The Official Shawn Michaels or Bret Hart Thread

[The One]

Shawn Michaels or Bret Hart. You can use whatever criteria you want; personal markishness, in ring skill, general character, real life person...WHATEVER. Just make your choice.

(For those of you too fucking stupid, you are voting for who you LIKE MORE)

Feel free to explain your choice, and could we at least TRY to maybe from now on keep all Michaels/Hart related things to THIS thread? Kliq bros? Zen? can we contain it???

[Xero]

I'm going to break Kayfabe here.

Bret Hart was one of the best in-ring workers of the past 20 years. I've enjoyed a lot of his matches. However, for me, that's where he ends. He was a sub-par promo and always had the Randy Orton tone about him. Without the Canada angle he would have been a shitty heel as well. That angle is the ONLY reason he got over as a heel. If he didn't have it he would have been stuck as a face because he was impossible to hate. And not in a good way, his character was too bland to get over as a heel.

Michaels, on the other hand, is great in the ring, is great on the mic, and is very charismatic. Plus, Michaels can play multiple variations of a heel and a face. Of the two, he's the complete package.

[BigDaddyCool]

HBK, and why?

1) He is still wrestling

2) He is far more talented, imo

3) He has charisma coming out the ass

4) He isn't a whiney cry baby

5) K4L

6) Bret is just so robotic.

7) I'm american.

[thedamndest]

HBK is better than Bret at everything. Had Owen not died, I think a closer comparison would have been between The Rocket Slammy Award Winning BlackHart King of Harts and HBK.

[HeartBreakMan2k]

I do agree, Shawn trumps Bret in every area with exception. The better comparison is Owen and Shawn, Shawn still trumps Owen, but I thought Owen was better than Bret.

[A7X]

Shawn>Bret

I'm even Canadian and i think that.

Bret Hart is just washed up and whiny.

[FakeLaser]

HITMAN ALL THE WAY

[IC Champion]

I refuse to choose.

[Kane Knight]

Shawn. Most of people's complaints about Bret are bullshit, but Shawn's still a stellar performer.

[Jeritron]

Zen and New Hampshire have nothing in common

[Nark Order]

It's simple. Shawn's legacy will be that he was a charismatic, athletic, over-achiever that ultimately conquered his demons and that was main eventing Wrestlemanias years past his prime with excellent results. Bret will be known as a great technical wrestler with little to no charisma that decided to whine for 10 years over not being able to choose when and where he wins/loses matches.

There isn't really a comparison.

[Jeritron]

Bret will be so bitter that he'll convince himself that he wants to show up for the fans, but rationalizes that he won't show up at all on a free Raw because it will draw Vince money. Nobody has the heart to tell Bret that he's not gonna draw shit.

[KYR]

Two words.

Show Stopper.

End of story.

[Jeritron]

It's one word, and that's Showstoppa

But yes, end of story. Bret is too bitter to show up to Raw, and Rock thinks he's too good. Fuck em. Michaels and Austin ftw.

[SammyG]

Michaels. Reason is I didn't really get to see much of Bret, wasn't into the WWF back then really, but Michaels is still doing it at this age, and his ring work is still great.

[St. Jimmy]

Shawn. Hands down. No explination needed.

[Nark Order]

Also, no Loose Cannon option? :foc:

[Loose Cannon]

Bret Hart all the way. Bret's my favorite wrestler of all-time. He was my hero growing up watching wrestling and I never stopped cheering for him. I can rattle off lots of reasons why I liked him, but it doesn't really matter anymore.

[Funky Fly]

Basically what Loose Cannon said. Don't get e wrong, I like HBK in the ring and most of the time on the mic, but I was a Hitman fan as far back as I can remember.

[Rob]

Santino Marella.

[Evil Vito]

<font color=goldenrod>Shawn Michaels all the way for me. He's hemorrhaging charisma and in general I just found myself enjoying his matches more than I did with Bret's.</font>

[Theo Dious]

Everyone can find something to like about Shawn Michaels. His look, his charisma, his non-Canadianity, his ability, any of it. If you like Bret Hart, it's probably because you like great technical wrestling, but come on, Shawn outshines Bret in most categories. Also, fucking pink? Come on.

Bret was a technical masterpiece and did a lot worth watching. He gave the business a lot and more than left his mark. But you could make a Greek tragedy out of him. His downfall was purely the result of his own pride (downfall meaning his departure from the WWF and his descent into WCW's midcard hell, not the head injuries. I'll happily blame that on Goldberg, of whom I have no good to say.)

[RottingFreak]

I'm a Hit mark so Bret Hart for sure. I still like HBK tho'. I don't really get this "if you like one, you must hate the other" aspect that they have in some people's minds. Both are great legends of the business.

[Theo Dious]

Additionally, Canada sucks.

[Verbose Minch]

over not being able to choose when and where he wins/loses matches.

Bret did that once, Shawn did it a lot. lol guys i blew mi nee out, o no wait, i didn't, wait its bak, do i keep title?

Edit: 1) He is still wrestling

Why is this such a staple of the Shawn/Bret thing? It's not like Bret can help Goldberg kicking him in the head/hitting a pothole in the road on his bike...

[Jeritron]

I think it's just the fact that Shawn has more of a legacy. I'm sorry, but he does. I don't even know how thats arguable. Bret did have his time, Bret did have his amazing matches and his title wins and left a legacy of his own. He's a legend.

But he just can't compare with Shawn's. Shawn leaves a legacy as the best. He has more landmark matches. He was part of attitude and Austin and Tyson, he was in DX and brought along HHH. He was a part of some of the most benchmark matches of all time, including the defining ladder match, and the first hell in a cell.
He has stolen the show at Wrestlemania time after time.

Bret's biggest moments of his legacy are pretty much the Iron Man Match and The Montreal Screwjob. Guess who shares those with him?
Wrestlemania 10 was Bret's big night, but guess who stole the show and defines that event?

And even if Bret can't help it, Shawns lengthy career is a factor. He managed to return in a major way, and has had matches against Angle and Jericho and others Bret hasn't, and reached an entire new generation of fans.

Bret is certainly a legend with a solid career. But if you really run down the list of what Bret has done, as impressive as it is, anything he could do Shawn could do better.

[FourFifty]

Loose Cannon

[Skippord]

Who cares?

[Zen v.W.o.]

I'm going to break Kayfabe here.

Bret Hart was one of the best in-ring workers of the past 20 years. I've enjoyed a lot of his matches. However, for me, that's where he ends. He was a sub-par promo and always had the Randy Orton tone about him. Without the Canada angle he would have been a shitty heel as well. That angle is the ONLY reason he got over as a heel. If he didn't have it he would have been stuck as a face because he was impossible to hate. And not in a good way, his character was too bland to get over as a heel.

Michaels, on the other hand, is great in the ring, is great on the mic, and is very charismatic. Plus, Michaels can play multiple variations of a heel and a face. Of the two, he's the complete package.

If he wasnt a good heel then the Hart Foundation back in the 80's wouldnt have been the top badass tag team of the era.

ALSO, IMO, Bret Hart was a much better wrestler, and his matches speak for themselves. He owns the greatest match in North american history, or if you want, wwe history, and has carried more wrestlers to their best matches than anyone else.

His charisma and mic skills were fine, because it takes more than just being a good wrestler to get as over as he was.

Benoit was a great wrestler, but never attained that ELITE popularity status..Bret Hart did, and easily, because he had the complete package.

HBK also had the complete package, and I admire the mans work, he just wasnt as good.

Also, Bret has more worldwide appeal. Newbs today might vote HBK cuz they havent had the chance to see the best there ever will be.

[Zen v.W.o.]

Everyone can find something to like about Shawn Michaels. His look, his charisma, his non-Canadianity, his ability, any of it. If you like Bret Hart, it's probably because you like great technical wrestling, but come on, Shawn outshines Bret in most categories. Also, fucking pink? Come on.

Bret was a technical masterpiece and did a lot worth watching. He gave the business a lot and more than left his mark. But you could make a Greek tragedy out of him. His downfall was purely the result of his own pride (downfall meaning his departure from the WWF and his descent into WCW's midcard hell, not the head injuries. I'll happily blame that on Goldberg, of whom I have no good to say.)


Bret wore pink, but Shawn wore mirrors and gay hats. I swear he's a closet case.

Why do you think the guys liked Bret more? They preferred associating with a real man. Perhaps it'sd a bit of himophobia and all, but hey...I dont blame them.

And take a look: The main markets...the smart one's..they liked Bret better.

[Jeritron]

What the fuck are you talking about now? Who liked Bret better? Canadians? Germans? They like hockey and david hasselhoff.

[Jeritron]

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[Zen v.W.o.]

What the fuck are you talking about now? Who liked Bret better? Canadians? Germans? They like hockey and david hasselhoff.

Go the world over..Bret was the bigger attraction. He was their biggest international star and draw, overall. That you DO have to admit, if you dont wanna come off totally biased.

Even in HBK's home country, it was split. Shawn was sorta bigger down south but Bret was the man up north.
Shawn cant say the same for countries like Canada or England or Germany or South Africa etc...

[Mr. JL]

Bret F'N Hart

[Jeritron]

We've had this discussion before. I know I know. I'm half kidding with ya. I'm not discounting Bret. He's a legend. But to be the man you gotta beat the man, and Bret's not the best of all time. Shawn is. That's my opinion.

I just don't see how you can even compare. If you're gonna gauge it by drawing power, domestically or internationally, neither is "the best".

[Zen v.W.o.]

I know. But they were the top two guys holding that company afloat for so many years, which I think is more praise worthy than a guy like HHH who got to coast after the wave Austin started.

Hey, look...I think Bret and HBK are the best two to ever lace them up. I rank them both over anyone else, and that's to me the reason why these two get compared so often, and more than any others...because you always compare the two best at anything.

I would just put Bret at the top spot, with HBK coming up second.

I dont think Bret blows Shawn out of the water at all.

[Mr. JL]

Shawn needed Bret A LOT more than Bret needed Shawn.

[Jeritron]

After Hogan and Savage and all the stripminers blew out the door, they kept the seat warm for Rock and Austin. For that they deserve a lot of credit. They single handedly kept WWF on life support until their successors saved it.

[Funky Fly]

Additionally, Canada sucks.

That's a ban right there.

[Xero]

Canada doesn't suck.

How can something that doesn't exist do anything?

[Funky Fly]

I got my mod window open right here, mang. :mad:

[Impeccable]

As much as it pains me to say it, HBK for me. When I think back to my markish youth, Bret was a god to me, and because of the way he was marketed towards Kids, I never paid that much attention to heels (which Shawn was for most of the early 90's).

I say HBK because he can reinvent himself and appeal to new fans and old alike. Pretty much like the Undertaker.

Bret just seems whiny, and to reinforce my "reinvention theory", I remember watching the documentary called "Hitman Hart: Wrestling with shadows" or something like that. Bret was whining saying that his character had been screwed so he couldn't stay with WWE even if they could offer him money. Saying he was a face in Canada and a heel in America...blah blah blah...and he could never go back to being a face in America.

Sorry Bret, but if guys like Christian, Test, Regal and Storm can go from Un-American to being loved by the people of the States, then you too should be capable of such a feat and stop whining!

[Rammsteinmad]

Shawn Michaels.

[Jeritron]

I watched Wrestling with Shadows again the other day.

"All I can do is punch Vince in the face, and then let it go" - ROFL. Okay Bret

I actually can't help but laugh at how much of a miserable cunt his wife was, and how HHH is literally holding back laughing when she's yelling at him.

[Rob]

Who cares?

Best response yet.

[Rob]

I actually can't help but laugh at how much of a miserable cunt his wife was, and how HHH is literally holding back laughing when she's yelling at him.

That never happened so don't lie.

[The One]

I'm going to guess it goes without saying, but I voted Michaels. The reasons are overwhelming but I throw some out there...

1) Shawn Michaels probably has more 5 star matches than...well...anyone and everyone...combined...times two. The fact of the matter is I can't really think of even 5 matches that I would give 5 stars to that didn't have Michaels in them.

Vince McMahon
Shawn Michaels who from a performancing stand point, I don't know...I don't know that he has a peer, yet. I don't know that he ever will.

2) The Heartbreak Kid is possibly one of the most interesting characters in history. I mean think about the evolution from The Rockers, to then uber heel cocky prick, to being face icon good ol boy from Texas, hilarious rebel of DX, worn down but not out return, to once again returning to being the Show Stealer. I mean honestly, he's got the Texas country boy vibe, he's got the top of the world model vibe, he's been dominate and he's been at the end of his rope. He's done it all, and he's done it as himself. One of the best characters ever.

3) Face...heel...he does both better than basically anyone else and he can switch it back and forth in the blink of an eye.

4) Is he is a complete prick without a soul? Is he a reformed good Christian now? Maybe, just maybe, he's somewhere in between. He's human, and I can't think of too many other wrestlers who have been more open and honest about their humanity than him. In character or out, he's been open about the fact that he's made mistakes and he's done a lot of great things. Haven't we all? The difference is that I don't think he shys away from being open about either...

5) He's the reason I kept watching WWE after Flair left. For personal reasons, that's worth a lot.

6) You ask me, with no Shawn Michaels, there would have been no Stone Cold and no Rocky. Michaels style of out there colorful antics mixed with totally legit bad ass paved the way for guys like Rock and Austin to not be kissing babies face or evil evil heel.

7) Degeneration X. A couple of chapters in the Michaels' legacy, yet probably bigger than 99.9% of all other wrestler's entire lives.

8) I've heard it said, and I can see where this came from, nWo was basically trying to capture HBK's character in a gang like mentality.

9) WrestleMania XIV - Between him, Austin blowing up bigger than any wrestler had ever dreamed of (yes bigger than Hogan), Tyson, the match, the anticipation, his injury he worked through...honestly I'm blown away every single time I see that match. If I had to define my being a fan of pro wrestling into one match, it would probably be Mania XIV.

10) Bret Hart is a complete bitch. I hate him, I hate his fans, I hate the fact that at one time I actually thought he was decent.

[Kane Knight]

That never happened so don't lie.

But...But...Without lies, the argument against Bret has nearly nothing!

[The One]

That never happened so don't lie.

Uh, yeah it did. She was going on and on about what goes around comes around. And how he shouldn't lie cause she knew he was in on it. It's in the freakin' movie.

[ron the dial]

He's just a sexy boy (SEXY BOY)

[Jeritron]

Uh, yeah it did. She was going on and on about what goes around comes around. And how he shouldn't lie cause she knew he was in on it. It's in the freakin' movie.

hahah I know. The one I watch less than 12 hours ago. And he's clearly looking away, not very guilty but holding back a smirk. Then she makes references to it "you guys can go back to the hotel and have a good laugh, have a few beers"

[Jeritron]

But...But...Without lies, the argument against Bret has nearly nothing!

That's the thing, Bret feels justified in his thinking and actions, and maybe he's not wrong, but he's not right either. He's delusional.
He thought that the WWE conspired against him because he was getting too powerful, and that Shawn had nothing to do with it.

He's more professional and honorable than Hogan. But in many ways he suffers from the same complex. He truly believes in being the Hitman and being this character and everything going his way on screen.

[Kane Knight]

That's the thing, Bret feels justified in his thinking and actions, and maybe he's not wrong, but he's not right either. He's delusional.

Those in glass houses....

[Gerard]

He's more professional and honorable than Hogan. But in many ways he suffers from the same complex. He truly believes in being the Hitman and being this character and everything going his way on screen.



Fuck honour, ITS ALL ABOUT THE MONNAAY :p

[Jeritron]

Those in glass houses....

...should not throw stones. I'm not delusional about anything. Bret Hart is lame and makes me sick. Fuck family values too. Shawn might be an asshole, but who cares. It's about who's a better performer and entertainer, and for me that's Shawn. And based on general criteria for judging greatness he should be the winner too.

[Zen v.W.o.]

Doesnt it bother some of you to know you love a fucking closet fag who got his shit kicked in by a couple cheerleaders in some gay bar? They were dressed like fuckin marines to boot, yowza.

lolz.


As Teddy Hart once put it: Shawn Michaels, you fucking pussy, suck my dick, and kiss my ass. God bless you.

[Morrisey]

Shawn. Most of people's complaints about Bret are bullshit, but Shawn's still a stellar performer.
:y:

[McLegend]

Uh, yeah it did. She was going on and on about what goes around comes around. And how he shouldn't lie cause she knew he was in on it. It's in the freakin' movie.

But HHH had a look of a deer caught in the headlights. He was clearly not laughing

[Zen v.W.o.]

HHH was scared shitless basically. A midcarder trying to pull something like that at the time? Not only would he have gotten his ass kicked by Bret, but you've got the remaining members of the Foundation there, and a lockerroom of guys who were legit pissed off about what happened. HHH is a talented sneak, but that's about all I will ever give him credit for being talented at.

[The One]

But HHH had a look of a deer caught in the headlights. He was clearly not laughing

I disagree. It always to me looked like he was amused by the entire thing, and doing an admitedly bad job of pretending to not know what was going on. But then again it's been years since I subjected myself to watching WwS.

[The One]

Zen, can I ask, I mean I know you're completely delusional about Bret legit toughness, I just want to hear your thoughts on if Bret would have ever gone in MMA...

[Pardeep 619]

Fuck HBK, Bret Hart is by far better than Shawn Michaels in every possible way. As for anybody who criticises Bret Hart's promo skills, granted they were never the best, but he had enough emotion in his promos to make them feel real. HBK is shit at promos and bores the fuck out of me. His voice is also fucking annoying.

[Kane Knight]

*something about windmills*

[Kane Knight]

Doesnt it bother some of you to know you love a fucking closet fag who got his shit kicked in by a couple cheerleaders in some gay bar? They were dressed like fuckin marines to boot, yowza.

Wrestling is a Queen's club. It will always involve fags getting beat up or beating people, because it's inherently gay. It attracts fags the same way it attracts drug abusers.

Anyone who's bothered is probably as big a closet case as Zen.

[Verbose Minch]

He was a part of some of the most benchmark matches of all time, including the defining ladder match

If I remember, Shawn stole the ending to that match from Bret...

[The MAC]

Hart made wrestling look much more real than hbk ever did.It was Bret who made Austin.Hbk didnt want to job to Austin.Bret was a far more respectful champion than Hbk.Oh n bret kicked HBKS ass legit!

[Zen v.W.o.]

Zen, can I ask, I mean I know you're completely delusional about Bret legit toughness, I just want to hear your thoughts on if Bret would have ever gone in MMA...

Doubt it.

But just because you dont do mma doesnt mean you arent tough either.

Bret was a pretty good amateur wrestler before he went pro, and when you learn alot from a shooter and badass like Stu, it's gonna rub off on you.

Hey, I'm not gonna lie, I wouldnt talk shit to Shawn's face, nor most any wrestler not named Spike Dudley, but yeah..Shawn had a good cry every now and then whenever Bret and his bunch started picking on him.

And in a legit fight, yes, Bret would plaster HBK. He'd plaster a lot of guys. Shawn didnt need to feel any shame for that.

[Verbose Minch]

And in a legit fight, yes, Bret would plaster HBK.

He did plaster him...

[Rob]

But HHH had a look of a deer caught in the headlights. He was clearly not laughing

At least one person here saw it then.

[Rob]

I disagree. It always to me looked like he was amused by the entire thing, and doing an admitedly bad job of pretending to not know what was going on. But then again it's been years since I subjected myself to watching WwS.

About time you watched it again then. Tool.

[Loose Cannon]

yea, definately not laughing. I watched it just now

[Jeritron]

About time you watched it again then. Tool.

Nah dude, I watched it today and I don't know about how worried he looks. He looks like a high schooler being yelled at by a substitute teacher. I think he could have easily started laughing.

[Verbose Minch]

I think he could have easily blown his quads.

Fixed.

[Jeritron]

Obviously Rob is gonna stick to his guns, and Zen probably won't even see the same youtube as everyone else.
But I agree with Tovo.
Everyone else can be their own judge.


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lol at 1:54

[Verbose Minch]

Yeah, he wasn't going to laugh...

[Zen v.W.o.]

He has his head buried and looking down..he can barely look at Julie while she is scolding him. "I swear to god I didnt.."

He has LOD nearby, two guys that'd smack the shit out of him anyway if they knew about the whole thing.

[Funky Fly]

I knew this shit would start up all over again. :roll:

So many people being faggoty bitches rn. Except TOVO, he's being a hetero bitch. :shifty:

[The One]

Oh and I'd just like throw out there...

DX > Rockers > Bret & Jim

Just uh, well you know.

And hey Funky, the entire reason this thread was made was so that all this can take place here and not EVERYWHERE ELSE. Honestly it's getting old having Bret/Shawn be somehow brought into every thread. I think it's best we have one thread for this, and if ever people start up with it elsewhere direct them here so it doesn't spam the entire damn forum.

[Bad Company]

Bret Hart is the fucking mantis. I just enjoy Shawns Feuds and in Ring work more.

[Funky Fly]

Oh and I'd just like throw out there...

DX > Rockers > Bret & Jim

Just uh, well you know.

And hey Funky, the entire reason this thread was made was so that all this can take place here and not EVERYWHERE ELSE. Honestly it's getting old having Bret/Shawn be somehow brought into every thread. I think it's best we have one thread for this, and if ever people start up with it elsewhere direct them here so it doesn't spam the entire damn forum.

Yeah, but it just gives terrible posters like McGyver a chance to rant.

[Rob]

DX better than The Rockers? If people didn't think you talked shit before, this just proved it.

[Theo Dious]

Canada doesn't suck.

How can something that doesn't exist do anything?

Yeah, I wish I'd remembered THAT before saying something so foolish. :mad:

[Heyman]

Preface - After reviewing my analysis, I realized that it.....kinda sucks. :( Nonetheless, here is my viewpoint:


Shawn Michaels vs. Bret Hart: Who's the better man.


Wrestling Ability: Tie.

To me, it's a bit absurd to try and compare Shawn Michaels to Bret Hart in terms of who the overall better wrestler was. It's like trying to compare Joe Montana to Jerry Rice (or for us hockey fans, Patrick Roy to Wayne Gretzky). Bret and Shawn had different wrestling styles.....and were masters of their own respective styles. In my opinion, HBK and Bret are 2 of the 4 greatest wrestlers of all-time (Kurt Angle and Dynamite Kid being the other two). In the end, I don't think it matters that HBK had more speed, agility, and aerial ability. Similarily, I don't think it matters if Bret had greater mat skills and sold moves in a far more realistic way. In the end, both guys were wrestling geniuses in their own way.


Charisma: Tie:

I'm a little surprised at how many people are be-littling Bret's charisma. During the early mid-90's, Bret was the #1 face carrying the WWE in Hulk Hogan's absence. Bret had tons of international appeal, and did a great job in portraying the "no-nonsense / good guy" image. Even when Bret Hart was an American hating heel, the guy generated great heat in the Hart Foundation.

Anyone that watched the WWE in 1997 knows what I'm talking about. The guy got massive face pops in Canada and generated spectacular heel heat in the U.S. An argument can be made that a large part of Bret's success, came from the fact that he was portraying his real life beliefs (and hence - his promos/attitude came across as very real).

Bottom line? Bret was majorly over as a heel AND a face. HBK on the other hand, had more "flair" and probably had Bret beat in terms of the controversy he created (i.e. DX, MSG incident, etc.). However - HBK's greatest success was always as a heel. Like many other wrestlers, HBK simply could not deliver in the same way as a face. Bret on the other hand, CARRIED THE COMPANY as a major face.

So in conclusion here, I'll have to say "draw" for charisma. Bret showed an ability to be over big time as both a heel and a face. HBK created more overall controversy .


Overall Wrestling Legacy: Bret Hart

In my opinion, Bret's wrestling legacy overshadows HBK's. Bret had(s) more international appeal than HBK in my opinion, and also showed an ability to CARRY the company as both a heel AND a face. Almost anyone can "make it" as a heel. However - it takes someone truly special to reciprocate that as a face.....and Bret delivered from that standpoint. All the great ones have done this: Steve Austin, The Rock, Hulk Hogan, Undertaker, and Bret Hart.

In terms of "who had more memorable matches" (which ties in to overall wrestling legacy IMO), I'd call it a draw.

However, I'd argue that "backstage conduct" falls under wrestling legacy and Bret Hart easily wins hands down here. Bret was a team player for the most part, and almost always did jobs when asked to. Bret had the respect of almost anyone worth a damn backstage (i.e. Undertaker). HBK on the other hand, was a complete brat....and often times went out of his way to belittle others, etc. HBK refused to do jobs, etc. to many people on numerous occassions. HBK was a complete dick to emerging talents such as The Rock. HBK faked an injury to get out of dropping the title to Bret at Mania. At Wrestlemania 14, HBK tried to get out of his match with Austin (until Taker threatened to beat the shit out of him).

So - in terms of overall wrestling LEGACY, I'll have to go with Bret. Both men have had NUMEROUS 5 star matches. Both men had the ability to carry almost ANYONE. However - Bret's international appeal and classy backstage demeanour gives him the nod IMO.


Better current mental State: HBK

It truly saddens me that a guy as great as Bret simply refuses to let go of an event that happened over 10 years ago. It's debatable as to whether Bret screwed Bret or Vince screwed Bret 10 years ago, but Bret sure as hell is screwing Bret at current. EVERY time HBK's name is brought up to Bret nowadays, Bret can't resist taking shots at him (instead of being the "bigger man" and saying, "You know what? It happened 10 years ago. Let's drop it."). HBK on the other hand, truly seems like a guy who is trying to walk the path of spirituality. HBK acknowledges that he was a dick back in the day, and genuinely seems like he's trying to be a better person.

As the years go by, HBK's legacy continues to grow....based on his current wrestling matches and current backstage conduct, etc. "Montreal" on the other hand, seems to grow in relevance as it relates to Bret's wrestling legacy.....and that's sad. The more relevance "Montreal" has, the more it takes away from Bret's overall wrestling legacy....and THAT is a shame. However - Bret is digging his own grave as far as I'm concerned.


Overall - HBK

Although I think Bret has HBK beat in terms of overall wrestling impact, I still choose HBK for reasons NON-wrestling related. After an extremely troubled and tumultous youth, HBK finally seems to be happy....and seems to be walking down the right path. Bret on the other hand, just seems to be misreable...a guy that can't let go of the past.....a guy that keeps dwelling on the past. The funny thing here, is that a lot of Bret's fans have adopted the same mentality (which perhaps explains why a lot of Bret's fans still seem so passionate/angry about Montreal?).

Although Bret probably did more and achieved more than HBK did in his wrestling career (IMO), I also believe that as time goes on, HBK's legacy will continue to get bigger.....while Montreal will grow in relevance as it relates to Bret (which in effect, will continue to diminsh Bret's overall legacy).

At this rate - I think HBK will live a happy life one day after wrestling. Bret on the other hand (and his fans), will continue to be misreable for the most part while dwelling on the past.

[The One]

DX better than The Rockers? If people didn't think you talked shit before, this just proved it.

I'm sorry, but I enjoyed DX more than I did the Rockers. I mean I realize that DX wasn't so much a "Tag Team" as it was a 2.5 man gang (Chyna being half man obviously). But still, DX is some of my fondest memories as a fan.

In truth, I basically missed both Rockers and Hart Foundation. I mean I really only stared watching WWE when Flair jumped over and at that point The Rockers had JUST broken up and the Harts had been more or less done for some time. Obviously I'd gone back and watched just about every event and tape I could fine for WWE pre-1992, and I did watch somewhat off and on during the times that the teams were together, but I generally was not a fan of WWE's product at that time. So I will be up front that I missed the most of the time those two teams were together...

Either way, I stick with my original sentiment from what I HAVE seen.

[Theo Dious]

Charisma: Tie

Well, that does it, you just robbed yourself of the last bit of credibility you may have had.

[Kane Knight]

Well, that does it, you just robbed yourself of the last bit of credibility you may have had.

What, Alienoid is Heyman?

That would explain a lot, actually, but...:wtf:

[Pardeep 619]

Shawn Michaels is the most overrated wrestler in history, and he is also the worst WWE Champion of all time. I appreciate a lot of people here like him and that, but I do think that WWE have tried way too hard to put him over as charismatic (they can't exactly bullshit too much saying that he's strong or tough because that's a blatant lie). The ass kissing in his dvd (and by the 'kliq' guys on here) is nauseating.

[Rob]

I'm sorry, but I enjoyed DX more than I did the Rockers. I mean I realize that DX wasn't so much a "Tag Team" as it was a 2.5 man gang (Chyna being half man obviously). But still, DX is some of my fondest memories as a fan.

In truth, I basically missed both Rockers and Hart Foundation. I mean I really only stared watching WWE when Flair jumped over and at that point The Rockers had JUST broken up and the Harts had been more or less done for some time. Obviously I'd gone back and watched just about every event and tape I could fine for WWE pre-1992, and I did watch somewhat off and on during the times that the teams were together, but I generally was not a fan of WWE's product at that time. So I will be up front that I missed the most of the time those two teams were together...

Either way, I stick with my original sentiment from what I HAVE seen.

The Rockers vs. Orient Express @ RR91. Tha will change your mind.

[Loose Cannon]

well, match wise, the Rockers are better

Entertainment wise as far as promos, skits, etc... DX is miles ahead.

[Rob]

Rockers never really had promos and never had skits.

[The MAC]

Alot of people in here started watchng around 2000.I have been watching since 1991 and if you go back you will realise the magnitude of brets career.He carried the wwf thru the worst of times.Fuck Flair and anyone else who think Bret isnt the best.

[Nark Order]

I disagree with Heyman about Shawn failing as a face. Are you kidding me? HBK can believably turn face or heel at the drop of a hat and have better results than almost anybody.

[Heyman]

I disagree with Heyman about Shawn failing as a face. Are you kidding me? HBK can believably turn face or heel at the drop of a hat and have better results than almost anybody.

Hey dude,

As far as I know, I never said HBK failed as a face. What I did say however, was that HBK did not deliver as a face in the same way as he did as a heel. Keep in mind, I didn't start watching the WWE reguarly until 1998. As far as I know, HBK never carried the company as a major face (if I'm wrong on this, I apologize).

If I have my facts straight however, the fans turned on HBK when they tried to push him as a face (i.e. when he feuded with Pyscho Sid).


And to answer an earlier query - I do think Bret and Shawn were equal in charisma. Bret may have been far more "low key" and "reserved" than Shawn, but his promos came across as EXTREMELY genuine (i.e. his feud with Owen, Lawler, etc.) Bret also garnered tremendous heel heat in 97' during the Hart Foundation/USA feud. Bret was also very over as a top face in years prior.

Just like their wrestling ability, I believe HBK and Bret were equally charismatic but in different ways. HBK had more "pizzaz" and "flair" which helped him immensely as a heel.

Anyway - just my opinion.

[Jeritron]

HBK as a face in 1996 was the only reason they didn't go under. Perhaps on paper he didn't "draw" because they were getting their ass kicked by the WCW/nWo. BUT, he was the only attraction on the card (Bret was on hiatus) and he WAS the WWF. For this, he is clearly one of the better draws ever. He succeeded immensely. HBK's 1996 title run was and is what a face title run should be.

[Loose Cannon]

it's a nice way of putting it if you are an HBK fan here, but let's be realistic. The company almost went under that year and HBK was on top. Basically, it's like saying The 2003 Detroit Tigers almost became the worst team ever in baseball history, but with a few key wins by Mike Maroth, they succeded in not acheiving that feat. Shit is still shit no matter how you look at it.

[Kane Knight]

HBK as a face in 1996 was the only reason they didn't go under. Perhaps on paper he didn't "draw" because they were getting their ass kicked by the WCW/nWo. BUT, he was the only attraction on the card (Bret was on hiatus) and he WAS the WWF. For this, he is clearly one of the better draws ever. He succeeded immensely. HBK's 1996 title run was and is what a face title run should be.

Uh huh...*backs away slowly*

[Zen v.W.o.]

Actually it was better than what nash was doing as champ in 95. But to defend HBK a bit here for a minute, yes shock to all, I dont believe, unless you are Hogan or Austin, that you are responsible for drawing for an entire company. It's the product overall that is the draw, not fair to say Shawn wasnt good because ratings or ppv buyrates were low during his time period.
Besides him, Bret(who took time off) Bulldog, Taker and Owen, what else was there in 96? Vader maybe.

NOBODY, unless wrestling in certain countries or states, under particular circumstances, is a guy that draws on his own name alone..only Hogan and Austin may have been able to say that they did.

[Heyman]

NOBODY, unless wrestling in certain countries or states, under particular circumstances, is a guy that draws on his own name alone..only Hogan and Austin may have been able to say that they did.

Does Zen v.W.o. not smell what The Rock is cooking?!?!!?

:wtf: <--- people's eyebrow

[RottingFreak]

Bret Hart is a bigger star than Shawn Michaels. Has Shawn Michaels appeared in the Simpsons? Clase closed.

[Mr. Nerfect]

I agree with Kane Knight and Heyman's analysis, to an extent. KK is right, because a lot of the shit hurled Bret Hart's way is ridiculous. I also generally agree with Heyman's break-down of their abilities. They were two completely different styles of wrestler, and Bret Hart did have comparable charisma to Shawn Michaels. He wasn't nearly as flashy, but he didn't need to be. His shtick was being a jock-like pure wrestler. Bret Hart did this well enough to leap over the barriers of being seen as bland. And some of you might say that you saw him as bland, but the success the man achieved does not agree with you.

Personally, I'm not as big on Bret Hart as others. I've seen very little of his work, and I'm not too keen to watch every match the guy has ever had, because I don't find something fantastically brilliant in each Bret Hart match to warrant its own viewing. To say the man has no charisma is asinine, though. His success and dedicated following is evidence of at least some form of charisma. Putting on a hat and dancing around to theme music you sung yourself does not make you more charismatic than someone, necessarily.

Bret Hart is a bigger star than Shawn Michaels. Has Shawn Michaels appeared in the Simpsons? Clase closed.

I was actually going to bring this up. Sure, it was only a cameo appearance, but the writers at The Simpsons found Bret Hart to be enough of a cultural icon to at least appear on their show. Shawn Michaels has never really been one of the major draws of wrestling. Hulk Hogan, Stone Cold Steve Austin and The Rock are probably the biggest three, and then you go into the smaller, yet still notable stars wrestling has produced: Andre the Giant, Bret Hart, Randy Savage and The Undertaker. I'd never heard of Shawn Michaels until I was well and truly a wrestling fan.

This is a dodgy method of measurement, and I'll admit that, but look at how many World Championships they held during their era. Bret Hart ended his career with seven to his name, I believe. Shawn Michaels was nursing his back for four years with only three. If you look at how long each guy was WWE Champion, Bret Hart almost doubles the time HBK spent as Champion.

Yeah, it's a dodgy method, but I think it is worth bringing up. I really believe that Bret Hart is a little ahead as far as contributions to the industry go.

So yeah, everyone has their opinion, I guess. A Shawn Michaels match can be a lot more flat-out fun than a Bret Hart match, but I think each guy has his reasons to go down as one of the greatest, but all things considered, and not making this apples and oranges, and putting some kind of criteria on them that they can both meet, I think I'd go with Bret Hart, just for being a bit more relevant and iconic than Shawn Michaels.

[Kane Knight]

In fact, Bret's been referenced in a lot of places, and Michaels....Well, Michaels, I know of none.

[The MAC]

Bret has been on cnn and leno as well.

shawn was on baywatch once..non speaking role.. It was the one with ric flair as the champion on it. WCW invaded baywatch lol.

[Kane Knight]

Oh, right. Also, Shawn Michaels posed nekkied.

[Heyman]

Bret has been on cnn and leno as well.

shawn was on baywatch once..non speaking role.. It was the one with ric flair as the champion on it. WCW invaded baywatch lol.

LOL - I think I remember that episode. :lol:

Hogan and Savage were faces, while Flair and ??? were the big bad heels.

:lol::lol::roll:

[Kane Knight]

...Well, not really.

[Heyman]

In all seriousness, I think Bret has a bigger penis than Shawn.

Only JR would know for sure though.

[The MAC]

Oh, right. Also, Shawn Michaels posed nekkied.

yes, in a gay magazine.

[McLegend]

Bret Hart also appears on the introduction of "Malcolm In The Middle."

Puting Benoit in the sharpshooter no less.

[The MAC]

I bet most of you HBK lovers post on this forum : http://www.voy.com/23269/

[The One]

Let me try and understand this new measurement of someone's worth as a wrestler...it's dependent on how much they appear OUTSIDE of wrestling? Well Marc Mero has been all over CNN, Chyna has been everywhere from news rooms to reality TV, Steve Blackman is no stranger to appearing outside of the ropes, and even Billy Gunn has had a spot on a sitcom. I guess that automatically makes them better than say, The Undertaker, who, to my knowledge, hasn't made too many non wrestling appearances.

Honestly, the idea that because Bret was characterized on The Simpsons, that makes him better than Shawn, or that somehow makes him a bigger draw is simply idiotic.

[The One]

No I'll go ahead and be fair here, Shawn Michaels and Bret Hart had 2 totally different styles of working a match. Having said that, almost EVERY great wrestlers has their own style. Why can't we compare them? Anybody who's great at anything usually does it with their own specific style and flair, so we should not compare any great thing to another? I mean who was better The Beatles or The Rolling Stones? Oh well they were different styles so obviously you can't compare them. :roll:

I think their in ring styles is reflective of how each man viewed the industry. Shawn's style was much flashier and even by Hart marks' admission, more purly entertaining. Bret did his whole this is real thing, everything was done to make it 100% believable. Which is fine if you enjoy watching a fake sport trying to pass itself off as believable. Personally I'm more about watching something that is fake be entertaining. I guess it's up to each person to deside in Sports Entertainment, which element is more important to them. Personally I think Shawn is possibly the best ever when it comes to giving entertainment, and he wasn't too shabby about it's sport origin either...where as Bret was spot on selling it like it was real, but kind of let the entertainment aspect drop dead.

Wow, look at that, I compared two different styles! Do you have to agree with it? No, but don't do this cop out bullshit where because they worked two different kinds of matches it can't be compared.

[Kane Knight]

Let me try and understand this new measurement of someone's worth as a wrestler...it's dependent on how much they appear OUTSIDE of wrestling? Well Marc Mero has been all over CNN, Chyna has been everywhere from news rooms to reality TV, Steve Blackman is no stranger to appearing outside of the ropes, and even Billy Gunn has had a spot on a sitcom. I guess that automatically makes them better than say, The Undertaker, who, to my knowledge, hasn't made too many non wrestling appearances.

Honestly, the idea that because Bret was characterized on The Simpsons, that makes him better than Shawn, or that somehow makes him a bigger draw is simply idiotic.

I think the idea that the Simpsons would compare on a resumé compared to an episode of "Sabrina, the Teenage Witch" is simply idiotic. Or comparing it to Marc Mero, who shows up on news shows which talk about wrestling specifically.

Guesting on the Simpsons is a pretty big deal. Guesting on Sabrina? Not so much. Guesting on Larry King to talk about steroids? Again, not so much. Does that make Bret a better draw? No. Does it indicate a level of popularity and a potential status as a "household name" that the others shows do not carry? Uh...Yeah.

Should it be the only measure? No. Does it have an impact? Yes.

This thread will now be the target of ToVo's markish reaction.

[The One]

AND ANOTHER THING...

This is something that's ALWAYS bothered me. Could someone point to the years that Bret Hart carried the company? I mean seriously, from the time I started watching WWE religiously in '92 to present day, I struggle with finding these years that the entire company was carried on Bret's back.

Most people claim that once Hogan left, it was the Bret Hart show...ok...Hogan left in 1993. And by the way, in 1993 Hogan left WrestleMania with the WWF Title who he won from Yokozuna because, as I understand it (and I could be wrong on this one, so any details about why 9 ended the way it did would be great), Hogan felt Hart wasn't a big enough name to win the belt off of. Anyway, Bret spent the last part of 1993 (the Hogan free section) feuding with...Jerry Lawler. No exactly the center focus of the WWF, nor was it keeping the entire company afloat I'd imagine...

OK, well maybe it was 1994. I mean he was the Champ during 94. But wait a second, was he supposed to be? I mean the fact that Luger couldn't keep his damn mouth closed before Mania X is really the only reason Bret walked away with the belt that night. And if memory serves me, Lex was just as much over if not maybe a little more so going into that event. Sounds like at best he might be co-carrying the company with old Lexy boy. And of course then AT WrestleMania X the entire WWF Title situation was overshaddowed by....oh this is gonna be good...Shawn Michaels and Scott Hall's ladder match. Bret had 2 matches that night, one against golden boy Owen (which he lost) and the other winning the freakin' title, and what do people remember from that night? The Kliq doing their thing. If you ask me, from that point on Michaels and Razor were at least on the same tier in terms of drawing ability and popularity as Hart. So wow, that's Bret, Lex, Shawn and Razor, sure isn't sounding like poor old Bret has the entire promotion on his back right now. But that's only one part of 1994...

Later in 1994, I'm going to do something I HATE doing, but I am going to admit that at SummerSlam 1994, Bret and Owen had everything going for them and did a better job than Hall/Nash/Michaels did. Their program was incredible...too bad both were outshined by Taker vs. Fake Taker. And BOOM, now we have The Undertaker to also be there to take some of the load off of poor Bret's back. And we round out the year 1994 with BRet Hart carrying the company by....droping the belt to Bob Backlund and not doing much else of importance.

So we open 1995; Kevin Nash is WWF Champion, Shawn Michaels and Razor while both still working the IC level could jump seamlessly from the IC belt to seriously WWF Title contender in the blink of an eye (including Michaels working the WWF Title match at Mania that year), we have The Undertaker doing his thing, we have Owen being looked up as a legit threat to anyone and everyone (especially big brother Bret) and then we have Bret Hart who after a brief feud with Nash goes back to feuding with Bob Backlund. Now I'm not even going to say a word about the quality of the matches, that's up to you to deside how you liked them, but I am going to say quite positively that Bret/Bob wasn't keeping the WWF afloat. Bret then went back to working with Lawler. Again, not the stuff a company is based on. Then at the tail end of the year Bret wins the belt again, and begins a feud with The Undertaker over the belt. Bret and the Undertaker, even if that was the ONLY drawing point of the company (which is WAS NOT) he still has the freakin' Undertaker to work off of.

We're now in 1996, and as far as I can tell Bret hasn't had a single second were he had to carry the entire company, well maybe 1996 will be the year; nope, cause he's got his program with Shawn Michaels for the title leading up to the Iron Man at Mania XII. We all know how it ends. And Bret's off, only to return months later to feud with; Steve Austin. By the end of their feud...nah fuck it...by the time their feud really began Austin was a bigger name and bigger draw than Bret EVER was.

So there you have it. If someone would like to point to the time; hell I'd accept something as asinine as the one day that Bret Hart was carrying the entire company on his own, I might give some validity to the concept that Bret is great because he kept WWE afloat during it's dark times. But in the mean time, I'm gonna go with the theory that unless your name is Hogan or Austin, you aren't carrying the company.

[The One]

I think the idea that the Simpsons would compare on a resumé compared to an episode of "Sabrina, the Teenage Witch" is simply idiotic. Or comparing it to Marc Mero, who shows up on news shows which talk about wrestling specifically.

Guesting on the Simpsons is a pretty big deal. Guesting on Sabrina? Not so much. Guesting on Larry King to talk about steroids? Again, not so much. Does that make Bret a better draw? No. Does it indicate a level of popularity and a potential status as a "household name" that the others shows do not carry? Uh...Yeah.

Should it be the only measure? No. Does it have an impact? Yes.

This thread will now be the target of ToVo's markish reaction.

You're right KK. Well by my estimation The Simpsons is a far bigger and betetr show than That 70's Show, and CERTAINLY more in main stream than Star Trek shows...so does that mean The Rock, for a while anyway, didn't have the star power of a Bret Hart since he never was in the yellow town?

It was a 10 second clip of Burns moving out of his house. They could have put any worker of the time in there, or hell they could have made up a wrestler, which I'm almost positive most fans of The Simpsons who don't watch pro wrestling thought they did anyway.

I'm sorry, my examples weren't on par with the level of The Simpsons, my point was simply that it's fucking retarded to try and measure a wrestler's value based on their appearences on programs other than wrestling. But that's just me, I guess I watch wrestling for wrestlers, not to scope out who might make the next cameo splash. :roll:

[Kane Knight]

You're right KK. Well by my estimation The Simpsons is a far bigger and betetr show than That 70's Show, and CERTAINLY more in main stream than Star Trek shows...so does that mean The Rock, for a while anyway, didn't have the star power of a Bret Hart since he never was in the yellow town?

It was a 10 second clip of Burns moving out of his house. They could have put any worker of the time in there, or hell they could have made up a wrestler, which I'm almost positive most fans of The Simpsons who don't watch pro wrestling thought they did anyway.

I'm sorry, my examples weren't on par with the level of The Simpsons, my point was simply that it's fucking retarded to try and measure a wrestler's value based on their appearences on programs other than wrestling. But that's just me, I guess I watch wrestling for wrestlers, not to scope out who might make the next cameo splash. :roll:

That would be great if I was arguing which the better show was, or that the Simpsons was the ONLY show for which this counted, ToVo. Or if anyone had made those notions. Thing is, nobody did.

The Rock, for example, HOSTED SNL. Certainly, appearances in Star Trek are pretty meaningless, especially since it was a deal brokered not because of the star power (I mean, the Big Show also appeared on Star Trek), but because of marketing (Paramount wanted it to happen), but not being in the Simpsons alone doesn't mean that someone hasn't had their own crossover success. I mean, looking at the Rock, was Star Trek the best example you could think of? Maybe SNL, or the movies he's been in, or his dozens...AND DOZENS...Sorry, markish Rock moment...Of appearances in various places cemented him as a household name, dyathink?

That "ten second clip" Was about as much as most of the pop culture icons got on the Simpsons, BTW. And I don't even know who was on that 70s show, but the show was not really as indicative of pop culture as the Simpsons. I know they had some cool guests, but there is a certain cultural standpoint to appearing on the Simpsons to an extent that doesn't exist on That 70s show, or most other shows on TV.

Does that mean there are no other outlets? No, but you chose some really shitty examples. Marc Mero has made himself a career that would be worthy of "Where are they now?" shows only, and Billy Gunn had a bit part on a comedy that's nowherein the same league. I also don't see anyone arguing that Bret is a bigger celebrity than, say, the Rock, or Steve Austin, etc. Really, I don't.

As for your point of measuring people by their appearances outside of wrestling, you're wrong. Crossover success helped make wrestling big in the 80s AND in the 90s. The big stars will almost certainly be multimedia stars. That's a point that really does need to be made. And while you will find exceptions, they will certainly be rare. At least as far as the top of a generation go. So yes, outside impact can and does affect how popular a wrestler is, and even how successful. I'm not addressing this for its relevance to Bret Hart (BEcause I don't think it's relevant in this case), but that line of thought was just so phenomenally stupid, I had to say something about it.

But we're not comparing Bret to the Rock, or Austin, or Hogan, or other people who have megastardom under their belts. We're comparing him to Shawn Michaels, who is nowhere close to the Rock, or Austin, or Hogan in terms of appeal, popularity, or draw.

[The One]

My point about Star Trek and That 70's Show was those were the first two places Rock made guest spots.

What I was going for in my argument was that Bret Hart's ten second spot on The Simpsons does literally nothing to measure his worth to the industry. Him appearing on there didn't bring one extra fan in or do anything other than give fans of both Simpsons and wrestling a chance to go "Oh hey, that was cool." I'm with you 100% that the only three names in wrestling history who have ANY value in main stream media are Rock, Austin and Hogan (MAYBE make possible exception for Andre The Giant). Hell, even Ric Flair's name means jack shit outside the ring. Flair, Hart, Michaels, Hunter, none of their names mean anything when you attach them to something other than a wrestling match. So why point out (and I know it wasn't you KK who did this originally) that Bret Hart was on The Simpsons as any kind of indication that his appearance on the show makes me better than Michaels?

It's like someone saying Terry Bradshaw is the best quarterback because he's one of the most recognizable faces in and outside of the grid iron. Is Bradshaw great? Hell yes. Does his name deserve to be mentioned and argued over if he is the best or not? Absolutely. But it's not because he's had more appearances in other mediums other than football.

[Pardeep 619]

AND ANOTHER THING...

OK, well maybe it was 1994. I mean he was the Champ during 94. But wait a second, was he supposed to be? I mean the fact that Luger couldn't keep his damn mouth closed before Mania X is really the only reason Bret walked away with the belt that night. And if memory serves me, Lex was just as much over if not maybe a little more so going into that event. Sounds like at best he might be co-carrying the company with old Lexy boy. And of course then AT WrestleMania X the entire WWF Title situation was overshaddowed by....oh this is gonna be good...Shawn Michaels and Scott Hall's ladder match. Bret had 2 matches that night, one against golden boy Owen (which he lost) and the other winning the freakin' title, and what do people remember from that night? The Kliq doing their thing. If you ask me, from that point on Michaels and Razor were at least on the same tier in terms of drawing ability and popularity as Hart. So wow, that's Bret, Lex, Shawn and Razor, sure isn't sounding like poor old Bret has the entire promotion on his back right now. But that's only one part of 1994...

Later in 1994, I'm going to do something I HATE doing, but I am going to admit that at SummerSlam 1994, Bret and Owen had everything going for them and did a better job than Hall/Nash/Michaels did. Their program was incredible...too bad both were outshined by Taker vs. Fake Taker. And BOOM, now we have The Undertaker to also be there to take some of the load off of poor Bret's back. And we round out the year 1994 with BRet Hart carrying the company by....droping the belt to Bob Backlund and not doing much else of importance.

So we open 1995; Kevin Nash is WWF Champion, Shawn Michaels and Razor while both still working the IC level could jump seamlessly from the IC belt to seriously WWF Title contender in the blink of an eye (including Michaels working the WWF Title match at Mania that year), we have The Undertaker doing his thing, we have Owen being looked up as a legit threat to anyone and everyone (especially big brother Bret) and then we have Bret Hart who after a brief feud with Nash goes back to feuding with Bob Backlund. Now I'm not even going to say a word about the quality of the matches, that's up to you to deside how you liked them, but I am going to say quite positively that Bret/Bob wasn't keeping the WWF afloat. Bret then went back to working with Lawler. Again, not the stuff a company is based on. Then at the tail end of the year Bret wins the belt again, and begins a feud with The Undertaker over the belt. Bret and the Undertaker, even if that was the ONLY drawing point of the company (which is WAS NOT) he still has the freakin' Undertaker to work off of.

Ok a few points I would like to mention.

1. Although Lex was initially the guy WWE wanted as the main man, after the reaction of the Royal Rumble ending, Bret was scheduled to walk out of WM10 as WWE Champion. It only harmed Lex, rather than helped Hart, that he blabbed to the press.

2. The ladder match did not overshadow Bret/Owen or the WWE title situation. Only HBK marks or people who didn't follow wrestling at the time could believe such a thing. Don't get me wrong, I may dislike HBK but I loved that match and I give HBK a lot of credit for making that match enjoyable. However, Bret/Owen was the better match and helped draw the PPV. The quality of the ladder match was more of a surprise, and the only reason people may possibly remember the ladder match more is because it was the first ever on PPV and because HBK still works for WWE (hence why it will get mentioned more and people will remember it).

3. Shawn Michaels was nowhere near on the same popularity level as Bret back in 1994. Whether you like it or not HBK was still just a jobber who was nowhere near main event level. Maybe you've forgotten (or don't know) but running away from nearly all of his IC Title defenses in late 1993 and acting like a pussy in 1994 hardly makes him number 1 contender material. In fact, at that particular moment in time, I would say that HBK was the worst IC Champion in history (not any more compared to some of the other losers who have held it). Even though he won the Royal Rumble and wrestled in the WWE Title match at WM11 (in a midcard match) In my opinion, Shawn Michaels started to become a potential main event player around mid - late 1995 and then obvoiusly became one in 1996.

[Jeritron]

Bret being on The Simpsons is awesome. But Austin was never on The Simpsons.

Take actors, musicians or pro athletes and throw them into the argument.

Is Ed Begley Jr. a better actor/box office draw/performer than Arnold because the latter didn't lend his real voice and the former did?

Same goes for bands which haven't been on the Simpsons, or athletes.

The guest star list of The Simpsons does tend to read like a who's who in showbiz, but it's not like it's an effective measuring tool

[Loose Cannon]

Bret Hart

[Zen v.W.o.]

The One, if you even for a second thought Lex was as close to as over as Bret in 94, you're just turning a blind eye to the entire thing. The fans were puking on that shit, despite trying to build him into the next "american hero".

Watch the RR again and have a listen.

[The MAC]

the guy has shawn michaels as his avatar. You think he is willing to see reason? Post some cock pictures then maybe you'll get his attention

[Kane Knight]

Bret being on The Simpsons is awesome. But Austin was never on The Simpsons.

Take actors, musicians or pro athletes and throw them into the argument.

Is Ed Begley Jr. a better actor/box office draw/performer than Arnold because the latter didn't lend his real voice and the former did?

Same goes for bands which haven't been on the Simpsons, or athletes.

The guest star list of The Simpsons does tend to read like a who's who in showbiz, but it's not like it's an effective measuring tool

That would be great if I was arguing which the better show was, or that the Simpsons was the ONLY show for which this counted, ToVo. Or if anyone had made those notions. Thing is, nobody did.

The Rock, for example, HOSTED SNL. Certainly, appearances in Star Trek are pretty meaningless, especially since it was a deal brokered not because of the star power (I mean, the Big Show also appeared on Star Trek), but because of marketing (Paramount wanted it to happen), but not being in the Simpsons alone doesn't mean that someone hasn't had their own crossover success. I mean, looking at the Rock, was Star Trek the best example you could think of? Maybe SNL, or the movies he's been in, or his dozens...AND DOZENS...Sorry, markish Rock moment...Of appearances in various places cemented him as a household name, dyathink?

