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View Full Version : Paul Molitor and Denis Eckersley into hall of fame.


YOUR Hero
01-06-2004, 10:27 PM
a DH and a reliever.

Think they deserve it?

What I'm a bit pissed over is Joe Carter and Andre Dawson didn't.

BCWWF
01-06-2004, 10:39 PM
Molitor was an amazing hitter. He ranks in the top ten for both career hits and career doubles. He helped some great teams, if I am not mistaken won a world series or two. Besides that he is just a good guy.

Noone complained when a reliever won the NL Cy Young this year, I dont see how this is any different.

DegenerationY
01-06-2004, 11:36 PM
Honestly, I'm very content with the selections this year.

Eckersley was untouchable in his prime, and Molitor was just an unbelievable hitter.

I don't believe Dawson should get in anytime soon, maybe in the next few years.

Joe Carter sould definitely get in, but not this year.... It's his first year of eligibility, correct?

I can see Carter and maybe Ryne Sandberg next year?

YOUR Hero
01-07-2004, 12:22 AM
Carter can't make it in for at least 15 years now, on the veterans vote. That's the part that pisses me off.

The Outlaw
01-07-2004, 12:35 AM
I still hold a grudge against Carter so it's good with me. ;)

TheJShow
01-07-2004, 12:45 AM
Carter not even getting 5% is the biggest piece of crap.

The Outlaw
01-07-2004, 03:36 PM
Anyone that doesn't think Dawson, Sandberg, and Sutter shouldn't be in should get their head examined.

Loose Cannon
01-07-2004, 03:39 PM
I just wish people would realize how good a player Don Mattingly was and that it's not his fault his career suffered in the 90's because of his terrible back. Please vote him in :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:

Loose Cannon
01-07-2004, 04:22 PM
Carter not even getting 5% is the biggest piece of crap.

Carter is definatelly not a Hall of Famer by any means, but yeah, I think he should of gotten more then 5% of the vote. But if you look at Carter's career #'s, they are not Hall of Fame #'s at all, especially for an outfielder. Carter's career batting average was .259 and he didn't top the 400 HR mark. For that low of an average, your going to have to hit a tun of homers to get into the Hall. His slugging percentage is rather low too. You can view his career #'s here.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/c/cartejo01.shtml

VonErich Lives
01-07-2004, 04:54 PM
I'm a Dawson fan, but you have to say the same as Carter, the Stats don't measure up... I think what we're seeing is a "changing of the gaurd" where it comes to voting, that .300 or 400HR doesn't get you an automatic ticket anymore, especially with the influx of power over the last 10-20 years.

Dawson .279, 438HR .482slg and .323obp....

I'm also a Sandberg fan, but his stats don't come close.... Only thing you can argue is injury shortened carreer and that he was one of the few "power" guys at 2B.

Loose Cannon
01-07-2004, 05:13 PM
I'm a Dawson fan, but you have to say the same as Carter, the Stats don't measure up... I think what we're seeing is a "changing of the gaurd" where it comes to voting, that .300 or 400HR doesn't get you an automatic ticket anymore, especially with the influx of power over the last 10-20 years.

Dawson .279, 438HR .482slg and .323obp....

I'm also a Sandberg fan, but his stats don't come close.... Only thing you can argue is injury shortened carreer and that he was one of the few "power" guys at 2B.

Actually I see Sandberg going into the Hall. His career feilding percentage is the highest out of any 2nd baseman. He has won 9 gold gloves and is a ten time all-star. Also a one time MVP. His batting #'s are average, but he did better then the average of his league of the time he played. And there are a handful of Hall of Fame 2nd baeman who have a lifetime batting average of under .290.

The best Hall of Famer you can compare Sandberg too IMO, is someone who most think is the greatest 2nd baseman of all-time, Joe Morgan. I think Hornsby is the greatest, but that's another story. Anyway, Morgan's and Sandberg's #'s are very similar. Morgan has a .271 lifetime average, 2,517 hits, .427 slugging %, .395 OBP, and 268 homers. Sandberg has a .285 average, 2,386 hits, .452 slugging, .344 OBP and 282 homers.

So you can that Sandberg is very close in numbers to one of the greatest 2nd baseman ever.

VonErich Lives
01-07-2004, 05:52 PM
Actually I see Sandberg going into the Hall. His career feilding percentage is the highest out of any 2nd baseman. He has won 9 gold gloves and is a ten time all-star. Also a 3 time MVP. His batting #'s are average, but he did better then the average of his league of the time he played. And there are a handful of Hall of Fame 2nd baeman who have a lifetime batting average of under .290.

The best Hall of Famer you can compare Sandberg too IMO, is someone who most think is the greatest 2nd baseman of all-time, Joe Morgan. I think Hornsby is the greatest, but that's another story. Anyway, Morgan's and Sandberg's #'s are very similar. Morgan has a .271 lifetime average, 2,517 hits, .427 slugging %, .395 OBP, and 268 homers. Sandberg has a .285 average, 2,386 hits, .452 slugging, .344 OBP and 282 homers.

So you can that Sandberg is very close in numbers to one of the greatest 2nd baseman ever.

Greatest 2b... again, I am a Sandberg fan.. but I gotta go Carew... I'm a little biased since he's my alltime fav player.

Loose Cannon
01-07-2004, 06:23 PM
Greatest 2b... again, I am a Sandberg fan.. but I gotta go Carew... I'm a little biased since he's my alltime fav player.

Carew was good, but I wouldn't rank him in the top 5 2nd baseman of all-time. My list would be:

1) Rogers Hornsby
2) Napolean Lojoie
3) Eddie Collins
4) Joe Morgan
5) Jackie Robinson.

But nobody IMO, comes close to Hornsby at all. Just look at the guys #'s and see for yourself. His .358 lifetime batting average is 2nd the Ty Cobb on the all-time list. Hornsby also has the highest single season average ever at .424. He also hit .400 in three seasons. He had 2,930 hits and the highest slugging percentage out of any right handed batter of all-time at .577. And the fact that he was a middle infeilder makes that more remarkable.

Hornsby played in the 20's and 30's though and was over shadowed by THE BABE. Hornsby did hit 300 homers, however, and this was at a time where people were not smashing 50+ homers in a season. So 300 HR's was pretty dam high for that era.

VonErich Lives
01-07-2004, 07:25 PM
Carew was good, but I wouldn't rank him in the top 5 2nd baseman of all-time. My list would be:

1) Rogers Hornsby
2) Napolean Lojoie
3) Eddie Collins
4) Joe Morgan
5) Jackie Robinson.

But nobody IMO, comes close to Hornsby at all. Just look at the guys #'s and see for yourself. His .358 lifetime batting average is 2nd the Ty Cobb on the all-time list. Hornsby also has the highest single season average ever at .424. He also hit .400 in three seasons. He had 2,930 hits and the highest slugging percentage out of any right handed batter of all-time at .577. And the fact that he was a middle infeilder makes that more remarkable.

Hornsby played in the 20's and 30's though and was over shadowed by THE BABE. Hornsby did hit 300 homers, however, and this was at a time where people were not smashing 50+ homers in a season. So 300 HR's was pretty dam high for that era.

I'd have to read some stats to give a better idea... but I'd have Carew in the top 3 possible. Probably in the top 5... but that's without looking at all the stats.

A lot of people forget, the year Williams hit .400, Carew was neck and neck for most of the season.

Loose Cannon
01-07-2004, 07:37 PM
I'd have to read some stats to give a better idea... but I'd have Carew in the top 3 possible. Probably in the top 5... but that's without looking at all the stats.

A lot of people forget, the year Williams hit .400, Carew was neck and neck for most of the season.

Wait, Williams retired in 1960 and Carew began his MLB career in 1967.

TheJShow
01-07-2004, 07:52 PM
I agree that Joe Carter may not be Hall material, but there's no way he should have been not kept on for more than one ballot. His first year he's voted off, that's kinda screwed. And why do 15 writers feel they can write in Rose's name when he's not even eligible. Good protest, all 15 are really showing there strength in numbers (sarcastic).

The Outlaw
01-07-2004, 08:26 PM
Anyone that doesn't think Dawson, Sandberg, and Sutter shouldn't be in should get their head examined.

I still stand by my original statement. :)

spilzrvd_69
01-07-2004, 10:21 PM
<font color=white>Molitor is mint. I have an autographed baseball of him. Musta went up in value for sure. I knew he would get in first time.</font>

BCWWF
01-07-2004, 11:30 PM
The Minneapolis Star Tribune had a big column today by osme guy who is allowed to vote for the Hall of Fame entrances and he was backing Bert Blylevin hardcore. Any opinions?

VonErich Lives
01-08-2004, 02:47 AM
Wait, Williams retired in 1960 and Carew began his MLB career in 1967.

Hmm... looks like I hit the Nyquil a little hard on that one...

Ok, what I meant was, (and I could be a little off) he had the highest single season AVG since williams... this was in the 80's... he was #2... may have changed by now...

Carew had that .388 year

VonErich Lives
01-08-2004, 02:48 AM
I still stand by my original statement. :)

Ok, stand by it.... but how about some reasons, stats, etc...

YOUR Hero
01-08-2004, 10:12 AM
Dawson's numbers were mainly done while playing on one knee. His cartilage detoriated and became non existant in one knee. It was bone on bone yet he kept playing and put up great numbers.

Carter was feared all his career and hit a game winning, world series winning HR.

The Outlaw
01-08-2004, 03:05 PM
Ok, stand by it.... but how about some reasons, stats, etc...

To which guy?


Carter was feared all his career and hit a game winning, world series winning HR.

DONT REMIND ME :mad:

VonErich Lives
01-10-2004, 06:55 AM
Dawson's numbers were mainly done while playing on one knee. His cartilage detoriated and became non existant in one knee. It was bone on bone yet he kept playing and put up great numbers.

Carter was feared all his career and hit a game winning, world series winning HR.

Sorry, Dawson's numbers still don't do it... neither do Carter... yes... a WS winning HR... but can't put a guy in on 1 hit.

As for Dawson, can't put a guy in based on what they would have done.


To which guy?



all of em, pretend I have a HOF vote... give me a case for them.

Loose Cannon
01-10-2004, 11:10 AM
Dawson is going to be a really close call. The .279 lifetime batting average and the .323 OBP may not look like hall of fame #'s, but if you take away the last two full seasons he played, those #'s would be a lot higher. Dawson does have a high Slg % and and when you compare it to the league SLG % at the time he played, it's way above. Dawson's .482 to The League's .396 average. Dawson was only about 200 hits away from 3000 and about 60 homers away from 500. But like Cater, it is very hard to get into the hall with a fairly low batting average (by Hall standards) and only 400 homers. You got to give Dawson credit, however, for playing as long as he did.

The Outlaw
01-10-2004, 09:13 PM
Well, here we go. By the way, if you need more convincing, you suck, but I will try to provide it. ;)

Ryan Sandberg:

Awards:
1983: National League Gold Glove at 2B
1984: National League Gold Glove at 2B
1984: National League Most Valuable Player
1985: National League Gold Glove at 2B
1986: National League Gold Glove at 2B
1987: National League Gold Glove at 2B
1988: National League Gold Glove at 2B
1989: National League Gold Glove at 2B
1990: National League Gold Glove at 2B
1991: National League Gold Glove at 2B

He was undoubtedly the most dominating second baseman of the 80's. As you see above, he won nine straight Gold Gloves. He was also a member of 10 straight All-Star teams and ranks first all-time for home runs by a second baseman with 277. He also has a higher career batting average than Hall of Fame second baseman Joe Morgan.

Not HOF numbers?

The Outlaw
01-10-2004, 09:26 PM
Bruce Sutter:

Awards:
1979: National League Cy Young Award
1979: National League Rolaids Relief Award
1981: National League Rolaids Relief Award
1982: National League Rolaids Relief Award
1984: National League Rolaids Relief Award

He finished his career with 300 saves. Four times he eclipsed both 30 saves and 100 innings, a feat that has been reached only once since Sutter retired. He was also one of the pioneers of the split-finger.

Loose Cannon
01-10-2004, 09:28 PM
Well, here we go. By the way, if you need more convincing, you suck, but I will try to provide it. ;)

Ryan Sandberg:

Awards:
1983: National League Gold Glove at 2B
1984: National League Gold Glove at 2B
1984: National League Most Valuable Player
1985: National League Gold Glove at 2B
1986: National League Gold Glove at 2B
1987: National League Gold Glove at 2B
1988: National League Gold Glove at 2B
1989: National League Gold Glove at 2B
1990: National League Gold Glove at 2B
1991: National League Gold Glove at 2B

He was undoubtedly the most dominating second baseman of the 80's. As you see above, he won nine straight Gold Gloves. He was also a member of 10 straight All-Star teams and ranks first all-time for home runs by a second baseman with 277. He also has a higher career batting average than Hall of Fame second baseman Joe Morgan.

Not HOF numbers?


You could of just copied and pasted my post to get backup :D

Loose Cannon
01-10-2004, 09:39 PM
Sutter's 12 year career is going to kill him. If you look at Eckersley's career you would see that he became a closer for the last 12 yrs of his career and he wound up with 390 saves. Sutter has 300 in 12 yrs. It's very tough for a closer to get into the Hall.

VonErich Lives
01-11-2004, 12:14 AM
I agree on Sutter... but I think the recent influx of closers hurts him and I'll agree on Sandberg...

Still can't go with Dawson or Carter...

It's the HOF, not everyone can make it... a lot of good players wont.

The Outlaw
01-11-2004, 03:45 AM
Yeah I kind of agree with you.

I PERSONALLY think Dawson is a hell of a player, but the last 2 (maybe three?) years hurt him. He batted something like in the 230's both years if Im not mistaken. LIke Hero pointed out, he was playing on one knee.

Injuries hurt Sandberg as well.

Out of the three Ive talked about, Dawson would be the closest call I think.

Loose Cannon
01-11-2004, 11:32 AM
No trust me, if I was going to bet money on anyone of those three going into the Hall, it would be Sandberg without any question.

Penner
01-11-2004, 12:07 PM
lol rolaids relief award

anyways, carter got like 17 votes

i think carter should get in simply because he took a shitty team to the series twice

The Outlaw
01-11-2004, 05:42 PM
No trust me, if I was going to bet money on anyone of those three going into the Hall, it would be Sandberg without any question.

Oh yeah, you misinterpreted me.

I meant, out of Sandberg, Sutter, and Dawson, Dawson would be the guy who would least likely get in, although I personally see him getting in. :y: