Who is this Kenta?

[BigDaddyCool]

Who is this Kenta and why do we care if CM Puke is ripping him off?

[Theo Dious]

I think he's like some sort of 4 foot Japanese cruiserwieght that a lot of smarks like to fellate.

[IC Champion]

Yea he's just a little guy, hes done some work in ROH.

[CSL]

I think he's like some sort of 4 foot Japanese cruiserwieght that a lot of smarks like to fellate.

<font color=white>So ya never seen him wrestle then?

He's pretty frickin' good.</font>

[Theo Dious]

If he's the guy I'm thinking of, I saw a few clips of him. He's good at what he does, not too special overall really.

[Xero]

I've heard he works a stiff style.

[BigDaddyCool]

<font color=white>So ya never seen him wrestle then?

He's pretty frickin' good.</font>

According the IWC and smarks, every indy cruiserwieght is good.

[Theo Dious]

I've heard he works a stiff style.

So he's an Asian cruiser that has an arsenal of impressive moves who works stiff. Just like about 1,000 other Asian cruisers.

[Xero]

According the IWC and smarks, every indy cruiserwieght is good.
According to the IWC, if you've never worked for WWE or TNA you're a God.

[Theo Dious]

Yeah, notice that you never find someone with a bad word to say about Sting.

[BigDaddyCool]

Yeah, notice that you never find someone with a bad word to say about Sting.

Sting sucks. Never liked him.

[Theo Dious]

No offense buddy but you'd slam Ghandi if the situation called for it.

[BigDaddyCool]

No offense buddy but you'd slam Ghandi if the situation called for it.

Ghandi was a hypocrit. He refused to use violence so all the Indians got their asses kicked for salt.

[BigDaddyCool]

Yeah, I'm a devil's advocate. Someone needs to be, you can't just go around blindly agreeing with what society has said is so.

[Stickman]

He's probably some indy guy who will never make it big that only a handful of cult followers know.

[CSL]

<font color=white>Check out his tag stuff with Marufuji and his GHC title match (also against Marufuji) from last year.</font>

[CSL]

He's probably some indy guy who will never make it big that only a handful of cult followers know.

<font color=white>I'd call being one of the top names in Japan 'making it big' dude. On a wrestling front anyway.</font>

[Theo Dious]

Okay now you're just making up names.

[CSL]

lol

[Stickman]

<font color=white>I'd call being one of the top names in Japan 'making it big' dude. On a wrestling front anyway.</font>

What is this "Japan" you speak of?

[Theo Dious]

What is this "Japan" you speak of?

It's kind of like TNA except that they have a government.

[Theo Dious]

Oh and back at the end of WW2 Hunter Hearst Harry (Truman) nuked them to hold down their talent.

[St. Jimmy]

Jim Rice: BAH GAWD, DA TWIPPLE H JUSH DROPPED DA ATOMIC PEDAGWEE! DA SMODERING WUBBLE AIN'T MADE OF FWIEDDDDDDDDDDDDD WICEEEEEEEEEE!

[The One]

It was after viewing Kenta vs. Samoa Joe that I realized that I hate Japan, I hate RoH, and I hate every single smart mark who thinks they're insider and bad ass for liking people who aren't big or popular.

[FourFifty]

This is KENTA

<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/S10ndcvZLxM"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/S10ndcvZLxM" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>

[Theo Dious]

It was after viewing Kenta vs. Samoa Joe that I realized that I hate Japan, I hate RoH, and I hate every single smart mark who thinks they're insider and bad ass for liking people who aren't big or popular.

It was after reading this post that I realized that I love you and wish you were a little white woman.

[The One]

Hi, I'm a guy who spent most of his career in Japan and/or Mexico. I'm made out to be a big deal by indie companies who don't want to dish out actual money for actual name stars. People gizz their pants for me because I can do a stiff style of working. I'm never going to amount to anything, because as soon as you put me on a national stage I will be exposed as someone with next to no actual skill.

Who am I talking about...Kenta...Low Ki...Bryan Danielson...Samoa Joe...etc. etc.

[Theo Dious]

Who am I talking about...Kenta...Low Ki...Bryan Danielson...Samoa Joe...etc. etc.

Ultimo Dragon... *braces for the flame*

[chrisat928]

I can't think of any Japanese wrestlers who have become stars in America, are there any?

[Theo Dious]

Taijiri

[Theo Dious]

Yokozuna

[Theo Dious]

Mr Fuji

[Theo Dious]

Funaki

[The One]

LOL, ok so random memory here, but for you old fellas around here, anyone remember when before Tajiri came to WWE everyone swore he was going to change the face of wrestling. LOL. What is it about guys from Japan that makes smart marks want to jump on their dicks? Is it because Jericho and Benoit came from Japan so everyone is looking or the next guy to gush for and say they've been a fan of his since way back when or what's the fucking deal?

[BigDaddyCool]

It was after viewing Kenta vs. Samoa Joe that I realized that I hate Japan, I hate RoH, and I hate every single smart mark who thinks they're insider and bad ass for liking people who aren't big or popular.

I didn't need to see any thing to know that about Indy wrestling. I just apply my knowledge that any indy genre is pretty much the same. There are a few true gems, but everything else sucks and can't make it mainstream so they pass themselves off as indy and better than the mainstream. And indy fans tend to think they are elitiest because they like things that no one else has heard of and on extereme occasions, they did like a gem and they can go around and say, "I like X before they were popular."

[chrisat928]

First of all, I'm pretty sure Yokozuna was Samoan.
About the other's, OK I'm an idiot.

[The One]

I didn't need to see any thing to know that about Indy wrestling. I just apply my knowledge that any indy genre is pretty much the same. There are a few true gems, but everything else sucks and can't make it mainstream so they pass themselves off as indy and better than the mainstream. And indy fans tend to think they are elitiest because they like things that no one else has heard of and on extereme occasions, they did like a gem and they can go around and say, "I like X before they were popular."

Yeah that's all good and whatever, but I liked the New Kids On The Block back when they were the Old Kids On Their Original Block. :D

[PepperCarrotMan]

This thread reminds me that I miss Akio and Sakoda.

I dont like Wang Yang's gimmick.

[Stickman]

Oh, and about the part of Punk stealing this douchbag's move. Are you kididng, this is wrestling, everything is stolen from somebody.

[FourFifty]

Yokozuna

That was a joke, right? :|

[Xero]

The second Kenta (if he) shows up in WWE...

Random IWC Smark: OMFG KENTA SUCKS! FUCKING SELLOUT! OMFG I'M GONNA GO FIND A MATCH THAT MAYBE FIVE PEOPLE HAVE SEEN AND BECOME A MARK FOR WHOEVER IS IN IT BECAUSE IT IS UNKNOWN AND THAT WILL MAKE ME HARDCOREZZZZ!

[Linkbowler]

This is KENTA

Just curious, why do people put this guy's name in all caps? I've noticed it with Kenta and Taka Michinoku, and I just don't get it.

[Destor]

KENTA is the best worker n the world today, bar none.

[Xero]

NASH > KENTA

[Destor]

Oh, and about the part of Punk stealing this douchbag's move. Are you kididng, this is wrestling, everything is stolen from somebody.Except for the people who invent things.

[Destor]

NASH > KENTANash dont even work any more "brah."

[Xero]

I hope the G2S becomes as common as the Powerbomb.

[Xero]

Nash dont even work any more "brah."
First, technically he does. Secondly, I was referring more to the caps "brah".

[The One]

The second Kenta (if he) shows up in WWE...

Random IWC Smark: OMFG KENTA SUCKS! FUCKING SELLOUT! OMFG I'M GONNA GO FIND A MATCH THAT MAYBE FIVE PEOPLE HAVE SEEN AND BECOME A MARK FOR WHOEVER IS IN IT BECAUSE IT IS UNKNOWN AND THAT WILL MAKE ME HARDCOREZZZZ!

No it's more like we get to sit through 18 different ideas of how WWE should use them, and then the inevitable 30,000 threads on how WWE has no clue how to push talent, and they rushed this, fucked up this, and ruined the career of [Insert IWC Flavor of the Month here].

[Destor]

First, technically he does. Secondly, I was referring more to the caps "brah".I could care less about technicalities. Whens the last time Nash worker? WWE? Has he ever worked in TNA?

[Destor]

And even then Nash has always been a terrible worker.

[Xero]

He's worked in TNA, lol.

Don't know about now, but I consider anyone on-screen 'working'.

[Destor]

No it's more like we get to sit through 18 different ideas of how WWE should use them, and then the inevitable 30,000 threads on how WWE has no clue how to push talent, and they rushed this, fucked up this, and ruined the career of [Insert IWC Flavor of the Month here].KENTA would never get over in Mainstream America, the notion is doomed for failure.

[The Fugitive]

Geez, I really wish I could tell if some of you guys were serious in what you were saying or just trying to be controversial. :|

[The One]

KENTA is the best worker n the world today, bar none.

MICHAELS > NASH doing skits > JBL's commentary > FLAIR's random matches > HUNTER's recovery > HALL's drinking > KIP JAMES feuding with Christy Hemie > WALTMAN's...uh...whatever > Kenta

[Destor]

He's worked in TNA, lol.

Don't know about now, but I consider anyone on-screen 'working'.Then you should familiarize your self with what working means in wrestling. I.E. to work a match.

Is he going to work? Yeah, but clearly nort what I mean.

[Stickman]

Except for the people who invent things.

Well of course, somebody has to invent the move but if people didn't steal moves, wrestling would be pretty boring. I mean, the WWE is already boring, somebody invented chops, arm drags, and hip tosses, so if those weren't being coppied the matches would involve standing there not moving.

[Xero]

Geez, I really wish I could tell if some of you guys were serious in what you were saying or just trying to be controversial. :|

Well, it's absolutely true that EVERY worker EVER is either over hyped or under hyped by the IWC.

[Destor]

MICHAELS > NASH doing skits > JBL's commentary > FLAIR's random matches > HUNTER's recovery > HALL's drinking > KIP JAMES feuding with Christy Hemie > WALTMAN's...uh...whatever > KentaNo, none of them can out work KENTA. And that's all I'm talking about, how hard/well KENTA works. Are there things more entertaining, yes. Can any wrestler in the world today out work KENTA? Not in my opinion.

[The One]

And even then Nash has always been a terrible worker.

I'm shocked to hear such horrible lies coming from the mouth of a Kliq Member. :'( Say it ain't so!

[The One]

Geez, I really wish I could tell if some of you guys were serious in what you were saying or just trying to be controversial. :|

Me being dead serious seems to be controversial enough, I don't need to try to be it. :p

[Destor]

Well of course, somebody has to invent the move but if people didn't steal moves, wrestling would be pretty boring. I mean, the WWE is already boring, somebody invented chops, arm drags, and hip tosses, so if those weren't being coppied the matches would involve standing there not moving.You're stupid. It's one thing to take a move from someone who isn't in the buinessis anymore or real wrestling holds (which covers evewrything you listed) it's another to steal a mans bit. That would be like Ric Flair in '88 coming out in red and yellow trying to get Flair-a-mania over. Unless it was a jioke it's shitty. Just because you all don't know the guy getting fucked you dont care, and thats the problem.

[The One]

Can any wrestler in the world today out work KENTA?

MICHAELS. End of discussion.

[Destor]

I'm shocked to hear such horrible lies coming from the mouth of a Kliq Member. :'( Say it ain't so!Dude he makes up for it by enteraining, having charisma, on the stick, etc. Not by his in ring work.

[Destor]

MICHAELS. End of discussion.I disagree.

[Xero]

You're stupid. It's one thing to take a move from someone who isn't in the buinessis real wrestling holds (which covers evewrything you listed) it's another to steal a mans bit. That would be like Ric Flair in '88 coming out in red and yellow trying to get Flair-a-mania over. Unless it was a jioke it's shitty. Just because you all don't know the guy getting fucked you dont care, and thats the problem.
Isn't Flair just the modern day version of Gorgeous George?

[The Fugitive]

Well of course, somebody has to invent the move but if people didn't steal moves, wrestling would be pretty boring. I mean, the WWE is already boring, somebody invented chops, arm drags, and hip tosses, so if those weren't being coppied the matches would involve standing there not moving.

There's a big difference though. Triple H doing an Harley Race high knee. That doesn't take away away from Harley, because it's a tribute.

Doing an independent wrestler's 'unique' move is a different story. Let me use Destor for an example, he takes a leglock and he modifies it in a way that it's considered a unique move and his trademark. If Wrestler X from WWE sees it, starts performing it and it starts to get over with the WWE audience, the move is no longer going to be associated with Destor, who created it, it's going to be associated who made it popular to the casual fan. Then the next week when Destor goes and performs this move on the circuit, if a WWE fan happens to see it, he's going to say 'Pfft, they ripped that off Wrestler X' and he's going to be seen as a rip-off.

Do you see where I'm going with this?

[The One]

You're stupid. It's one thing to take a move from someone who isn't in the buinessis real wrestling holds (which covers evewrything you listed) it's another to steal a mans bit. That would be like Ric Flair in '88 coming out in red and yellow trying to get Flair-a-mania over. Unless it was a jioke it's shitty. Just because you all don't know the guy getting fucked you dont care, and thats the problem.

OK Desty, I gotta call you on this one. You're telling me that people shouldn't use a finishing move of someone from another promotion? I mean to rip off an entire gimmick like Hulkamania, yeah that's a bit much, but to take someone else's move...that happens every day. Big name stars on the national scene taking indy guy's finishing moves happen even more commonly. It's not a terrible thing, it's a part of business. When Booker T started calling himself "The Book" in WCW and using the BookEnd (Rock Bottom) did people call bullshit? Yeah, they pointed out he obviously stole it, and then moved on and no one cared anymore. CM Punk is taking this move (not even a great move at that) and using it for his own. It's not like him using it is somehow damaging Kenta using it, because people who watch Kenta knew he did it frist, and people not watching him don't give a fuck who invented the move so long as the guy they know (Punk) continues to use it.

[Destor]

Isn't Flair just the modern day version of Gorgeous George?Read my statement, someon who isn't in the buisness any more, at that point the guy isn't trying to make a dime off of it anymore and it becomes fair game. Until that happens it shitty. How would you like if you were a indy guy, and all of a sudden a WWE steals your ewntire move set? WOuldn't that suck? Everyone who sees you says "hey, get your own shit, THAT SNITSKYS!" WOuldn't that suck? Having to start over? But hey, it's just some indy guy.

[The One]

Dude he makes up for it by enteraining, having charisma, on the stick, etc. Not by his in ring work.

Agreed. He is someone who you get your money's worth before the bell sounds, but even then, as far as a big man goes, he is probably one of the best in the ring. Not in terms of moves, but he has great psych and knows how to pace things.

[The Fugitive]

Me being dead serious seems to be controversial enough, I don't need to try to be it. :p

I actually had you in mind when I said that, especially after your 'Hi, I'm an independent wrestler from...' comment. That reeked of bitterness.

[Destor]

OK Desty, I gotta call you on this one. You're telling me that people shouldn't use a finishing move of someone from another promotion? I mean to rip off an entire gimmick like Hulkamania, yeah that's a bit much, but to take someone else's move...that happens every day. Big name stars on the national scene taking indy guy's finishing moves happen even more commonly. It's not a terrible thing, it's a part of business. When Booker T started calling himself "The Book" in WCW and using the BookEnd (Rock Bottom) did people call bullshit? Yeah, they pointed out he obviously stole it, and then moved on and no one cared anymore. CM Punk is taking this move (not even a great move at that) and using it for his own. It's not like him using it is somehow damaging Kenta using it, because people who watch Kenta knew he did it frist, and people not watching him don't give a fuck who invented the move so long as the guy they know (Punk) continues to use it.Rape hapens every day. We should just let it slide, cause it's so common. And hey, if we do I bet people stop saying anything about after awhile, and just accept it as the norm.

[Xero]

Does it really MATTER who invented it? Shouldn't it matter that the move was used in a way to elevate someone?

Of course not, because all that matters is that some overhyped jerkoff in the indies or Japan who invented it and has no chance in the WWE isn't going to be credited for the move.

Let's assume he's never going to make it to a big platform in the US. What difference will it make if Punk or Bobby Lashley uses it?

[Destor]

Agreed. He is someone who you get your money's worth before the bell sounds, but even then, as far as a big man goes, he is probably one of the best in the ring. Not in terms of moves, but he has great psych and knows how to pace things.Def.

[BigDaddyCool]

Oh, and about the part of Punk stealing this douchbag's move. Are you kididng, this is wrestling, everything is stolen from somebody.

Yeah, I'm not faulting him for it. I was just asking why do we care? It isn't like people are up in arms about Jeff Jarrett completely ripping of Ric Flair or Beniot copying Dynimite's style.

[Destor]

Does it really MATTER who invented it? Shouldn't it matter that the move was used in a way to elevate someone?

Of course not, because all that matters is that some overhyped jerkoff in the indies or Japan who invented it and has no chance in the WWE isn't going to be credited for the move.

Let's assume he's never going to make it to a big platform in the US. What difference will it make if Punk or Bobby Lashley uses it?Well he is trying to move over to the US more so that an unfair thing to assume. I wouldn't want some pimple face kid givign me flack about how I'm theif when I MADE IT MYSELF.

It's shitty, an independant contractor can only get work if he is unique, and Punk very could detract from his individuality.

[Destor]

Yeah, I'm not faulting him for it. I was just asking why do we care? It isn't like people are up in arms about Jeff Jarrett completely ripping of Ric Flair or Beniot copying Dynimite's style.Both were legends by that point, how you all cant make that destinction is annoying.

[The One]

I actually had you in mind when I said that, especially after your 'Hi, I'm an independent wrestler from...' comment. That reeked of bitterness.

Bitterness? No. Just bored and tired of hearing people cream over these worthless pieces of shit who can get a small little group of RoH marks to chant "This is Awesome!" or whatever their chants are.

[The One]

Rape hapens every day. We should just let it slide, cause it's so common. And hey, if we do I bet people stop saying anything about after awhile, and just accept it as the norm.

Stealing a Wrestling Move = Rape

Way to take this to insane extremes to service your side of the argument.

[Destor]

No prob.

[Destor]

Stealing a Wrestling Move = Rape

Way to take this to insane extremes to service your side of the argument.You do see how that is a cop out though? "it's ok bacuase it's common." A lot of things aren't ok that are common.

[CSL]

Just curious, why do people put this guy's name in all caps? I've noticed it with Kenta and Taka Michinoku, and I just don't get it.

<font color=white>'Cause his full name is Kenta Kobayashi. Which is strikingly similar to Kenta Kobashi only:

http://www.noah.puroresufan.com/images/kenta.jpg
KENTA

http://noah.puroresufan.com/images/kobashi.jpg
Kenta

Ya dig?</font>

[The One]

Both were legends by that point, how you all cant make that destinction is annoying.

The Figure Four, The Ace Crusher, The Chokeslam, The Sharpshooter, I could go on...but those were/are all used (either the EXACT same or slight modifications) by countless people. Does it make it less impactful? Are we so stuck in a semi-state of kayfabe that we are required to believe that only one person who invented the move knows how to execute it? He's using a freakin' fireman's carry to a knee to the face. It's not the end of the world. Guess what, he also use to use the Pedigree off the top rope. Did Triple H shrivle up and die? No. Did people on the indy circut even give a shit that he used HHH's move? No. This is not theft, this is using a move in a scripted fight.

God, I wonder if sometimes really big name stars on the dance or ice skating or whatever performance thing you'd like to compare it to get pissy if they see someone else do their dance move. FUCK MICHAEL JACKSON FOR STEALING THE MOON WALK! FUCK HIM!

[Xero]

I'm sure people loved it when Punk used the Pedigree.

[IC Champion]

If he's so good why does he mostly wreslte infront 400 people.

[The One]

You do see how that is a cop out though? "it's ok bacuase it's common." A lot of things aren't ok that are common.

Common doesn't mean it's right, but on something as trivial as this, it means you should untwist the panties and get over it. Other examples; Smoking pot is so common if you feel offended or inclinded to make legal action of it, you deserve a swift kick to the balls. Speeding down the highway...legal...no...but who gives a shit. And these are actual LAWS that are being broken, not just using someone's move.

And does anyone realize how dumb that sounds? "Using Someone's Move." As though they were the first person to move in that physical way so no one else can touch it. God I hope the guy who invented walking is screaming at all of us from beyond the grave right now.

[IC Champion]

If wrestlers didnt use another wreslters move we'd be left 5 moves.

[chrisat928]

WWE won't let Punk do the Pepsi Plunge because it's to dangerous.

[Destor]

The Figure Four, The Ace Crusher, The Chokeslam, The Sharpshooter, I could go on...but those were/are all used (either the EXACT same or slight modifications) by countless people. Does it make it less impactful? Are we so stuck in a semi-state of kayfabe that we are required to believe that only one person who invented the move knows how to execute it? He's using a freakin' fireman's carry to a knee to the face. It's not the end of the world. Guess what, he also use to use the Pedigree off the top rope. Did Triple H shrivle up and die? No. Did people on the indy circut even give a shit that he used HHH's move? No. This is not theft, this is using a move in a scripted fight.

God, I wonder if sometimes really big name stars on the dance or ice skating or whatever performance thing you'd like to compare it to get pissy if they see someone else do their dance move. FUCK MICHAEL JACKSON FOR STEALING THE MOON WALK! FUCK HIM!Let's not forget that not only has he stolen this move from KENTA, but others as well.

Now you, as a former worker yourself, how can you cast this off so easily? If this were you, and Punk started going threw your move-set wouldn't you be offended?

How many guys have a made a name for themselves off the back off a move? Off the back of a new and unique move that no one has seen before? COuntless workers? Is it fair to deprive KENTA of this option, this possible gimmick? Is that right?

WOuld you sit quite if it were done to a worker you know?'

And as far as that bullshit with the pedigree goes, how can you not see the problem? EVERYONE has seen the pedigree done by H. He's established that as HIS move. KENTA hasn't had that opportunity, and until he had it isn't right for a guy to come along and take as his own.

At least they're calling it the G2S though. SO I can pretend this is a homage like the Plunge was.

[Destor]

If he's so good why does he mostly wreslte infront 400 people.What?

[The One]

I can even understand one wrestler not using another wrestler's finishing move if they work or the same company, but if it's a rival company, or even if it's a company that isn't even in the same league, they should limit their move set to make other people "looking good"...despite my belief that no one actually looks bad if moves are done by more than one person (other than the person who doesn't do the move as well as the other guy).

[CSL]

If he's so good why does he mostly wreslte infront 400 people.

:wtf:

[IC Champion]

What?
KENTA

[Destor]

Common doesn't mean it's right, but on something as trivial as this, it means you should untwist the panties and get over it. Other examples; Smoking pot is so common if you feel offended or inclinded to make legal action of it, you deserve a swift kick to the balls. Speeding down the highway...legal...no...but who gives a shit. And these are actual LAWS that are being broken, not just using someone's move.

And does anyone realize how dumb that sounds? "Using Someone's Move." As though they were the first person to move in that physical way so no one else can touch it. God I hope the guy who invented walking is screaming at all of us from beyond the grave right now.No, I wont untwist my panites. This could very easily be me getting my shit copped and pasted. I wont sit here and act like I dont care. It's bullshit, Punk should, I dunno, think of something for himself for once? How about that. Come up with something on his own? That'd be novel.

[Destor]

KENTACheck your facts genious.

[The Fugitive]

Bitterness? No. Just bored and tired of hearing people cream over these worthless pieces of shit who can get a small little group of RoH marks to chant "This is Awesome!" or whatever their chants are.

Right, answer me this. If these guys are so useless, how come they've got recognition, they're wrestling regularly and they're actually getting paid to wrestle instead of telling the promoter 'Hey, I'll be happy to work for free!'?

They must be doing something right, they must be doing something that makes people give a damn about them opposed to Joe Blow who wrestles in a gym in Bumfuck, Idaho who is doing the exact same thing.

By the way, the reason I mentioned bitterness is because I got the impression as I was reading that whole thing of 'I'm resentful towards anyone on the independent circuit or overseas who is actually known to the IWC and meanwhile my entire career, I was stuck in obscurity and people were more concerned with scratching my balls than watching my matches.' Of course, I don't know anything about your career but that was my gut feeling.

[Destor]

I can even understand one wrestler not using another wrestler's finishing move if they work or the same company, but if it's a rival company, or even if it's a company that isn't even in the same league, they should limit their move set to make other people "looking good"...despite my belief that no one actually looks bad if moves are done by more than one person (other than the person who doesn't do the move as well as the other guy).What about honor? What about the issue of people calling KENTA a thief, when he damn well isn't. DOn't matter huh? Cause they're wong and all, well I don't know about you but it's shitty of someone put a guy through that. But hey, it's just some indy guy.

[IC Champion]

Check your facts genious.
It always looks like he is, but thats just because its Japan, and their wrestling just seems second rate in the way its presented. I am however a fan of Mr. Kobashi.

[Destor]

You people have me flustered that you would put my paychecks in jeopardy under the guise that "it doesn't matter." I'm out for now.

[CSL]

WWE won't let Punk do the Pepsi Plunge because it's to dangerous.

<font color=white>If the ring was in space and Punk did the Plunge and nobody hit the floor and everything just...floated, WWE still wouldn't let Punk do it. What you meant to say was:

HHH won't let Punk do the Pepsi Plunge because it's to his.

:y:

[The One]

Let's not forget that not only has he stolen this move from KENTA, but others as well.

Now you, as a former worker yourself, how can you cast this off so easily? If this were you, and Punk started going threw your move-set wouldn't you be offended?

How many guys have a made a name for themselves off the back off a move? Off the back of a new and unique move that no one has seen before? COuntless workers? Is it fair to deprive KENTA of this option, this possible gimmick? Is that right?

WOuld you sit quite if it were done to a worker you know?'

And as far as that bullshit with the pedigree goes, how can you not see the problem? EVERYONE has seen the pedigree done by H. He's established that as HIS move. KENTA hasn't had that opportunity, and until he had it isn't right for a guy to come along and take as his own.

At least they're calling it the G2S though. SO I can pretend this is a homage like the Plunge was.

My finishing moves while I was a wrestler: Superkick, Sharp Shooter & Shooting Star Press. I really only picked those moves too because of my height it was impressive to see me kick the chins of guys who were a good half foot taller than me (plus it's an easy finish), the Sharp Shooter I did because this one booker made me, and the SSP I did because it's a damn nice flashy move to finish off with. I'm sorry, but I don't think someone can "steal" a move. If you're livelyhood is based off the performance of a single move, you aren't much a wrestler. Besides, as you've pointed out, Kenta will never get over to a large American Audience, and his fallowing in Japan is in no way threatened by Punk. Sure some people can take moves and make them into someone great (Mandible Claw = Mr. Socko, Elbow Drop = People's Elbow) but even there, it was the character that sold the move. The move itself is nothing. If someone is threatened by another wrestler performing a move that they either innovated or have been using for an extended period of time, than that wrestler needs to lose the skirt.

[The Fugitive]

Hold on one second, explain to me exactly how you feel that wrestling in Japan seem second-rate.

[IC Champion]

Hold on one second, explain to me exactly how you feel that wrestling in Japan seem second-rate.
The wrestling itself is not second-rate, I said it seems that way in the how its presented.

[CSL]

Hold on one second, explain to me exactly how you feel that wrestling in Japan seem second-rate.

<font color=white>"'Cause they don't speak english."</font>

[Stickman]

And as far as that bullshit with the pedigree goes, how can you not see the problem? EVERYONE has seen the pedigree done by H. He's established that as HIS move. KENTA hasn't had that opportunity, and until he had it isn't right for a guy to come along and take as his own.

.

It's not Punk's fault/problem that KENTA isn't exposed to the masses. You're saying he should wait until KENTA is able to establish the move as his to the world. If KENTA never gets big, Punk should not be allowed?

[The Fugitive]

The wrestling itself is not second-rate, I said it seems that way in the how its presented.

And I want to know why you view it like that. Because of the audience? Because of the atmosphere? How exactly is it presented that makes you feel it's second rate.

I'm going to pretend I didn't read your comment, CSL, whether it was a joke or not.

[CSL]

I'm going to pretend I didn't read your comment, CSL, whether it was a joke or not.

<font color=white>I was pointing out that this would be the probable answer.</font>

[The One]

Right, answer me this. If these guys are so useless, how come they've got recognition, they're wrestling regularly and they're actually getting paid to wrestle instead of telling the promoter 'Hey, I'll be happy to work for free!'?

They must be doing something right, they must be doing something that makes people give a damn about them opposed to Joe Blow who wrestles in a gym in Bumfuck, Idaho who is doing the exact same thing.

By the way, the reason I mentioned bitterness is because I got the impression as I was reading that whole thing of 'I'm resentful towards anyone on the independent circuit or overseas who is actually known to the IWC and meanwhile my entire career, I was stuck in obscurity and people were more concerned with scratching my balls than watching my matches.' Of course, I don't know anything about your career but that was my gut feeling.

LOL. My "career" was a little over a year. I got a fan base, I toured around several states. I did quite well for someone who was only 18 at the time. I was a little guy who agreed to get worked over really rough, and as a result, a few too many guys didn't know what they were doing and after a serious knee injury, I decided I simply didn't want to go back. Trust me when I say I have no regrets about either getting in or getting out and I have no resentment towards others.

I hate elietest bullshit. That's what makes me resentful. People who think that because they like ____ and it's "underground" their taste is somehow better than the guy who likes what popular. When the IWC blows it load for guys like Joe, Punk, Kenta, Danielson, etc...and then other people out of interest look into them and find them to be boring or bland they are called idiots with no taste and no appreciation for skill. When they get on national stages and don't go over, the company is blamed. Or if they get on the national stage and are acceepted, they are "sell outs." That's the kind of shit I hate and find annoying. Hell there are a lot of good workers on the indy scene right now, some of them will be tomorrow's biggest names, most will not. I can tell you right now, Kenta will not.

[The Fugitive]

I was pointing out that this would be the probable answer.

Perhaps, but it's a extremely stupid reason to view it as second-rate. I don't view foreign films as second-rate, just because I can't understand what's being said. If it grips me and entertains me, then it's doing it's job.

On a unrelated note, I find it amusing that we have identical post counts... well, at least until I submit this reply.

[CSL]

Perhaps, but it's a extremely stupid reason to view it as second-rate. I don't view foreign films as second-rate, just because I can't understand what's being said. If it grips me and entertains me, then it's doing it's job.

On a unrelated note, I find it amusing that we have identical post counts... well, at least until I submit this reply.

<font color=white>Ties it up.</font>

[The One]

For some who is a fan of American style pro wrestling (myself being in that group) it would be very easy to label Japan wrestling as crap. It's a totally different kind of working. Equally so if you go to Mexico. It's just a different style. Some people have attempted to bring that Japan flavor to American soil with very little success, or any level of success it has enjoyed as been off the main stream market.

Plus, they don't speak English. And by the way, Foreign films are very much different from American films, and it has to do with how the story is told and who their target audience is. It's why foreign films don't do well. No personally, I love many foreign films, infact I would take an average movie rom Prague over the average LA movie in a heartbeat. But it doesn't change the fact that 97% of people don't give a flying fuck about it, nor do they ever want to give a flying fuck about it. Same goes for Japan wrestling...

And they don't speak English!

[The Fugitive]

Christ, you guys need to slow down so I can reply.

CSL, now we're not tied up anymore.

LOL. My "career" was a little over a year. I got a fan base, I toured around several states. I did quite well for someone who was only 18 at the time. I was a little guy who agreed to get worked over really rough, and as a result, a few too many guys didn't know what they were doing and after a serious knee injury, I decided I simply didn't want to go back. Trust me when I say I have no regrets about either getting in or getting out and I have no resentment towards others.

And so my gut feeling was wrong. If you got what you wanted out of wrestling and you enjoyed your time, then it was worthwhile. I apologize if I came off as attacking you but that's the vibe you gave me with that.

Sucks to hear about the knee injury.

I hate elietest bullshit. That's what makes me resentful. People who think that because they like ____ and it's "underground" their taste is somehow better than the guy who likes what popular. When the IWC blows it load for guys like Joe, Punk, Kenta, Danielson, etc...and then other people out of interest look into them and find them to be boring or bland they are called idiots with no taste and no appreciation for skill. When they get on national stages and don't go over, the company is blamed. Or if they get on the national stage and are acceepted, they are "sell outs." That's the kind of shit I hate and find annoying. Hell there are a lot of good workers on the indy scene right now, some of them will be tomorrow's biggest names, most will not. I can tell you right now, Kenta will not.

I should be really leaving this for the morning when I can think straight, but what the hell.

I see what you're saying, but I disagree with a few of your points.

By the same argument, when someone blows loads for old Ric Flair footage from the NWA and someone who hears about it, goes back, watches it and is let down, how do you think they feel and what do you think the hyper's reaction is when they're told it's boring? Pretty much the same thing you described above. The person who recommended it is accusing the person of having no appreciation for wrestling and the person who watched it views the other as 'stuck up' and elitist. It's all different tastes for different people, I'll never understand why some people don't get that.

As for the whole 'independent wrestler not getting over because of the company', my mind's a bit fuzzy due to lack of sleep but the only person off the top of my head who might go under that category is Frankie Kazarian and to be honest, anyone who said that was the company's fault is an idiot. Some wrestlers are just destined for the indies. While they look good on the circuit, they might not be able to fit in a company where they have to work a certain style so they appear bland. Now, if they were given a ridicilous gimmick, that's another story.

The whole "sellout" urks me as well, but it's uncommon nowadays. It's mostly "Hope he does really well and makes a mint". I can't think in recent memory when someone's gone "Did you hear that John Smith's leaving XYZ? After all those years here to go to WWE? What a cunt, I hope he gets stuck in OVW". Although, there's a lot of "You watch, 6 months from now, he's going to be IC champion and at Wrestlemania, he'll be WWE and the World Heavyweight Champion :D" and that's just being a huge mark for the wrestler.

Basically, I think while there's that group of people you describe out there, I think it's a very small minority and not one you should fret about and be resentful towards.

And I don't think anyone can debate that KENTA will one day be mentioned in the same breath as Stu Hart or Harley Race or Shawn Michaels, it's just not going to happen, but he'll probably be mentioned in the same breath as... you know what, I'm not even going to rattle off names because you'll just go 'Who?', am I right?

EDIT: Great, you added more for me to reply to. I'll get back to what you said later.

[The One]

If you plan on listing off Japan wrestlers who aren't Vader, yeah I wouldn't know or care. As for people who go back and watch Flair and are confused, I don't think they're stupid, I wonder what the fuck they were expecting. If you became a fan during the Attitude/TLC era, than yeah, the NWA will probably bore you to tears.

[Mr. Monday Morning]

It was after viewing Kenta vs. Samoa Joe that I realized that I hate Japan, I hate RoH, and I hate every single smart mark who thinks they're insider and bad ass for liking people who aren't big or popular.

That's ok, they hate you too.

The people you describe aren't especially great, but are they any worse than the people who completely dismiss anything that isn't WWE? Are they any worse than the people who constantly bemoan that same WWE and how the ratings are crap, and nobody likes Cena, and 'OMG I can't believe how bad their booking is, it was so much better in 2000' but absolutely refuse to seek an alternative, or to stop watching altogether?

ANYBODY who makes broad generalisations about ANYTHING ("WWE sucks!" "Indy wrestling sucks!" "Cena sucks!" "I'm better than you because I like Billy Gunn!") is a fucking idiot.

I love how people on here think they are edgy and cool when they criticise 'the IWC' and 'smarks' when just by being here they are exactly what they think they're criticising.

-edit- in about 5 years KENTA will be at the top of what is at the moment the #1 promotion in Japan, so yeah he's going places.

[Theo Dious]

<font color=white>"'Cause they don't speak english."</font>

And they all look the same.

[Super V]

All honesty I realy don't understand this whole Japanese wrestling fad that smart marks have been fellating. All that hype they made for Samoa Joe vs. Kenta, and it was nothing but the two of them chopping each other back and forth for like an hour. And this smaller Kenta that's out now isn't much better. He's a Japanese cruiserweight that chops and kicks hard. No different than Kaz Hayashi from WCW.

[Theo Dious]

That was a joke, right? :|

First of all, I'm pretty sure Yokozuna was Samoan.

Oh please. You think they'd have given him a Japanese manager, a Japanese flag, a Japanese theme song, and an anti-US/pro Japan gimmick if he WASN'T really Japanese? What kins of hacks do you think were working in the WWF back hten? Christ, next thing you're going to tell me wrestling is fake!

[Theo Dious]

-edit- in about 5 years KENTA will be at the top of what is at the moment the #1 promotion in Japan, so yeah he's going places.

Yeah, good for him. That's kind of like being the king of Lichtenstein. You get a lot of props at home, but nobody outside the borders gives a damn.

[BigDaddyCool]

Oh please. You think they'd have given him a Japanese manager, a Japanese flag, a Japanese theme song, and an anti-US/pro Japan gimmick if he WASN'T really Japanese? What kins of hacks do you think were working in the WWF back hten? Christ, next thing you're going to tell me wrestling is fake!

It's still really to me, damnit? :?:

[Mr. Monday Morning]

Yeah, good for him. That's kind of like being the king of Lichtenstein. You get a lot of props at home, but nobody outside the borders gives a damn.

In 5 years the internet will have turned the whole planet into one giant country, so you're wrong there.

[What Would Kevin Do?]

Out of all the cards WWE runs a year, house shows, ppvs, and anything else, I would argue not even 20% of them are better than what ROH/NOAH/Dragon Gate put on a year.

Fuck, 20% of what WWE does now isn't better than what they did in the Attitude era.

Here's the thing. If you don't like the ROH style, the Chikara style, the NOAH style, the NJPW style, the Dragon Gate style, AJPW style, etc, then good for you. And yes, all of those styles are different (although AJPW and NOAH are close.)

Don't however try to blindly bash them when you really have no fucking clue what you're talking about. If you've only seen a handful of ROH matches, or a handful of Japanese matches, then shut the fuck up. And don't try to act like fans of them are some elitist sub group of the IWC just because they actually prefer something other than WWE and are willing to say "Hey, these people put on better shows that I find more entertaining than WWE, so I will talk about this instead."

WWE cannot book one consistently good show to save it's ass, let alone a month of good shows.

So far, I've yet to be watching ROH, or any Japanese fed and go "Man, I feel embarrassed for watching this." I also don't question why I'm watching it, where with WWE, I do, constantly.

I would love for WWE to get better. They aren't however. As a wrestling fan, I'm going to find wrestling I enjoy. Period.


Also, Keiji Muto/ The Great Muta is a Japanese wrestler who was big in America.

On a different note, the names in all capital Romanji stems, I want to believe, from AKIRA, and it's because it denotes a big ego/cockiness, etc. Some people also take it as a sign they're a heel, but I don't think so.

Also, I've been able to get more people to watch/ enjoy ROH/Japanese wrestling than I ever have WWE.

[The One]

Here's the thing. If you don't like the ROH style, the Chikara style, the NOAH style, the NJPW style, the Dragon Gate style, AJPW style, etc, then good for you. And yes, all of those styles are different (although AJPW and NOAH are close.)

Don't however try to blindly bash them when you really have no fucking clue what you're talking about. If you've only seen a handful of ROH matches, or a handful of Japanese matches, then shut the fuck up. And don't try to act like fans of them are some elitist sub group of the IWC just because they actually prefer something other than WWE and are willing to say "Hey, these people put on better shows that I find more entertaining than WWE, so I will talk about this instead."

The difference as I see it...

The Japan Wrestling Mark

Random Person: Japanese style of wrestling sucks.

Japan/RoH Mark: OH my god! Ok, so you'd would rather have McMahon reaching into JR's asshole, Superman John Cena, and dumb ass TNA action than good classic all out beautiful technical matches which arn't over quicker than the entrances? You'd rather see Khali smash people than see Kenta and Samoa Joe tear the house down? Who cares how big our audience is, it's full of smart people who appreciate the art!!!

---

and now...

The American Wrestling Mark

Random Person: American Wrestling is a horrific shame, a disgrace, and continues to reach lows every day.

American Mark: No shit, where have you been the past 7 years!

---

See what I mean? The fact is, for some [most] people, the Japan style of wrestling, as well as the RoH (which is just a kind of odd mixture of Japan and Cruiserweight style) is boring and bland. You may see a technical classic, I see some guys with a lack of real skill doing hard chops and kicks to cover for the fact that they don't much know how to put together an interesting match. Now, if you view it differently, that's fine. But the response of how terrible WWE and TNA are doesn't mean jack shit. Hell yeah, the gimmicks/angles/just about everything including match quality sucks ass right now. Just because I DISLIKE Japan/RoH does NOT mean I like America's current product. The only reason I continue to watch American wrestling (which let's be fair, I watch maybe 30 minutes a week now a days) is because at least at some point that style of show did entertainment, even if it doesn't now. AJPW, NJPW, NOAH, Dragon Gate, RoH...not a one of those has provided me with a real reason to ever enjoy the product. Actually, I'll call a spade a spade, RoH's first show's Main Event with Daniels/LowKi/Danielson was good, but only because I so enjoyed Daniels work, hell he could have done the same stuff with two dummies for all I cared.

I don't feel like going on much more about this, but I will close it by saying that having the snobish attitude of "We're totally better" when you are in the minority comes across as eleitest. Granted American fans have the same attitude, but when you're in the overwhelming majority, it's more a mob mentality than any kind of snooty superiority complex thing. Fair? Probably not...just the way things are at the end of the day. Just my two cents.

[Mr. Monday Morning]

You may see a technical classic, I see some guys with a lack of real skill doing hard chops and kicks to cover for the fact that they don't much know how to put together an interesting match.

I find it hilarious when some people say guys on the indys can't work, like they know what they're talking about, and then lambast Cena for being unable to have a good match. Jesus christ.

But the response of how terrible WWE and TNA are doesn't mean jack shit.

It does when people constantly bitch and moan about how WWE sucks nowadays but refuse to even consider watching anything different. Those kind of people annoy the fuck out of me and cause most of the problems that lead to this kind of discourse.

Hell yeah, the gimmicks/angles/just about everything including match quality sucks ass right now.

Oddly enough I disagree, but whatever. There will usually be at least 1 thing a week that I feel the need to see on WWE TV.

Just because I DISLIKE Japan/RoH does NOT mean I like America's current product.

That's slightly different from saying "I fucking hate RoH, RoH marks, etc etc" and you know it.

The only reason I continue to watch American wrestling (which let's be fair, I watch maybe 30 minutes a week now a days) is because at least at some point that style of show did entertainment, even if it doesn't now. AJPW, NJPW, NOAH, Dragon Gate, RoH...not a one of those has provided me with a real reason to ever enjoy the product

Ugh, god, 'the product'....eh, never mind. Most of this stuff shouldn't really apply to you since you watch lucha, which I've found harder to get into than anything else I have come across. I can sit and watch old Sammartino matches easier than I can watch modern lucha. And believe me, there are plenty of people who consider themselves superior because they 'get' lucha whereas other people don't. So I'd imagine you would understand where we're coming from, as someone who *doesn't* go out of his way to act like that.

The main problem, as I see it, is that most of the people on this board who actually watch RoH, or indys in general, are not particularly elitist about it. Yet we get lumped in with the idiots that are, mostly by people who don't actually know what they're talking about. You're an exception in this case as you've actually bothered to sample some of the stuff, but you can't deny that there are dumbfucks who just make ridiculously broad generalisations.

[Theo Dious]

In 5 years the internet will have turned the whole planet into one giant country, so you're wrong there.

Actually that proves I'm right, because the king of Lichtenstein won't be worth anything, and neither will being "big in Japan."

[Mr. Monday Morning]

No, it doesn't. I never said he would be "big in Japan" I said

in about 5 years KENTA will be at the top of what is at the moment the #1 promotion in Japan

and if things go as I just said NOAH would end up being the #2 promotion in the new unified country.

[Theo Dious]

No, it doesn't. I never said he would be "big in Japan" I said



and if things go as I just said NOAH would end up being the #2 promotion in the new unified country.

So he'll basically be on par with Christian, Angle, Jarrett and Joe.

[The One]

I find it hilarious when some people say guys on the indys can't work, like they know what they're talking about, and then lambast Cena for being unable to have a good match. Jesus christ.

I'll be the first to say that some guys on the indy scene could fuckin tear the house down. Now, to be fair, they couldn't if it was at the next WWE PPV. Similar to how the style of performing is different to Japan and America (and remember I am speaking in INCREDIBLY large generalizations), the style of working a crowd of 300 people is different to working a crowd of 30,000 people, and it takes time to relearn the craft to be good at doing your thing on a national stage. For people who have only watch WWE or WCW when they were doing shows with 30,000 people in the audience, they simply have not developed a taste for the style of match that NOAH or RoH do.

It does when people constantly bitch and moan about how WWE sucks nowadays but refuse to even consider watching anything different. Those kind of people annoy the fuck out of me and cause most of the problems that lead to this kind of discourse.

Being dissatisfied with what you've got, yeah then go check out someone different, if you don't like that, you're not going to stick with the second thing you dislike, you're going to stick with the original thing you did like at some point, but bitch about how the first thing sucks right now.

Oddly enough I disagree, but whatever. There will usually be at least 1 thing a week that I feel the need to see on WWE TV.

I have two things I enjoy as well...SHAWN MICHAELS and KEVIN NASH.

That's slightly different from saying "I fucking hate RoH, RoH marks, etc etc" and you know it.

Pardon me, if the truth is told I don't think about RoH or it's marks once I step away from my computer. So maybe hate is a strong word...but let's get real, typically I speak in dramatic overtones with gross generalizations...I'm pretty sure you know that about me by now.

Ugh, god, 'the product'....eh, never mind. Most of this stuff shouldn't really apply to you since you watch lucha, which I've found harder to get into than anything else I have come across. I can sit and watch old Sammartino matches easier than I can watch modern lucha. And believe me, there are plenty of people who consider themselves superior because they 'get' lucha whereas other people don't. So I'd imagine you would understand where we're coming from, as someone who *doesn't* go out of his way to act like that.

Uh, anyone who considers themselves cultured or cool or superior for liking Lucha is fucking retarded. Yeah I like it, but come on, it's a bunch of little Mexican guys running all over the place barely making contact with one another. Personally, it's exciting to watch, but it's nothing that requires taste or refinement...hell their largest audience is Mexican. :p

But again, about my earlier point of being in the majority vs. being in the minority. The majority prefers WWE to RoH. So when someone says that despite all it's current downfalls, "WWE is the best company in the world right now" it's look at as normal because that's how the silent majority feels. When someone says the same thing about RoH it's look at as snobish because they are in the minority. Also, let's be fair, culturally people who like the "underground" things in any realm...more often than not; attempting to be cool and ahead of the curve.

