Val Venis, Hardcore Holly, Billy Gunn [Archive]

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Favre4Ever

08-05-2004, 03:29 AM

Three underrated, excellent superstars. While perhaps past their prime(whatever credit you give that), these guys are in great shape and still putting on great matches. I can understand why they haven't made it higher: they all fall a little bit short in the charisma department. But they don't need to be shelved to Velocity and Heat for eternity, constantly jobbing to the "up and come-ers".

My solution was to throw them into the tag team division. They could definitly spice it up, right?

Well, the WWE did that, and indeed, the team of Hardcore and Gunn put on great showings. So what do they do with them? Split them back up. Great idea.

What should the WWE do with these guys?

Dave Youell

08-05-2004, 03:49 AM

Right, Billy Gunn is not a great worker, he's got a good body body on him, but just flips about like a fish out of water all the time with ridiculous over the top 'Flair' like comedy bumps.

Botch core Holly is just terrible, again a good body and decent drop kick, but that's about it, there's nothing else to him, he's only golden moments were in the hardcore Division and you can hardly call that stuff wrestling.

Venis or Morely or Venis whichever you prefer, I hate it when workers go back to old gimmicks (unless your Foley, that's the one exception to the rule) He's mic work is decent but his style hasn't changed for 6 years now.

Now if all these guys are such great talents name one match these guys have had that was good and would stand out in peoples mind?

Favre4Ever

08-05-2004, 03:53 AM

Dave Youell

08-05-2004, 04:01 AM

Venis vs. Shamrock vs. Road Dogg vs. Goldust(w 15)

Hardcore Holly vs. Al Snow(St.Valentines Day Massacre)

Hardcore Holly/Billy Gunn vs. Rico/Hass(Uh....Yeah.)

Val Venis/Hardcore Holly vs. The Dudleyz

I'd throw out some more but i'm tired. Anyhow, I agree with you about the gimmicks, and I already talked about their charisma, but these guys are good wrestlers. They've gotta find something for these guys. And I still say that their rebirths lie in the tag team division.
So out of all the exmples you've given, none were a one on one wrestling matches? They have either needed to rely on gimmick hardcore matches, or others in the match to make it great.

I'm talking one on one affairs here, none of them can really cut the mustard on there own.

Just throwing people in the tag teams division for the hell of it isn't a good way to go, I mean Billy has been tag champ about 60 times now and everytime they seem to have run out of ideas for him, they just put him in the Tag Division, So just putting him back in there aint gonna help, he's past it and was never really a good worker in the first place, just a decent look.

HeartBreakMan2k

08-05-2004, 04:04 AM

Of those you listed, Venis is the only one I actually enjoy.

Boondock Saint

08-05-2004, 04:11 AM

Venis I agree.

If this was 4 years ago, then I'd agree with Gunn. But meh.

Hardcore, no.

Funky Fly

08-05-2004, 04:49 AM

I can't possibly take this seriously if you think Bobcore is underrated.

Mr. Nerfect

08-05-2004, 04:53 AM

Get ready for a meaningless rant on my part.

I hate it when people call wrestlers useless or terrible. They're hired for a reason, and they stay hired for one. When one of us runs a successful wrestling organisation that even gets ankle high to the WWE, then you'd have a bit more credibility to your opinion, until then the guys under contarct aren't terrible, useless or deserving of contract termination.

Billy Gunn is a decent worker. The crowd LOVES this guy, and want to love him. Probably a better athlete than 80% of America. He's no Chris Benoit, but when it comes to who has the most atheletic look, and who would be believeable in the ring, Gunn beats a lot of guys. He's one of the best tag guys in the wrestling world, and he didn't rely on partners or opponents to do it. I'd compare this guy to The Rock in terms of wrestling ability, He knows what to do, how to do it, and he gives it his all. He gets an A for effort. I was very happy when he got his chance to shine in the 8-Man Elimination US Title Match on SmackDown!.

Hardcore Holly is more believeable than most. His chops have force behind them, he brawls like the best of them, and has decent ring knowledge. If he was given a lesson on ring psychology, this guy could be really entertaining. The fans love this guy.

Val Venis is possibly one of the best technically sound guys in the ring. He's got good psychology and can work the crowd. The people want to get into the Val Venis character, but it seems the WWe are trying to let Venis push himself. Give him some decent exposure and promos. Maybe have him feud with Evolution? Maybe even join it? Venis is a great ring technician and I'd hate to see it go to waste.

Funky Fly

08-05-2004, 05:03 AM

You forgot to mention Bobcore's injury prone track record and chronic bad attitude.

The One

08-05-2004, 05:07 AM

:love: I don't remember when/if this has ever happened before. Years ago it was me vs. The World on Billy Gunn's rock-a-tude! I am not kidding when I say I think given the right push and the right series of events, Billy Gunn could be World Champion. Not only a World Champion, but a credible and enjoyable one. Often I wonder how much better the world would have been had Billy Gunn gotten into the stock market (looks at Bradshaw with shame).

Funky Fly

08-05-2004, 05:20 AM

They missed the boat on Gunn as a champ. They should have pushed him after his KOTR win.

The One

08-05-2004, 05:31 AM

They missed the boat on Gunn as a champ. They should have pushed him after his KOTR win.

Let me just jump right in here before sopme ney-sayer claims he dropped the ball...blah blah blah. Billy was mega over at the time (and to be honest it STILL over today despite terrible bookings for 2 years). He was going strong and then...DX reformed. Well great let's take this guy, who was a credible threat to The Rock, and even challenged Triple H for the World Title weeks earlier, and throw him and the rest of DX back together...wouldn't be so bad if the new DX wasn't so watered down and basically there to play Triple H's bitches. Billy didn't drop the ball, the WWF did. Then of course his injury took him out for 9 months. He comes back to a HUGE ovation, so they let him and Guerrero fued over the IC Title...good. Billy won the title and the crowd was really into it...and then they had him drop the title 2 weeks later. Does he fallow up with his fued with either Guerrero or Benoit? No. They just kind of forget about him until the Royal Rumble. Yea! Billy is in the final four...typically a place reserved for 4 guys who are about to get some good air time in the near future...ergh! Billy is out, makes a few random jobs on SmackDown until no Way Out, wins the Hardcore Title for 18 seconds...dosn't make a WrestleMania appearance...and isn't really seen again until he a Chuck show up. Suddenly Billy and Chuck are MEGA over (suprising? No. The gimmick worked and if you look at Billy's track record he tends to get over doing anything) they become only the 5th wrestler to ever appear on the Today Show, then WWE screws everything up AGAIN...do they play out some more Abigious angles? No, we're WWE and we like to take thre implied and ruin it by just flat out saying it...and then backing down. What happens? Chuck goes to FBI and Billy AGAIN is dropped. If you look at the past few years, predominatly, it isn't Billy's fault he isn't huge right now. He is charismatic to boot. Listen, be it on Velocity, SmackDown, or House Shows, he is 9:10 for being one of the top cheered guys. People love him and why WWE dosn't capitolize on this is beyond me...VINCE! HE IS 6'5"...THAT'S BIG ENOUGH! GIVE HIM A PUSH! :mad:

Mr. Nerfect

08-05-2004, 05:49 AM

You forgot to mention Bobcore's injury prone track record and chronic bad attitude.

That may be true, but what about Angle? Lately he's been getting injured walking more than Kevin Nash. That doesn't make him any less of a talented wrestler.

Since when do we know anything about Hardcore's attitude. Sure we hear the rumours, but he's kept his job, he's obviously happy wrestling. I think Holly may be a bit frustrated being an afterthought of the WWE, but I think everything's been blown out of proportion.

Mr. Nerfect

08-05-2004, 05:58 AM

Let me just jump right in here before sopme ney-sayer claims he dropped the ball...blah blah blah. Billy was mega over at the time (and to be honest it STILL over today despite terrible bookings for 2 years). He was going strong and then...DX reformed. Well great let's take this guy, who was a credible threat to The Rock, and even challenged Triple H for the World Title weeks earlier, and throw him and the rest of DX back together...wouldn't be so bad if the new DX wasn't so watered down and basically there to play Triple H's bitches. Billy didn't drop the ball, the WWF did. Then of course his injury took him out for 9 months. He comes back to a HUGE ovation, so they let him and Guerrero fued over the IC Title...good. Billy won the title and the crowd was really into it...and then they had him drop the title 2 weeks later. Does he fallow up with his fued with either Guerrero or Benoit? No. They just kind of forget about him until the Royal Rumble. Yea! Billy is in the final four...typically a place reserved for 4 guys who are about to get some good air time in the near future...ergh! Billy is out, makes a few random jobs on SmackDown until no Way Out, wins the Hardcore Title for 18 seconds...dosn't make a WrestleMania appearance...and isn't really seen again until he a Chuck show up. Suddenly Billy and Chuck are MEGA over (suprising? No. The gimmick worked and if you look at Billy's track record he tends to get over doing anything) they become only the 5th wrestler to ever appear on the Today Show, then WWE screws everything up AGAIN...do they play out some more Abigious angles? No, we're WWE and we like to take thre implied and ruin it by just flat out saying it...and then backing down. What happens? Chuck goes to FBI and Billy AGAIN is dropped. If you look at the past few years, predominatly, it isn't Billy's fault he isn't huge right now. He is charismatic to boot. Listen, be it on Velocity, SmackDown, or House Shows, he is 9:10 for being one of the top cheered guys. People love him and why WWE dosn't capitolize on this is beyond me...VINCE! HE IS 6'5"...THAT'S BIG ENOUGH! GIVE HIM A PUSH! :mad:

I agree with you and Funky here. :love:

When Gunn ran to the ring during the 2001 Royal Rumble he was greeted by a huge ovation. When people see this guy, I really think they're reminded of The Rock. If BG got pushed to the moon he could have been a bit of a mixture between The Rock and Stone Cold. I would have marked out like a little biatch if during the 8-Man Tag everyone jumped down off the apron when Billy got in. I also think he needs to lose the Mr. Ass gimmick. Sure it's great, but I prefered "The One" gimmick. I'd like to see Billy become a tough-ass Texan with a good sense of humour, but turns "Stone Cold" in the ring. They shouldn't be afraid to give him some good wins, because the crowd will accept him. Push him as the "King of the Ring" Billy Gunn that was legit in the ring and in the people's eyes. I'd love to see a Cena/Gunn alliance leading into a feud between Gunn and Angle.

Funky Fly

08-05-2004, 06:07 AM

That may be true, but what about Angle? Lately he's been getting injured walking more than Kevin Nash. That doesn't make him any less of a talented wrestler.

Since when do we know anything about Hardcore's attitude. Sure we hear the rumours, but he's kept his job, he's obviously happy wrestling. I think Holly may be a bit frustrated being an afterthought of the WWE, but I think everything's been blown out of proportion.
I saw him beat the fuck out of a guy smaller than him on tv "just because he needed to learn respect". :|

Lara Emily

08-05-2004, 06:31 AM

Angle got neck injuries in the ring taking high risk offence. He didn't get hurt walking like Nash did :|

Goldbird

08-05-2004, 08:40 AM

HankScorpio

08-05-2004, 08:45 AM

There is nothing wrong with Val Venis. He ALWAYS puts on a good match and is entertaining.

The other two can go die in a ditch for all I care.

Sephiroth

08-05-2004, 08:49 AM

I can't possibly take this seriously if you think Bobcore is underrated.

08-05-2004, 12:02 PM

Venis is the only one of them I can stand. Hate Baldcore and only found Gunn entertaining when he was with Road Dogg.

Kane Knight

08-05-2004, 12:14 PM

Angle got neck injuries in the ring taking high risk offence. He didn't get hurt walking like Nash did :|

Kane Knight

08-05-2004, 12:22 PM

I'm actually convinced that you could walk a monkey out with a pair of "Mr. ASS" trunks and get the same pop.

when you have to rely on people who remember a gimmick carried by another person, you're not that over. Billy Gunn is really the "other guy from WAM!"

Bobcore is crap in the ring, and can give a heel a face push simply by being in ring. H's a walking injury fest, has very little in the lines of charisma, and really blows all around.

Veniss is capable of being entertaining. Going back to the "Big Vaboski" was a bad idea, especially given that he's kind of half assed from the original gimmick. Out of the three, he's the best in ring performer, and he's GOT to have the most charisma (Considering one of the other two would lose to a lawyer in a popularity contest).

He's not GREAT, mind. He definitely deserves more than jobs on Heat.

Mr. JL

08-05-2004, 12:43 PM

Billy Gunn had a great look and had BIG pops. he was getting his rub from DX. He may have been able to be in the main events for a short term after he won the KOTR. A feud with HHH would have been great back then (because we all know HHH was actually deserving of his status). Bottom line... he could have been a main eventer but got injured and when he returned... he just disappointed fans.

He got "Rikishi'ed" ... Rikishi was over when he 'did it for the Rock' but after he got injured he never found it again. I believe Edge will end up in this same category.

Hardcore Holly isn't worth a paragraph to sum up his lack of wrestling ability and charisma.

Val Venis was killed off by the WWF(E) creatively. Ever since his feud with Kaientai :nono: He could also use some different flashy moves that would set him apart and would make the fans care about him. Maybe a front flip over the top rope and to the floor... just something. He has too much of a basic attack so it doesn't appeal to the casual fan. I personally like his style but I can see a casual fan not being too impressed by him.

Kane Knight

08-05-2004, 01:46 PM

I think he should appeal to the casual fan...

Maybe he could start rapping before matches.

Corkscrewed

08-05-2004, 02:19 PM

Hardcore sucks.

Billy is okay (not terrible, no John Cena either).

Val is very underrated.

Mr. Nerfect

08-05-2004, 06:31 PM

I saw him beat the fuck out of a guy smaller than him on tv "just because he needed to learn respect". :|

Yes he did. That was wrong. Besides, what evidence do you have that it wasn't scripted? Matt Cappotelli is working for the company now.

Mr. Nerfect

08-05-2004, 06:32 PM

Fryza

08-05-2004, 06:56 PM

You forgot to mention Bobcore's injury prone track record and chronic bad attitude.

I like Bob in the ring, actually. It's just kinda a thing, I don't judge them by how they act outside of the ring. Bob isn't bad, he makes good Velocity Uppder-Card material, but if he puts on a good match, I'm going to give him the credit due rather than pay attention to his outside life (JBL is one of them too, but Holly tends to look better in the ring).

Otherwise, Holly needs to be shot in the foot and have some teeth knocked out.

Gunn and Venis I think are solid workers, and okay on the mic. But they're not people I wanna see in the Upper-Midcard or higher range.

Funky Fly

08-05-2004, 07:22 PM

Yes he did. That was wrong. Besides, what evidence do you have that it wasn't scripted? Matt Cappotelli is working for the company now.
I read that Bobcore stiffed him on another occasion at a house show, which may have led to the Chavo Guerrero/Jacqueline cruiserweight title fiasco.

Funky Fly

08-05-2004, 07:25 PM

I like Bob in the ring, actually. It's just kinda a thing, I don't judge them by how they act outside of the ring. Bob isn't bad, he makes good Velocity Uppder-Card material, but if he puts on a good match, I'm going to give him the credit due rather than pay attention to his outside life (JBL is one of them too, but Holly tends to look better in the ring).

Otherwise, Holly needs to be shot in the foot and have some teeth knocked out.

Gunn and Venis I think are solid workers, and okay on the mic. But they're not people I wanna see in the Upper-Midcard or higher range.
I find Bobcore to be kinda average at best (same with JBL) as far as ring work. That's at best. Usually, they suck ass. If either puts on a good match, I'll give them the credit where it's due, but I still despise them for their dickery.

Aussie Skier

08-06-2004, 02:12 AM

I;ve never been a fan of illy Gunnn. Apparently he makes a tonne of mistakes in the ring and is careless (I think he once nearly killed Chris Benoit (dont know how tho.))

Hardcore Holly is ok. But i dunno...he just doesnt have that IT factor.

Val Venis is just so stale...its the same every time I see him.

The One

08-06-2004, 02:24 AM

I;ve never been a fan of illy Gunnn. Apparently he makes a tonne of mistakes in the ring and is careless (I think he once nearly killed Chris Benoit (dont know how tho.))

TOTAL overreaction by Benoit marks...it was RAW after Armageddon. Billy Gunn and Benoit faced off against each other and Gunn did a gorilla press and when Benoit was coming down, Billy missed on grabbing Benoit's head...near mistake, but still not near death. Let us not forget the EXACT SAME MOVE happened with Benoit and Sabu years earlier, only Benoit was on the giving end...and even Internet Mark's God of in ring skill Owen Hart nearly ended Steve Austin's career...Droz was paralized by D'Lo...the injuries go on and on. Billy's in ring record is VERY good, and all things considered, aside from that one slip up with Benoit, he has never endangered others. This business is a risky one, if we are to condem people for botched moves, we would have only Brooklyn Brawler and Funaki left in the ring.

Kane Knight

08-06-2004, 02:25 AM

I've got the solution:

Tell Brock that Holly is into men and posts on the internet.

Mr. JL

08-06-2004, 02:27 AM

LETS GO HOLLY!!!
clap
clap
LETS GO HOLLY!!!
clap
clap
LETS GO HOLLY!!!

Heyman

08-06-2004, 05:08 AM

Here is what I'd do:

Val Venis: Get rid of the "Val Venis" gimmick, and just call him self Sean Morely. Make him cut a promo on how he just wants to be "himself" from now on. His new moto could be 'the real thing' or something. WWE magazines can write a 'kayfabe' article on him and how he's found his true self. Morley is a good enough wrestler to get over on his own ability. Furthermore - the guy has a respectable degree of charisma and mic skills. Morely, if re-built, could be a very formidable IC title contender.

Hardcore Holly: Turn him heel. Holly is a natural jerk in real life, so why not play a character that comes naturally for him. Holly is not a below average wrestler (i.e. too stiff, sloppy, etc.), but the guy is capable of generating pretty good heat.

Since Hardcore Holly has a 'hardcore' style, perhaps a feud with Rob Van Dam could be worthwhile to see.

Billy Gunn: First off - I DON"T think that Billy Gunn would've been a good main-eventer.....contrary to what some IMBECILES have stated in this thread. Main-eventers need to have either OVERWHELMING charisma, or OVERWHELMING talent (or for some wrestlers, they have both). Gunn unfortunately, did not "stand out" with any of these qualities. His wrestling ability is AVERAGE at best (and I'm being generous on this), while his charisma is "good" (but not "great").

As far as Billy Gunn goes, I'd keep him aligned with Hardcore Holly. HOWEVER - I'd push both men as HEELS. Both men (like they do in real life), can b</>itch about how they are being "misused" as a part of their gimmick. I wouldn't mind seeing both men become tag team champs.

Lara Emily

08-06-2004, 06:45 AM

TOTAL overreaction by Benoit marks...it was RAW after Armageddon. Billy Gunn and Benoit faced off against each other and Gunn did a gorilla press and when Benoit was coming down, Billy missed on grabbing Benoit's head...near mistake, but still not near death. Let us not forget the EXACT SAME MOVE happened with Benoit and Sabu years earlier, only Benoit was on the giving end...and even Internet Mark's God of in ring skill Owen Hart nearly ended Steve Austin's career...Droz was paralized by D'Lo...the injuries go on and on. Billy's in ring record is VERY good, and all things considered, aside from that one slip up with Benoit, he has never endangered others. This business is a risky one, if we are to condem people for botched moves, we would have only Brooklyn Brawler and Funaki left in the ring.
The Sabu/Benoit incident was a back body drop and it was Sabu who messed up the landing notBenoit who messed up the move.