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BasicThuganomics
12-10-2003, 04:12 AM
I've been reading alot about how much the WWE sucks lately and i'm wondering why people are saying that? IMO the WWE has been on the right track the past couple of months. Most shows have been above average, with a couple that i thought have been great at times. I think one of the reasons that people still say the WWE sucks (besides being stupid, ignorant, and impossible to please) is because some people think nothing will compare to the product WWF (and in some people's opinions) WCW or ECW was putting out a few years ago. I do not know much about WCW or ECW I'll admit, so I'm gonna stick with comparing WWE now to the WWF Attitude era. I apologize in advance for how long this is gonna be...


WWF Attitude:
Obviously at the time with very tough competition, the WWF was under pressure to pull out all stops necessary in order to get attention. They were willing to try anything, and it worked for them.
They had gimmicks and characters that were new and very controversial:
a porn star: Val Venis
Pimp: Godfather
Guy who talked to his voices and a head: Al Snow
a group that encouraged immature behavoir and told everyone to Suck It: D-Generation X
and of course the beer drinking, foul mouthed, SOB who stood up to his boss: Stone Cold Steve Austin

Now as far as character development, I'll admit that the current product isn't quite as good as a few years ago. But at the time, all of these characters were very new and different. Wrestling fans had really never seen gimmicks this shocking and outrageous before (while many have good arguments that ECW did first, WWF was obviously to a much larger audience) So to judge what the WWE is doing now compared to back then is kinda unfair, because the WWF pretty much changed their entire direction during that time.

Storylines were just as controversial, just as new and exciting as the characters that they revolved around:
Godfather fought in order to make certain divas become one of his Ho's
Val Venis nearly got his dick chopped off, and was able to get several divas to appear in his films
DX getting girls to flash, and "invading WCW"
Sable getting nearly naked several times, and eventually appearing in Playboy
Undertaker's almost satanic rituals of sacrificing victims and opponents (I know he always was kinda that character but he never took it to that extreme before did he? Correct me if I'm wrong on him)
The guy with more charisma and trash talking ability than anyone had ever seen before in the Rock
Stone Cold's quest for the title that led to confrontations with Mike Tyson, pulling a gun on his boss, and causing chaos with many different types of motor vehicles and ALOT of beer and middle fingers.

Now at the time, nearly every character was involved in storylines, and most storylines made more sense at the time. This is due to the fact that WWF didn't have nearly as much talent as the WWE does now. It is definately easier to make stories based around 20-25 wrestlers than the 40-50 or more that are around now. Plus, something else to consider is that the angles that were being produced were different than most wrestling fans had ever seen before. WWF was trying new things at the time that were controversial. And one thing that the WWE lacks is a solid main-event storyline that they can base their shows around. Back then, the main players were usually Stone Cold, Rock, HHH, and Mankind with Vince of course always interfering. Pretty much the entire product was built around them, and fans were always looking forward to seeing what would happen next. Yes, midcard storylines were good too, but the show was obviously built around them.

Matches started to get more exciting with Hardcore matches, Hell in a Cell, TLC, and ladder matches being more common. But great wrestling wasn't nearly as good as it is now. Spotfests were more common back then IMO.


WWE now:
Character development is something that is somewhat lacking now definately. But there are definately certain bright spots on each show:
Newer characters such as John Cena: There is definately no one like him on WWE right now. From his t-shirts, to his promo's and his attitude... He's great (I'm obviously a big fan! \mm/ ) his gimmick started out as a joke, but he has turned it into something serious and entertaining. Some people even envision him as the man to help get the WWE out of its current ratings slump and to become the next HUGE SUPERSTAR similar to Rock or Austin
Legend Killer Randy Orton: this guy has definately got the looks and personality to be something huge. While i'm wondering what will happen when he runs out of legends to kill, he definately has the charisma to draw attention to himself. His in-ring skills are somewhat green at times, but there is no denying his potential if he continues to improve.
Brock Lesnar: He's got the in-ring ability (maybe not the best ever, but he's still VERY good) along with a great look that makes people believe he is the best. He's got sort of a natural charisma to him, and his promo skills are FINALLY improving so that he can stand out on his own.
Certain veteran characters are definately improving as well:
Eddie Guerreo: He lies, He cheats, He steals, He's ****ing awesome. Eddie has definately turned into someone capable of holding his own in the main event. He's quite frankly one of the best in the world right now. He's even more impressive considering the personal battles he has overcome in his life.
Big Show: I know i will get shit for this, but certainly anyone can admit that he has definately improved since he came to smackdown. He was thrust into the main event scene, and he did a damn good job while he was up there. He's definately improved in my book.
Matt Hardy: The Sensei of Mattitude was definately a pleasant surprise to me. I, along with many others, thought that Matt would be buried in Jeff's spotlight. He was obviously written off when the Hardys split, by writers and fans alike. Almost no one knew how much talent and charisma that Matt had when he went to Smackdown. But Matt has definately shown that he is the more talented of the two Hardys (IMO) Matt definately has the ability to advance towards the top sometime down the road. Mattitude RULES!!
Quite frankly, the amount of pure talent the WWE has right now makes the WWF look shitty: Chris Benoit, Jericho, Kurt Angle, Rey Mysterio, Goldberg, RVD, Booker T, Christian, Rob Conway (can't wait to see what he does as a singles star) World's Greatest Tag Team, Shawn Micheals, Tajiri, Chavo, Hurricane, Test, and so many others that are world class talents.

Wrestling matches have been great the last couple of years:
Matches have developed beyond the spotfests that were common in the WWF. Nowadays, certain matches on TV are just as good as some of the Match of the year candidates from the Attitude Era. WWE is really putting on some great matches with good action, good psychology, and definately still the occassional "HOLY SHIT!" moments that we all love to see.

The Women's division is 10x better then it ever has been:
Some people seem to think women's wrestling isn't important, and I can understand if the only reason people like girls are because of T&A. However, nowadays, we still have some freaking incredibly hot divas:
Stacy, Torrie, Trish, Sable, and Victoria to name a few...
but these girls have definately become good athletes as well. Nowadays, a women's match is often somewhat entertaining (with the Trish/Victoria fued being my favorite)


Overall I think the Attitude Era was probably more exciting to watch, because the WWF was doing whatever necessary to get fans to watch the program immediately. The writers seemed more concerned with what was gonna happen in the next few weeks or months, rather than looking ahead to the next few years. Many wrestlers have been injured because of unnecessary risks during that time.

The WWE now seems to be a product that is looking toward the future. Wrestlers aren't taking too many risks, and the WWE is constantly trying out new stars to see who the fans react to. The shows are steadily getting better, and so are the wrestlers themselves. I believe that ratings aren't dropping that much anymore, but are at least staying somewhat constant.

So I can understand that people may have enjoyed the Attitude Era better, but i don't think its fair to say WWE sucks right now. I also don't think it's fair to compare WWE to that time. Attitude was about a totally new direction for WWF. WWE is not necessarily going in a new direction but trying to build on the direction they started a few years ago. Its hard to get to the level that the WWF rose to a few years ago, but it's even harder to stay at that level like the WWE is trying to do now.

once again I apologize for this being long, but i honestly had nothing to do at 2 in the morning so this is how i wasted my time.

Anyone feel free to agree or disagree, or to add in their own opinions....

c4g2
12-10-2003, 04:29 AM
WWF attitude era had really interesting storylines, and nice HOLY SHIT moments like Austin dropping HHH when HHH was in a car from a crane. :y:
And of course, who could ever forget the spray of water WCW got from Kurt Angle and Kurt downing like a gallon of milk?

But the match quality in WWE is much better than WWF. I would prefer Attitude, as I don't watch wrestling for the moves, I watch it for entertainment.

Darwin Henderson
12-10-2003, 04:58 AM
Attitude was about ten times better than the WWE. It had better characters, more entertainment, decent wrestling and a lot better storylines.

c4g2
12-10-2003, 05:00 AM
I agree with the storyline part.

Paranoid Rattlesnake
12-10-2003, 05:04 AM
Welcome one and all to The Emergency Room, the premise of which is simple. I will take a recent WWE feud and analyse it as best I can, looking at the problems encountered with it, how severe these are and whether or not they can be overcome. Then I go into creative mode and re-write the storyline as I would have done it in the first place. I become the booker and wipe the slate clean, then re-write the angle using only my imagination and understanding of the wrestling business and what makes for entertaining TV. I hope you all enjoy and I look forward to hearing what you have to say about it. . .

The Victim


The near five-month long saga between Kane and Shane McMahon which once showed promise but has taken several wrong turns and is now ranked among the worst feuds of 2003. When will those in charge of the on-screen direction realise that car crashes, a man’s testicles being electrocuted and other nonsensical angles are not the way to effectively develop storylines and sell PPVs to the public?!

The Symptoms

What exactly was the problem (or 'problems' to be more accurate) with the angle? Well it seemed that after an enjoyable first few weeks the booking team lost sight of the job at hand, which ultimately was to continue the Kane push and make him seem more like an indestructible force than ever before.

Instead this turned into an exercise that appeared to exist only to swell the already throbbing ego of Shane McMahon, as he for weeks on end did what others could not and was able to get the better of Kane, laying him out time and time again. Sending him crashing off the stage through a table, tumbling into a pit of fire and trapping him inside a speeding car heading to its doom were only some of the angles used in this feud to establish McMahon Junior as a living, breathing superhero.

This is precisely where this programme went wrong and the blame must be placed firmly at the feet of those who hold between their fingers the pencil responsible for churning out WWE television on a weekly basis. Other 'symptoms' include a firm lack of direction, poor story-telling, a plethora of preposterous segments and angles, all held together by two weak PPV matches that were rife with sloppy brawling, silly spots and head-scratching booking. Judging by the list of ailments connected with the feud many of you may well be asking 'well what was right about it?'. And being as objective as I possibly can, speaking with an open mind the answer is 'not a lot'. . .

Severity

Thankfully this mess fizzled to an end at Survivor Series so the question of whether or not it can be saved is irrelevant in this instance. Of course it could have been, especially in the weeks building up to the Unforgiven debacle, with some astute thinking and character manipulation on the part of Team Creative but alas such action was never taken. I mentioned early this was a strong contender for a 'Most Abysmal Feud Of The Year' award and although that is the case, perhaps a more fitting label is that of 'Most Disappointing', taking into consideration the early promise it showed.

As a performer Shane's strong points lie in his ability to work spot and weapon filled gimmick brawls, where he can display all manner of flashy moves and big bumps and at the same time mask his flaws as a worker. So on paper a Last Man Standing and Ambulance match sound like the type of environment suited to a feud between these two but in practice this wasn't the case at all.

The reasoning? Both competitors don't get off lightly for what must be considered two relatively poor performances but really, it all ends up back at the door of the booker responsible for the lay-out of both matches and in particular the finish to Unforgiven, which left Kane lingering in the shadow of the daredevil Shane 'O' Mac. A big mistake to make.

The Operating Table

Dealing in the past tense as the programme has now been laid to rest, the big question is what could have been done to save it? Well under the circumstances I feel that the logical thing to do is start at the very beginning. . .

In booking a 'David vs Goliath' type of storyline the key is to establish 'David' (Shane in this case) as the courageous, honourable warrior who may not always win but is guaranteed to give of his all each and every time. That is the strength of such a character: showing heart and determination even when faced with insurmountable odds and placed in seeming impossible scenarios. The hero’s resiliency and 'never say die' attitude wins him the support and admiration of fans who admire and respect him and his fight.

With Shane the problem began after he made his return and laid out Kane, because instead of being booked as the sympathetic babyface out to get revenge for his mother, he suddenly became this ass-kicking machine who hammered 'The Big Red Machine' time and time again.

The angle where Shane dropkicked Kane into the flaming dumpster was where it really began to waver. For a start he returned to RAW the following week with no signs of any burns or marks, which killed the angle dead and took it into the realms of campy, slapstick pantomime as opposed to a hard-fought, emotional and epic struggle.

For his big return they had Kane march out and attempt to electrocute Shane 'O's testicles using a set of jump leads. Needless to say this only increased apathy and decreased public interest in a storyline that was going downhill at an alarming rate. In the space of three segments the program had been killed and their TV segments, once the strong point of the broadcast, were down to doing mediocre numbers on a weekly basis. So for my first act of surgery, I would eliminate both the dumpster angle and the ‘nads electrocution from the feud altogether.

Now going back to the start of the feud, Shane returned to RAW on July 28 and attacked Kane before beating him with a chair and sending him flying off the RAW entrance way and through a table. This was a good way to start the angle in my opinion because it made sure that McMahon's return got people talking and that he got heat on himself as a babyface, by going after Kane for what he did to his mother the previous week. It made sense for him to pummel the monster here because it put his comeback over strong and set the angle up perfectly with Kane sitting up from the bump and smiling.

Skip forward a month to August 25 (the show which featured the dumpster spot) and this is where my creative control comes into play. Fresh off his demolition of RVD at Summerslam the previous evening Kane should have been booked in a match with RAW babyface fodder material: either the likes of Val Venis, Tommy Dreamer or Spike Dudley - 'granted' to him by Eric Bischoff as a reward for what he did to Van Dam.

I’d have had him plough through his opponent in rapid fashion and continue the assault after the match with JR and 'The King' selling the angle in a big way, calling for 'medical attention' and urgent assistance to try and stop the carnage. Kane lays out several referees who are at ringside and proceeds to beat on all those around him until Shane McMahon runs down and shoves him headfirst into the ring post, busting him wide open in the process.

Like an animal smelling blood, Kane sits back up and wipes at his forehead before laughing manically and rubbing the blood all over his chest as a symbol of defiance to McMahon. Shane-O looks intimidated but doesn't back down and charges at Kane before unleashing a series of blows to the head which don't even phase the monster as he cuts him off with a clubbing right hand and drops him head and neck first onto the ring barrier. He looks at the fallen Shane and then glances up at the Titantron, before placing him over his shoulder and carrying him up the entranceway, stopping as he reaches the top of the ramp.

JR and King put over the idea that Kane is out of control as more security guards and EMTs appear to try and calm him down. Kane positions Shane for a Tombstone and then drops him with the move head first onto the steel, just like he had done with Linda a few weeks earlier. As Shane lies motionless, Kane stands over him and continues to laugh uncontrollably before wiping his head again and then smearing his own blood down the face of the helpless McMahon. The announcers compare this to what he did to Shane's mother and ask if there is anyone who can stop him. The medics and referees attend to Shane whilst Kane stares blankly into space before surveying the damage and leaving.

The following week on RAW (the testicles angle) Bischoff announces that Shane isn't at the arena because he is still suffering from the effects of the Tombstone, but 'Here Comes The Money' plays and Shane-O appears with a neck brace on. He says that he isn't cleared to be here tonight and that by right he should still be at home resting, but there's something he needed to get off his chest. What Kane did to his mother was unacceptable and by hook or by crook, he is going to pay for his actions. He knows that Kane is a vicious animal out of control and he knows that in a fight, well, he's (Shane) going to get his ass kicked but that doesn't mean he won't die trying.

So he issues a challenge to Kane for the upcoming Unforgiven PPV in a match so brutal that it hasn't been seen in over three years, where everything is legal and anything goes. A match that will end careers and that will inflict inhumane amounts of punishment on their bodies...Last Man Standing. So in the space of this promo we have seen Shane firmly positioned as the underdog, pushed the idea of Kane as a monster, made their Unforgiven match seem of huge importance and established the 'Last Man Standing' gimmick as being something special. This is how it should have been done in my opinion. Moving on…

Bischoff agrees that this is the only way for them to settle their differences and so he makes the match for Unforgiven, but goes on to announce that as a 'warm up' for the PPV, Shane will be in action next week on RAW against an opponent of Eric’s choosing. And that opponent is going to be none other than. . .Mark Henry. And the match is going to be 'Falls Count Anywhere'.

Shane gets in Bischoff's face about making the match and shoves him down to the mat but is ordered to leave the building by the GM, or else his match with Kane at Unforgiven will be scrapped. Reluctantly, Shane leaves as the announcers hype his upcoming battles with Mark Henry on RAW and then Kane at Unforgiven.

The next week (September 8 and two weeks before the PPV) Shane takes on Mark Henry in a 'No DQ' match and the finish sees him crack Henry with a kendo stick several times and set him up for the 'Van Terminator'. From nowhere the Pyro hits and Kane appears on stage and marches menacingly down the aisle, causing Shane O Mac to lose concentration on the match and launch himself over the top rope at 'The Big Red Machine'.

They brawl at ringside and into the crowd and eventually end in the back where Kane clobbers Shane with a steel pipe and sets him up for a chokeslam through a wooden crate, but he slides down his back and shoves him headfirst into a wall. With both men staggering, Shane picks up the pipe and cracks Kane over the head with it several times before Mark Henry appears with a chair and swings, however McMahon ducks and Henry lamps Kane square in the head.

Shane retaliates with a pipe shot to 'The World’s Strongest Man' and then pins him to win the match. As he turns round, Kane is back on his feet and uses the chair to send him crashing down to the concrete floor. He starts choking Shane with the chair until other wrestlers arrive and separate them, with Kane vowing that this was nothing compared to what he would do to him at Unforgiven in the 'Last Man Standing' match.

On the final RAW (September 15) before Unforgiven, Kane is booked in a match against another lower card babyface. During the match Shane McMahon comes through the crowd and hops the barrier, then reaches under the ring and brings out a table before setting it up at ringside. Kane continues with the match and defeats his opponent with the Chokeslam and as he is climbing over the top rope, Shane O Mac slides into the ring and throws powder in his eyes to blind him.

Kane is blinded on the apron and holding onto the ropes to keep his balance, which gives Shane the opportunity to hit him with a chair and he goes crashing through the table. With Kane flat out, Shane grabs a microphone and starts to make a 'ten count' which will be seen in the 'Last Man Standing' match at the PPV, but as he reaches nine Kane sits up and stares back into the ring at Shane, who smugly flips him off and leaves through the crowd.

Chances of Survival: I could correct the whole feud running right through to Survivor Series but in my opinion the early exchanges were where momentum was lost, through a combination of uneven booking, silly angles and a lack of foresight. I feel that the scenario laid out above would have been so much stronger in building the feud, their Unforgiven PPV match and developing Kane as a monster but at the same time allowing Shane to revel in the role of gutsy underdog.

lariat
12-10-2003, 06:25 AM
I still thought it was real and I also didn't have the internet, so that is why the Attitude era seems cooler to me.

BasicThuganomics
12-10-2003, 06:45 AM
Attitude had its share of bad characters: Oddities, the real man's man, headbangers, dan severn, mideon, naked mideon (ewwww) viscera, even the big boss man was around back then.
Attitude was far from perfect, but the parts of it that were good, were quite frankly AWESOME. The main event storylines made up for the rest of the show back then.

As far as ten times better?, not quite. I kind of think it probably was better overall back then. but today's product has parts that are better than attitude era. The actual wrestling is definately way better now than attitude era.

But obviously, if you enjoy storylines, and great mark out moments then attitude will be your choice. If you enjoy better Wrestling then WWE now will probably be very enjoyable.

Sensei Of Mattitude
12-10-2003, 08:00 AM
Quote: Matt Hardy: The Sensei of Mattitude was definately a pleasant surprise to me. I, along with many others, thought that Matt would be buried in Jeff's spotlight. He was obviously written off when the Hardys split, by writers and fans alike. Almost no one knew how much talent and charisma that Matt had when he went to Smackdown. But Matt has definately shown that he is the more talented of the two Hardys (IMO) Matt definately has the ability to advance towards the top sometime down the road. Mattitude RULES!!


You are awesome. Mattitude over Attitude any day!

sensai86
12-10-2003, 12:34 PM
Honestly,I enjoyed both era, and each have things that give you the need to say "HOLY SHIT!".Wither it Mick Foley being thrown off of the Hell In Cell or watching the Big Show use Rey as baseball bat(that was crazy).We have been there when Austin procaimed the name of "AUSTIN 3:16",and watch Matt Hardy give us "MATTITUDE" and become Version 1. Each have things to remember not saying one is better than the other(I know the "Attitude Era" was bigger)I'm saying I enjoyed both.

The CyNick
12-10-2003, 01:32 PM
Ive been watching wrestling for a long time, so unlike some people I actually remember a time before Scott Hall showed up on Nitro for the first time and said "Hey Yo".

As a result I recognize that wrestling will have its ups and downs, just like a pro sports team rarely stays on top for decades at a time.

So yeah the Attitude era was really good, and business was hot. But it wasn't just the angles and crazy gimmicks, for me the best year in WWE history was 2000. That year they didn't rely on the pimps and porn stars to get ratings, instead they had established a core group of superstars, and almost all of them could work like crazy. The result was week after week, and PPV after PPV of great wrestling. Not only that but we got to see new stars like HHH and Rocky start to take their place on top of the roster (after seeing them rise through the mid card for years) and at the same time I had hope that guys like Angle, Benoit and Jericho would get their chance to step up as well.

Somewhere after Wrestlemania XVII they stopped elevating people. And for me, thats when wrestling started to SUCK. Chris Benoit never got his chance to run with the ball. Kurt Angle and Chris Jericho's title runs were pathetic and did nothing for either guy except devalue the importance of the WWE/WCW titles. Then to make matters worse the much anticipated WCW vs WWF war designed for nothing more than to stroke Vince McMahon's ego, instead of to put on entertaining television and PPV. And within that we got more and more potential superstars who would get puches teased only to be taken away with no payoff (ie RVD, Tazz, Booker T, and others).

To add to all of those problems the WWE slowly became a vehicle for the McMahon family to have their own TV soap opera. Unfortunately fewer and fewer wrestling fans actually wanted to see that. The we had the horrible angles like handing HHH the World title (also killing Brock as a draw) necrophilia, HLA, and of course Al Wilson. More and more as a long time wrestling fan I felt insulted.

Fast forward to today, and yeah I can see that they are making some strides to improve the product. However the same mistakes are still being made. None of the guys who clearly are the next generation of superstars are being protected. Orton has yet to get a decisive win over HBK, but has done a clean JOB for him. Cena has done the same with Taker. Eddie Guerrero was the most over guy on either roster in the summer, but he lost to the Big Show, and now he's lost nearly all his steam. Matt Hardy was a cult favorite despite not getting any type of push, and yet he never got any PPV time or decent fueds to work with. Even Brock Lesnar, who had a special aura for rarely losing, had that stripped away when he was doing a series of pointless JOBs on TV. And of course we had the mishandling of Goldberg right from the start.

At the same time look at some of the guys who have been protected: HHH (cant work anymore and doesn't draw), Taker (decent but also has seen his drawing days pass him by), Kevin Nash (sucks on every level you can think of except being a master politician), Big Show (clearly didn't deserve a top spot, although his fued with Lesnar was entertaining), and of course the McMahon's (never been a draw on PPV, and yet they headlined a number of PPVs of the last few months).

Then we have the continuing problem of angles not meaning anything. Its a dangerous practise to con people into paying for a PPV with the promise that something very important is going to happen, only to reneg on that promise a few weeks later. The WWE has done this so many times that its lost all menaing. Steph got fired, but we all know she'll be back soon enough. JR and King lost their jobs, only to have thats tip reversed what two weeks later? And now Austin who had an emotional "end" to his career at Survivor Series, will back back within a matter of weeks. So how as a fan am I supposed to take seriously the next time the WWE promotes that 'someone will end their career this Sunday'?

So you see none of these problems have anything to do with specific gimmicks needed to make wrestling better or finding the next "Rock or Austin", its just about basic wrestling booking that doesn't insult my intelligence as a fan. Until the WWE rights all of these wrongs will I be able to enjoy wrestling like I did not only in the "Attitude Era" but also in other times in the history of the WWE. We'll see if they can do it, I know I have my doubts.

RGWhat316
12-10-2003, 07:15 PM
I gotta actually agree with CyNick, 2000 was really an elevating year. I remember the July ppv Fully Loaded was a tryout which promoted a triple main event with Angle, Jericho, and Benoit being in the main events with Undertaker, HHH, and The Rock respectively. And it worked, Angle was in the main event at SummerSlam, Benoit involved at Unforgiven. And Jericho was given better stuff too. The main event of Rock vs Benoit is one my all time favorites as Shane kept interfering on Benoit's part, Benoit "winning" the title before Foley changed it and The Rock retained.

And like what was said earlier, the big storylines is what made the Attitude era. I remember when The Rock, who was the champion, wrestled jobbers during RAW. But all the Austin/McMahon stuff is really what would steal the show.

Then, like a lot of people I started to lose interest after WM X-7. Austin turned heel, HHH went right with him, The Rock left, and Kane and Undertaker were all of a sudden thrown into the main events. I did like the Invasion angle until people started jumping sides. It was WWF vs WCW/ECW, and you got people like Angle and Austin and Christian on team WCW/ECW.

2002 didn't really go off too good for me, Jericho's unexpected title reign, the nWo came in, the brand extension, Flair running RAW, and Austin leaving. But around the summer it picked up as I really enjoyed SummerSlam, but then HHH gets the World Title and his squash matches. Necrophillia against Kane, trying to spike ratings with HLA and Billy/Chuck ceremony.

2003 got a bad start with HHH/Steiner stinking up RAW, but Angle/Benoit/Lesnar making SmackDown better. A heel Rock was good with great comedy moments with The Hurricane and Stone Cold. I even enjoyed Hogan vs McMahon, especially some of their promos almost attacking each other. But since then we've had McMahonamainia with Vince running SmackDown, Vince vs Stephanie, Linda and Bischoff getting together, then Shane beating the hell out of the mask-less Kane. But I've loved Austin as Co-GM, and then Foley coming in, Cena on SmackDown. 2003 has been better, just not as good with main events without elevating more stars.

KillerWolf
03-23-2004, 12:41 PM
I've been reading alot about how much the WWE sucks lately and i'm wondering why people are saying that? IMO the WWE has been on the right track the past couple of months. Most shows have been above average, with a couple that i thought have been great at times. I think one of the reasons that people still say the WWE sucks (besides being stupid, ignorant, and impossible to please) is because some people think nothing will compare to the product WWF (and in some people's opinions) WCW or ECW was putting out a few years ago. I do not know much about WCW or ECW I'll admit, so I'm gonna stick with comparing WWE now to the WWF Attitude era. I apologize in advance for how long this is gonna be...


WWF Attitude:
Obviously at the time with very tough competition, the WWF was under pressure to pull out all stops necessary in order to get attention. They were willing to try anything, and it worked for them.
They had gimmicks and characters that were new and very controversial:
a porn star: Val Venis
Pimp: Godfather
Guy who talked to his voices and a head: Al Snow
a group that encouraged immature behavoir and told everyone to Suck It: D-Generation X
and of course the beer drinking, foul mouthed, SOB who stood up to his boss: Stone Cold Steve Austin

Now as far as character development, I'll admit that the current product isn't quite as good as a few years ago. But at the time, all of these characters were very new and different. Wrestling fans had really never seen gimmicks this shocking and outrageous before (while many have good arguments that ECW did first, WWF was obviously to a much larger audience) So to judge what the WWE is doing now compared to back then is kinda unfair, because the WWF pretty much changed their entire direction during that time.

Storylines were just as controversial, just as new and exciting as the characters that they revolved around:
Godfather fought in order to make certain divas become one of his Ho's
Val Venis nearly got his dick chopped off, and was able to get several divas to appear in his films
DX getting girls to flash, and "invading WCW"
Sable getting nearly naked several times, and eventually appearing in Playboy
Undertaker's almost satanic rituals of sacrificing victims and opponents (I know he always was kinda that character but he never took it to that extreme before did he? Correct me if I'm wrong on him)
The guy with more charisma and trash talking ability than anyone had ever seen before in the Rock
Stone Cold's quest for the title that led to confrontations with Mike Tyson, pulling a gun on his boss, and causing chaos with many different types of motor vehicles and ALOT of beer and middle fingers.

Now at the time, nearly every character was involved in storylines, and most storylines made more sense at the time. This is due to the fact that WWF didn't have nearly as much talent as the WWE does now. It is definately easier to make stories based around 20-25 wrestlers than the 40-50 or more that are around now. Plus, something else to consider is that the angles that were being produced were different than most wrestling fans had ever seen before. WWF was trying new things at the time that were controversial. And one thing that the WWE lacks is a solid main-event storyline that they can base their shows around. Back then, the main players were usually Stone Cold, Rock, HHH, and Mankind with Vince of course always interfering. Pretty much the entire product was built around them, and fans were always looking forward to seeing what would happen next. Yes, midcard storylines were good too, but the show was obviously built around them.

Matches started to get more exciting with Hardcore matches, Hell in a Cell, TLC, and ladder matches being more common. But great wrestling wasn't nearly as good as it is now. Spotfests were more common back then IMO.


WWE now:
Character development is something that is somewhat lacking now definately. But there are definately certain bright spots on each show:
Newer characters such as John Cena: There is definately no one like him on WWE right now. From his t-shirts, to his promo's and his attitude... He's great (I'm obviously a big fan! \mm/ ) his gimmick started out as a joke, but he has turned it into something serious and entertaining. Some people even envision him as the man to help get the WWE out of its current ratings slump and to become the next HUGE SUPERSTAR similar to Rock or Austin
Legend Killer Randy Orton: this guy has definately got the looks and personality to be something huge. While i'm wondering what will happen when he runs out of legends to kill, he definately has the charisma to draw attention to himself. His in-ring skills are somewhat green at times, but there is no denying his potential if he continues to improve.
Brock Lesnar: He's got the in-ring ability (maybe not the best ever, but he's still VERY good) along with a great look that makes people believe he is the best. He's got sort of a natural charisma to him, and his promo skills are FINALLY improving so that he can stand out on his own.
Certain veteran characters are definately improving as well:
Eddie Guerreo: He lies, He cheats, He steals, He's ****ing awesome. Eddie has definately turned into someone capable of holding his own in the main event. He's quite frankly one of the best in the world right now. He's even more impressive considering the personal battles he has overcome in his life.
Big Show: I know i will get shit for this, but certainly anyone can admit that he has definately improved since he came to smackdown. He was thrust into the main event scene, and he did a damn good job while he was up there. He's definately improved in my book.
Matt Hardy: The Sensei of Mattitude was definately a pleasant surprise to me. I, along with many others, thought that Matt would be buried in Jeff's spotlight. He was obviously written off when the Hardys split, by writers and fans alike. Almost no one knew how much talent and charisma that Matt had when he went to Smackdown. But Matt has definately shown that he is the more talented of the two Hardys (IMO) Matt definately has the ability to advance towards the top sometime down the road. Mattitude RULES!!
Quite frankly, the amount of pure talent the WWE has right now makes the WWF look shitty: Chris Benoit, Jericho, Kurt Angle, Rey Mysterio, Goldberg, RVD, Booker T, Christian, Rob Conway (can't wait to see what he does as a singles star) World's Greatest Tag Team, Shawn Micheals, Tajiri, Chavo, Hurricane, Test, and so many others that are world class talents.

Wrestling matches have been great the last couple of years:
Matches have developed beyond the spotfests that were common in the WWF. Nowadays, certain matches on TV are just as good as some of the Match of the year candidates from the Attitude Era. WWE is really putting on some great matches with good action, good psychology, and definately still the occassional "HOLY SHIT!" moments that we all love to see.

The Women's division is 10x better then it ever has been:
Some people seem to think women's wrestling isn't important, and I can understand if the only reason people like girls are because of T&A. However, nowadays, we still have some freaking incredibly hot divas:
Stacy, Torrie, Trish, Sable, and Victoria to name a few...
but these girls have definately become good athletes as well. Nowadays, a women's match is often somewhat entertaining (with the Trish/Victoria fued being my favorite)


Overall I think the Attitude Era was probably more exciting to watch, because the WWF was doing whatever necessary to get fans to watch the program immediately. The writers seemed more concerned with what was gonna happen in the next few weeks or months, rather than looking ahead to the next few years. Many wrestlers have been injured because of unnecessary risks during that time.

The WWE now seems to be a product that is looking toward the future. Wrestlers aren't taking too many risks, and the WWE is constantly trying out new stars to see who the fans react to. The shows are steadily getting better, and so are the wrestlers themselves. I believe that ratings aren't dropping that much anymore, but are at least staying somewhat constant.

So I can understand that people may have enjoyed the Attitude Era better, but i don't think its fair to say WWE sucks right now. I also don't think it's fair to compare WWE to that time. Attitude was about a totally new direction for WWF. WWE is not necessarily going in a new direction but trying to build on the direction they started a few years ago. Its hard to get to the level that the WWF rose to a few years ago, but it's even harder to stay at that level like the WWE is trying to do now.

once again I apologize for this being long, but i honestly had nothing to do at 2 in the morning so this is how i wasted my time.

Anyone feel free to agree or disagree, or to add in their own opinions....
sorry dude. i gotta disagree with you. wwe sucks right now. here's why. first of all, character development isnt 'somewhat lacking'. it ****in' sucks! what is Booker T all about? nothin'! he's just some wrestler. the wwe just tries to tell you who to love and who to hate, but they dont give you any reason to feel one way or the other. here's a typical story line for ya: "im gonna take your belt" -- "no youre not"
i quit watching wcw and went back to wwf around 1998 because they were putting on tougher matches. if they had been putting on matches like today i would NOT have switched over to wwf. most wrestlers, especially internet darlings, benoit, RVD, and booker T, for example, put on the same boring ass predictable formula of a match week in and week out. and it is more of a 'spotfest' NOW than it was THEN.
i agree that the womens division is much better today. sadly, this is because the wwe matches are so horrible that the female matches are among the best female athletes often appear to be better workers than the males. i hope i made that point without taking anything away from molly or victoria.
oh yeah, heres a clue for wwe. the corrupt GM angle has been played out for a long time.
in summary: wwe sucks because
* storylines are crappy to non-existent
* the roster is full of 'characters' that it is hard to give a shit about
*9 times out of 10, monday night main events are meaningless handicap tag matches.
*its the same damn show every week
*matches are weak, sloppy, predictable, and full of contrived spots
*i cant be the only one sick of the corrupt GM angle

gotmilkfunb
03-23-2004, 01:23 PM
I TOTALLY agree with you Shock&Awe. You said EVERYTHING that I was going to say until I got to your post. Good job with the post man, you definatly hit the nail right on the head. I'm personally sick and tired of this bull that the WWE feeds us week in and week out. They NEED to give us something better. Something that pushes the boundaries and limits like it used to. I LOATH this new direction of completly athletic compition that they are going in. It's SPORTS ENTERTAINMENT, yet somehow, they've forgoten to entertain me. I'd take wrestlers who can not wrestle at all but are dripping with charasma and character over the "Workers" such as RVD, Benoit, and Eddie any day.

Nacho Man
03-23-2004, 02:45 PM
why was this bumped from so long ago?

KillerWolf
03-23-2004, 04:54 PM
Why did you bump this you prick?
prick!?! huh... sorry. was that a bad thing? i am new to this whole thing. i saw a topic that i had an opinion about and stated my opinion.
sorreeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.........

BasicThuganomics
03-23-2004, 05:27 PM
WOW, how bored where you to find this thread from a longass time ago? What page was this on before u bumbed it?

Anyway, the point of that thread was me stating that WWE right no is headed in the right direction, and they are slowly getting better. Compared from mid2001 to about mid2003 the WWE has been doing a much better job. I believe that Attitude was in many ways better than the current WWE, but Attitude was far from perfect though.

But when you say that wrestlers such as Benoit, RVD, Booker T aren't as good as other because you believe they lack charisma, I think that you are completely wrong. If you believe that a sports entertainer is better than a Wrestler, you are completely wrong IMO.

I realize that an important part of the WWE is that performers need to have a character that people will take interest in and have charisma that people will be influenced by. I realize that backstage skits, promos, interviews and other things besides actual matches are important to the WWE. I realize that WWE calls itself a "sports entertainment" group. But the things is that what it all comes down to is that WRESTLING is th most important part of WWE, whether you want to call it sports entertinment or not. All of the Backstage skits and interviews, and confrontations between wrestlers ultimately lead to a WRESTLING match. Bret Hart said it right when he stated that when all else fails, just putting on great wrestling matche will always be entertaining, and is the backbone of what this industry is all about. Wrestling ability is more important than anything else.

Take John Cena for example (I'm obviously a big fan of his :) ) As far as having charisma and a character that the fans can relate to, Cena is light years ahead of most people in the WWE. But he is not ready to be a main eventer because of the fact that he can't wrestle a match that will tell a story to get the fans to support him. All of his trash talking and "entertaining" that he does always leads to a wrestling match in the ring. Until Cena is able to learn better psychology and how to tell a story in the ring, he is not ready for main events.

Now take someone like Benoit, who is obviously not the most charasmatic person in the WWE. And as far as his character goes, besides being a great wrestler, Benoit has no character. But in the last couple of years, Benoit has recieved like 3 standing ovations simply for putting on great performances. He even lost the match to Angle at RR03, but he recieved the standing ovation after the match. At WMXX, after what was a very long (and somewhat boring at times) PPV, Benoit put on a performance that led to all of Madison Square Garden cheering for him during the match, and giving him a much deserved standing ovation for an accomplishment that he has deserved for years. Wrestling is what caused the fans to show so much respect for Benoit, not "sports entertainment"

Look also at someone like Ric Flair, who will probably go down as the greatest wrestler of all time (and rightfully so) While Ric Flair has alot of charisma, he is known for being the best World's Champion of all time and still to this day putting on good matches. His DVD is the best selling DVD of all time for WWE, simply because of the fact that he has always put on great wrestling matches. Even today, fans yell, "WHOOOOO!" as a sign of respect to someone who has been always been a great wrestler.

I am saying again that having charisma and a good character are all important parts of making it in the WWE, but ultimately, being a great WRESTLER is the most important thing....

KillerWolf
03-23-2004, 06:04 PM
sure. my all time favorite: Bret Hart; and it wasnt for his promos or his backstage antics. with Bret Hart, every match was different and every match was great, a saga if you will. you talked about telling a story in the ring. here is the problem we have today. RVD, Booker T, Benoit, the Dudleys-they're telling the same damn story in the ring week in and week out. the exact same story. and with the exception of Benoit, the spots are really contrived.

KillerWolf
03-23-2004, 06:42 PM
I TOTALLY agree with you Shock&Awe. You said EVERYTHING that I was going to say until I got to your post. Good job with the post man, you definatly hit the nail right on the head. I'm personally sick and tired of this bull that the WWE feeds us week in and week out. They NEED to give us something better. Something that pushes the boundaries and limits like it used to. I LOATH this new direction of completly athletic compition that they are going in. It's SPORTS ENTERTAINMENT, yet somehow, they've forgoten to entertain me. I'd take wrestlers who can not wrestle at all but are dripping with charasma and character over the "Workers" such as RVD, Benoit, and Eddie any day.
thanks. im glad you appreciated what i had to say.

SeanMC
03-23-2004, 08:25 PM
^i understand what your saying about matches being too predicteble i get bored myself with them lately(especially mid card matches) and turn back 5 mins later to see the result cos the ending is all that interests me nowadays, the moves are always the same n shit.But what the difference between some wrestlers is, is that some can pull a good match out of them and some can't. E.g. i watch benoits matches alot more than other wrestlers matches because he can tella good story through a match even if he does use the same moves but f-
uckin hell, he pulls those german suplexes off damn good if you ask me, 'when he does em im like, 'f-uck that's gotta hurt' but if im watching someone say like A-train, then im just gonna turn the channel over cos its the same ol shit every week from wrestlers like him.
I think the three major things wwe is lacking right now are 1) character devlopment, 2) Grabbing our attention with new shocking storylines that don't insult you for being a wrestling fan 3) Wrestlers who can pull off a decent main event which is mainly because of the number one reason...

John la Rock
03-24-2004, 03:09 PM
The attitude era was succesful because there was more entertainment and cool storylines.

Now it's more wrestling based which is not a bad thing but I perfer the entertainment aspects of WWE

KillerWolf
03-25-2004, 09:42 AM
The attitude era was succesful because there was more entertainment and cool storylines.

Now it's more wrestling based which is not a bad thing but I perfer the entertainment aspects of WWE
the problem today is that there is almost NO entertainment and NO storylines. lets start by looking at the titles and their surrounding storylines. no, wait...they dont have any. tag team champs scotty2hotty and rikishi, for example. does another tag team ever do a run-in. does scotty to hotty ever get jumped backstage. no. they just defend their title every week and retain it, unfortunatley. sorry for the rant, but DAMMIT i hate that tag team.

BasicThuganomics
03-25-2004, 12:32 PM
I realize that storylines aren't as good as they used to be a few years ago. My post was aimed towards gotmilkfunb who said that entertainers are better than wrestlers. That is just wrong IMO.

I happen to think that WWE is improving however over the last few months also is a point I was trying to make in the original post.

Also, Scotty and Rikishi do suck I agree with that.

John la Rock
03-25-2004, 02:25 PM
ya WWE has been improving indeed :y:

and yes Rikishi and Scotty should be released