The main problem, as I see it, is that most of the people on this board who actually watch RoH, or indys in general, are not particularly elitist about it. Yet we get lumped in with the idiots that are, mostly by people who don't actually know what they're talking about. You're an exception in this case as you've actually bothered to sample some of the stuff, but you can't deny that there are dumbfucks who just make ridiculously broad generalisations.

No, I agree there are probably a lot of people who have never watched a second yet assume they would hate it. And for that they should at least give it a shot. But I'm willing to bet that most people around here have at least been assed enough to go spend 30 minutes or so YouTube hunting for some big match that was hyped by certain internet writers with hard ons for pink clad Canadians and Japanese pro wrestling...

To be fair, no one here is very elitist about their enjoyment of RoH or Japan, and even for the most part your devotion to such things is contained in a very limited number of threads with the sole purpose of discussing it with other RoH or Japan wrestling marks. The only time you're not, and this isn't your fault just something that makes you stick out like a sore thumb is when people talk about favorite matches or favorite wrestlers and the list go like...

Rock
Austin
Taker
MICHAELS
Kenta Kobashi
Benoit

It's like everyone has seen almost the entire top qulaity part of their career, but then here comes someone who they've seen maybe a match or two of and it's just like...WTF!? Again, this is not being snobish or elitist, it's just something that naturally calls attention to you, and since that is the secret goal of everyone who pretend to be "underground" so they can appear cool, it's a thin line to walk on...ya know? Like I said, I don't think anyone here likes Japan or RoH to be cool, it's just an all too similar situation to ones that we've all been in before.

On a final note, I would like to officially take this time to explain why I personally dislike Japan_style wrestling. Problem one is that I am a big big fan of storylines, something I just can't fallow in Japan as well, and when I say angles I mean all of it, right down to the announcers throwing a bit of emotion in to it as well. Problem two is that I hate hard/stiff style, I don't know why, just if someone starts to work really stiff with the chops (other than FLAIR of course) and kicks, I turn off...something there is a lot of in Japan. Problem three is that before I ever watched a single thing from Japan all I had heard about was how great it was, and quite frankly, nothing could have lived up to my expectations. I left after that first viewing disappointed. Once you've become disappointed with something, it takes an incredible event to change your mind about it. First impressions and all. And I think that's what gets a lot of people. They see smart knowledgeable wrestling mark talk about how great "Brand X" is. If Brand X doesn't live up to the hype, it's hard to break that from that point on.

Anyway, I guess I'm now up to 4 cents worth of opinions. Someone better pay up! :mad:

[Mr. Monday Morning]

So he'll basically be on par with Christian, Angle, Jarrett and Joe.

When was the last time TNA drew 13000

[chrisat928]

If you add up their last two PPVs and every impact show from the last two months, that might add up to 13,000.

Maybe.
Possibly.

[Theo Dious]

When was the last time TNA drew 13000

When was the last time TNA was a top promotion anywhere? It's not like people in Japan can say "fuck you, I go see double-double-e."

I mean they CAN say that, because, you know, they don't speak English and stuff. But I mean, yeah, the top company in Japan had better be able to draw, or else they've got more problems than just this KENTA guy and his ability or lack thereof.

[Mr. Monday Morning]

To be fair, no one here is very elitist about their enjoyment of RoH or Japan, and even for the most part your devotion to such things is contained in a very limited number of threads with the sole purpose of discussing it with other RoH or Japan wrestling marks. The only time you're not, and this isn't your fault just something that makes you stick out like a sore thumb is when people talk about favorite matches or favorite wrestlers and the list go like...

Rock
Austin
Taker
MICHAELS
Kenta Kobashi
Benoit

It's like everyone has seen almost the entire top qulaity part of their career, but then here comes someone who they've seen maybe a match or two of and it's just like...WTF!? Again, this is not being snobish or elitist, it's just something that naturally calls attention to you, and since that is the secret goal of everyone who pretend to be "underground" so they can appear cool, it's a thin line to walk on...ya know? Like I said, I don't think anyone here likes Japan or RoH to be cool, it's just an all too similar situation to ones that we've all been in before.

Well, I can't argue that point, cause I do do that. But if I didn't, I'd be kinda lieing. Soooooooo...yeah, tricky thing. Dunno, I don't have access to WWE or TNA except through downloading, so oddly enough I have more exposure to most things non-mainstream through circumstance as well as choice. With that said, there's probably not a better wrestler right now than Cena, IMHO *shrug*

On a final note, I would like to officially take this time to explain why I personally dislike Japan_style wrestling. Problem one is that I am a big big fan of storylines, something I just can't fallow in Japan as well, and when I say angles I mean all of it, right down to the announcers throwing a bit of emotion in to it as well. Problem two is that I hate hard/stiff style, I don't know why, just if someone starts to work really stiff with the chops (other than FLAIR of course) and kicks, I turn off...something there is a lot of in Japan. Problem three is that before I ever watched a single thing from Japan all I had heard about was how great it was, and quite frankly, nothing could have lived up to my expectations. I left after that first viewing disappointed. Once you've become disappointed with something, it takes an incredible event to change your mind about it. First impressions and all. And I think that's what gets a lot of people. They see smart knowledgeable wrestling mark talk about how great "Brand X" is. If Brand X doesn't live up to the hype, it's hard to break that from that point on.

I'd think those are the same for most people who feel similar, to be honest. There are infrequently storyline-esque feuds (Misawa vs Kawada for example - two guys who trained together, started at the same time, Misawa found great success early and was the rising star, while Kawada was left to become a basically bitter fuck living in Misawa's shadow - they basically carried it over 15 years, on and off) but to be honest most of it is done through the matches.

Point three I definitely concur with though as that's how I still feel about lucha. I watched some Mistico vs Perro Aguayo Jr (sp) match on youtube that was meant to be lucha MOTY and found it boring as all hell. I have seen some fairly neat stuff since then but it's *so* different to anything else I have to really concentrate to even be able to watch it.

I am glad you avoided the term smark though. God damn Pillman for ever making marks think they were smart.

[Mr. Monday Morning]

When was the last time TNA was a top promotion anywhere? It's not like people in Japan can say "fuck you, I go see double-double-e."

I mean they CAN say that, because, you know, they don't speak English and stuff. But I mean, yeah, the top company in Japan had better be able to draw, or else they've got more problems than just this KENTA guy and his ability or lack thereof.

You just basically made my point though. TNA is the #2 company in a huge market, yet gets outdrawn on a regular basis by the #3 or #4 company in Japan. So the comparison isn't valid.