Why does WWE like to go out of their way to make paper champions?

[BigDaddyCool]

Seriously. What is up with that? I mean right now CM Punk is a paper champion, and they literally remind us of the fact 3 times a show. They focus more on his potienal challengers than they do him. While he isn't the weakest paper champion they have had, he is the latest in a string.

I mean there was Edge's first title run that last a month when he stole it from Cena. All he did was talk about how he wanted to prove he isn't a paper champion only to become a paper champion.

Then there was Rey's alleged title run. I never saw it, but he was constantly losing during the period some people said he was champion. That screams tracing paper champion to me, if he was a champion at all.

Oh, I almost forgot about Jericho's so famous Undisputed title reign. Sure he was the first, but he only won by constantly cheating, he was choking in every match, then promtly lost the title to HHH as so as he came off injury.

I just love how WWE puts titles on guys while pulling the carpet out from under their feet.

Discuss

[Destor]

The fect that they keep mentioned on screen that Punk is a paper champ keeps making me think they plan on making a decent champ. Trying to show how he worked to be something better or what have you.

They've got the chance to do it, but I'm pretty sure they wont. Either way I will say that his matches with Batista were really good.

[addy2hotty]

Because he is, and he probably knows it in all honesty. Don't they say, judge a champion by his second reign? Punk will not be defined by this run.

Was the term 'paper champion' originally coined by Mr T in Rocky 3? Just wondering.

[Hanso Amore]

Edge didnt even get a month the first time, he got 2 Raws, maybe 3.

[Kane Knight]

The fect that they keep mentioned on screen that Punk is a paper champ keeps making me think they plan on making a decent champ. Trying to show how he worked to be something better or what have you.


Sounds like when they kept reminding us how lucky Rey was. Makes me think that it is what it is, and that's it.

[screech]

Because CM Punk as champion is better than Big Dave as champion? Or they're trying to put one over on us by making us think he's a fluke when really he'll be good with the strap.

Rey had a title run? I remember him jobbing for weeks at a time a few years ago, but I never pay too much attention to him because he sucks.

Edge's first title run wasn't that long, but they've given him more since. Maybe that's Punk's future.

They like to change things up when people start bitching about the same people being champions, so they give the belt to someone else for a while until people get over it. Then it's right back to the top guys.

Meh, that sounded better in my head. Oh well, maybe it will cause more discussion.

[BigDaddyCool]

Shut up screech, you added nothing. They don't like to change things when people start bitching. Cena was champion forever and only lost it because of an injury.

[Londoner]

The fect that they keep mentioned on screen that Punk is a paper champ keeps making me think they plan on making a decent champ. Trying to show how he worked to be something better or what have you.

They've got the chance to do it, but I'm pretty sure they wont. Either way I will say that his matches with Batista were really good.

Those are my thoughts to.

[BigDaddyCool]

I also agree with CM Punk v Bats have been good matches, but the fact that he hasn't beaten JBL or Bats under his own merit, and only scored a count out victory on Kane leaves something to be desired if they are trying to make him look like a strong champion.

[screech]

Shut up screech, you added nothing. They don't like to change things when people start bitching. Cena was champion forever and only lost it because of an injury.

Yeah and does he have the title back yet? I didn't think so. Everyone complained when Cena was champion because he was being forced down our throats. Cena is not the champ and ratings have been up. Before you bitch at me for that, I'm not saying the two things are related, I'm merely stating a fact.

And like I said before when you mentioned Edge, he got a crappy first run but has gotten more since. That could be Punk's future. He obviously won't have a great first run, but since he's brought ratings, he may get more runs later.

[Londoner]

I also agree with CM Punk v Bats have been good matches, but the fact that he hasn't beaten JBL or Bats under his own merit, and only scored a count out victory on Kane leaves something to be desired if they are trying to make him look like a strong champion.

They're just being creative with a title reign for once, its a lot better than it being predictable that he will win clean.

