If you were Laker management, who would you have kept?

[YOUR Hero]

Kobe or Shaq?

Why.

[Supreme Olajuwon]

Kobe because he's not even 26 yet

[Jesus Shuttlesworth]

Shaq because he will be the most dominate player for the next 2 or 3 years.

Kobe = T-Mac without Shaq

[The Miz]

Yeah what stima said. Kobe is the same player as Carter & McGrady without Shaq but Shaq could be on a team of high schoolers and the team could still put up a fight.

[Jesus Shuttlesworth]

Even though I know Kobe will be around for longer, I would rather give it a shot for the next 2 years at a title, whereas Kobe will just be "another" Superstar who will probably never win another championship.

[DaveWadding]

Shaq. A truly dominant Center like Shaq only comes along once in a lifetime (see: Alcindor, Lew, Chamberlain, Wilt). A star Shooting Guard comes once every 3 years or so(if that!).

[AlphaBean]

Word. You can shut Kobe down. Can't shut Shaq down.

I would have held out for a better trade, though.

I mean, getting any combination of Vlade, Peja, Christie, Miller, Webber or something like that, would have been pretty awesome.

[Ogen]

I know nothing bout the NBA but Shaq cause he calls his swimming pool Shaqapolka and that is :cool:

[VonErich Lives]

Kobe, he's younger and a better all around player.

You can win w/ an average center or rotation, most teams do.

Shaq is big, can dunk... he's still not a solid free throw shooter or from anywhere else.

What made the centers of before great (Jabbar, Chamberlin, Russel) they could shoot and play defense and run the court. They were complete players, people didn't constantly put them at the foul line, because they knew they'd hit the shots.

Maybe over the next 5-10 years Shaq game will change and he will be a complete player, on the other hand... his size/weight/age, I see about 5 more years and he calls it quits.

[The Miz]

Wow. The highest Wilt ever shot from the line was 61%. He shot under 50% a few years. Didnt stop him from averaging 50 points a game. Russell was the same way. What made him great was that he was a great team leader and rebounder and could hit a big shot (layup or dunk) when the Celtics needed it. Kareem was a better shooter than both Wilt & Bill but the fact that you could say any of them "could shoot" is pretty hilarious.

Shaq has proven that Hac-a-Shaq doesnt work because if you put him on the line in the 4th with the game on the line he always delivers. He's a shit FT shooter but he makes them when he counts.

Kobe without Shaq & Phil is just McGrady/Carter. Hell take 40 shots a night to score 40 points, throw a bunch of dunks and not make anyone on the team better. Shaq is much more valuavle than Kobe.

[Gertner]

Kobe, because Shaq won't be around in another 3 years.

[ct2k]

Shaq. As people have said a dominant centre is harder to come by than a good shooting guard. Shaq would just've been more consistent for them, you can triple team that guy but he can still contribute to the game, if you do the same to Kobe and he's not hitting his jumpers there's not a huge amount more he's gonna do, he's hardly a playmaker or someone who's gonna grab you 15 defensive bounds

[The Outlaw]

What the majority of people have already said. :cool:

[BCWWF]

From a TPWW posters perspective Shaq obviously, but reasonably from a GM's perspective you would be a complete idiot not to keep Kobe. He is the most marketable player on their team and he is 25 years old.

The negative media has given people the impression that Kobe isn't good. You are rediculous if you compare Kobe to T-Mac or Vince. Kobe is a better player, better shooter, and proven winner. The front office in LA fucked up by letting Shaq demand a trade, because neither of them will be the same without each other, but Kobe alone is more effective than Shaq alone.

[The Outlaw]

What

Shaq (IMO) will do just as good, if not better, with Wade and company.

Kobe, with Lamar Odom and etc., will not.

[BCWWF]

The Heat will probably be third seed, which doesn't say too much when you're in the East, but now the media has tricked everybody into thinking the Lakers are awful, I guarantee you that they get at least the five seed in the West and win a championship before the Heat.

