Big Show Comments on Brock Lesnar [Archive]

Goulet

02-15-2005, 07:53 PM

Both Big Show and John Cena appeared on SportsTalkCleveland.com for an interview where the Big Show talked about Brock Lesnar and his lawsuit against WWE:

SHOW: You know what, I'm gonna tell you something. Brock, listen to me because I'm telling you the truth from the heart - I'm pissed at you. I did a lot for him when I came over to Smackdown. I worked hurt with herniated discs in my back, chewing vicodins like they were M&Ms just so I could stand up straight and get to the ring, to do my match, to take an F-5 or a belly-to-belly or whatever I had to do to get him over, because he was gonna be our man. Whatever got in his head, to turn his back, which he did, on a multi-million dollar contract, had everything he wanted, EVERYTHING HE WANTED, and he got it fast. Great work ethic, tremendous in the ring, a natural at understanding psychology, executing moves and just being a freak of nature in the ring. Brock was all that and a bag of chips, there's no doubt about it. To see him go pull some goofball stunt and go play football, it really showed a tremendous amount of lack of respect to the guys in the locker room because when we needed him...

BELFI: He wasn't there.

SHOW: I had to have knee surgery. I had worn my kneecap down to the bone and when Brock left I had to work an extra two months so I could get somebody over, I don't know who it was, (John Cena laughs) so I could leave to go get knee surgery. He dumped all that on everybody. Just the attitude of he wants this, he wants that, he only wants to work a certain amount of dates. Honestly, my personal opinion, hey we had a great run with him, and we don't need him. We can work around him. To give him the red carpet treatment again, hell no.

PullMyFinger

02-15-2005, 07:56 PM

Big Show certainly isn't my favorite wrestler...but his work ethic is great and I respect him for that.

Kane Knight

02-15-2005, 08:10 PM

Big Show certainly isn't my favorite wrestler...but his work ethic is great and I respect him for that.
...Unless the ethic involved includes NOT ballooning up to 600 lbs.

This was the biggest load of self-fellating bullshit I've ever heard. Show's talking like he was Andre putting over Hogan.

The Answer

02-15-2005, 08:11 PM

Big Show certainly isn't my favorite wrestler...but his work ethic is great and I respect him for that.

I don't know about that if he had a strong work ethic wouldn't he be in alot better shape? I mean he was really overweight a couple months ago

Goulet

02-15-2005, 08:14 PM

I think he makes good points about Brock though, and I bet that's how a lot of the guys in the back think too

Kane Knight

02-15-2005, 09:06 PM

I think he makes good points about Brock though, and I bet that's how a lot of the guys in the back think too
Sure, and I agree with that, but when someone stops in the middle of a point to blow themselves, I can't agree with them.

Corkscrewed

02-16-2005, 12:24 AM

Nah, I agree with Show in this case. It's a good point, and it's not really blatant bragging IMO. Or rather, I didn't mind it.

John la Rock

02-16-2005, 01:01 AM

Show is right on the money. He bent his back backwards for Brock and this is the thanks he gets?

Fuck Brock Lesnar

Gouda

02-16-2005, 01:31 AM

KayfabeMan

02-16-2005, 01:43 AM

Show is right.

He didn't owe Lesnar a damned thing. He did him a favor.

Book did him a favor. The Rock did him a favor. Eddie, Taker & Angle all did him favors.

Hulk Hogan did him a REALLY BIG favor.

Then he just spits on something that other people have worked years and years at, and are actually good at to basically say that he hates it and wants no part of it.

Kane Knight

02-16-2005, 01:45 AM

No matter if you think Show is a bad worker, you have to see it from his point of view.

He put in the hours of work to give this guy the rub. He hurt himself. Then Brock leaves.

Basically all that work and pain was for nothing.
I do look at it from his point of view.

I look at it from the point of view of a company, a business where there is no certainty of the future. Where they give people massive pushes right before canning them. Where we get the announcement of the deaths of the likes of Brian Pillman randomly one night, or where they die in the ring or related. Where people suffer massive drug addictions, have personal problems involving great emotional stress, and go away all the time.

Thnere are a thousand scenarios upon which "all that work" will be for "nothing." And it's not like Brock up and quit one day. He showed far more professionalism than I would have expected, whether or not I like his leaving the WWE.

What kind of idiot doesn't expect that all that work might be for nothing? How fucking retarded must the Big Show be to actually act like this is a surprise, with all the losses, firings, and comings and goings of wrestlers? Considering he's so "professional" that he can't put down the twinkies long enough to put himself into decent shape?

Yeah. He busted his ass. Not hard to do when your blood pressure goes into 4 digits. The guy's gone. Well, there's a shocker. Somehow, I manage not to have much sympathy for the guy.

Kane Knight

02-16-2005, 01:46 AM

KayfabeMan

02-16-2005, 02:17 AM

It's not your job.

Wrestling, as you said above, is a business that chews you up and spits you out. You don't need douchebags like this guy coming along and speeding up the process of you becoming worthless. If these guys layed down for every rookie that comes along, it'd ruin them pretty quickly.

No one owed Lesnar anything, and yet he was given it. Dumb mistake on Vince's part, and it makes the boys feel even dumber for helping him make that mistake. Too much, too soon for a guy who didn't deserve 1/2 of that. He should've stayed down in OVW.

The Cerebral Assassin

02-16-2005, 07:50 AM

http://www.wwe.com/superstars/smackdown/big_show/images/big_show.jpg

Savio

02-16-2005, 08:03 AM

I still want to see Brock back in wrestling though.

SuperSlim

02-16-2005, 08:13 AM

Brock spit on them.

Sure he didn't deserve half the stuff he did get but still. Show on the other hand made a few points. But also KK made a few points as well. This business is not baout doin favors. It's bout gettin the job done. Not everyone is gonna stay in the biz like Flair and Hogan. Not everyone is gonna last over a decade like HBK and Taker. The long term had to be looked at and that was one thing that they didn't prepare for very well so WWE messed up in that sense. So really to point fingers is not the thing to do.

But it would be aight to see Brock in the ring one more time.

Kane Knight

02-16-2005, 10:03 AM

KayfabeMan

02-16-2005, 02:01 PM

It's not smart business.

It's fine to lay down for someone, but when it matters. It's not smart for anyone but Lesnar to have him defeat the entire roster, only to leave to pursue another dream. If he wanted to play football he should have done that before pinning everyone.

It made since for Goldberg to pin everyone early on in WCW, as he was a racehorse for them and was bringing the hype with him - and he stayed. It didn't make sense for Lesnar to pin everyone and then walk away. What purpose does it serve to get a guy over only to have him leave the company? The only one who benefits is him.

Kalyx triaD

02-16-2005, 05:31 PM

Kane Knight, your addiction to providing (often insightful) anti-points to something a mojority may find correct doesn't seem right here. How could you knock Show on something while he's giving a SOLID statement on the actions of Brock. It's clear that once you reach a certain status or respect in the WWE, you have a somewhat choice on who you lay down for. Taker is a clear cut example. And like other aspects in life, you either do it toward someones success or it was all in vain. Lots of guys gave Brock the 1-2-3, some of them rather surprising; and what does he do, "The hell with them, I wanna be a linebacker." And when he finds out guys don't give you shit in the NFL, he comes not crying back, but demanding shit (conveniently before the Rumble). Lesner's an ass, and Show got him spot on.

Fignuts

02-16-2005, 06:37 PM

I've got to agree with the majority on this one.

This isn't your average everyday job, where doing what your told is expected. The veteran workers have a say in what they do and who they lay down for. If it was as simple as "do what your told" then there would have been no controversy in the 97' SS and everyone would have sided with shawn.

P.S. Sorry for bringing up SS 97' but I thought it was a good example. Don't wanna start a riot or anything.

Blue Demon

02-16-2005, 06:47 PM

Show is right to be angry with Lesner, as is the rest ofthe locker room.

BigDaddyCool

02-16-2005, 07:24 PM

I'm going to give mad props to Show here, depsite the hand job he gives to himself in the argument.

But also, I want to point out that some how he wore some of his bones down to the bone, which just isn't possible....(Of course I'm talking about the "kneecap down to the bone" part, knee caps being bones.)

The One

02-16-2005, 07:53 PM

I don't think Show is bitching that he was injured, or that he is saying Brock was only big because of the work Show did, the fact is it takes a village to raise a child and an entire organisation to raise a star. Brock Lesnar was given the red carpet almost from the start...actually if I may correct myself, not almost, exactly from the start of hiw WWE tenure. And for what it's worth Big Show putting Lesnar over did help him on his way to becoming "The Next Big Thing" or "The Current Big Thing" or "A Big Deal" or "Worth Buying a Ticket For". Now I completly agree his attitude of 'I gave Brock this' isn't exactly fair since Vince & Co. tell the boys who to lay down for and who not to. But everyone in the WWE, from the ring crew to the McMahons helped Brock Lesnar become The Brock Lesnar.

The argument that he was professional in his leaving holds little value in my eyes. I can't imagine too many of us giving our notice wherever we work (Be it Wendy's or IBM) and then getting praise for doing it professionally. If I quit my job, even if I did it with grace and class, to work for another company, would I expect the company I originally worked for to bend over backwards to make my return all the more comfortable? No. WWE is a business. Borck Lesnar quit his job. In the real world (and yes Pro Wrestling falls into the real catagory here) you don't get welcomed back with special treatment once you find out the grass isn't greener on the other side.

If we look back on my opinion of Brock Lesnar through-out his time at WWE and after, I don't think I have said more then 2 or 3 possitive things on his behalf. The fact is I didn't like the unbeatable push he got, I didn't like the rumors of him getting a big head backstage, I didn't like that he was put over as the main guy. He was good in the ring, but so are about 300 other guys on this planet. He was over as fuck...but if a company like WCW can make a guy like Bill Goldberg over with an unbeatable push, then it stands as no surprise that WWE could do it with Lesnar.

Now back to the original point of Big Show's opinions of him...I would back Big Show. Yes he did his job, no that is not the reason I am singing Show's praises (for possibly the 3rd time in history) I am backing Show because his attitude is right. He and the other boys DID put their ass out their, the company did put alot of eggs in Lesnar's basket, and the fact stands that Lesnar DID basically throw all of that down the drain. Why bring back a guy who turned his back on you once? Fortunatly WWE is not a dumb love struck teen girl who takes back a boy after dumping her...at least I hope they're not.

The CyNick

02-16-2005, 08:27 PM

oy vey.

Big Show had a job to do, he did it. He doesn't deserve any praise for putting over Lesnar. Its not like he went out of his way to put Lesnar over, he just did what he was told. Lesnar was already a huge star BEFORE he crossed paths with Show.

What about the guys in WCW who did the exact same thing for Show? They all put him over, so he could be billed as the 'next big thing', and then what did he do? He jumped ship to the COMPETITION. Thats far worse than leaving the business altogether.

The hatred towards Lesnar for trying something else is so hilarious to me. This mentality the WWE guys have is rediculous. If Brock wasn't happy in WWE, then why shouldn't he leave and try to fulfill his dreams? Did he leave in the best way? No. But at the same time, he made all of his dates, and he did 2 keys JOBS on the way out. The WWE guys are just mad Vince didn't get a chance to humiliate him.

There are better things a person can do with their life then work for Vince McMahon's circus, and the people in the circus cant stand it when someone else tries to make a living somewhere else.

As far as it being a business, thats exactly why Brock should be welcomed back with open arms. Brock is a big star, the WWE is in need of big stars, therefore they should bring him back and push him like they did before he left. But again, you try to leave the circus, and you get punished. Sad but true.

Look at Rock, he's about to break through in Hollywood, and the WWE decides "hey lets not use him". Why? Because he's made it at something that doesn't involve the WWE. Rather than be happy for the guy, and try to use him to make money, they act like bitchy women and say "we dont want you here anymore". Doesn't matter to Rock, he'll be fine without them, but it sucks for the fans, and the WWE shareholders.

Its nice the Show is dedicated to the business, and willing to work hurt (although keep in mind EVERYONE in that company works hurt....even Brock!!!), but he needs to check this holier than thou attitude at the door.

KayfabeMan

02-16-2005, 08:37 PM

As far as it being a business, thats exactly why Brock should be welcomed back with open arms. Brock is a big star, the WWE is in need of big stars, therefore they should bring him back and push him like they did before he left. But again, you try to leave the circus, and you get punished. Sad but true.

Brock is a big star in his own mind - and that's the problem.

He's never given a shit about anyone else - the fans, the workers, the WWE - except himself since he got into the business. You can't expect these people to do shit for you when you don't care anything about them at all.

It's not like if Brock comes back he's going to bring a tremendous fan base in with him, and it's not like when he left he took a large group of fans with him.

It wouldn't make sense to take him back and push him like they did before, in doing that, he could do exactly what he did before and walk out again. WWE has guys, for whatever reason (actual loyalty, or just no place else to work), that are loyal to the company. Push them, not someone loyal to themselves.

Like The One said above, a star can be made out of almost anyone - it didn't need to be Lesnar who did it - it could have been anyone. He got too greedy.

The CyNick

02-16-2005, 09:40 PM

Brock is a big star in his own mind - and that's the problem.

He's never given a shit about anyone else - the fans, the workers, the WWE - except himself since he got into the business. You can't expect these people to do shit for you when you don't care anything about them at all.

It's not like if Brock comes back he's going to bring a tremendous fan base in with him, and it's not like when he left he took a large group of fans with him.

It wouldn't make sense to take him back and push him like they did before, in doing that, he could do exactly what he did before and walk out again. WWE has guys, for whatever reason (actual loyalty, or just no place else to work), that are loyal to the company. Push them, not someone loyal to themselves.

Like The One said above, a star can be made out of almost anyone - it didn't need to be Lesnar who did it - it could have been anyone. He got too greedy.

Thats a fountain of misinformation.

If "anyone" could be a star in wrestling, wrestling would NEVER have down periods. You would just constantly put a new person through the magic superstar creation machine and then count the stacks.

Is he the biggest star in the history of the business? Not by a a long shot. But this is a company that is in desperate need of people who can sell tickets. Brock has done that in the past, not to the level of Austin or even a Bret Hart, but as much as the people who are currently on top. Plus, with his time off, he will be fresh, and that in itself could be worth some money. But the WWE isn't thinking business, they are taking it personally, which is wrong.

Brock owes nothing to the WWE. He made them money, way more than he was paid. He did his job, he worked hard, worked hurt, he put people over when it was his time, and he tried something else.

For whatever reason people see this as treason.

Heyman

02-16-2005, 09:47 PM

Thats a fountain of misinformation.

If "anyone" could be a star in wrestling, wrestling would NEVER have down periods. You would just constantly put a new person through the magic superstar creation machine and then count the stacks.

Is he the biggest star in the history of the business? Not by a a long shot. But this is a company that is in desperate need of people who can sell tickets. Brock has done that in the past, not to the level of Austin or even a Bret Hart, but as much as the people who are currently on top. Plus, with his time off, he will be fresh, and that in itself could be worth some money. But the WWE isn't thinking business, they are taking it personally, which is wrong.

Brock owes nothing to the WWE. He made them money, way more than he was paid. He did his job, he worked hard, worked hurt, he put people over when it was his time, and he tried something else.

For whatever reason people see this as treason.

I agree with everything you said, but didn't Lesnar talk shit about the WWE?

There's nothing wrong with leaving the WWE if your heart is no longer in it (or if its somewhere else), but talking smack about the company that helped you is wrong.

I want Lesnar to come back more than anyone, but will the lockerroom respect him? Furthermore - do we REALLY want to see Lesnar become a mid-carder? The WWE are dumb enough to do this. :nono:

The CyNick

02-16-2005, 10:10 PM

I agree with everything you said, but didn't Lesnar talk shit about the WWE?

There's nothing wrong with leaving the WWE if your heart is no longer in it (or if its somewhere else), but talking smack about the company that helped you is wrong.

I want Lesnar to come back more than anyone, but will the lockerroom respect him? Furthermore - do we REALLY want to see Lesnar become a mid-carder? The WWE are dumb enough to do this. :nono:

Lesnar may have talked crap about WWE, but I'm sure that was after the WWE and the guys were talking crap about him. Niether should be talking about the other.

I definately dont want to see Lesnar back as a mid card guy, in fact if thats their plan then I say why bother?

I mean I wouldn't be against him putting people over. But they would be much wiser to re-establish him as a dominant guy, and then at that point get him to put people over.

But the WWE would likely have him do a quick JOB for Holly, just to prove a point. Oh yeah, and lose a ton of money in the process.

John la Rock

02-16-2005, 11:25 PM

that would be something Lesnar jobbing to Holly

Pepsi Man

02-16-2005, 11:48 PM

hmmm, so many things I'd touch on here, yet so few of them do I really want to spend the time actually typing a response to mention, BUT...I couldn't let this go without making mention of the "talk smack" stuff.

Brock, in NUMEROUS interviews talked about how above wrestling he was and how now he would be in a "real" sport and even refused to sign his autograph for fans on any wrestling-related item. Brock pissed not just on the WWE, not just on all the wrestlers, but on the fans as well.

As for wrestlers talking smack, I remember on wwe.com, guys like Austin, Edge, and Molly Holly wishing Lesnar the best and Austin even commending him for his decision. Rock even appeared on ESPN and put Lesnar over, claiming he expected him to make it big in the NFL. Anyway, that is all.

Pepsi Man

02-17-2005, 12:01 AM

Brock Lesnar's mom blocked Brock Lesnar on MSN messenger when she found out that Brock was leaving the WWE (and hence - walking away from such a large contract and would no longer be able to support her financially). :p
So did Brock then kill his mom and then commit suicide for using the internet?

Corkscrewed

02-17-2005, 05:18 AM

^ LOL. Took the joke right out of my head.

As far as it being a business, thats exactly why Brock should be welcomed back with open arms. Brock is a big star, the WWE is in need of big stars, therefore they should bring him back and push him like they did before he left. But again, you try to leave the circus, and you get punished. Sad but true.

Wow, maybe for the first time ever, I'm going to have to disagree with you.

I personally didn't mind Lesnar leaving. In fact, I was among the minority who said "he's leaving a job he doesn't like to pursue a dream; good for him!" I mean, I was definitely disappointed that he was leaving, but I totally agreed with his motives. It wasn't selling out or anything, it was him doing what was good for him.

But even back then, nearly a year ago, I said that if he comes crawling back, my respect will be out the door.

It's been established that he doesnt' have a passion for wrestling. He might like it, but only because it brings him lots of money. If he had to pay his dues at the same rate most other wrestlers do, he'd never stick around.

In my book, Lesnar doesn't deserve to come back. Why come back and take away the spot of someone else who's busted his ass to get to whatever level he's at? Sure, you might make the argument that it'll be good for business, but lets face it: Lesnar was never at a Rock or Stone Cold level. Hell, at this point, John Cena probably has more street recognition than Lesnar. So he only adds a main eventer and he'll only appeal to the wrestling fans. He won't branch out to other fans. That clearly makes welcoming him back a rather useless and trivial gesture, similar to signing Scott Steiner well past his prime.

Lesnar is already making huge demands. Obviously, his ego is more inflated than a porn star's boob job, so why reward crap like that? I agree with the WWE: screw Lesnar if he's going to be an ass before he even comes back. I would be hesitant to let him back even if he was humble, let alone how he's like now.

Okay, the guys did their job in putting him over when he was with the company. And when he left, yeah that hurt, but they can't really make a huge point about it. It's a sort of betrayal, yes, but what's done is done. But when he wants to come back... THEN the point about putting him over in the past suddenly becomes valid, because now, what's done is coming back to make an effect on the future. The point is that Show's arguments can be used to prevent history from repeating itself.

And that is why I think Show has some valid points.

BigDaddyCool

02-17-2005, 11:45 AM

Brock owes nothing to the WWE. He made them money, way more than he was paid. He did his job, he worked hard, worked hurt, he put people over when it was his time, and he tried something else.

You know, this comment doesn't sit well with me. Brock did make WWE some money, but it seems he quit during his prime, and right before he could really start making WWE some money, and himself in the process. I would like to see some hard numbers to back this up.

As far as Brock owing WWE anything, he does. Maybe not fiscally, but in other ways. WWE pushed him to the moon and made him a name in less than a year. Brock owes a lot to WWE.

I've said it before, and I'm going to say it again, guys shouldn't be pushed to the top and win a championship belt in their rookie year. It gives them nowhere else to go.

John la Rock

02-17-2005, 05:28 PM

What about the guys in WCW who did the exact same thing for Show? They all put him over, so he could be billed as the 'next big thing', and then what did he do? He jumped ship to the COMPETITION. Thats far worse than leaving the business altogether.

How is it far worse?

Big Show didn't leave professional wrestling all together like Brock did. At least Show benefited from the jobs that others guys did for him. It allowed him to become a bigger star in WWE.

KayfabeMan

02-17-2005, 05:46 PM

How is it far worse?

Big Show didn't leave professional wrestling all together like Brock did. At least Show benefited from the jobs that others guys did for him. It allowed him to become a bigger star in WWE.

That was my point too.

Show had the benefit, and if it made him a big star - even in a different place other than WCW - it helped to benefit the business as a whole, which is what everyone should be working towards, instead of what just benefits one guy.

Show gets over in WCW, and goes to WWF. It generates a buzz, which gets a bit more fan interest going, and business for WCW equals business for WWF which was proven when WCW and ECW closed. The business still remains in that slump.

The CyNick

02-17-2005, 10:59 PM

Show went to WWE, and that started a trend of guys leaving WCW for WWE, that eventually put WCW out of business, that eliminated about 50 spots for wrestlers to work. How exactly is that all good for the industry again?

The point I was making about his jump to WWE was that WWE was in a war with WCW, they were not working together for the better of the industry. They were in fact trying to put the other out of business. Along that line of thinking, the guys in WCW who sacrificed to make Show a star were then pissed on (using Show's logic here not my own) when he went over to WWE to make them money at WCW's expense.

I dont get what people fail to comprehend about being paid a salary to do a job. If you work at McDonalds and flip Burgers, are you a bastard if you then decide to quit McDonalds and become a street perfromer because you love live performance? You dont owe them shit. You did a job for them, they paid you, and thats that.

Lesnar did the wrestling thing, and then decided he didn't want to do it anymore. Should he have given more notice, yeah, but he went out way better than Austin did, and few people rag on Austin like they do Lesnar. I have no problem with people's backwards logic that you have to be "loyal" to the WWE and wrestling in general, but at leats be consistant about it.

As far as passion goes, why does someone have to be passionate about wrestling in order to make a living at it? Bill Goldberg doesn't have a ton of passion for wrestling, but he was really good at it, and made himself and the people around him a ton of money. Thats what they call a win-win situation. The guys who have the most passion tend to be the guys who get shit on the most. The guys like Jericho, Benoit and Guerrero. I'm not trying to put those guys down, but if I were to become a wrestler, I wouldn't pattern myself after those guys, I would look at the guys who took what they could and made the most money as role models (like Nash, Hogan, Goldberg, HHH and others).

Its easy for some of you guys to say "they have to be pasisonate" or "he owes the WWE", but what does Vince McMahon do for the guys when they are no longer of use to him? What, he gives them a payday every now and then to humiliate themsleves. Thats real loyalty there. If Vince McMahon were to show loyalty to all the guys that have lined his pockets with green over the years, then I would say the boys "owe him", but thats not the case, so they should take whatever they can get.

One last thing, one of you guys mentioned Lesnar talking down pro wrestling in comparison to other sports, guess what, wrestling is below all other pro sports. Thats just a fact. Why do you think most wrestlings professional sports resume reads something like this: "Marginal college football player, failed to make it to the pros, then went into wrestling". Wrestlers are in some cases great athletes, but for the most part they are miles behind the average football, basketball or even baseball player. Because if they were good enough to hang with htose guys, they would be in those sports.

KayfabeMan

02-18-2005, 12:16 AM

Show went to WWE, and that started a trend of guys leaving WCW for WWE, that eventually put WCW out of business, that eliminated about 50 spots for wrestlers to work. How exactly is that all good for the industry again?

He didn't start a trend of anything, he was simply the first in a series of guys who were pissed at WCW's management / direction that decided to leave. It isn't as though everyone said, "Hey, Show is leaving, let's all get to WWF". It is like saying Show caused WCW's downfall; also, guys leaving had little to do with WCW closing.

I dont get what people fail to comprehend about being paid a salary to do a job. If you work at McDonalds and flip Burgers, are you a bastard if you then decide to quit McDonalds and become a street perfromer because you love live performance? You dont owe them shit. You did a job for them, they paid you, and thats that.

You can't compare working for a regular business with pro-wrestling. But you did, so let's try to work with it. Let's say that WWE is McDonald's, and Brock is a potential employee. They hire him, and instead of having him flip burgers, they push him right to CEO of the entire company - not just one location. It is now Brock's lifetime opportunity. Everyone at McDonald's who has 20 years in the company / industry on Brock is sacrificed to make him the best guy in the company.

Then Brock suddenly quits, and all of their work for all of those years was done for absolutely no reason. The idea, as someone said earlier about Brock, is to build a guy up, so when someone beats him it means something to the wrestling community. Having Brock beat everyone and then leave makes any-one else beating them useless.

Ex. It's a big deal to beat Hogan, Brock does it and leaves. Now say Hogan is willing to lay down for Orton - is it really a big deal?? He lost to some other schmo who isn't even around anymore, and was a one hit wonder. Lesnar was lucky to even be in the ring with 80% of the people he worked with, and he has no appreciation for that whatsoever.

KayfabeMan

02-18-2005, 12:26 AM

Also, there is a HUGE difference between Austin leaving with no notice and the way Lesnar left. Lesnar is a KID, and Austin put his f'n time in for YEARS and YEARS. He (Austin) didn't just get hired as a rookie, get put over on everyone, get a belt and then quit.

He was around for a long time, did what he was supposed to do, and unlike Lesnar, made the company millions and millions of dollars. Lesnar was not, nor will he ever be, a star the magnitude of Austin. When you've paid your dues, then you have the right to make decisions like that.

Austin wasn't put over at other people's expense. Austin layed down on times when it was called for, and to people who would help the company - not just themselves. The only reason Lesnar would get work anywhere else at this point is because all of those guys laid down for him, so it made his career. So yeah, he does owe them.

Do I agree with Vince's way of treating his guys, or his "loyalty"? Not at all, but Brock is just as bad for acting the same way Vince does. The only reason that the boys will put up with it from Vince is because he pays them. Brock didn't do anything for them; they did for him.

The CyNick

02-18-2005, 07:14 PM

What are you talking about?

Austin didn't have help getting over? Yeah Bret hart didn't do anything for him, neither did Foley or Taker or Rock...make some sense man.

Name me ONE guy that Austin actually put over on his way out. I can name one for Brock.

Brock didn't beat Hogan and leave. He beat Hogan, wrestled for nearly two years making a lot of money for Vince (no not as much as Austin did, but a considerable amount nonetheless) and then left.

You make it sound like he beat all these guys became WWE champion and walked out the next day.

Your CEO example is a good one, and guess what it happens all the time in the business world. A corporation will often hire a guy for the sole purpose of making them CEO, because of their track record. Brock has a legit background, and the WWE decided to push him to the moon because of it.

If that same CEO decides to leave the company to become a pro football player even though they are turning down a 7 figure salary that doesn't make them a traitor or a bad person. They did the job they were hired for, they tried to make money for the company that employed them and then they moved on. How that makes you a vilian I still dont get.

Like I said if there was loyalty on Vince's end, I could see the arguement, but there isn't.

KayfabeMan

02-19-2005, 01:07 AM

Austin didn't have help getting over? Yeah Bret hart didn't do anything for him, neither did Foley or Taker or Rock...make some sense man.

Name me ONE guy that Austin actually put over on his way out. I can name one for Brock.

I never said Austin didn't have help getting over, I said he wasn't put over at other people's expense. Bret, Foley, Taker or anyone else laying down for him isn't a big deal, considering Austin was just as much of a veteran as them - & was a draw for WCW before they stupidly released him.

Also, with The Rock, I'd say it's more of Austin doing him a favor by working with him, because he could've nixed it and Rock might not have been as big a star. So Rock laying down for him is/was expected. Austin was over enough in WCW and ECW before even coming to WWF, but he was never utilized the proper way. WWE used him that way, and it worked. It didn't take much to elevate him, he did it on his own when finally given the chance.

Actually, Austin hadn't really wrestled wrestled since 2003 or so, and I recall him doing a job for The Rock back then. After that it was Austin being gone, Austin in skits, Sheriff Austin, GM, and all of that. Austin refused to job to Brock, which everyone bitched about - but it turned out to be a smart move.

That's what all of the guys are kicking themselves in the ass / bitching about. Austin, not wrestling, wasn't in a position to put anyone over anyway. That & the fact that he didn't owe anyone anything to put them over. As far as Brock putting someone over, how nice of him. That sure was considerate to worry about someone else other than himself. I know that after all his years of work, losing a match like that helped to ruin his rep. :'(

The CyNick

02-19-2005, 01:04 PM

You're missing the point.

Putting somone over has very little to do with "laying down". Very few people say "Brock is better than Hogan because he beat him". That logic went out the window in the 70s.

Bret Hart, Foley, Taker, and Rock all put over Austin night after night by selling for him and making hm look like the biggest badass in the world. Bret Hart especially. Bret Hart was at a point in his career where he didn't need to make someone look good at his expense. BUt he did it, and in a way it led to his downfall because by making Steve a huge star he himself became expendable.

Austin has NEVER done that for anyone. Yeah he did a JOB for The Rock in his last match, but Rock was already a bigger star than him, and it was only one match. It was actually pretty meaningless in the grand sheme of things.

Austin is selfish, like most main event guys, and on more than one occasion he left the company high and dry. So like I said, you can hate Brock for leaving the WWE but at least be consistant about why you bash people.

And dont get me started on someone like HBK.

Kane Knight

02-19-2005, 01:27 PM

Austin refused to job to Brock, which everyone bitched about - but it turned out to be a smart move.
Sorry, this is just plain stupid. That's the same level of retardation of saying that it was a smart move to let your drunk friend drive cross country, while sucking on a bong, simply because you were lucky enough to get there.

Austin threw a tantrum and walked because he didn't want to lay down for someone. It's not a smart move, and is bad for business. If it happened to have a positive outcome, because Brock left, that's not proof that it was a smart move.

Loose Cannon

02-19-2005, 03:16 PM

Ok, I see both arguments here and in reality, it's an argument that can never be one because both sides are talking about two completely different aspects in the world of business.

I see Kayfabe Man's point about Brock coming in, getting pushed the top rather quickly at other's expense and then saying fuck it. But this argument is based on ethics/morality and goodwill. Yea, from an ethical standpoint, it might be the wrong thing to do, but when has Vince McMahon ever been ethical anyway? That guy is the personification of "unethical."

With CyNick's point, it's strickly business. Brock did his job and left. In a business sense, there is nothing wrong with that. Wasn't his fault the WWE pushed him pretty quick. They do that a lot these days with guys. Brock tookthe oppurtunity the WWE gave him and I'm sure most of us would have done the same. Yea, guys whohave busted thier asses for years and never got that kind of push are going tobe pissed, but that's one of life's realities. It happens every day in business and sometimes it's bullshit.

So the real argument here is was it right for Brock to leave? And it's just a matter of opinion and a question that can be debated forever.

Personally, I had no problems with Brock leaving. He did what he wanted to do for a while and then wanted to do something else. How can you deny a guy the way he wants to live his life? Yea, I agree he was a dick for not giving them a warning a time beforehand that he was leaving, but I guess it was just a sudden thing.

With Austin, that guy helped put nobody over during the end of his career. Not one guy. Hell, did he ever put anybody over one time? Maybe Rock, but I would even argue Rock and HHH got themselves mega-over by wrestling each other. Austin never really did a dam thing for a guy coming up. Taz, RVD, Booker T, what happened there? Austin's going around stunning everybody every single night when he wasn't even wrestling anymore. Yea, that's great.

That's while I'll always argue Bret and Flair are the two greatest wrestlers of all-time, because they made money for companies when they were on top and they put thier companies in positions to make more money when thier careers were coming to the end of thier careers as far as being able to go every night.

Kane Knight

02-19-2005, 04:05 PM

The arguments overlap heavily, as the stances are not mutually exclusive. The problem is that in entertainment, ethics and business can easily go hand in hand. People with shit work ethics are usually bad for business, where as people with good work ethics are good for business.

Austin kept taking. Bad for business, bad for ethics and good will. Austin leaving over this was done poorly, and was bad ethically and bad for business. He didn't do his job, and he was on a far worse ethical AND business stance than brock was.

Kayfabe's argument revolves around who owes who, which is moot, because this IS a business. When someone walks into a store and you sell them something, you don't go "okay, but you owe me." You're not doing someone a favor by obeying management and store policy. And yet, even if this retarded point wasn't totally raped by then, Ausitn's not sitting pretty, yet he seems to hero worship the guy.

Fox

02-20-2005, 01:12 PM

I've really gotta side with Kayfabe man on this one.

Professional wrestling is not JUST a business. It is a legacy in North America, and it has been for many, many years. The rules of the game are constantly changing, but the basics will remain the same. It's not about Brock "making a business decision" or Vince McMahon making a bad business decision, it's about respect for the industry that made you a star. Brock has none.

Brock Lesnar was a guy fresh out of college, and was coming into pro wrestling with one hell of a background story. NCAA champion and all of that, plus his incredible build and look. He had the makings of a star. However, it takes much more than the look of a star to become a star in the world of professional wresting - it takes hard work from you and your fellow wrestlers.

The WWE gave everything to Brock Lesnar in a hand knitted gold basket with a fucking ribbon on top. Squash victories over the established Hardy Boyz, King of the Ring, victories over Rob Van Dam, the destruction of Hulk Hogan that solidified him as a monster, a clean win over The Rock at Summerslam for the WWE Championship after less than a year in the WWE, a Royal Rumble victory, a WrestleMania main event victory, and numerous wins over The Big Show. And he walked out on it all.

Like I said, it's all about having respect for the business. Not only does Brock have zero respect for the WWE (and wrestling in general), but he has shown zero gratuity toward the men who made him who he was. Those jobs made Brock Lesnar a star, and he pulled down his pants and took a mighty big shit on all of them. It wasn't just a business decision, not for Lesnar or for McMahon. It was the fact that they gave Brock everything any aspiring wrestler could ever want (you don't think guys like Jericho, Benoit, Bob Holly, Rob Van Dam, and Eddie Guerrero weren't glowing with envy?), and he acted like it was nothing. This wasn't just business. This was the wet dream of pushes in the world of pro wrestling. And he didn't care.

Big Show has a great point as he was the one who kept Brock fresh. Big Show is a 7 foot, 500 pound gorilla of a man, and he took massive risks to put over Lesnar. Need I remind you of one of the greatest moments of 2003 - when the Smackdown ring was decimated after a superplex from Lesnar to Big Show? Or how about his running powerbomb across the ring? Needless of reminding are the numerous and impressive F5's that Big Show took during their feud, even after what happened to A-Train. Show gave Lesnar a huge amount of popularity and help by all of his huge bumps, and like I said, Lesnar spit on his contributions to the man's career.

Now, I'm not the type of person to berate someone for chasing their dreams, but Brock went about leaving the WWE in a horrible fashion. No contract discussions, no joint decisions between him and McMahon. It was up and leave, right before the biggest show of the year, where Lesnar was booked to have one of the biggest matches and actually to go over as well. But he spit on that too, and McMahon made the right choice in giving Goldberg the nod.

Brock treated the wrestling industry like shit while he was trying to get into the NFL, and it doesn't take a genius to figure out why. The NFL looks at pro wrestling as a joke - a form of entertainment to men who play a REAL sport. Lesnar demeaned the wrestling business to try and fit in better as a REAL athlete in a REAL sport. Not signing autographs on WWE merchandise because "that part of his life is over." Of course, when he didn't make it into the NFL, what did he do? My god! He tried to come back to the WWE, and he tried to do it under his own rules! Even the most self-serving asshole would realize that he had no leverage, and should probably crawl back on his hands and knees and beg for his job back. But Brock Lesnar has no respect for the business.

Brock didn't become a star in the WWE. In his three years there, he made some good money, but he didn't become a celebrity as far as Triple H is a celebrity, or even Kurt Angle and Undertaker are celebrities. He's going to regret leaving because he could've done so much more in his young career, but he ruined it because he didn't realize what he had. The bird flew the coup on a wrestling career for Lesnar, and I believe Big Show, and all the other guys in the back, have every right to hate Brock Lesnar.