Preaching to the choir with this broken record...

[Batsu]

...but really, isn't it apparent...








....that WWE has hit an all-time low? It's hard to get into a lot of their programming nowadays, even though there are flashes here and there that make the show special. After watching this week's offering, it's just getting worse. I think it's been on a steady decline since the InVasion turned into a Vince McMahon ego-booster, though when the brands split, SmackDown had some really entertaining TV, in spite of the limitations put on by Vince and Co.

The "dirt sheets" are all pointing the finger at Vince and Steph, and while it may not be easy to prove how valid they are, if they really have their hands in creative as much as the "dirt sheets" say they do, then it's really showing and needs to stop.

Does anyone have any interest in seeing HBK versus Vince McMahon, whatever crap they're planning to do with Orlando Jordan, or whatever "Shock TV" even they're trying to prop up? It seems like it's bring up X-Pac heat more than anything else, if it gets a reaction at all....especially in the case of the Vince vs HBK stuff.

I don't have much of a problem with the current champions save for the fact, that especially with Cena, they've taken their collective "edge" and discarded most of it for some generic, crowd-pleasing crap.

The Undertaker: You know, I really like the guy, but I think even the Undertaker himself is growing tired of the way he's being portrayed on TV. At first, I wasn't mad that the Undertaker had become somewhat of a median between Biker-Taker aka "Mark" (they should have never said his name on TV) and the Undertaker of old, but it seems Vince wants to turn back the clock and have all the ridiculous light shows and props to go along with it. It sucks, really.

In-ring action: I think it's high time the piledriver ban is lifted, not to mention the restrictions on cruiserweight matches. If injuries are the issue, look no further than Batista and Kid Kash as to how banning moves outright can't stop injuries from happening. If it happens, it happens -- but wrestlers should be able to have some input on what kind of matches they put on. I'm not saying that HHH should go Ganso Bombing people or anything. But obviously, no piledrivers to Benoit, or any other wrestler with neck problems. Bret Hart piledrove people for 20 years and hurt no one. You mean to say that they don't trust a guy like Kurt Angle to do the same? Vince must be allergic to "cool" wrestling moves. I've seen more innovation come out of the Women's division than anywhere else in the past year, Victoria usually being the one responsible. I've seen nothing but horrible powerslams and crap like that parading as finishers as of late -- some of that crap wouldn't even fly in 1975....

Booking: Why is it that Chris Benoit and Booker T, both former World Champions, must compete on the No. 2 belt for the SmackDown brand instead of gunning for Angle? Shouldn't Matt Hardy, or Orlando Jordan be feuding over it instead? Why has it taken this long for Randy Orton to hover near the main event (rightfully; I'm not going to count that "he only one so Vince could spite Brock" reign)? Why is Ric Flair the Intercontinental Champ still? Shelton and Carlito, clearly the guys at that belt's level, should be battling it out. Where are the tag teams?

I won't even talk about the Eddie exploitation; it's been discussed at length before, and I don't really need to retread it.

It just seems more than apparent that Vince is delusional, and as a result, the shows seem just that much.

For all the talk about Bret Hart being "big enough" to let him do the DVD set, Vince has to show that he can be the same. The endless stereotypes, horrendous gimmicks (though, I think I like the Boogeyman. He doesn't even have to wrestle, really), the reliance on shock TV, and the refusal to let wrestlers that were popular elsewhere, or on their own accord, get pushed and make him more money....are pretty ridiculous.

Even with TNA around, WWE is basically the only show in town, and they're just getting too complacent.

I think the biggest problem is that WWE doesn't even TRY to be believable anymore; they insult the intelligence of their viewers pretty badly now IMO; just because they know it's predetermined doesn't mean you have to be beyond silly.

This isn't really a "how would you book it?" post, this is just a rant. This time, it really seems like it's for real.

[Pinnacle Charisma]

I think if the wwe would become more entertaining if Vince dropped two of his most beloved polices which are No.1- Push the big man and No.2 shock tv.

I dont know why Vince continues with these two polices. Thoughout the years some of Vince's most popular champions have been small for example Flair, Savage, Hart and Michaels. And some of Vinces bigger flops have been at the hands of him pushing talentless big guys for example Henry(he was planned to the wwf's new big superstar in 1996), Sid, Warrior (to an extent) and Nash. Maybe Vince was attacked by a midget back when he was a child and been getting at smaller people ever since.

Secondilly Vince should drop all these shocking angles its not 1999 anymore when shows like Jerry Springer ruled the roast. Viewers want shows with complex well-written characters and long intresting storylines. See shows like lost, 24 etc. Viewers want characters they care about. "Shocking angles" like Tim White and Eddie dosnt gain viewers it turns them off

[Kane Knight]

I think WWE would be better if they dropped their #1 policy...Push what entertains Vince. I think we've seen, time and time again, that what he enjoys and what everyone else in the Goddamned world enjoys is almost mutually exclusive.

[Loose Cannon]

I wouldn't really say the WWE has hit an all-time low. Watch WWE 1994-1996 and that was pretty terrible. But that was a time when we (well I didn't at least) expect much as fans, so we just sort of accepted it. I think the product did take a nose dive after the Invasion, but has since picked up a little. We've seen a tremendous lot of new faces the past 2 years and they keep coming. One of thier main problems I think is that everything seems so rushed and forced these days. Not to mention the fact that nothing is really new and innovative anymore. We've seen everything and it's just repetition now and days.

I dunno, something has got to catch sooner or later.

[Mr. JL]

With the slowing down of the in-ring action and limiting of moves, I must say that I have noticed that it has been quite a while since there was a WWE wrestler who had to go under the knife for neck surgery.

Now, whether or not that is because of the dumbing down of the 'dangerous' moves, or the fact that the last two guys to get neck surgery (Test and Jesus), were promptly fired is another debate.

But yeah, besides the neck injuries (which are pretty serious) I have noticed that there are just as many broken arms, muscle tears, and knee injuries.

[Mr. JL]

I think the WWE product has some flashes of quality entertainment, as well as it's crap moment, and it will probably always be like that until the WWE hits another 'boom' period.

[Kane Knight]

With the slowing down of the in-ring action and limiting of moves, I must say that I have noticed that it has been quite a while since there was a WWE wrestler who had to go under the knife for neck surgery.

Now, whether or not that is because of the dumbing down of the 'dangerous' moves, or the fact that the last two guys to get neck surgery (Test and Jesus), were promptly fired is another debate.

But yeah, besides the neck injuries (which are pretty serious) I have noticed that there are just as many broken arms, muscle tears, and knee injuries.

The number of other injuries seems to be higher, so it seems to be levelling out.

[Kane Knight]

I think the WWE product has some flashes of quality entertainment, as well as it's crap moment, and it will probably always be like that until the WWE hits another 'boom' period.

God, the boom/bust argument is so stupid. The WWF didn't hit a boom period in the Attitude era, they actually put some real muscle behind their programming for the first time in nearly a decade. They got lucky and ran with a wildfire wrestler.

This isn't a "bust" period, this is the natural side effect of them ruining this era's Austin/Rock equivalents and working counterintutively.

[Batsu]

I wouldn't really say the WWE has hit an all-time low. Watch WWE 1994-1996 and that was pretty terrible. But that was a time when we (well I didn't at least) expect much as fans, so we just sort of accepted it. I think the product did take a nose dive after the Invasion, but has since picked up a little. We've seen a tremendous lot of new faces the past 2 years and they keep coming. One of thier main problems I think is that everything seems so rushed and forced these days. Not to mention the fact that nothing is really new and innovative anymore. We've seen everything and it's just repetition now and days.

I dunno, something has got to catch sooner or later.

Exactly. I enjoy the new faces like Cena, Orton, Shelton, and Carlito. Even Masters (IF he had a better finisher) would be cool. There is a lot of rushing, no consideration is given to the "slow burn" that made guys like Muhammad Hassan popular (because I really didn't like him OR that music at first until they got creative with the interruptions)>

[Batsu]

This isn't a "bust" period, this is the natural side effect of them ruining this era's Austin/Rock equivalents and working counterintutively.

DINGDINGDING.

Orton/Cena are the best shot for the future WWE has now, and they're being squandered. Edge seems primed to take over HHH's old role as Chief Asshole (which, since they relaunched him as that lame Rhino wanna be after coming back from injury "I ...DON'T LIKE...YOU!!!"), which is a fresh change of pace. They need to give him his Edgecution back (especially the "X-Pac" version), instead of using the spear. Cena's in-ring has declined, but he still has the charisma to piss people off or make them cheer. Orton has been one of the most entertaning in-ring since The Rock, and he has a better workrate and technical sense to boot. Orton Selling is the new Rock Selling. Out of the ring, if he's not heel drawing cheap heat, he needs work.

Carlito and others like Shelton seem to be putting forth an effort to make their matches eye-openers under WWE restriction.

and while HBK at times can be an unsympathetic figure, I think they really screwed up by not letting him go over Hogan. He's a great heel, and he should be working that role to put people over (he's been pretty good about that, esp. with Shelton, Kurt Angle, and Chris Jericho).

[Kane Knight]

Don't get me wrong, I don't feel bad for Michaels, but I certainly recognise that he should have gone over for the business' sake.

OTOH, it'd be nice to see someone who needed it get put over by Hogan, not the Rock and Michaels.

Shelton's had his bad moments, but he still manages to rock in and out of ring.

If they'd stop killing upcoming talent (Squashing them to 50 year olds) and start working with what they have naturally (rather than "making" them), they wouldn't be in this low.

[Batsu]

If they'd stop killing upcoming talent (Squashing them to 50 year olds) and start working with what they have naturally (rather than "making" them), they wouldn't be in this low.

WWE's biggest problem from day one.
Though it became even more apparent in the post-Hogan WWE, when they seemed adamant about not letting Hall and Nash not walk away with Razor and Diesel, even making "fake" versions that didn't last long. Like people weren't going to notice the difference (it's not like Doink, or a masked wrestler).... but think of all the examples where great wrestlers came to WWE, and they got saddled with a horrendous gimmick. The Red Rooster and Dean Douglas are some of the worst examples that come to mind. Then they turn around and bitch about WCW doing the same thing.

Razor and Diesel becoming "Hall and Nash" were the best things to happen to either one of their careers, and one reason why the nWo really took off in the beginning.

WWE has to date, not let another wrestler who was popular in another fed, that has the means to, remain popular in WWE unless, like with Stone Cold, it was inevitable. Chris Jericho, Booker T, Taz(z), the list goes on. Even guys widely considered legends like Mick Foley, and Steve Austin had to go through the "WWE made you" gauntlet in the beginning. It really was a problem when "homegrown" WWE guys like Christian went the extra mile to get himself over, then got buried. Imagine if that had happened to The Rock....

Someone has to put a barrier between Vince and the in-ring product. Every time Vince reboots and falls back on what he thinks is a better wrestling show, it ends up looking like crap. Not saying every wrestler should go out there and try to "Christian" themselves....not everyone can do that. But for those that have the power to, they should just let them go. For a guy who hollers up and down that kayfabe is over, there are sometimes where it's ridiculously enforced (canned studio response, creative editing).

If only Vince would accept his losses, and give a little, others will surely give back.

For example, there's no reason that in markets outside of the UK, why Vince can't just stop trying to retcon old footage in the Attitude era by taking out the "WWF" references. I refuse to buy any Attitude-era related DVDs that came after they got "The F" out, because of this reason. I just wish on one PPV, a wrestler about to be released would go on the mic and say "WWF! WWF! WWF!! WWF!!!" knowing it would be edited later. I would love to see a comprehensive Rock DVD, going back to his time as Rocky Maivia, through the era of "Rocky Sucks", the Nation, the Corporation, his babyface run, all the way to Hollywood Rock. But since a good portion of that came in a time where the term "WWF" was in vogue...it wouldn't seem right.

Vince lost that battle, but he doesn't have to be an asswipe about it. It even seems he showed signs of asswipery in that Bret Hart DVD (though I'm glad it was made; I'd have only added one thing to the collection, and that was the "Attitude" Bret -- some of which was seen in that Canada vs USA footage. Bret mouthing "Fuck you", giving the bird, being a jerk -- THAT was my favorite Bret Hart memories...)

going back to your comment about Hogan... has ANYONE been put over by Hogan that needed it? It seems the only one to whom he's jobbed in recent memory was The Rock. and The Rock can LOSE matches and still look good.

[Kane Knight]

The Rock is proof that losing matches doesn't stop you from being a legend, either, despite what the top talent all seem to think.

And no, he's never really put over a young star who needed it. Rocky was pretty much out the door at that time, or close to it.

[Me]

....that WWE has hit an all-time low? All time low? Clearly you weren't watching in '94...

[Skippord]

If they'd stop killing upcoming talent (Squashing them to 50 year olds) and start working with what they have naturally (rather than "making" them), they wouldn't be in this low.

WCW WCW WCW WCW WCW

[loopydate]

Why is it that Chris Benoit and Booker T, both former World Champions, must compete on the No. 2 belt for the SmackDown brand instead of gunning for Angle? Shouldn't Matt Hardy, or Orlando Jordan be feuding over it instead?

Honestly, I think the U.S. Title is probably the most entertaining title in WWE right now. There's practically a weekly match either for it or for a shot at it and, as a result, I feel like the guys who are fighting for the belt have really earned the opportunity.

Benoit and Booker had to go seven matches (the last few fought by Orton, sure) to decide the champion, and ***SMACKDOWN SPOILER*** to get another shot at the belt, Benoit had to beat three guys. ***END SPOILER***

Meanwhile, all you need to do to get a shot at the WWE Title is turn off the lights at the end of a PPV, come out on a chariot, and mime "belt." Bingo, you've got a PPV title shot. And to get the WM title shot, you don't even need to win the Royal Rumble. You just need to mock the dead.

Yeah, RAW is having a tournament to decide the World Title #1 contender, which is a step in the right direction, imo, but the result is practically a foregone conclusion. Does anyone honestly think that Chris Masters, Big Show, or Rob Van Dam will main-event WrestleMania 22? It would be much more suspenseful if guys like Shawn Michaels and Edge were involved in the tournament (and I mean for real, not the "mandatory retirement" bullshit).

The Cruiserweight Title is improving, as the Royal Rumble open challenge match showed. The Helms/Nunzio match from SD was also quite good, and I'm looking forward to Helms/Kash next week.

The WWE Tag Titles are also improving, but I think they're making a mistake including MNM in the main-event picture. They're quite talented and one of the most enjoyable things on SD right now, but with the stacked SmackDown tag team roster, they should be more involved with the Mexicools, Dicks, Gymini, Kendrick/London, etc, instead of Batista, Rey Mysterio, Kurt Angle, and The Undertaker. Hopefully this "open challenge" will give the division a shot in the arm.

The World Tag Team Titles are a joke. The only legitimate tag team on RAW just got released, and every other team has already been squashed by Kane and the Big Show. Something tells me they'll hold onto them until 3MW re-debuts.

Do they even have an Intercontinental Title? I'm really hoping that they pay off the Shelton/Flair face-to-face from RAW with Shelton going over Flair for the belt at Mania. Like mentioned before, this division needs to be built around Shelton, Carlito, and Masters just like it was built around Shawn Michaels and Razor Ramon from 1993-1995 and around Steve Austin and The Rock in the late 1990s. The IC belt is supposed to be a stepping stone for the next generation of World Champions.

The Women's Division has possibly the best "top three" right now, in that on any given night, I totally believe that either Trish, Mickie, or Victoria could walk away with the title. But can you imagine how much stronger this division would have been if they'd kept Molly Holly and Gail Kim instead of running two Diva Searches? I mean, with Trinity on the verge of an OVW call-up, that'd probably be the strongest Women's Division in U.S. wrestling history! Instead, we have Candice Michelle talking about a WrestleMania title shot. Disgusting.

So, that's a roundabout way of saying it, but the United States Title is probably my favorite title right now, because the list of challengers is incredibly deep, and each title or contender match really seems to mean something.

[Batsu]

So, that's a roundabout way of saying it, but the United States Title is probably my favorite title right now, because the list of challengers is incredibly deep, and each title or contender match really seems to mean something.

It is kind of funny that it is getting the most attention of all the championships. My only gripe is that they have two guys involved with it that are sort of like a step up from the talent that should be surrounding it. Kind of like when HHH won the IC belt during the "Power Trip" era. SmackDown has some guys (sorta like Shelton, Carlito and Masters) that should be squabbling over it, but even though they are somewhere in the hunt, it doesn't seem that way (except OJ).

[Batsu]

All time low? Clearly you weren't watching in '94...

Not really. I had written this real late at night, half-awake...it's just as bad as 1994, I think though. At the very least, ALMOST there. If it wasn't Bret Hart back then, I almost didn't really watch. I can't even remember if Razor was out yet, I think he was. He was one of the guys I liked back then.

[Me]

Not really. I had written this real late at night, half-awake...it's just as bad as 1994, I think though. At the very least, ALMOST there. If it wasn't Bret Hart back then, I almost didn't really watch. I can't even remember if Razor was out yet, I think he was. He was one of the guys I liked back then.
Just like then, today you have those select few outstanding technical wreslers; everything else is some shit gimmick.

Bret Hart- Angle (main event)
Razzor- Benoit (mid-card)

I'd say it almost as bad today though, just not quite.

[Y3J]

Opinionated people = Long posts

[Batsu]

Just like then, today you have those select few outstanding technical wreslers; everything else is some shit gimmick.

Bret Hart- Angle (main event)
Razzor- Benoit (mid-card)

I'd say it almost as bad today though, just not quite.

Well, not only that, but Razor (the gimmick) was hilarious....Scott Hall made that work so well. He is very underrated -- liked him best out of the nWo.

[Corkscrewed]

In short, the WWE's current woes stems from forcing the interests of a concentrated few rather than thinking out and implementing actual, logical, non-self-destructive longterm solutions that make sense and generate sustained interest.

[owenbrown]

In short, the WWE's current woes stems from forcing the interests of a concentrated few rather than thinking out and implementing actual, logical, non-self-destructive longterm solutions that make sense and generate sustained interest.

"concentrated few" meaning Mr. Stephanie Mcmahon(HHH) vs. the Field (the locker room) with him stacking the deck against them. :shifty: and then that non-working mofo The Undertaker being off TV for 4 months and then getting a WORLD TITLE SHOT?! C'mon :wtf: .... and don't get me started on the Randy Orton/Rey Mysterio angle surrounded around Eddie Guerrero's death. Fucking Pathetic. :rant: :mad: :nono: WWE needs to stop half-assing around their product before we all get fed up and switch to the competition(or lack thereof) in droves. :shifty:

[Kane Knight]

No, it's not jsut HHH.

Vince is another clear factor, nnot to mention others with access to creative control.

Vince is probably the leading factor, as he's been said to have really enjoyed the Eddie segments and have been behind him. What with Katie Vick and similar, it's no doubt he's behind Jillian and the Midget and the Boogeyman...