That "ten second clip" Was about as much as most of the pop culture icons got on the Simpsons, BTW. And I don't even know who was on that 70s show, but the show was not really as indicative of pop culture as the Simpsons. I know they had some cool guests, but there is a certain cultural standpoint to appearing on the Simpsons to an extent that doesn't exist on That 70s show, or most other shows on TV.

Does that mean there are no other outlets? No, but you chose some really shitty examples. Marc Mero has made himself a career that would be worthy of "Where are they now?" shows only, and Billy Gunn had a bit part on a comedy that's nowherein the same league. I also don't see anyone arguing that Bret is a bigger celebrity than, say, the Rock, or Steve Austin, etc. Really, I don't.

As for your point of measuring people by their appearances outside of wrestling, you're wrong. Crossover success helped make wrestling big in the 80s AND in the 90s. The big stars will almost certainly be multimedia stars. That's a point that really does need to be made. And while you will find exceptions, they will certainly be rare. At least as far as the top of a generation go. So yes, outside impact can and does affect how popular a wrestler is, and even how successful. I'm not addressing this for its relevance to Bret Hart (BEcause I don't think it's relevant in this case), but that line of thought was just so phenomenally stupid, I had to say something about it.

But we're not comparing Bret to the Rock, or Austin, or Hogan, or other people who have megastardom under their belts. We're comparing him to Shawn Michaels, who is nowhere close to the Rock, or Austin, or Hogan in terms of appeal, popularity, or draw.

[The MAC]

http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/9708/fagqj3.jpg

[wwe2222]

Ive been watching wrestling since Wrestlemania 2. The Hart Foundation was easily my favorite tag team of the 80s. Bret-Perfect from SS91 is one of my favorite all time matches. Hell, when Bret showed up on WWF Superstars as the World Champion, it completely blew my mind.

Now i was a rockers fan too, enjoyed their in ring work, loved watching them. But the moment Shawn sent Marty Jannetty through that Barber Shop window, Shawn has always been my favorite to watch. I think Shawn has had better fueds, better matches, better promos.

Im not going to criticize Bret for being whiny about Montreal, etc. The guy did get a rough deal for everything that happened afterwards. For me, Shawn is always the guy I stayed around to watch. When Hogan, etc. left for WCW, Shawn was the main guy I stuck to WWF. After I stopped watching for a bit in high school, DX brought me back. When I stopped watching again in college, HBK's return got me watching again...and hes been one of the few reasons Ive kept watching.

[The MAC]

so this DX that we had should be the reason you stop watching as it was fucking 'orrible

[wwe2222]

so this DX that we had should be the reason you stop watching as it was fucking 'orrible

and it was still better than everything else they've been putting on.

[Kane Knight]

and it was still better than everything else they've been putting on.

Which was fucking sad, but fucking true.

[Mr. Pierre]

I gotta go with Shawn Michaels. Even though I do think Bret was great, I just didn't have a hard time making up my mind on this one.

[Theo Dious]

Most people claim that once Hogan left, it was the Bret Hart show...

I never got that. Bret got the title and was a major player, but there was an awful lot of Flair, Savage, 'Taker, Perfect, and even Scott freaking Hall holding the roof up at least as much as Bret.

[Jeritron]

I never got that. Bret got the title and was a major player, but there was an awful lot of Flair, Savage, 'Taker, Perfect, and even Scott freaking Hall holding the roof up at least as much as Bret.


True. But there was an awful lot of shit holding things up as a supporting cast during the Hulk Hogan show.

[Kane Knight]

True. But there was an awful lot of shit holding things up as a supporting cast during the Hulk Hogan show.

And even during the Attitude Era, under Rocky and Austin.

[RottingFreak]

I've noticed Bret Hart is compared to both Shawn Michaels and Ric Flair a lot in these boards. There must be a reason for that. Whether some of you admit it or not, Bret is and will forever be the guy who you must compare greatness with.

[The One]

I've noticed Bret Hart is compared to both Shawn Michaels and Ric Flair a lot in these boards. There must be a reason for that. Whether some of you admit it or not, Bret is and will forever be the guy who you must compare greatness with.

I rarely see Bret compared to anyone other than Shawn and Owen. Any comparison to Ric was made right after Bret made those comments that he was under whelmed working with Flair. And there you have Bret's legacy. Bitching. He's brought up only when people talk about other workers who Bret has at some point or another bad mouthed. That's it.

Bret Hart's Legacy
1) Bret/Vince/Shawn/Santa/YOU/The Devil screwed Bret.
2) Bret or Shawn: Who is better?
3) Bret or Owen: Who is better?
4) Canada sucks.

More or less that's about all the contributions towards wrestling I have seen from him. And if you go by my opinion; he screwed himself, Shawn is better, Owen is better, and yes indeed Canada sucks. Not much to write home about there...

[Zen v.W.o.]

Brets influence still runs deep among many younger wrestlers today..christ man, take off the blinders.

You realize Bret only brought up Ric because Ric made idiotic comments about Bret and the Owen death, right? Comments he had no right even making, because he was not even involved in any way..he went out of his way to involve the Hart tragedy in his book to sell more copies.

And that deserves a good thrashing. Bret gave it to him.

It also proves that Brets name and the Hart family influence what still transpires on tv today, and their name is huge enough that everyone, including that old man dinosaur, Flair, try to get a rub from them.

HBK's legacy:

Faggot clothing
Playgirl
I lost my smile(talk about Bret whining, at least he didnt break down like a baby)
Guys getting sick of him
turning to christ to save him
Balding, still somewhat gayish looking guy who holds on to the old HBK theme.

[Kane Knight]

I swear, when it comes to this debate, Zenny and ToVo are the two dumbest motherfuckers on the face of the motherfucking planet.

[Zen v.W.o.]

Not really, I've been objective when needed. And the only time I dumb my comments down are in mocking the way ToVo gets when he keeps insisting Bret hasnt done shitall for the industry, and decides to act like a 12 year old listing for us reasons why Bret sucks, none of them being remotely relevant or factual.

Basically, I fuck about, only when pushed. ToVo is dead serious, and that is a sad bit of business right there.

[The One]

I swear, when it comes to this debate, Zenny and ToVo are the two dumbest motherfuckers on the face of the motherfucking planet.

Actually our blind loyalty makes us top choices for dumbest people in terms of discussing anything involving wrestling. :y:

[The One]

Not really, I've been objective when needed. And the only time I dumb my comments down are in mocking the way ToVo gets when he keeps insisting Bret hasnt done shitall for the industry, and decides to act like a 12 year old listing for us reasons why Bret sucks, none of them being remotely relevant or factual.

Basically, I fuck about, only when pushed. ToVo is dead serious, and that is a sad bit of business right there.

Oh shut the fuck up. Firstly, I don't think you're going over board with your e-blowjob of Bret Hart only in response to me since you suck on his balls any chance you get. And second off, you have no way of judging me to be serious. You can't be a fan boy of someone, and then when you get called on your shit for totally ignoring facts pull out some lame ass "Uh, he pushed me first" non sense. Either enjoy riding the wave of being an unwaviering fan, or don't. Cause right there it made you sound like some little whinny bitch.

[Zen v.W.o.]

It's not "whinny".

It's hard to argue with someone who claims Bret hasn't done shit in the business.:nono:

lolz.:lol:

[The Lone Wolf]

This is very hard for me. I believe that Bret is the better wrestler and Michaels is the better performer. To me Bret made wrestling look real but Michaels charisma made you want to watch him everytime he was on. To me this is a push.

[Kane Knight]

It's not "whinny".

It's hard to argue with someone who claims Bret hasn't done shit in the business.:nono:

lolz.:lol:

Well, ot be fair, he never drew a dime. Ric Flair said so, and Ric Flair is known for his honesty, integrity, and chastity.