[DaveWadding]

The front office in LA fucked up by letting Shaq demand a trade, because neither of them will be the same without each other

You know that Shaq has played for other team besides the Lakers, and without Kobe right?

Shaq plays the same way he played 10 years ago.

[The Outlaw]

Were you an NBA fan when Shaq broke into the league?

He made Penny Hardaway a Kobe pretty much.

[BCWWF]

He never won without Kobe, and Kobe never won without Shaq, there are no guarantees that either of them win independently. Even with Shaq the Heat won't be able to beat the Pistons or the Pacers and if they did they would have no shot against the Spurs or Wolves. If Shaq was five years younger the Heat would be really good in a few years, but by the time Wade is on a level to compete for a championship Shaq will either be retired or playing a David Robinson role. Kobe isn't going to win a championship in the next three of four years by himself either, but he has over ten years left, giving him a huge advantage.

Like I said before, they didn't have to give up Shaq, but they made bad decisions and publicly said things they shouldn't have, and Shaq went over the edge. The Lakers owner is the one to blame that his franchise is in a huge rut now and that Miami's in rejuvenated, but in the situation where you choose one of the other you obviously take the younger guy who draws comparisons to Michael Jordan and who, according to Shaq himself, has the potential to be the best basketball player ever.

[The Outlaw]

Kobe hasn't played without Shaq, he wont know whats up when he has to shoot 50 times a game and still loses by 20 points.


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208-120 doesn't look too bad of a record for Shaq without Kobe, does it? Especially considering 92-93 was his rookie year and the Magic was the #1 turnaround team in the league that year. Shaq makes people stars, ask Penny. He makes his teamates better, ask Nick Anderson or Robert Horry or anyone that has played with him.

Can't say the same for Kobe.

[BCWWF]

Championships, its all about the championships.

I just think that Kobe is more likely to win another one than Shaq, but that could be in 10 years.

[VonErich Lives]

Wow. The highest Wilt ever shot from the line was 61%. He shot under 50% a few years. Didnt stop him from averaging 50 points a game. Russell was the same way. What made him great was that he was a great team leader and rebounder and could hit a big shot (layup or dunk) when the Celtics needed it. Kareem was a better shooter than both Wilt & Bill but the fact that you could say any of them "could shoot" is pretty hilarious.

Shaq has proven that Hac-a-Shaq doesnt work because if you put him on the line in the 4th with the game on the line he always delivers. He's a shit FT shooter but he makes them when he counts.

Kobe without Shaq & Phil is just McGrady/Carter. Hell take 40 shots a night to score 40 points, throw a bunch of dunks and not make anyone on the team better. Shaq is much more valuavle than Kobe.

I don;t think we can say it's "proven shaq hits in the clutch" he hadn't had to do it enough.

That being said, you're right about shooting %, what made Wilt and Rusell great were rebounds, blocks, defense and assists...

Block Shots are a lost art in the modern NBA, Russell or Wilt would block a ball, control it and start a fast break. Today, Shaq etc... slap it into the cheap seats... might look nice for ESPN and get some "ooooooooh" or "in your face" chants... but the other team gets the ball right back.

It's amazing the assists that those guys used to put up as centers.

[Kid Robb]

Shaq - better chance of immidiate championship success.

Also the whole Kobe/trial/jail thing... might be hard for him to beat his man off the dribble in handcuffs.

[Rob]

Shaq. Best player they had. Simple as that.

[ct2k]

Good point on the blocks VEL. Guys get more kick out of slapping the ball as far as possible that getting those extra few baskets. Even Dikempe was guilty of that, the old finger wag and all, but he blocked so many i don't think it mattered so much:p

[AlphaBean]

KG has the tendency to catch shots in mid-air. I guess that's the same as a huge swat, if not better than. :dunno: Of course, he doesn't have the big stats, since he's in the middle of a zone. He doesn't get good positioning, unless he's slamming a layup against the backboard and coming down with it. :D

Anyway, BCWWF is being a shithead in this thread.

Kobe was shut down against the Pistons. Shaq wasn't. T-Mac, Vince, they never had a Shaq. Now T-Mac has Yao... he will be better, and play better than Shaq this year. If Yao continues his development, then T-Mac will probably set records, and the Rockets will be a top team in the West. You don't need anything besides a scorer and a big man to succeed, if your scorer and big man are good enough to complement each other.

But Shaq will always make other players better, and will always be a matchup problem.

The Lakers would have won the championship if Kobe wasn't a ball hog. If he could move the ball around, and given someone else a look at the damn basket, they wouldn't have been swept in 5 games like they were.

[BCWWF]

What you say is true Bean, except that a team with Shaq and say Caron Butler this year wouldn't have won shit, and you know that. Kobe is not the average shooting guard, he may not be able to win on his own, but now the Lakers have ten more years to get another good big man with him instead of two more years to get Shaq another shooter. The age is really the only factor that matters in this.

[VonErich Lives]

If Yao continues his development,

"Yo"

"Yao"

"Yo!"

"Yao!"

Sorry, commercial flash back.

I think Yao's a free agent after next season... that could be an interesting sweepstakes... and if things go according to plan, the Celts look to have a ton of cap money to spend...

"Yo"

"Yo-Gi"

[BCWWF]

I'm not going to give Houston any credit until I see them. They could potentially be three seed in the West, at the same time they could be fighting the Lakers for seven or eight. A lot is different in the West this year though, its all really hard to say.

[AlphaBean]

What you say is true Bean, except that a team with Shaq and say Caron Butler this year wouldn't have won shit, and you know that. Kobe is not the average shooting guard, he may not be able to win on his own, but now the Lakers have ten more years to get another good big man with him instead of two more years to get Shaq another shooter. The age is really the only factor that matters in this.
"and you know that."

Nah...

See, the NBA has a million players who can stand around and shoot. They can hit an open shot easily. But they can't create their own shot.

All Shaq needs is someone to give him the ball. If you can cut off the ball from Shaq, you can stop Shaq. But if he gets the ball, you will throw three bodies at him, and two players will be wide-open for a J. That's how Rick Fox, Derek Fisher, Kobe, and all that, were overrated, just being on a team with Shaq. If I wasn't being defended, I'd be okay at basketball, I think. :yes:

[BCWWF]

I understand that, but you are clearly underrating Kobe. Even Shaq admitted that he has MJ like potential if he take ahold of it, he has over ten more years to get another big man, Shaq will never have someone as good as Kobe in his declining few years.

[AlphaBean]

Shaq said htat about his teammate. Now he says bad things. He's hardly objective. Hell, I would never take Shaq's opinion to mean anything ever. I love him more than anyone else as far as when he opens his mouth... but saying he has Jordan potential?

1) With an ego like Kobe's, that might make him play harder, and give the Lakers a chance to succeed.

2) On the other hand, since Kobe and everyone else in the WORLD grew up idolizing Jordan, the comparison might cripple Kobe's development. Having the highest expectations in the world put on you by everyone is not a healthy thing.

Ask Harold Minor, or Vince Carter.

[BCWWF]

I just finished reading Dick Vitales autobiography and he said on numerous occasions that he thinks Kobe could be as good as Jordan, people say things like that all the time.

I'm not denying that Shaq was probably more important in the three playoff wins, but I don't think you could subsitute anyone for Kobe and have the same success. I don't think Shaq and T-Mac could have done it, Shaq and Vince, Shaq and AI. Everybody has just started shitting on Kobe like he never did anything now that this whole Shaq thing came up, but in reality he is easilly a better player than > Vince, AI, Marbury, T-Mac, any of those guys. He has gotton MVP consideration in each of the past few years.

I predict that neither of them win a championship in the next five years, Shaq can make Dwayne Wade better, but he is still not Kobe Bryant. Kobe has even less on his team, but he has I'll say 13 more years to get another good big man.

Just pertaining to the question of the thread, say:
Shaq declining for three years
Kobe in his prime until 2015

The obvious response is Kobe. I am answering this from the perspective if I was the Lakers GM, not on which player I like better. Its an obvious answer.

[AlphaBean]

ARGH I want to punch you.

OF COURSE Kobe was better than those other players, because those players DIDN'T HAVE SHAQ.

Shaq commanded a triple team, and when he got triple-teamed, Kobe was either open or single-covered. T-Mac gets doubled.

Jordan never had enough help that he was ever single-covered. He created his own shot.

In the finals, Kobe got doubled, and what happened? HE SUCKED.

It's that simple. Shaq made the finals without Kobe, and before Kobe was in his prime. Shaq makes other players better, not vice-versa. Jordan was a Shaq player, not a Kobe player.

This is not a question of "chicken or egg," because it's obvious that Shaq can dominate a game no matter who he's going against, no matter how many bodies you throw at him. Kobe can be shut down with two defenders. Shaq cannot. What's so hard to understand about that? :foc:

We will never know if Kobe is better than T-Mac, because T-Mac was still a teenager when he left Toronto, and Orlando has never had a good team to surround him with.

Yes, Kobe has the potential to be a Jordanesque player. But he never will. Because Kobe doesn't have the will and the drive. He is a prima donna whiner, and a ball hog without Jordan's talent or clutch. Also, he is a rapist. He spits on the legacy of Michael Jordan every time his name is mentioned in the same breath.

I think Kobe had the chance to become a Jordan player, but he was put on a team with a player better than him, which bred unbelievable jealousy and bitterness, which was not dealt with, it was swept under the rug and ignored for 7 years by Phil Jackson. The Zen Master taught Kobe how to deal with his rage (by sodomizing young girls), so that he could play better basketball. He was not taught how to make the most of his abilities, and he was not taught how to have the will to win.

He will neverrrrrrrrrr be Jordan.

[AlphaBean]

Also, the Pistons had trouble against the Nets because the Nets had a good point guard.

They had trouble against the Lakers when Shaq had the ball.

So they solved this, by attacking the point guard (Kobe was usually controlling the ball), so that he would force up shots and not get the ball to Shaq (who was dominating the Pistons on both ends).

So, put the ball in a capable PG's hands, i.e. Dwayne Wade, and put Shaq with a purpose down low, then Shaq will get the ball, because that's the game plan. Nobody is begging to take all the shots like Kobe in Miami.

So Shaq will have the ball. Put 3 guys on him, that = open jumpers for everyone.

In theory, it works. The only way I eat my words is if none of the Heat are good enough to hit a wide-open jumper. :nono: Or, if Shaq takes the money and sits on his fat ass, which I highly doubt.

[BCWWF]

You're making it sound like Kobe is Doug Christie or something. It doesn't take huge explanations, Kobe is the top player in the world in his position and he is 25 years old, Shaq is one of the best players ever, but he is declining now. Also, just some details, if they had kept Shaq and let Kobe walk, the Lakers would have absolutely no one else on their team. There were no free agents out there who are capable of the job and they had hardly anything to offer in trades. Just to point something out, you said yourself that when the Pistons figured out how to shut Kobe down, the Lakers lost. Shaq needed Kobe just about as much as Kobe needed Shaq. But its pointless to discuss that, because what it all comes down to is that Kobe has 10 years left while Shaq has three, and thats why I choose Kobe.

[BCWWF]

Bean, lets just agree to disagree on that, but also agree to agree that the Wolves are gonna be hot as ever next winter, Gugilyugilyata is back baby!

[DaveWadding]

Yes, Kobe has the potential to be a Jordanesque player. But he never will. Because Kobe doesn't have the will and the drive. He is a prima donna whiner, and a ball hog without Jordan's talent or clutch. Also, he is a rapist. He spits on the legacy of Michael Jordan every time his name is mentioned in the same breath.



:love: Bean :love:

[BCWWF]

Isn't it kind of weird how the guys who are known as the best ever all seem to be top notch guys too? MJ, Gretzky, Pele

[The Miz]

<font size="2" color="#2d5980" face="trebuchet ms">lol Jordan is a fucking dick, what are you talking about</font>

[YOUR Hero]

I don't see why you feel Shaq is in a decline. You yourself say Kobe has 10-13 more years as a top player, insinuating no decline. Yet ou brush off Shaq as in a decline. You know, it doesn't add up.

I hate basketball, I don't like the NBA attitude, it turns me off. I feel I see ALL players very open minded and because of that, BCWWF, I feel you're logic is wrong.

Time will tell.

[BCWWF]

He hasn't played a full season in like three years now and his averages have been declining in the past few years aswell, he is in his mid thirties now, so its not a shock that he isn't in his prime anymore.

If you look at who Kobe is in LA compared to Shaq and consider how bad their team is going to be in the next three years regardless of which one they chose, picking the younger and more marketable player is what makes sense. Shaq will win more in Miami then he would have in LA this year because LA is "rebuilding" now.

[YOUR Hero]

Kobe more marketable? He's up on rape charges. His marketability is shot. No matter what the outcome of his trial, what sponsor would want him endorsing their product.

[Jesus Shuttlesworth]

Its going to take Kobe a few years before he is "marketable" again

I think eventually he will though, Look at Jason Kidd, he beats his life and I saw him on a sneaker commerical the other day.

Ray Lewis is on the cover of Madden after getting accused of Murder, I mean he was innocent but that still had an effect on how marketable he was.

Kobe will be marketable again, whereas Shaq really isnt. I don't think anybody is ever really going to buy some Starter Brand Shaq sneakers.

But I am not really sure why that matters, I would still rather have Shaq. T-Mac is marketable too, and basically thats the point here. Kobe = T-Mac without Shaq

[The Miz]

<font size="2" color="#2d5980" face="trebuchet ms">Kidd & Lewis charges didn't garner nearly as much media attention, most people who don't follow sports even know about them where as everyone knows about Kobe.</font>

[DaveWadding]

on an unrelated note, Kidd's wife is hot.

[Jesus Shuttlesworth]

<font size="2" color="#2d5980" face="trebuchet ms">Kidd & Lewis charges didn't garner nearly as much media attention, most people who don't follow sports even know about them where as everyone knows about Kobe.</font>
Thats true, Kidds really didnt recieve much for some reason. Even though he has been the only one proven guilty so far :-\

Lewis had a little bit of attention, but not nearly as much as Kobe's.

But Kobe was more marketable then either of them to begin with so thats a factor too.

[AlphaBean]

Ray silenced his critics by taking out his frustration on opposing teams. He destroyed everyone in his path until he lifted the Lombardi trophy over his head, and nobody said a thing. Okay, so an interviewer said something, but the fact is, winning makes people forget these things. Also, sometimes, criminal charges = marketability.

Allen Iverson, Tupac, :love:Romanowski:love:, etc.

Not that I'm saying Kobe is better than Shaq. I think his marketability was as a clean-cut TEEN CHOICE AWARDS type of guy. Now he's a rapist. He will have to play up his new rep if he wants to be marketable again. i.e. a greasy lethario, who cheated on his hot wife with some mediocre blonde psycho via the poop chute. A real ladies' man. :naughty:

As per Shaq "declining," the Lakers have been getting worse, because their role players have been aging, and even when they "upgrade," it's with aging role players. Payton had his worst season ever (imo due to being the 4th point in the triangle), and Malone missed an extended amount of playing time.

And you want to say Shaq hasn't played a full season? Didn't Kobe have shoulder and knee problems which led to his Lakers not winning the championship two seasons ago? And then he had recurring shoulder issues, and LEGAL issues which obviously distracted him and led to him not being 100% this season?

You blame it on Shaq? He was not his usual self, but he could still bring it. He was injured rightfully so, because he is abused in every game. People step on his toes and hit him as hard as they can to make him miss shots. What's Kobe's excuse? He was horny so he buggered a white chick. Great. He showed up way underweight and weak at the beginning of the season. He couldn't keep his head in the game, and ended up being a cancer to his team.

Maybe he will be better next year. But he's not exactly an iron man (missing 6 weeks after a minor collision with another dude, wtf), and he doesn't display the greatest judgment (hello, Shaq's party), so I'd worry more about him missing extended time than Shaq.

I mean, Shaq is already slow. Most injuries won't severely hamper his game. Kobe could get a sprained finger and have to sit out.

Shaq is betta.

[BCWWF]

I will just say it simply, regardless if the Lakers kept Kobe or Shaq, I don't think they will be higher than a six seed for the next couple of years, and by the time the Lakers will have been able to rebuild Shaq will be pretty old, which is why they took Kobe IMO.

So I'm not saying that the Lakers are going to win with Kobe, because they aren't until they get a better forward than Lamar Odom. But if Kobe walked on free agency and Shaq stayed, I don't think the right free agents were out there to build a championship team around Shaq at this point, because the Lakers success has always been about their other players stepping up, Fisher, Horry, this year Rush for a game. By the time the Lakers have the personel to surround their star in, I don't know how well Shaq will be doing.

There are signs that Shaq was slowing down in the past two years, missed games and injuries, but he still came through and dominated as usual through the playoffs. What you have to remember though, is Shaq is 7'4" and weighs like 300 pounds, so as he gets older he going to be jamming toes and getting weak knees real fast.

I personally don't think Shaq will ever win a title in Miami, just because Detroit and Indiana still seem better, and even after that I think the Spurs and Timberwolves will easilly be the top teams in the league. Needless to say though, I think that Shaq will have more success than Kobe, pretty much a lock for a top four seed in the East and a better overall team. If Shaq was still in LA then I would think maybe they would be a seed or two higher in the playoffs, but they still wouldn't have the team it takes to beat the Spurs or Wolves. The only way Shaq would have won in the next three years on the Lakers would be if Kobe agreed to a sign and trade and they got the right players out of them, but obviously Kobe was going to walk if he wasn't the man.

So meh, thats just what I think was going through the Lakers owners minds when they realized that they fucked up and were losing one of the two, and I honestly am surprised that so many people think that I am crazy for thinking that. The only way I would really think differently is if I knew Shaq would have been surrounded by good players in the next few years, so if somebody can show me that then I'll concede. Amen.

[AlphaBean]

Karl Malone took a 20 million dollar pay cut to play with Shaq. He also made the prerequisite to him joining, that the Lakers get Payton. Like Shaq said, he was the real GM of the Lakers.

Notice how Malone wants to go to the Heat now?

Shaq would bring the talent. Shaq is a team player, a dominant player, and he makes his teammates better.

Kobe is a prima donna who wants the ball at all times. Nobody wants to be on his team.

I think Malone's pay cut to play with Shaq is proof that Shaq can build a good team around him.

[BCWWF]

Who was out there that the Lakers could have even signed? And why didn't they just sign with the Heat? I know Horry and Fisher were going to try to sign with the Heat, but they aren't going to win you a championship.

[AlphaBean]

Horry and Fisher are better than no Horry or Fisher.

And like I already said, all Shaq needs are players who can get him the ball, and who can hit an open jumper. Fisher is that guy.

And Horry can hit an open J as well, even a non-open one... at the buzzer... in game 6.

[The Outlaw]

Horry and Fisher are better than no Horry or Fisher.

And like I already said, all Shaq needs are players who can get him the ball, and who can hit an open jumper. Fisher is that guy.

And Horry can hit an open J as well, even a non-open one... at the buzzer... in game 6.
:love: :love: :love: