I hate the IWC sometimes...

[JT]

It figures that it would be a select few that can take something like a Jericho title reign and turn it from my first mark out moment in years to calling it another mistake on the part of the WWE. Last night I watch an event that I only cared to watch because I had the chance to see it for free. I had no interest in the matches, I hated the scramble concept, and even HBK vs. Jericho wasn't doing it for me. Yet in the end, it was one of my favorite shows in recent memory, left a good taste in my mouth, and the first time I've genually wanted to see Raw in more than a year.

However, I come on here and listen to the TPWW master's of discussion and debate moan over tiny details that somehow don't make sense to them...

"It figures that WWE would make CM Punk lose the title in such a weak fashion"

Oh, you mean where he was attacked by 4 guys and finished off with a move that usually places people off tv for months. Yea, really weak. Really does nothing for CM Punks career...except set him up in a program with Orton that can draw money without a World title in the picture, while at the same time pitting him against multiple wrestlers that will not only build a decent feud but strenthen CM Punk's character at the same time. Yea, WWE really dropped the ball on this idea.

"The way that Jericho won the championship make sense. Wasn't he destroyed earlier in the night?"

Yea, and Owen Hart beat Bret Hart at WMX, just a hour or 2 before Bret won the WWF Championship later in the night. Granted Owen didn't beat Bret to a pulp, but under the circumstances it worked. Jericho sold the injuries, was laid out through most of the match, and won when the opportunity presented itself. The match concept sucked to begin with, and whoever was winning wasn't proving anything. However, who better to win it then a heel who will do anything necessary to build his legacy in the WWE. As of fact, since HBK beat the crap out of Jericho earlier makes me love the title win more because it's kind of like spitting in HBK's eye. It's to almost say "hey HBK, you may have beat me up a bit, but you're career is still over, and I'm the World Champion". I love it...and literally bowed down with my friends to the new champ in the sneak victory.

"Blah blah blah"

Seriously, you piss me off sometimes you jaded fucks. I mean I bitch quite a bit myself, but some of this shit is stuff you people wanted forever. Jericho won a championship, CM Punk in in a decent program and didn't get jobbed out, and the show was pretty good. Tonight is the first Raw I've wanted to see in awhile, and I love that there is a thread on here about how people have no interest in seeing the show tonight.

I love you people.

[FourFifty]

I love you people.

We love you too.

[addy2hotty]

I believe that Bret Hart co-won a Royal Rumble with one working leg.

Just proof that the IWC are never happy. Punk's title reign hasn't worked, Jericho's character fit perfectly the way he won the title - no-one wants to see Batista, JBL or Mysterio as Champ and Kane is busy destroying Rey's soul.

Rey looked good though, didn't he - just a few weeks after being, seemingly, in a SAW type situation.

[Fox]

There are always naysayers and negative bastards who will talk anything down. There are people at my school who will argue for days about how The Dark Knight was slow, boring, plodding and didn't make enough sense, despite evidence to the contrary.

They're called "haters" and you just have to learn to ignore them. They try to take the shine out of your brand new car. Fuck them. They don't like ANYTHING.

[TerranRich]

THANK YOU, JT Kool.

Seriously, people just need to shut the fuck up about this. It's awesome. Enjoy it for what it is. It does nothing negative to Punk's awesomeness either. Or TBK's. ;)

[Suicidal Icon]

There will always be something for people to complain about. Seems to be easier than pointing out the good.

And I totally disagree with you.

[Juan]

It figures that it would be a select few that can take something like a Jericho title reign and turn it from my first mark out moment in years to calling it another mistake on the part of the WWE. Last night I watch an event that I only cared to watch because I had the chance to see it for free. I had no interest in the matches, I hated the scramble concept, and even HBK vs. Jericho wasn't doing it for me. Yet in the end, it was one of my favorite shows in recent memory, left a good taste in my mouth, and the first time I've genually wanted to see Raw in more than a year.

However, I come on here and listen to the TPWW master's of discussion and debate moan over tiny details that somehow don't make sense to them...

"It figures that WWE would make CM Punk lose the title in such a weak fashion"

Oh, you mean where he was attacked by 4 guys and finished off with a move that usually places people off tv for months. Yea, really weak. Really does nothing for CM Punks career...except set him up in a program with Orton that can draw money without a World title in the picture, while at the same time pitting him against multiple wrestlers that will not only build a decent feud but strenthen CM Punk's character at the same time. Yea, WWE really dropped the ball on this idea.

"The way that Jericho won the championship make sense. Wasn't he destroyed earlier in the night?"

Yea, and Owen Hart beat Bret Hart at WMX, just a hour or 2 before Bret won the WWF Championship later in the night. Granted Owen didn't beat Bret to a pulp, but under the circumstances it worked. Jericho sold the injuries, was laid out through most of the match, and won when the opportunity presented itself. The match concept sucked to begin with, and whoever was winning wasn't proving anything. However, who better to win it then a heel who will do anything necessary to build his legacy in the WWE. As of fact, since HBK beat the crap out of Jericho earlier makes me love the title win more because it's kind of like spitting in HBK's eye. It's to almost say "hey HBK, you may have beat me up a bit, but you're career is still over, and I'm the World Champion". I love it...and literally bowed down with my friends to the new champ in the sneak victory.

"Blah blah blah"

Seriously, you piss me off sometimes you jaded fucks. I mean I bitch quite a bit myself, but some of this shit is stuff you people wanted forever. Jericho won a championship, CM Punk in in a decent program and didn't get jobbed out, and the show was pretty good. Tonight is the first Raw I've wanted to see in awhile, and I love that there is a thread on here about how people have no interest in seeing the show tonight.

I love you people.

This is exactly how I felt last night after the PPV. You, sir, are 100% correct.

[thedamndest]

Agree to disagree.

[thedamndest]

Though I am pleased Jericho is champion. I just wish they would have gone about it better.

[Afterlife]

How?

[U-Warrior]

I liked all of it.

But I think that "are you watching tonight" thread is more about the fact that monday night football starts tonight.

[KYR]

JT makes some very good points (particularly those relating to storylines).

Makes sense and, in the main, I have to agree.

[Gertner]

Scotty Goldman should be champ. Come on, he wrestled for the porn fed of the IWC: ROH

[Dorkchop]

People on the internet will find a way to bitch about anything. I love and dislike parts about Jericho's new title victory. I'm happy he has the belt, sad CM Punk didn't lose it in a nice feud, but am excited to see if they get a couple of great matches out of this. Jericho holding the title makes me happy.

[TerranRich]

Honestly, and I know I'll catch a lot of shit for this... I think they need this time for the purpose of building CM Punk up properly. Having him go over Randy Orton in a classic feud over a period of months would do this, and then he can win the belt once again, this time the "right" way.

[MCEazy]

Nothing is ever good enough for the IWC unfortunately, I didn't see much in Punk as champ and am glad to see it on a monster heel whom hasn't held the title a million times in the past 3 years.

[FourFifty]

Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post.

Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post.

Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post.

Noid Post. Noid Post.


Noid Post.[/thread]

And by Noid's standards, the problem is solved and Val Venis is the first person in the hall of fame while holding the WHC.

But all Noid Post cracks aside, people are unhappy by nature.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Why did you bring me into this, FourFifty?

I agree with you, JT. Some of the creative decisions at Unforgiven were awesome. CM Punk gets out of his title reign without being made to look weak, and now gets to win the belt back sometime next year looking like a million bucks; Jericho is to the top man of the flagship show; and The Brian Kendrick was WWE Champion for a few minutes.

You have to accept that some people will always disagree with you, though. I'd question whether those people actually saw the PPV, and aren't just objecting in theory, but things are what they are sometimes.

[Londoner]

100% agree JT, other than a few things you didn't like about the ppv. People just bitch about everything, i don't take much notice of it anymore.

[TerranRich]

Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post.

Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post.

Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post. Noid Post.

Noid Post. Noid Post.


Noid Post.[/thread]

And by Noid's standards, the problem is solved and Val Venis is the first person in the hall of fame while holding the WHC.

But all Noid Post cracks aside, people are unhappy by nature.

Dude, seriously, what is your problem? Why even bring him up?

[BigDaddyCool]

Can someone explain to me how being stripped of a title after being attacked before a defence makes CM Punk look like a strong champion?

[Londoner]

He was attacked by more than one person you know?

[BigDaddyCool]

Being attacked by 4 guys then being stripped of your title doesn't make CM Punk look like a strong champion, or a million bucks. It makes him look like a victim of luck and curcumstance. Especially with the way he won the title in the first place.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Being attacked by 4 guys then being stripped of your title doesn't make CM Punk look like a strong champion, or a million bucks. It makes him look like a victim of luck and curcumstance. Especially with the way he won the title in the first place.

BDC, do you know what luck and circumstance mean? There was nothing "lucky" or "circumstantial" about what happened to CM Punk. The beat-down was deliberate, succinct and had a purpose: Take out CM Punk. To me, it seems very similar to when Austin got hit by a car.

Also, the way CM Punk won in the first place? Defeating the current World Heavyweight Champion, the current United States Champion, then WWE Tag Team Champion, Mr. Kennedy and MVP in a Ladder Match and then cashing in his shot at the smartest time possible taking full advantage of an opportunity presented to him?

[BigDaddyCool]

Noid, I'm going to be polite about this, because I'm trying something new.

CM Punk didn't loose the title in a test of skill, he was ready for the match, then he is attacked before the match. That sounds unlucky (unlucky is still luck). Then, instead of postoning the match or anything, they strip his title, which is retarded.

In any real sport, is a champion was attacked and unable to compete for the night, they would reschedule the match as long as the champion could defend his or her title within a certain time period. For exmaple, in boxing a champion has to defend their at least once every 180 days. So if something happened like, say someone came and beat the defending champion up right before the match and he was in no condition to defend his title, as long as there is plenty of time to reschedule the match and let him heal, they would simply postpone it.

Now, I know wrestling is fake, but they pretend to be real, so they should follow some sort of rule or else it doesn't make any sence. Now from what I understand, WWE has had a 90 day rule in the past, where a champion must defend his title ever 90 days, or he or she can be stripped of their title. CM Punk just defended his title at Summer Slam on 8/17/08, which was 21 days prior. Punk was attacked, thus unable to compete for the night. So he would have had 69 days to heal up and defend his title at a later date. Given the fact that Punk was just beat up, and from what I understand not seriously injured and looks like he will be competing soon, I thought I heard there is a cage match he is scheduled to be part of in the next few weeks. He could have easily come back and still defended his title in the time frame given. But no, they took the title off him with out him defending it. There for a victim of luck and circumstance.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Noid, I'm going to be polite about this, because I'm trying something new.

CM Punk didn't loose the title in a test of skill, he was ready for the match, then he is attacked before the match. That sounds unlucky (unlucky is still luck). Then, instead of postoning the match or anything, they strip his title, which is retarded.

In any real sport, is a champion was attacked and unable to compete for the night, they would reschedule the match as long as the champion could defend his or her title within a certain time period. For exmaple, in boxing a champion has to defend their at least once every 180 days. So if something happened like, say someone came and beat the defending champion up right before the match and he was in no condition to defend his title, as long as there is plenty of time to reschedule the match and let him heal, they would simply postpone it.

Now, I know wrestling is fake, but they pretend to be real, so they should follow some sort of rule or else it doesn't make any sence. Now from what I understand, WWE has had a 90 day rule in the past, where a champion must defend his title ever 90 days, or he or she can be stripped of their title. CM Punk just defended his title at Summer Slam on 8/17/08, which was 21 days prior. Punk was attacked, thus unable to compete for the night. So he would have had 69 days to heal up and defend his title at a later date. Given the fact that Punk was just beat up, and from what I understand not seriously injured and looks like he will be competing soon, I thought I heard there is a cage match he is scheduled to be part of in the next few weeks. He could have easily come back and still defended his title in the time frame given. But no, they took the title off him with out him defending it. There for a victim of luck and circumstance.

I appreciate you being polite, but I think you are way out-dated with this. The 90-day rule has not existed since ever. Now, whenever a champion cannot make a defense of the title, he is stripped of the belt.

Why does the WWE do this? Because there are PPVs, promised matches and a responsibility to put on the best show possible to the fans. A wrestler who gets injured (especially near the top) might be out of luck, but it'd be foolish for a General Manager to cop-out on a big promised match-up.

Are you telling me that you honestly would not have complained if Mike Adamle had come out and said "Punk is injured, so this match you paid for isn't going to happen"? It's a storyline that needs something to happen.

I still don't get your luck and circumstance points. If you're talking kayfabe, Punk is a victim of Orton and gang. That is all. If you're talking as far as the backstage dealings of the business go, then Punk just got shifted out of the World Heavyweight Title scene for another major feud.

What you seem to be saying is that Punk was unlucky because a rule that hasn't existed in years wasn't upheld?

[BigDaddyCool]

The rule has existed. Both Cena and Edge had their titles stripped from the because there were both injured and could in no way shape or form defend their titles in the 90 day time period, and that was just last year. BTW, I am talking kayfabe. As far as Punk being a victim of luck, he wasn't (in kayfabe) scheduled to get beat up before the match. He wasn't planning on it, it was out of his control, therefore that is circumstance and luck, not skill and free will.

Also, Adamle did come out and say the match everyone paid for won't be happening. The match people paid for had CM Punk in it, not Jericho. Another option would be have a 4 way match between the still healthy guy to see who would get a shot again Punk when he was healthy.

[Xero]

I'd just like to point out it's not exactly good business to bait and switch something like this where the leader of the brand is headlining your $40 PPV and he doesn't wrestle despite being advertised for weeks.

At the very least, the angle should have happened on RAW and the change announced before the PPV went live.

[BigDaddyCool]

If CM Punk was really injured, it would be one thing, but since this is all kayfabe, it is shitty booking. It pisses me off.

[thedamndest]

If anything, Punk's booking as champion has been consistent. He didn't really beat anybody to get the championship, his defenses consisted of beating JBL week after week, and he didn't really lose the championship either. There is a fine line between underdog and just plain underwhelming.

[Kane Knight]

People on the internet will find a way to bitch about anything.

You mean like this topic?

BAWWWWWWWW Some faceless douchebags on the internet are killing my enjoyment!

I know he's bitching about people bitching, and two wrongs always make a right, but the guy is actually complaining that his enjoyment is being affected by the dissatisfaction of others. Nobody has that kind of power unless you give it to them.

[darkpower]

You mean like this topic?

BAWWWWWWWW Some faceless douchebags on the internet are killing my enjoyment!

I know he's bitching about people bitching, and two wrongs always make a right, but the guy is actually complaining that his enjoyment is being affected by the dissatisfaction of others. Nobody has that kind of power unless you give it to them.

Like you never pout and bitch about anyone on the internet, do you?

You don't actually post your spazz outs, you take it to the rep sheet. :lol:

[darkpower]

By the way, JT, you're 100% correct. The IWC is NEVER HAPPY!! We've known this for years. Always finding a reason to bitch about anything, even when the thing they bitch about is what they wanted to begin with.

My figuring is: We're not happy unless we bitch, because of this equation:

IWC + BITCHING + INTERNETS = PAGE HITS

[IC Champion]

If anything, Punk's booking as champion has been consistent. He didn't really beat anybody to get the championship, his defenses consisted of beating JBL week after week, and he didn't really lose the championship either. There is a fine line between underdog and just plain underwhelming.

I agree with the statement above.

[darkpower]

If anything, Punk's booking as champion has been consistent. He didn't really beat anybody to get the championship, his defenses consisted of beating JBL week after week, and he didn't really lose the championship either. There is a fine line between underdog and just plain underwhelming.

See "The Booking Of Rey Mysterio's Title Reign" circa 2006.

Again, it's not that any of these champions that aren't 300 pounds can't make good champions, it's that the WWE seems to not want them to look like creditable champs for some reason. And then the IWC bitches because they want the title OFF of the person the WWE books badly and fucks up the cred of, completely ignoring that it's not the champ's fault he's not looking like a creditable champ.

Why the IWC seems to be giving the WWE booking a free pass when these types of champ reigns happen is beyond me!

[BigDaddyCool]

See "The Booking Of Rey Mysterio's Title Reign" circa 2006.

Again, it's not that any of these champions that aren't 300 pounds can't make good champions, it's that the WWE seems to not want them to look like creditable champs for some reason. And then the IWC bitches because they want the title OFF of the person the WWE books badly and fucks up the cred of, completely ignoring that it's not the champ's fault he's not looking like a creditable champ.

Why the IWC seems to be giving the WWE booking a free pass when these types of champ reigns happen is beyond me!

Besides for this Mysterio title reign (I have no idea what you are talking about, he never had a title riegn) I agree. WWE doesn't try to book anyone besides Bat, Cena, HHH, and Undertaker as strong.

Part of the problem is that there are no clean wins anymore. The only way to build someone up, is have them win cleanly over other guys. But everyone has to have a fucking unbeaten streak (not a winning streak, an unbeaten streak). So no one looks good.

[darkpower]

Besides for this Mysterio title reign (I have no idea what you are talking about, he never had a title riegn)

I'm sorry, I meant "The Booking Of The Ghost Of Eddie Gurrero's Title Reign" circa 2006.

[Mr. Nerfect]

The rule has existed. Both Cena and Edge had their titles stripped from the because there were both injured and could in no way shape or form defend their titles in the 90 day time period, and that was just last year. BTW, I am talking kayfabe. As far as Punk being a victim of luck, he wasn't (in kayfabe) scheduled to get beat up before the match. He wasn't planning on it, it was out of his control, therefore that is circumstance and luck, not skill and free will.

Also, Adamle did come out and say the match everyone paid for won't be happening. The match people paid for had CM Punk in it, not Jericho. Another option would be have a 4 way match between the still healthy guy to see who would get a shot again Punk when he was healthy.

I think you are making up ths specifics of why Edge and John Cena were stripped of their titles. No "90-day" limit was mentioned. They were just injured, and forfeited the belt. Also, Punk wasn't stripped of the title. He was officially World Heavyweight Champion when he went into the match, but he just was not healthy enough to compete, so a fifth man went in there and essentially wrote-off his chances of defending.

Randy Orton made it an inevitability that Punk lost his World Heavyweight Championship at Unforgiven. It's not like Punk chose not to compete because of a minor inconvenience. There is going to be major heat there. Punk will get to run through The Princes of Pro-Wrestling, and look like a star as the WWE builds him up correctly. The moving of the title off Punk implies that the WWE wants to keep building him, which I though people around these parts would be happy with.

The biggest difference between Rey Mysterio's title reign and CM Punk's title reign is this: Rey Mysterio was pretty much getting booed when he was World Heavyweight Champion; CM Punk has gotten consistently more popular over the weeks. Punk's World Heavyweight Title reign has achieved what it needed to, and now they are switching the belt over to the best heel in the WWE, who is involved in the best program in the WWE, all the while keeping Punk from being pinned and making him look like a huge victim heading into his new top-tier feud.

If Punk had lost the WHT any other way, he'd have looked like a joke. It'd look like the WWE withdrawing from pushing Punk, and the whole "he always manages to scrape through" thing would be deflated, and Punk's title reign would have had nothing but a few months going for it. This way, Punk can claim that he should still be World Heavyweight Champion if there was justice in the world.

[Afterlife]

I do recall the mentioning of the 90-day deal with Cena and Edge. However, I will also point out that was under different kayfabe management.

[BigDaddyCool]

Thank you AL.

Also Noid, shut up, you are dumb and do not get it.

[Kane Knight]

There has been a "defense" clause on the books for years. It's been mentioned several times in the past couple of years, though this is WWE, and they ignore the fuck out of things all the time.

[BigDaddyCool]

I've been checking around, and it looks like they have mentioned 30-day, 60-day and 90-day rules. Still Punk had a few days to recover.

[thedamndest]

I DEFINITELY remember the 30-day clause for HBK back in the day for the IC belt.

[Rob]

Jericho being beaten half to death and then winning a world title 90 minutes later makes zero sense. Cry all you want about people having an opinion on it but it doesn't change the fact that it was poor booking.

[IC Champion]

I dont know why people are bitching about "poor" booking all of a sudden.

[Xero]

Just because it involved a positive for Jericho doesn't make it acceptable.

And Rob is right-on.

[Kane Knight]

Like you never pout and bitch about anyone on the internet, do you?

You don't actually post your spazz outs, you take it to the rep sheet. :lol:

LOL. Only darkpower would take something so hard. :)

[IC Champion]

Just because it involved a positive for Jericho doesn't make it acceptable.

And Rob is right-on.

Wrestling has been booked poorly for years now, I don't see how this was any worse than whats been booked in the last few months.

[BigDaddyCool]

Cause this is just piss poor booking, while everything else has been mildly crappy.

[Xero]

Yes, wrestling has been booked poorly for years. It's been unacceptable. Chris Jericho (and Punk) was booked poorly at Unforgiven. It was unacceptable.

I don't see your point unless it's that Jericho's title win is just more shit in a bigger sea of shit.

[thedamndest]

I don't get why everyone was so stoked for Punk to win it, and now everyone is so stoked for him to lose it. Since when does taking the belt off a guy make him more credible? All I've heard is "But he's going to feud with Orton when he gets back!" He could have done that anyway as champion.

[Xero]

Plus there's the fact that Punk is essentially being fed to Orton for Orton's main event feud. If Punk goes over in the feud I'd be shocked, short of Orton doing something retarded, drug or behavior-wise.

[Kane Knight]

I don't get why everyone was so stoked for Punk to win it, and now everyone is so stoked for him to lose it. Since when does taking the belt off a guy make him more credible? All I've heard is "But he's going to feud with Orton when he gets back!" He could have done that anyway as champion.

This is the same IWC who was stoked for Punk to win it, then came up with ridiculous conspiracy theories about Vince holding him down (Despite numerous reports that Vince LOVES Punk and the fact that he's been their PR darling through the drug shit). Shock?

[Mr. Nerfect]

I DEFINITELY remember the 30-day clause for HBK back in the day for the IC belt.

I never said there has NEVER been a numbered day rule for titles, the WWE has just seemingly done away with them. 30 days is the most recent one, but Michelle McCool violated that after winning the Divas Championship. The time restraints on defences have been ignored, and simply have ceased to exist in kayfabe.

They are a device of convenience. It is a scripted show, and the WWE will only bring days into it when it suits them. It didn't suit them when Dean Malenko was Light Heavyweight Champion back in 2001, and it doesn't suit them now.

Besides, CM Punk wasn't even stripped of the title. The RAW main event for the World Heavyweight Title went on without him. As for why people wanted to see the World Heavyweight Title put on Punk, and are now happy to see it taken off him, there are a number of reasons:

1) Those people are looking at the full picture. They see CM Punk being protected in the way he lost the title, they seem him looking great against Orton and they seem him winning his second World Heavyweight Title sometime next year, and it being done in an epic way that many bitched his first way wasn't (although with Money in the Bank, it wasn't meant to be an epic win).

2) The Chris Jericho vs. Shawn Michaels program, which has been the best part of the WWE for months, is now the central program of the flagship show. This is where attention deserves to be focused, and Jericho's done such a great job making over his heel character that he truly does deserve another run with the big gold belt.

3) The WWE are just unable to book CM Punk's reign correctly at this time. They have given him too many fluke wins, and they've done a good job at putting too many question marks next to his name. They could try an re-focus it against Orton, while Jericho flounders around doing nothing, and things go on as expected, but even if Punk ended up walking out of the Unforgiven as WWE Champion, the nature of the Scramble Match presented it as a chance win. The WWE decided to be bold, end the reign of Punk without a pinfall or submission against him name (hell, without a loss even to his name), and put him in a feud with Randy Orton, which will be far more compelling without the title. Now they can resume the reign at a later date, when Punk is more established, and comfortable in the main event scene. It's better to end the reign with a question mark beside it, and a note saying that Punk was cheated out of his belt, rather than ending it with a full-stop saying Punk was a Rey Mysterio-like champion.

[Mr. Nerfect]

This is the same IWC who was stoked for Punk to win it, then came up with ridiculous conspiracy theories about Vince holding him down (Despite numerous reports that Vince LOVES Punk and the fact that he's been their PR darling through the drug shit). Shock?

That's very exaggerated. Reports did come out that Punk had heat on him, and that guys like Triple H and Arn Anderson loved making fun of Punk. I didn't personal buy into them, and instead chose to look at Vince liking (I'd never use the word "love") Punk due to Vince mentioning Punk by name as a future star for the company, in the same interview where Vince called Randy Orton "Bob Orton's son."

I don't recall Punk ever being a PR darling of the WWE, either. That's always been John Cena. People assumed that Punk could get a push because of the drug shit, and it turns out he did, but I don't ever recall the WWE saying "Look at our drug free guy!"

[Afterlife]

Thank you AL.

Also Noid, shut up, you are dumb and do not get it.

Anytime. :y:

[Mr. Nerfect]

Plus there's the fact that Punk is essentially being fed to Orton for Orton's main event feud. If Punk goes over in the feud I'd be shocked, short of Orton doing something retarded, drug or behavior-wise.

Wait and see what happens, no? Sure, Orton could win this feud, but I personally think it is going to be used to help Punk out, as well. If the idea was to feed Punk to someone, he'd have done the clean job for the title.

Also, you do realise you just said you can't see CM Punk winning "short of Orton doing something retarded, drug or behavior-wise"? We are talking about Orton here -- why can't you see Punk winning this feud?

[Mr. Nerfect]

Jericho being beaten half to death and then winning a world title 90 minutes later makes zero sense. Cry all you want about people having an opinion on it but it doesn't change the fact that it was poor booking.

Did you see the PPV, Rob? If so, then you'd have picked up that Jericho didn't get any offense in the main event. He basically took a spear from Batista, and looked too hurt to be a threat.

You'd have also picked up that Jericho entered the match as a rebound from his embarrassing loss to HBK earlier. It was Jericho posing the question to HBK "Do you really think you've won the war?"

Jericho was in there for five minutes, and was far from the shining star offense-wise in the match. Jericho's presence made perfect sense for the mere fact he could convince Mike Adamle to let him into the match (he has a recent fall over CM Punk while he was World Heavyweight Champion), and that he was only in there five minutes and played it smart. Does it somewhat undermine the beat-down Shawn Michaels put on Jericho earlier? Yes, but that is the point of it. It was Jericho taking a kick to the teeth and then gritting them, realising they are all there, and taunting Shawn Michaels by telling him it didn't hurt.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Thank you AL.

Also Noid, shut up, you are dumb and do not get it.

No, I get it. What you are saying is that the WWE should have busted out a flexible "rule" they modify and ignore whenever it suits them to play out the injury angle, and not have the World Heavyweight Title defended for 69 days.

Look, if you are unable to accept that the length a champion can go without defending the title changes more-so than the cruiserweight weight limit in the WWE, then look at it this way:

Mike Adamle is meant to be an idiot General Manager. Do you really think he understands the nuances of championship lore? No, he cares about his "Adamle Original" and presenting a World Heavyweight Title match when he advertised one. Punk is the variable, the World Heavyweight Title is not.

[Afterlife]

That's kinda what I meant in terms of different management. It was Adamle's call, not the company's. He made the decision without there consent to show that he can handle big situations. He's still new and people still think he's a goober, so he's attempting to prove his worth. At least, that's how his character is appearing to me.

[Juan]

Michelle McCool should've been stripped of the Divas title a few weeks ago :mad:

[Loose Cannon]

I saw the PPV. I thought the attack on Punk was a great way to take the belt off of him without making him lose the belt. It's been done in wrestling before and it sets up a chase program. and it can be a chase for the title or towards a goal lik defeating Orton. Jericho winning was well deserved for him having the feud of the year with HBK. Poor booking or not, whatever. They can book the shittiest of the shittiest and I've learned over the past few years that the WWE will contnue to generate $$$ for whatever they throw out on camera. It doesn't matter anymore. They've become so huge that the company could give two shits if thier program is logically correct

speaking of credibility though, if you want to have that argument, I think the whole scramle match really lessens the Title's cred. For fuck's sake, The belt goes back and forth with people getting beat left and right. It's insane. The belt has been a prop forever, but it really became a prop in those matches. how the heck do you look strong coming out of that match?? I think Punk was definately better off not working that match tbh. it's built for a sneaky pinfall like Jericho's.

anyway, on the topic, just don't take the comments on here to heart. enjoy the show or don't enjoy the show, but don't let a message board get to you

[Afterlife]

Michelle McCool should've been stripped.

[/totally not gay, bro]

[Juan]

OH NO you didn't

[TerranRich]

I'm sorry, I still don't see how CM Punk being stripped of a title after being taken out by 4 guys suddenly means he's weaker for it. Maybe it's just me.

[Juan]

I'm sorry, I still don't see how CM Punk being stripped of a title after being taken out by 4 guys suddenly means he's weaker for it. Maybe it's just me.

It's not just you.

[thedamndest]

I agree with your points 2 and 3, Noid. Jericho/Michaels has been the best program Raw has had to offer in a long time. And I see that they did want to get the title off of Punk and Jericho is the best choice based on the fact that A) the aforementioned reason B) he isn't Batista. As far as long-term Punk, I agree that we will have to wait and see how he is used, but for right now agree to disagree on the being kicked in the head situation. They booked him fine in ECW, but as soon as he got to Raw it's like they've been afraid to give him the ball.

[Afterlife]

But did you ever say how you woulda done it?

[TerranRich]

I think this is the perfect way to address Punk having won the championship in a so-called "fluke" match, as long as they use the time to build up a solid feud with Randy Orton. Maybe Orton gets the belt, and then Punk can win it in a legit feud.

[thedamndest]

But did you ever say how you woulda done it?
I suggested a couple things in another thread (don't remember which one, sorry). One was just have Punk get beat up and RKO'ed, but not punted (since punting is what puts people on the shelf) and come out and fight. You could take the title off him pretty easily then and he still wrestles.

Another was he does get punted but still makes it down to the ring and gets speared right off. From there he basically does what Jericho does, ie lays outside the ring and wins at the last second. I then said he would be stripped the next night and Raw has a Gold Rush tourney which Jericho wins.

I don't know if I posted it, but there could have been a scenario where nothing happens to Punk, but Kane goes and kills Rey. Jericho replaces Rey and Orton and Co attack Punk on the outside during the match.

Or they just have the match and Punk either wins or loses clean. A win would have been bigger than anything in his entire reign, at this point.

[Afterlife]

Not bad ideas at all, sir. :y:

Btw, "killing Rey" was hyperbole, right?

[TerranRich]

No, I think he meant literally. Like run him over with a Hummer and blow up his limo.

[Mr. Nerfect]

I saw the PPV. I thought the attack on Punk was a great way to take the belt off of him without making him lose the belt. It's been done in wrestling before and it sets up a chase program. and it can be a chase for the title or towards a goal lik defeating Orton. Jericho winning was well deserved for him having the feud of the year with HBK. Poor booking or not, whatever. They can book the shittiest of the shittiest and I've learned over the past few years that the WWE will contnue to generate $$$ for whatever they throw out on camera. It doesn't matter anymore. They've become so huge that the company could give two shits if thier program is logically correct

speaking of credibility though, if you want to have that argument, I think the whole scramle match really lessens the Title's cred. For fuck's sake, The belt goes back and forth with people getting beat left and right. It's insane. The belt has been a prop forever, but it really became a prop in those matches. how the heck do you look strong coming out of that match?? I think Punk was definately better off not working that match tbh. it's built for a sneaky pinfall like Jericho's.

anyway, on the topic, just don't take the comments on here to heart. enjoy the show or don't enjoy the show, but don't let a message board get to you

Someone who speaks sense.

[Mr. Nerfect]

I agree with your points 2 and 3, Noid. Jericho/Michaels has been the best program Raw has had to offer in a long time. And I see that they did want to get the title off of Punk and Jericho is the best choice based on the fact that A) the aforementioned reason B) he isn't Batista. As far as long-term Punk, I agree that we will have to wait and see how he is used, but for right now agree to disagree on the being kicked in the head situation. They booked him fine in ECW, but as soon as he got to Raw it's like they've been afraid to give him the ball.

I'll concede to that. I'm sure the WWE could fuck up Punk very easily. I don't think this "horrible booking," though. They didn't want to shove Punk down our throats as a Superman, so we're getting a more human and fallible Punk. At least, I hope that is the reason for it. If we do see Punk continuously getting bitched, I'll agree with you, but I don't think it's a misstep so far.

As for those suggestions you made. While I don't think they are bad, you still have similar problems in all of them. If Punk took a beat-down, went out there and lost the title, he wouldn't prove anything other than he is stupid, can't quit when he should, and that he can't power through these things. If he got taken out mid-match, it would still be him losing the title because he couldn't handle things. Punk needed to win that Scramble, but if they took the title from him on RAW, it'd be a repeat of the strippings Cena and Batista have had. Punk would also look far too untouchable (having made it through hell) to really have a big issue with Orton and co.

I think this is the most intense way to add immediate fuel to the Punk/Orton fire.

[Rob]

Did you see the PPV, Rob? If so, then you'd have picked up that Jericho didn't get any offense in the main event. He basically took a spear from Batista, and looked too hurt to be a threat.

You'd have also picked up that Jericho entered the match as a rebound from his embarrassing loss to HBK earlier. It was Jericho posing the question to HBK "Do you really think you've won the war?"

Jericho was in there for five minutes, and was far from the shining star offense-wise in the match. Jericho's presence made perfect sense for the mere fact he could convince Mike Adamle to let him into the match (he has a recent fall over CM Punk while he was World Heavyweight Champion), and that he was only in there five minutes and played it smart. Does it somewhat undermine the beat-down Shawn Michaels put on Jericho earlier? Yes, but that is the point of it. It was Jericho taking a kick to the teeth and then gritting them, realising they are all there, and taunting Shawn Michaels by telling him it didn't hurt.

Yeah I saw it. Why would I be commenting on something I didn't see?

Jericho got a fluke title win after getting the living piss kicked out of him by Shawn Michaels. And it's bollocks saying it's taunting Michaels by telling him it didn't hurt. Him showing his bruises on Raw immediately reject that idea.

The majority of fans think it's shitty booking. If you think it isn't then good for you. Nobody should be throwing hissy fits over people having opinions over something like this. It's not like it's like the arguement about how it would be easier to forgive Chris Benoit for being a cold hearted killer than forgiving Hulk Hogan for the perception he is a jerk.

[Rob]

I saw the PPV. I thought the attack on Punk was a great way to take the belt off of him without making him lose the belt.

If it was Shawn Michaels or Triple H not dropping a belt in the ring in this manner, people wouldn't be saying it was a good way of getting the belt off the champion and you know it.

[Juan]

That would probably be because Triple H and Shawn Michaels are established stars.

[Afterlife]

Majority? Or some pissy fans unhappy that Jericho, who they fevrishly complained wasn't in the Scramble, got the win without looking like the most dominant force imaginable? I have yet to see anything wrong with how this was done. That's not to say I don't recognize other possibilities. But I think we may be overreacting a bit. "We", of course, meaning "you".

[Afterlife]

If it was Shawn Michaels or Triple H not dropping a belt in the ring in this manner, people wouldn't be saying it was a good way of getting the belt off the champion and you know it.

That would probably be because Triple H and Shawn Michaels are established stars.

Yeah, I'd say that about sums it up. :y:

[Rob]

Majority? Or some pissy fans unhappy that Jericho, who they fevrishly complained wasn't in the Scramble, got the win without looking like the most dominant force imaginable? I have yet to see anything wrong with how this was done. That's not to say I don't recognize other possibilities. But I think we may be overreacting a bit. "We", of course, meaning "you".

Fucking idiot.

Your champion needs to look strong. Punk title run was a failure because he was booked weak. Same with Jericho's first run. I'd rather Jericho not even be in the match and put the belt on one of the others. Or have Michaels be the 5th guy and win the title. No champion in the history of wrestling, boxing or MMA (and it's all the same so don't argue it ain't) has drawn money as a weak champion. Not a single one.

Some people understand wrestling booking is used to MAKE MONEY. Some don't. You are obviously the latter.

[Rob]

That would probably be because Triple H and Shawn Michaels are established stars.

So is Steve Austin but nobody would bitch half as much if it was him.

[Juan]

Because Steve Austin is an established SUPERTSTAR.

[Afterlife]

Fucking idiot.

Your champion needs to look strong. Punk title run was a failure because he was booked weak. Same with Jericho's first run. I'd rather Jericho not even be in the match and put the belt on one of the others. Or have Michaels be the 5th guy and win the title. No champion in the history of wrestling, boxing or MMA (and it's all the same so don't argue it ain't) has drawn money as a weak champion. Not a single one.

Some people understand wrestling booking is used to MAKE MONEY. Some don't. You are obviously the latter.

It's your sunny attitude that makes you so desirable to converse with; you know that, right?

Also, had Punk been given more than JBL to beat on, I'm sure he could have looked plenty strong. And taking the title off of him, even in the ridiculous Scramble match, would have made him look stronger? Also, Jericho's match with HBM did make him look pretty tough. And his title win made him look like a fucking weasel. So, he's a resiliant, sneaky heel...and that's bad?


Don't get me wrong; I know Punk's title run has been less than stellar, to say the least. But I'd hardly call it a failure, because it gives him something to build on down the road. I'd definitely say it gave him a solid base to work with, and if that's considered failure, then I think we need to take a moment and define our terms.

[Rob]

It drew no money. He wasn't main eventing shows. He wasn't taken seriously. You make the base before you put him on top. A top without a solid base crumbles no? Failure. Bottom line.

And you wanna look at your own attitude before you comment on mine.

[Afterlife]

My attitude toward you is apathetic at best. Nothing to worry about.

As for Punk's title run, I'd hardly say he wasn't taken seriously. Doing him differently, even as an experiment, does not make him a failure because, as I said, he now has the base upon which to build. I see parallels in his first run to Edge's, and Edge is now one of the top heels in the company. I understand your perspective, but I think the judgement call is a bit overzealous.

[BigDaddyCool]

Still, no one has been able to explain how the champion losing is title because ORton beat him up before a match makes Punk look good, and why it was a logical choice at all. Also, if CM Punk lost a hard fought match, that would make him look stronger than getting beat up by a bunch of thugs and being defacto stripped of his title.

[Londoner]

Hang on BDC, are you telling us you're not happy with jericho actually winning the title? Wow, i'm so shocked.

Your bitching about jericho is so boring now.

[BigDaddyCool]

TL, out of all the possible people that could have gotten the title out of this mess, Jericho is one of the best choices...actually the only person that would have been better is HBK, but considering HBK is winding down and trying to retire, Jericho probably even a better choice than him.

I am pissed at the over all shitty booking, not Jericho being champion. He has been good lately.

[Rob]

My attitude toward you is apathetic at best. Nothing to worry about.

As for Punk's title run, I'd hardly say he wasn't taken seriously. Doing him differently, even as an experiment, does not make him a failure because, as I said, he now has the base upon which to build. I see parallels in his first run to Edge's, and Edge is now one of the top heels in the company. I understand your perspective, but I think the judgement call is a bit overzealous.

Worried? I don't think so. Edge's first run doesn't parallel this at all. He was the #1 heel and was being pushed as so against the top guy in the company. And he drew on top.

[Londoner]

TL, out of all the possible people that could have gotten the title out of this mess, Jericho is one of the best choices...actually the only person that would have been better is HBK, but considering HBK is winding down and trying to retire, Jericho probably even a better choice than him.

I am pissed at the over all shitty booking, not Jericho being champion. He has been good lately.

Ok fair enough, but i think this is good for cm punk. he now can feud with orton/his stable(assuming it forms) and then have a better run with the title next time.

[Afterlife]

Still, no one has been able to explain how the champion losing is title because ORton beat him up before a match makes Punk look good, and why it was a logical choice at all. Also, if CM Punk lost a hard fought match, that would make him look stronger than getting beat up by a bunch of thugs and being defacto stripped of his title.

I don't think anyone is saying the kick in the head made him "look good". They're saying that taking a 4 on 1 beat down was a good excuse to take him out of the match, and that losing his title would have been the bragging rights of JBL, wether he won or not, for calling Punk a fluke. If he had lost, cleanly or otherwise -- even though "cleanly" might be hard to define under the rules of said match -- then his title reign is capped off by the naysayers being right and any momentum he'd had would be DOA.

This way, he has a reason to gun for Orton -- a former champion himself -- and go over him. This will start to give him solid credibility without keeping him wrapped up in the title scene and drying him up on fan energy for the duration. It does make sense, when you really look at the big potential picture.

Am I saying it's a perfect situation? Absolutely not. But I definitely see the value in the process and the justification in rthe booking.

[Rob]

Because Steve Austin is an established SUPERTSTAR.

How does this make sense? It would be okay to bitch about Michaels or HHH not dropping the belt in the ring because they are established stars but it wouldn't be for Steve Austin because he is an established star?

Anyone that can help me out here please stick your answers on a postcard.

TL, out of all the possible people that could have gotten the title out of this mess, Jericho is one of the best choices...actually the only person that would have been better is HBK, but considering HBK is winding down and trying to retire, Jericho probably even a better choice than him.

I am pissed at the over all shitty booking, not Jericho being champion. He has been good lately.

This man gets it.

[Afterlife]

1. Worried? I don't think so. 2. Edge's first run doesn't parallel this at all. He was the #1 heel and was being pushed as so against the top guy in the company. And he drew on top.

1. Useless alpha male post. :y:

2. ...Are you sure you know what you're talking about? Edge's first run wasn't a brief stint won by the MitB contract? He wasn't put thru weak appearance booking against his opponents for the miniscule duration? He didn't lose it only to start a high potential feud, regain the title, and solidify his spot in the top tier? I coulda sworn that was his first run.

[BigDaddyCool]

I think it is shitty booking. If you need to defend it this much, it is shitty booking.

[Afterlife]

Well, I"m only explaining my views in response to your claim that nobody had explained something. That's all.

[Rob]

1. Useless alpha male post. :y:

2. ...Are you sure you know what you're talking about? Edge's first run wasn't a brief stint won by the MitB contract? He wasn't put thru weak appearance booking against his opponents for the miniscule duration? He didn't lose it only to start a high potential feud, regain the title, and solidify his spot in the top tier? I coulda sworn that was his first run.

1 - Get new material.

2 - Check the ratings and PPV buys when he was on top.

Maybe I'm the idiot here but I think the whole point of making a star is the make money with him immediately. Not hopefully months down the line. You build him BEFORE you put the belt on him. Only Bret Hart went from mid card to main event and stayed there because they booked him strong when he was on top. Everyone else who made money on top was booked to be a top star BEFORE they got the belt.

[BigDaddyCool]

Also, saying you hate the IWC is stupid. I for one never hated CM Punk as a champion, I just wanted to see him get some solid wins and look like a decent champion, he never got to, then he was put in a match that it was almost certain he couldn't win or look strong in, and then before the match even starts he is beat up and lose his title in a match he was taken out of. That is fairly consistant. It isn't like I hated him winning it and now hated him losing it.

[Rob]

If he was booked as a strong champion, we wouldn't be having this arguement.

[Afterlife]

1 - Get new material.

2 - Check the ratings and PPV buys when he was on top.

Maybe I'm the idiot here but I think the whole point of making a star is the make money with him immediately. Not hopefully months down the line. You build him BEFORE you put the belt on him. Only Bret Hart went from mid card to main event and stayed there because they booked him strong when he was on top. Everyone else who made money on top was booked to be a top star BEFORE they got the belt.

I don't care about ratings, hence I didn't mention them. And I'm not intending to call you an idiot, so you really can stop the hostility. Again, I'm not saying what they did was the perfect play. I'm simply saying it's not nearly the tragedy that some would suggest, and I've explained why. By your own comparisson, had they booked him stronger, he'd have been fine. But testing the waters with him as champ is not the end of the world because it's what gave him the base to have a powerful run as champion. His second run will have the potential to be long and strong because of this.

[BigDaddyCool]

WWE does, and this is driving down ratings.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Yeah I saw it. Why would I be commenting on something I didn't see?

Jericho got a fluke title win after getting the living piss kicked out of him by Shawn Michaels. And it's bollocks saying it's taunting Michaels by telling him it didn't hurt. Him showing his bruises on Raw immediately reject that idea.

The majority of fans think it's shitty booking. If you think it isn't then good for you. Nobody should be throwing hissy fits over people having opinions over something like this. It's not like it's like the arguement about how it would be easier to forgive Chris Benoit for being a cold hearted killer than forgiving Hulk Hogan for the perception he is a jerk.

A lot of people around here comment on things they haven't seen. I'm almost convinced most of the people shitting on this haven't seen the PPV.

I meant hurt in a metaphorical sense. Jericho is obviously physically hurt, but he still had the gall to go out there and win the World Heavyweight Title, albeit in a sneaky way. If that doesn't eat up Shawn Michaels and cause him to come back and want a title match, then I'll agree this is shitty booking.

[BigDaddyCool]

You don't need to see this to know it is shitty booking.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Fucking idiot.

Your champion needs to look strong. Punk title run was a failure because he was booked weak. Same with Jericho's first run. I'd rather Jericho not even be in the match and put the belt on one of the others. Or have Michaels be the 5th guy and win the title. No champion in the history of wrestling, boxing or MMA (and it's all the same so don't argue it ain't) has drawn money as a weak champion. Not a single one.

Some people understand wrestling booking is used to MAKE MONEY. Some don't. You are obviously the latter.

CM Punk didn't look strong during his reign, so the WWE took the belt off him in a way that allows him to come back and say that he was cheated. I think they are definitely jumping the gun with this Steel Cage Match stuff, and that Punk should take a month or so off, and cut some promos hyping his return and how much he hates Orton, and how much he wants to prove he is the true World Heavyweight Champion.

I do like strong champions, but I don't think Jericho is exactly looking weak right now. He beat CM Punk cleanly in non-title competition, and at The Great American Bash he has a match-stoppage victory over Shawn Michaels. Granted, the same thing happened to him at Unforgiven, but he proved he's a tough motherfucker by going out there with his wounds, being a smart guy, and pulling out the title win despite it all.

Besides, with heel champions, the money is in the chase. People pay to see a good heel champion get beat, and with CM Punk, Batista and Shawn Michaels all in line with shots, I'd say there are great legs on this.

[Mr. Nerfect]

You don't need to see this to know it is shitty booking.

Yes, you really fucking do. People aren't grasping how sick the beat-down on CM Punk was, and assume he just took a few punches to the head and was out. He got killed with a kick that has killed legends. You also need to understand how the Scramble Match was also presented on the Jericho front, and you need to have seen HBK's promo to fully comprehend the implications of Jericho winning.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Still, no one has been able to explain how the champion losing is title because ORton beat him up before a match makes Punk look good, and why it was a logical choice at all. Also, if CM Punk lost a hard fought match, that would make him look stronger than getting beat up by a bunch of thugs and being defacto stripped of his title.

No, you have been told. You are just too stupid to take it in. Like in the Q&A forum when you asked about clean champions, got about five answers and said "no, that doesn't count."

It makes Punk look good for the following reasons:

1) He never got pinned, submitted, counted out, disqualified, knocked out or bled out to lose the World Heavyweight Title. He lost the title because he was screwed over by influences outside of professional wrestling competition.

2) Fans of CM Punk can maintain that Punk would have kept on surviving as champion if it wasn't for Orton. This intensifies their feud, and saves the comeback taunt of "well, Punk lost the match." He didn't lose the match.

3) If CM Punk had wrestled in a hard fought bout, and lost, he'd look like he has his entire title reign -- he'd look like an afterthought, and as someone that couldn't get it done. He'd be just another guy that won and lost the title. This way, Punk never lost the title.

This is a logical decision because:

1) It puts over Orton's eventual heel stable as a force to be feared. They can make or break the careers of individuals in the WWE. It positions them against a popular face character, and it creates a real interest in seeing them stopped, instead of them just being a bunch of young guys people don't like together.

2) Which feud, all preconceptions aside, should be fought over the World Heavyweight Championship: CM Punk vs. Randy Orton or Chris Jericho vs. Shawn Michaels. If you said Punk vs. Orton, you're living in a fantasy world. Jericho and Michaels are two of the most entertaining performers not only in the world today, but arguably in professional wrestling ever. This decision allowed them to do the switcheroo with the feuds and their priority on RAW.

3) SmackDown! has Triple H as the WWE Champion, and although the plan was to make SmackDown! look stronger, with a new champion like CM Punk at the top, RAW has been looking less and less like the flagship. With the hottest program in the WWE being fought over its World Championship, the brand suddenly regains a lot of its glory and prestige.

4) This creates a long build for CM Punk to eventually regain his World Heavyweight Championship, which will hopefully lead to an epic pay-off that could make the WWE some cash. His flash title win gained interest, but now they get to milk the slow burn.

5) Putting the World Heavyweight Championship on Chris Jericho, a performer who has successfully re-invented himself, and been doing some fantastic work for the company, can help boost morale because it shows the WWE rewards good performances. Giving The Brian Kendrick his due is a similar ideal. It's almost like how WCW used to give bonuses each week to the guys who had the best match.

[Mr. Nerfect]

WWE does, and this is driving down ratings.

Have the ratings even come out yet?

I agree that Punk should have been booked stronger as a champion, but the fact is he wasn't. If he had lost the World Title in a conventional sense, it would have helped no one. Like Afterlife, I'm not saying this is the best thing ever, but it's certainly not "shitty."

+CM Punk will get more over as a face for this. He can then re-chase the title with BUILD behind him.

+Chris Jericho is the World Heavyweight Champion.

I mean, who really gets hurt in this scenario? The biggest bitch in all of this is really Kane, who got pinned twice after a single Spinebuster from Batista.

[BigDaddyCool]

Yes, you really fucking do. People aren't grasping how sick the beat-down on CM Punk was, and assume he just took a few punches to the head and was out. He got killed with a kick that has killed legends. You also need to understand how the Scramble Match was also presented on the Jericho front, and you need to have seen HBK's promo to fully comprehend the implications of Jericho winning.

The match itself is a horrible idea. All the champions had plenty of singles matches to go through with out a retarded cluster fuck. Then to take one of the champions in the match out at the last second (brutal beating or not) makes a retarded idea worse.

On top of that, who do they replace a beaten up Punk with? A beaten up Jericho. They way there were billing the grudge match between Jericho and HBK, is that niether were going to come out unscathed and be beaten up so bad that neither would probably get out. So what do they do, they take the loser of the match and put him in another match. On paper, this is shitty booking.

No, you have been told. You are just too stupid to take it in. Like in the Q&A forum when you asked about clean champions, got about five answers and said "no, that doesn't count."

It makes Punk look good for the following reasons:

1) He never got pinned, submitted, counted out, disqualified, knocked out or bled out to lose the World Heavyweight Title. He lost the title because he was screwed over by influences outside of professional wrestling competition.

2) Fans of CM Punk can maintain that Punk would have kept on surviving as champion if it wasn't for Orton. This intensifies their feud, and saves the comeback taunt of "well, Punk lost the match." He didn't lose the match.

3) If CM Punk had wrestled in a hard fought bout, and lost, he'd look like he has his entire title reign -- he'd look like an afterthought, and as someone that couldn't get it done. He'd be just another guy that won and lost the title. This way, Punk never lost the title.

This is a logical decision because:

1) It puts over Orton's eventual heel stable as a force to be feared. They can make or break the careers of individuals in the WWE. It positions them against a popular face character, and it creates a real interest in seeing them stopped, instead of them just being a bunch of young guys people don't like together.

2) Which feud, all preconceptions aside, should be fought over the World Heavyweight Championship: CM Punk vs. Randy Orton or Chris Jericho vs. Shawn Michaels. If you said Punk vs. Orton, you're living in a fantasy world. Jericho and Michaels are two of the most entertaining performers not only in the world today, but arguably in professional wrestling ever. This decision allowed them to do the switcheroo with the feuds and their priority on RAW.

3) SmackDown! has Triple H as the WWE Champion, and although the plan was to make SmackDown! look stronger, with a new champion like CM Punk at the top, RAW has been looking less and less like the flagship. With the hottest program in the WWE being fought over its World Championship, the brand suddenly regains a lot of its glory and prestige.

4) This creates a long build for CM Punk to eventually regain his World Heavyweight Championship, which will hopefully lead to an epic pay-off that could make the WWE some cash. His flash title win gained interest, but now they get to milk the slow burn.

5) Putting the World Heavyweight Championship on Chris Jericho, a performer who has successfully re-invented himself, and been doing some fantastic work for the company, can help boost morale because it shows the WWE rewards good performances. Giving The Brian Kendrick his due is a similar ideal. It's almost like how WCW used to give bonuses each week to the guys who had the best match.

1. For the last time, losing is nessicary. Having a title taken off you without losing is crappier than losing it in a hard fought match. Plus it is just lazy booking

2. HBK v Jericho doesn't need the title to look good. Orton v Punk by itself lacks sizzle without title in it.

3. That is retarded. This shitty angle doesn't fix the fact that the were poorly booking CM Punk.

4. What happens when they don't do this? CM Punk will be the fluke JBL always said he was, that is what.

5. Jericho does deserve to be champion, but not this way. This kind of booking completely devalues an already weak championship title.

[Rob]

I don't care about ratings, hence I didn't mention them.]

They do care about ratings. That's the whole point. If it was just for entertainment for a few people, put the belt on Rory McAllister or something. I'd get a kick out of it. Not many others would but it doesn't matter.

[Juan]

How does this make sense? It would be okay to bitch about Michaels or HHH not dropping the belt in the ring because they are established stars but it wouldn't be for Steve Austin because he is an established star?

Anyone that can help me out here please stick your answers on a postcard.


Ok you got me on that one. One more notch for your "wrestling fans are stupid" belt.

[Rob]

Nah it's ok to be wrong. Just stupid to refuse to believe a fact.

[addy2hotty]

[COLOR=darkorchid]2. ...Are you sure you know what you're talking about? Edge's first run wasn't a brief stint won by the MitB contract? He wasn't put thru weak appearance booking against his opponents for the miniscule duration? He didn't lose it only to start a high potential feud, regain the title, and solidify his spot in the top tier? I coulda sworn that was his first run.

Yes, but the difference is, Edge had been through various high level feuds and had numerous title shots already. If I recall correctly, he even had a title shot at a PPV as well as having the MITB. He then even had the returning Matt Hardy storyline, even with the MITB being put on the line in a match.

Punk had none of that on his resume. Feuding (and losing regularly to) Chavo Guerrero & John Morrison is not even in the same league.

They blew their load on Punk way way too soon. I would have liked to see this 'undeserving' thing being based around the MITB contract rather than the title. The joke was, he was still losing matches but not looking particularly bad not long after Mania. They started having him stalking the champions at the PPV's - that worked.

Then he won the title, they wrote him exactly as the others described - a lucky, transition champion who would lose it at the first oppotunity. He should have beaten Batista, clean or not - that would have worked. Much like when Jericho first beat Rock with a steel chair to win the 'big one'.

This upcoming feud with Orton could be great, as long as Punk drops the smiley jumping around thing and gets vindictive.

[Afterlife]

I realize they are not the same formula. My point was simply that there were similarities being denied.