to that Shield aesthetic in a desperate and hollow attempt to try and keep him over. It didn't work. It won't ever work. Few things are certain in this world, but there is no way crowds are just going to turn around on the guy without any change from him. His entrance is nauseating. He has about three different logos and motifs flashing on the screen, all of them clashing and in juxtaposition to each other. It's like seven different billboards spliced together and it's an affront that just makes you sick of the guy before he even does anything.

His booking has been spotty. You can understand why they've done certain things with him. They've done everything they would do with classical babyfaces that would work when people believed in the guy. The 2015 Royal Rumble would have been brilliant if people liked Reigns and put stock in Kane and Big Show in 2015. But they don't on both counts. And lately they've been trying to get him "over" by pointing out that he got his ass kicked and is looking sad.

His scripts suck and the guy has got no babyface instincts. Apparently it was his idea to get carted off like a little bitch in the 2016 Rumble. You can see him trying to act when he's out there, like he's trying to remember what a cool babyface looks like all the time. Ironically, if you turned him heel he'd instantly be awesome.

I don't believe they're cutting bait on Reigns. I imagine that they've just worked out that since belts don't matter anymore, they can still put him on posters and call him the biggest star and no one will ask any questions like good obedient viewers. I was saying a while ago that I would not be surprised if Brock retained the belt -- it's only Vince's stubbornness that makes you think he would have gone with him.

They'll go with Braun short-term. And that will suck, because it's Braun, and he's worse than Reigns, and when someone else gets that push it will be as nauseating as it was with Reigns, and people will start whinging. I wish they'd just end this fucking stupid roster split and put everybody back on the one roster and have Styles beat Brock. If they need separate rosters, I'd go with Joe beating Reigns at Backlash and then beating Brock at MITB. Then I'd nominate Lashley. I'd take Roode. I'd love for Bryan to come over. But they'll go with Braun. Be careful what you wished for...

I was just thinking yesterday that I'd be quite happy for a Roman Reigns that has failed to win the belt, couldn't beat Joe and couldn't win MITB to turn heel on Rollins and go after the IC Title. I think that feud could be really good with both guys in their natural alignment. But I think they'll probably have Reigns stay babyface and just keep buzzing him around the belt whenever they want.

[Mr. Nerfect]

... which is what I just mentioned.

It's as ironic as Cesaro and later Strowman hitting all of Vince's bullet points on what a wrestler should be, and when it actually lands in his lap, he does fuck-all with it because reasons.

Neither guy hits all of Vince's bullets. Cesaro lacks that extroverted charisma that Vince likes in his top stars. Also, he talks with an accent instead of like a gruff American. Braun's got size, the look and probably the attitude, but he also lacks skill in the ring.

[Tom Guycott]

Yeah, like Vince really gives a shit about skill in the ring. We wouldn't have had the influx of smaller guys doing twice as much to try to get half the exposure if WWE never got that deserved reputation of "land of the giants". And Cesaro was, at one point, T-shirts waiting to happen. The heavy talking could have been handled (where it looked like it was going to go at first) by Heyman. Cesaro Sections were everywhere and folks popped huge for a goddamn giant swing.

Meanwhile, we were supposed to go crazy for Rusev at a time when Rusev was in such a generic 80's foreign heel package, he may as well just have worn Ivan Drago's trunks with Nikolai Volkoff's jacket, or even currently buy into the idea that Baron Corbin isn't almost total ass with very few sparks of anything besides being tall enough.

[Mr. Nerfect]

As the face of the company? Yeah, he does a little bit. He doesn't go for technical wizards all the time, but Hogan, Bret, Shawn, Austin, Rock, Triple H, Brock, Cena and Reigns are all much better wrestlers than Braun is. He'd be the biggest and the least skilled of them all. Braun would actually be a departure from what Vince usually looks for.

We've got an influx of smaller guys doing twice as much because that's how the business has devalued itself. You need to do twice as much to get "over" with a dwindling audience. Triple H hires them because he wants to get over as the head of developmental and Vince puts them on TV because that's who is coming through the pipeline in NXT. They're factored into functional positions. But the plan has been Reigns since at least 2012.

I love Cesaro as much as the next guy. Him getting fucked up in 2014 still has me sore. But he got the chance to move t-shirts and it didn't really happen. The Cesaro Section thing was something I wanted to catch on, but it just didn't. Heyman had his hands tied and was told to talk about Brock, but there's a reason for that -- they didn't want him to be the guy. Cena and Reigns don't have managers talking for them. Brock is the exception because he's Brock. If Cesaro moved numbers like Brock, then he could be in that position, but he doesn't, so Vince won't put him in that position.

Baron Corbin is a fucking mess. I have no clue what Vince sees in the guy there, but it's probably enhanced by backstage stuff and him just giving Vince that mental stiffy. Who knows what Vince and doesn't see sometimes. I think he's dead wrong about Corbin if he thinks he's got something there. But Corbin is still more competent than Strowman in the ring. He's boring as fuck, but he's not as sloppy.

[xrodmuc316]

... which is what I just mentioned.

It's as ironic as Cesaro and later Strowman hitting all of Vince's bullet points on what a wrestler should be, and when it actually lands in his lap, he does fuck-all with it because reasons.

Whoops, you did. That's what I get for not reading your entire post :$:(

[Loose Cannon]

man if his whole "i work 24/7 for this company and Brock's a part timer" thing didn't get over, there's no hope.

[Droford]

Roman will win the IC title and be the focus of RAW in Brock's absence though

probably

[Heisenberg]

Roman just needs more vignettes instead of the formula of him coming out, staring around and telling everyone it's his yard. Make people care about him before throwing him into heavy damage matches

[Evil Vito]

WHAT IS JOE RAINS DOING IN THE IMPACT ZONE?!?!?!

[Tonya Harding]

TOnya Harding vs Roe Reigns at SummerSLam

[Dark One]

If he goes back to his home planet via floating off screen in the overrun tonight, then we'll know.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

If he goes back to his home planet via floating off screen in the overrun tonight, then we'll know.

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

It's crazy how the Big "DOG" is Poochie.

[slik]

Braun and Seth Rollins are really the top faces on RAW r/n

Let Finn turn heel and he can be a top heel alongside KO/Sami (but hopefully win more than they do).

[Sixx]

Braun and Seth Rollins are really the top faces on RAW r/n

Let Finn turn heel and he can be a top heel alongside KO/Sami (but hopefully win more than they do).

Are KO/Sami "top" in any aspect?

Last I checked they were pretty much a laughing stock.

[Blonde Moment]

Are KO/Sami "top" in any aspect?

Last I checked they were pretty much a laughing stock.

I dunno man. People pay to see them get their asses kicked so what more could a promoter ask for?

[Sixx]

I dunno man. People pay to see them get their asses kicked so what more could a promoter ask for?

Hm, well, good point.

But still, they aren't "top". I don't know the rosters, so I'm not sure if there's someone "more evil" than them on their brand, though.

[Evil Vito]

If he goes back to his home planet via floating off screen in the overrun tonight, then we'll know.

Whenever Roman Reigns is not on screen, all of the other characters should be asking "where's Roman?"

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Whenever Roman Reigns is not on screen, all of the other characters should be asking "where's Roman?"

The worst part is this is exactly what happens.

[slik]

Hm, well, good point.

But still, they aren't "top". I don't know the rosters, so I'm not sure if there's someone "more evil" than them on their brand, though.

The other big heels on RAW are now Baron Corbin and Jinder Mahal, so prospects are pretty bleak on the RAW heel side currently.

[Sixx]

The other big heels on RAW are now Baron Corbin and Jinder Mahal, so prospects are pretty bleak on the RAW heel side currently.

Wow, yeah, that sounds pretty damn weak.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Finn Balor would be much more lively as a heel, but again, I don't buy him beating up a 6'3, 250lbs dude. Reigns should be the heel. If people cheer that...good.

[DAMN iNATOR]

But... but he's black!

On a serious note, Braun gets the best reactions but he can't be the "face of the company". Not that look.

I know you're just kidding around, but he was actually in the WWE Championship picture towards what ended up being the end of his first WWE run. 5-Pack "Championship Challenge" at Vengeance: Night of Champions and 1-on-1 with Cena at The Great American Bash (2007).

I sincerely believe he nor anyone else won the belt from Cena because Vince was very much sold on letting Cena run with it for as long as he wanted. Of course, Cena fell victim to injury en route to No Mercy, but that's neither here nor there. Fact is, sometime between GAB '07 and the 7/30 episode of RAW, Lashley was injured which they covered for with a kayfabe injury in a match with Mr. Kennedy.

He was set to return in 2008 until apparently Michael P.S. Hayes was a huge racist asshole to him backstage and he essentially quit and was quietly let go in February 2008.

But yeah...he's really just kinda... THERE so far. Hasn't wowed me at all. The answer to the question as it pertains to Lashley of what have you done for me lately, is nothing. Braun on the other hand is still wildly popular. Give him the belt from SummerSlam through the start of 2019 as a transitional guy and have him drop it to somebody worthwhile who would actually be believable in toppling him and who will actually fit the mold of the new face of the company. Shit, have him and AJ work a program and at some point just unify the titles with AJ going over. He's proven he's money on SDL, why not make him undisputed company champ and let him be a free agent who can compete on either or both shows each week?

[The MAC]

I'll just leave this here

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/J4vZPGKAlw0" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[A.J.K]

Reigns should go back to basics. Ditch the tactical gear, give him a new look and gimmick.

Maybe Back to Roman Leake

[Damian Rey 2.0]

The idea of him being a spoiled, entitled hand chosen company man who uses his family name to get ahead, who also happensto be a wrecking machine while he's at it, would be a wonderful turn off character for him.

[Damian Rey 2.0]

Just heard the Cornette take. Go with that.

[Evil Vito]

He needs a complete presentation overhaul. Save the Shield theme and gear for when the group reunites again down the line. Then it might feel like it actually means something.

How the fuck did Vince McMahon of all people decide it would be a good idea to cover this guy up??

http://www.wwe.com/f/styles/gallery_img_l/public/photo/image/2015/03/013_NXT_11112012ej_1003-1513851742.jpg

[#1-norm-fan]

Cornette makes a good obvious point about the sympathy thing. They try to get everyone over the same way. There's no thought of "does this work for this specific guy" anymore. Outside of Lesnar, every heel has to be a chicken shit at least occasionally and every face has to be sympathetic.

Reigns should not be getting his ass kicked constantly to get over as a face. Cena should not have been getting his ass kicked constantly to get over as a face. It doesn't fit them. It fits a Daniel Bryan type. Let the smaller guys get the sympathy and the muscled up beasts be muscled up fucking beasts.

Ryback should have told them everything they need to know. He got massively over just kicking ass to the point where as soon as he faced off with the heel everyone wanted to see get their shit kicked in, the crowd backed him INSTANTLY. He became "their guy". So they respond by making him look weak. He was still over to some extent because they never pushed him to the moon at that point but... it's just so fucking simple. It's insane how this company doesn't learn from what works and what doesn't.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

They're obsessed with heat. I think Alvarez harps on it a lot. Steve Austin while having to "overcome odds" always delivered comeuppance. Very rarely did he just flat out get his ass kicked without there being severe repercussions on the same show.

[Damian Rey 2.0]

Austin was an ass kicker tho. Getting comeuppance and refusing to stay down fit his character.

I wonder if Roman still has that physique at this point. He's older now, and maybe they cover him up for a reason.

[Sixx]

Bet he's got pointy nipples.

[xrodmuc316]

Cornette makes a good obvious point about the sympathy thing. They try to get everyone over the same way. There's no thought of "does this work for this specific guy" anymore. Outside of Lesnar, every heel has to be a chicken shit at least occasionally and every face has to be sympathetic.

Reigns should not be getting his ass kicked constantly to get over as a face. Cena should not have been getting his ass kicked constantly to get over as a face. It doesn't fit them. It fits a Daniel Bryan type. Let the smaller guys get the sympathy and the muscled up beasts be muscled up fucking beasts.

Ryback should have told them everything they need to know. He got massively over just kicking ass to the point where as soon as he faced off with the heel everyone wanted to see get their shit kicked in, the crowd backed him INSTANTLY. He became "their guy". So they respond by making him look weak. He was still over to some extent because they never pushed him to the moon at that point but... it's just so fucking simple. It's insane how this company doesn't learn from what works and what doesn't.

Another case of a guy getting over WAY more than expected/supposed to, so WWE went out of their way to book him to lose all of his momentum. What's really sad is they decided what a year and a half later "hey let's have Ryback go back to the monster face for the Survivor Series Authority angle", and leading up to that in a short time he almost got back to the same level of being over, then of course WWE had him eliminated from the Survivor Series match in like 5 minutes.

[Sixx]

Bet he's got pointy nipples.

That are very sensitive.

[Emperor Smeat]

Ryback should have told them everything they need to know. He got massively over just kicking ass to the point where as soon as he faced off with the heel everyone wanted to see get their shit kicked in, the crowd backed him INSTANTLY. He became "their guy". So they respond by making him look weak. He was still over to some extent because they never pushed him to the moon at that point but... it's just so fucking simple. It's insane how this company doesn't learn from what works and what doesn't.
Also didn't help Ryback was only filling in for Cena and wasn't getting his own legit big push. That damaged him a lot more in the long term than his booking with the Punk feud.

Could have salvaged his aura as a star if they had him beat Henry at Mania but by that point they lost all interest in him and then did him no favors by feeding him right to Cena because they wanted Cena to soak dry what was left of his aura with crowds.

[xrodmuc316]

Also didn't help Ryback was only filling in for Cena and wasn't getting his own legit big push. That damaged him a lot more in the long term than his booking with the Punk feud.

Exactly, God forbid WWE calls an audible. Not like Ryback would have hurt Cenas status anyways.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Cornette makes a good obvious point about the sympathy thing. They try to get everyone over the same way. There's no thought of "does this work for this specific guy" anymore. Outside of Lesnar, every heel has to be a chicken shit at least occasionally and every face has to be sympathetic.

Reigns should not be getting his ass kicked constantly to get over as a face. Cena should not have been getting his ass kicked constantly to get over as a face. It doesn't fit them. It fits a Daniel Bryan type. Let the smaller guys get the sympathy and the muscled up beasts be muscled up fucking beasts.

Everybody works the same. It's a massive, massive problem, and it's not exclusive to the WWE. I had to switch off the one EVOLVE show I built because all the guys were doing indy strong style. Everyone in the WWE does it. I don't understand why wrestlers think they will stand out doing the same shit as everyone else. I actually just don't get it at all.

They're obsessed with heat. I think Alvarez harps on it a lot. Steve Austin while having to "overcome odds" always delivered comeuppance. Very rarely did he just flat out get his ass kicked without there being severe repercussions on the same show.

I heard Alvarez say that the other day, so I think you're right -- except they are scared of genuine heat. It's this faux-heat where it's really just the antagonist getting their way, or the babyface failing. It's often because the babyface is stupid, falls for obvious shit, doesn't wear a cup, is distracted by shiny things and presents themselves, etc. They want guys to constantly lose in their hometowns, and this is supposed to get heat, but it's that "I'm a fictional character in a fictional show and I am actually friends with Hometown Wrestler" heat that doesn't go anywhere or mean anything.

I wish they were obsessed with heat, to the point that they let heels be heels and actually build relationships with audiences and feuds with faces that get people excited to see them get their ass kicked, instead of them just getting a turn to win with a school boy and a handful of tights this week.

Austin was an ass kicker tho. Getting comeuppance and refusing to stay down fit his character.

I wonder if Roman still has that physique at this point. He's older now, and maybe they cover him up for a reason.

Reigns should be an ass-kicker. He shouldn't be selling for dudes like Sami Zayn and acting like everyone he gets in the ring with is an obstacle, because they can simply beat him up and put him in a chinlock for five minutes. Do they not realize how dumb this makes babyfaces look? That they go out there when they are supposed to fight, but because they're fixed on this certain match structure, it is necessitated that they simply aren't very good at the start of every match? Imagine how much more interesting everything gets if Reigns takes some initiative over how he works, and decides "Hang on, I'm a bad-ass and I outweigh you by 50lbs, so instead of you putting me in a headlock, I am going to tackle you and toss you right out of the ring," and every match attempted to tell its own story.

I've heard Court Bauer, who is allegedly very close with the Samoans, suggest that Reigns does cover up for a reason. He is probably genetically predisposed to being a big boy. That being said, this is the guy that you've chosen to invest 10 years in and you knew that going in. I don't understand why you wouldn't a) factor that in; b) give a fuck. Samoa Joe doesn't wrestle in a shirt, and he looks 10x cooler than Roman Reigns, because he does not give such a self-conscious fuck. He's supposed to be tough, not look like a Ralph Lauren model. If he's big -- good. If he looks like a Greek god? That's even better. It's much better than him playing fake army man by himself.

Also coming from Bauer though are stories about how hard Jim Barnett had to work to get Vince to take a shirt off Cena too. Barnett thought it was insane when they were doing the rapper thing that they were getting him to cover up the shape he was in. Grabbing Vince and pointing out that people wanting to fuck his top star is good thing is apparently something that needs to happen.