[Sebastian]

Your complaint is both wrong and irrelevant!

You see, you are lacking some logic in how things work. These guys are not established main eventers, they are new to the scene.

So would it be LOGICAL for them, to suddenly start beating ESTABLISHED main eventers all over the place when they couldnt beat them before JUST BECAUSE they won a title? This has absolutely no ground in logic and doesnt make sense, so I dont understand ur complaint. I mean, it would make the current main eventers look like crap if some guy starts beating them just because he won the gold. It would be something fishy to the fans and dumb booking.

Let me adress ur complaints one by one.

Lets first take current world champ CM Punk. His title run is one of an UNDERDOG. That is the type of champion he is. He is a small guy, not a huge monster, so would it REALLY make sense for him to beat up on huge established experienced guys like Batista and John Cena? I mean, put your favoritism aside and you see that it wouldnt make any sense for him to do so. In fact it would make Batista and Cena look like crap and Punk wont look much better either because the fans wont buy it that this skinny guy is suddenly unbeatable. It is not his character, his character is an underdog and it is what he does. He wins, but he wins by the hair on his neck and just holds the title by the strands of his fingers.

I will say that if he suddenly started beating down Cena and Batista, it would make the whole company look stupid.

Now ur next complaint is about Rey Mysterio's reign. Rey Mysterio was also booked like an underdog, a fighting champion that became a giant killer. It seems from ur complaints about Punk and Rey that the WWE booking is not the problem, its just that u dont like underdog champions. Well guess what, some people will hate and dislike dominant champions as well!
It is just a different style for variety.

As far as Edge's reign goes, he wasnt an underdog, but he was a sleezy slimeball that cheated to win his title. This is the heel version of an underdog basically, a guy who gets by the skin of his neck and manages to hold on to the gold (like JBL's reign)

Honestly I dont get what type of champion people want. If u get an underdog champion, everyone complaints that he isnt dominating. If you get a dominant monster champion, everyone complaints that the guy is a "superman" and is unbeatable. There is no pleasing some of u!

[Londoner]

Sebastian, you talk some sense but you still sound like a real douche.

[screech]

Sebastian, you talk some sense but you still sound like a real douche.

I'm glad someone else gets it.

[BigDaddyCool]

No, so far everyone but me or the people who completely agreed with me are wrong.

[Londoner]

Yeh everyones wrong but you BDC!

[BigDaddyCool]

No, TL you are not wrong, in that instance.

[Londoner]

I disagree.

[screech]

No, so far everyone but me or the people who completely agreed with me are wrong.

What a surprise.

[KingofOldSchool]

I think Rey Mysterio, Goldberg, babyface Randy Orton, the corpse of Chris Benoit, and CM Punk should form a stable of horribly booked World Heavyweight Champions.

[Londoner]

If cm punk loses the title within the next two months, then i'll agree it was horribly booked.

[screech]

I think Rey Mysterio, Goldberg, babyface Randy Orton, the corpse of Chris Benoit, and CM Punk should form a stable of horribly booked World Heavyweight Champions.

Now there's an idea, but I think it's too early to say that Punk has been horribly booked. Give him until SummerSlam and see how it goes.

[Mr. Pierre]

I like how they are booking Punk at this point. I think it would be a bit ridiculous to have him go over the likes of Batista and Kane, when just a few weeks ago he was losing to John Morrison.

Instead of having him build himself as a top dog while contending for a World Title, they are working backwards with him by having him gain credibility while he's Champion. I think it's pretty unique.

Hopefully WWE books this correctly (could be asking for too much there), and during Punk's reign you see him getting better and better in his matches to the point where he gains the respect of the roster and can win matches cleanly without interferences, DQs, etc.

[XL]

Sebastian - with his whole "It's not WWE that's at fault, it's the fans" thing - could so get a job in WWE right now.

[Ninti the Mad]

Sebastian has a point though.

You cant have him all of a sudden start winning all his matches when he really hasnt proven himself yet.

Good booking, I say.

[BigDaddyCool]

I still think they should have had Edge get a rematch starting out against Punk. I could see Punk getting a legit win over Edge. Then Punk would have had a title defence against a mainevent player. Then they could have started all this jockeying for a shot a Punk with Punk trying to look like a contender against the likes of JBL, Cena, Kane, and Batista.

[Johnny Vegas]

Both Sebastian and BDC have a point. It's just a matter of who will Punk cleanly defeat first. With Batista, i don't see Punk getting him on his shoulders but it could be like Bats is trying to do a move off of the turnbuckle and Punk gets him from there.

In a way, i'm thinking that is probably why Vince is so obsessed with big men because they won't have a problem with ANY moveset and/or finisher.

[Innovator]

Vegas, Punk got Bats up on RAW, did get the GTS but he got him up

[Theo Dious]

Your complaint is both wrong and irrelevant!

You see, you are lacking some logic in how things work. These guys are not established main eventers, they are new to the scene.

So would it be LOGICAL for them, to suddenly start beating ESTABLISHED main eventers all over the place when they couldnt beat them before JUST BECAUSE they won a title? This has absolutely no ground in logic and doesnt make sense, so I dont understand ur complaint. I mean, it would make the current main eventers look like crap if some guy starts beating them just because he won the gold. It would be something fishy to the fans and dumb booking.

Let me adress ur complaints one by one.

Lets first take current world champ CM Punk. His title run is one of an UNDERDOG. That is the type of champion he is. He is a small guy, not a huge monster, so would it REALLY make sense for him to beat up on huge established experienced guys like Batista and John Cena? I mean, put your favoritism aside and you see that it wouldnt make any sense for him to do so. In fact it would make Batista and Cena look like crap and Punk wont look much better either because the fans wont buy it that this skinny guy is suddenly unbeatable. It is not his character, his character is an underdog and it is what he does. He wins, but he wins by the hair on his neck and just holds the title by the strands of his fingers.

I will say that if he suddenly started beating down Cena and Batista, it would make the whole company look stupid.

Now ur next complaint is about Rey Mysterio's reign. Rey Mysterio was also booked like an underdog, a fighting champion that became a giant killer. It seems from ur complaints about Punk and Rey that the WWE booking is not the problem, its just that u dont like underdog champions. Well guess what, some people will hate and dislike dominant champions as well!
It is just a different style for variety.

As far as Edge's reign goes, he wasnt an underdog, but he was a sleezy slimeball that cheated to win his title. This is the heel version of an underdog basically, a guy who gets by the skin of his neck and manages to hold on to the gold (like JBL's reign)

Honestly I dont get what type of champion people want. If u get an underdog champion, everyone complaints that he isnt dominating. If you get a dominant monster champion, everyone complaints that the guy is a "superman" and is unbeatable. There is no pleasing some of u!

Are you a Noid sock?

Basically, everything that you said is an argument for why you should wait to put a belt on a guy until he's capable of being a proper champion. There isn't wrong with a questionable underdog champion, but it's been way to frequent of late. Additionally, face underdog champions shouldn't get their wins through interference or bad finishes, they should get them through unexpected strokes of skill and intellect.

Eddue Gurrerro was an underdog champion. He beat Brock Lesnar, a guy seemingly five times his size. Yes, it was partially via interference, but the actual win came through an innovative reversal of the F-5 into a devestating DDT. He beat Angle, a guy who was on paper his definite superior, by outsmarting him within the boundaries of his own gimmick. That is a good way to book an underdog champion. Having a face hold onto his title via endess deus ex machinas is not good booking no matter how you slice it. Hell, in a lot of ways, Bret Hart was an underdog champion most of the time. His first title win came when he was working to elevate himself from IC level, and he beat Ric Flair, a legend even 15 years ago. Some of his top feuds were against guys who dwarfed him; Yokozuna, Undertaker, Diesel. While not all of his retentions were entirely clean (see Bret vs Taker, Royal Rumble '96,) he wasn't the sort of guy who kept his title by lucky break after lucky break. When Bret was an underdog, you knew he at least had a chance to win via outsmarting his opponents. He could be an underdog without being a paper champion.*

I never minded that Chris Jericho's Undisputed Title reign was smattered with unclean victories, except that only two years previous he had been booked as a guy who should have taken the belt away from HHH, and just the previous summer he had been booked as a credible threat to Steve bah-gawd-BBQSawce Austin, and suddenly became weak and useless against those same two guys (plus the Rock) due to nothing more than a heel turn. Yeah, heels cheat, I get it, but making a guy who had been at that level of strength into a total punk is also shitty booking. The ins and outs of that title reign were more appropriate to Kurt Angle at that time.

*Note to TPWW Kliq members: No, I'm not praising Bret, I'm just pointing out how much better he was booked back then as opposed to the "underdog" champions of today.

[darkfyre]

i really am sick of Batista getting title shots he's been trying to get back that title since the undertaker won it off him and its bull shit some other people should get the title shots not the ones that get it over and over and over again. i think that punk winning the title is a good thing cus there needed to be a new champ anyway edge sucks so bad that i am glad he lost to a half way decent wrestler

[BigDaddyCool]

Are you a Noid sock?

Basically, everything that you said is an argument for why you should wait to put a belt on a guy until he's capable of being a proper champion. There isn't wrong with a questionable underdog champion, but it's been way to frequent of late. Additionally, face underdog champions shouldn't get their wins through interference or bad finishes, they should get them through unexpected strokes of skill and intellect.

Eddue Gurrerro was an underdog champion. He beat Brock Lesnar, a guy seemingly five times his size. Yes, it was partially via interference, but the actual win came through an innovative reversal of the F-5 into a devestating DDT. He beat Angle, a guy who was on paper his definite superior, by outsmarting him within the boundaries of his own gimmick. That is a good way to book an underdog champion. Having a face hold onto his title via endess deus ex machinas is not good booking no matter how you slice it. Hell, in a lot of ways, Bret Hart was an underdog champion most of the time. His first title win came when he was working to elevate himself from IC level, and he beat Ric Flair, a legend even 15 years ago. Some of his top feuds were against guys who dwarfed him; Yokozuna, Undertaker, Diesel. While not all of his retentions were entirely clean (see Bret vs Taker, Royal Rumble '96,) he wasn't the sort of guy who kept his title by lucky break after lucky break. When Bret was an underdog, you knew he at least had a chance to win via outsmarting his opponents. He could be an underdog without being a paper champion.*

I never minded that Chris Jericho's Undisputed Title reign was smattered with unclean victories, except that only two years previous he had been booked as a guy who should have taken the belt away from HHH, and just the previous summer he had been booked as a credible threat to Steve bah-gawd-BBQSawce Austin, and suddenly became weak and useless against those same two guys (plus the Rock) due to nothing more than a heel turn. Yeah, heels cheat, I get it, but making a guy who had been at that level of strength into a total punk is also shitty booking. The ins and outs of that title reign were more appropriate to Kurt Angle at that time.

*Note to TPWW Kliq members: No, I'm not praising Bret, I'm just pointing out how much better he was booked back then as opposed to the "underdog" champions of today.

Never seen deus ex machinas used in a wrestling debate before...literary debates yes, but not wrestling. Get out of here with your book learnin'.

[darkfyre]

lol

[Kane Knight]

Are you a Noid sock?


Noid defending WWE with one of his rants?

[Theo Dious]

Noid defending WWE with one of his rants?

I thought he might be trying to swerve us. Alternately, he could just be clinically fucking nuts by now.

[thedamndest]

Has anybody answered BDC's question by calling the belts "paperweights" yet? Because that would be witty, and if it hasn't happened, put me down for that.

[Kane Knight]

I thought he might be trying to swerve us. Alternately, he could just be clinically fucking nuts by now.

God, he barely has one personality. Could you imagine his brain trying to pull off two?

[Theo Dious]

Has anybody answered BDC's question by calling the belts "paperweights" yet? Because that would be witty, and if it hasn't happened, put me down for that.

You would be so cool if you'd just ditch the Albert avatar.

God, he barely has one personality. Could you imagine his brain trying to pull off two?

The point is conceded.

[Destor]

The Albert avy must NEVER go

[Destor]

EVER

[thedamndest]

Changing my avatar would require more than a modicum of effort so it isn't going to happen. If you'll recall, the reason I chose Albert was because he was on the very first page of the TPWW avatar list and I am lazy. Also in real life I am highly indistinguishable from A-Train, which is sometimes a curse, sometimes a blessing.

[thedamndest]

Another reason why I can't change my avatar Tedious: do you remember that time in casual when you said you were going to have sex with a girl who was like 6'8" and I said "...don't forget your moon boots!" Some things you just don't change.

[Xero]

lol, moon boots.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Are you a Noid sock?

No, he's not, because I completely disagree with Sebastian and all the points he has made. The guy is not an idiot, but he is missing one key fact:

The World Champion is the cornerstone and focus of your company.

As the World Heavyweight Champion on RAW, CM Punk should be the top guy. That is it. Sure, he won the belt with the Money in the Bank title shot, but if he isn't meant to be good enough to keep the belt, then he should have lost it to JBL on his first night as Champion. An unworthy wrestler holding the belt makes it look crappy, the wrestler holding it forever tainted, and it does no good for anybody.

I agree with BDC, in that Edge should have gotten a contractual rematch for the World Heavyweight Championship. Hell, they could have done it at Saturday Night's Main Event. Edge has been "fired" by Vickie Guerrero, so he works with the RAW brand, and tries to win his belt back from Punk, but Punk retains cleanly. Then Vickie could have re-signed him, to which Edge was thankful, and then Vickie could have re-instated The Undertaker for that shit.

I didn't mind the interference from CTC in the match against JBL. It was needed to cancel out the security. A few minutes without the security with Punk and JBL going back and forth would have been appreciated. Then the GTS gets it done, and Punk retains. Even though Snitsky is not World Heavyweight Championship challenger material, CM Punk should have put the title on the line against him anyway, to make Punk look like a fighting champion. The countout against Kane was clever, and it kept Kane looking good, and Punk out-smarted the beast. Again, this could have been a WHC match.

The Great American Bash could have at least seen Punk roll-up Batista after Bats underestimates Punk. The result against William Regal was right, and it shows growth, because Regal went over Punk in the King of the Ring Tournament. Punk should have probably gotten in more offense, though, if reports on the match are correct.

A thought to end on:

A World Champion should never be an underdog. The World Champion, by definition, is the best in the world, and therefore should be expected to win all their matches. It is just how they win. Punk does not look smarter, stronger, faster or better drawing with Batista because Kane interferes. Punk needs to be put over as having some quality that allows him to be World Heavyweight Champion, and it needs to be emphasised.

[Mr. Nerfect]

God, he barely has one personality. Could you imagine his brain trying to pull off two?

KK is the master of multiple personalities. He also triples as the master of academic learning difficulties and illiteracy.

[Kane Knight]

KK is the master of multiple personalities. He also triples as the master of academic learning difficulties and illiteracy.Oh, the irony, coming from Noid.

I mean, that ain't even the pot calling the kettle black, it's more the B flat calling the C black. :lol:

[The Mackem]

Yeah but Punk outpopped DX, or did he?

*runs*

[Kane Knight]

Yeah but Punk outpopped DX, or did he?

*runs*

Great. Now 50 other people are going to claim I brought it up. :lol: