Val Venis - Was he as good as Rick Rude?

[thedamndest]

When I look at Val Venis, I see something of an updated face version of Ravishing Rick Rude, right down to the towel. When I compare their accomplishments, though, Val Venis never gets past Intercontinental Champion, and a pretty standard mid-card level one at that. When Rude held it, he had already been a top champion, and so he was one of those Intercontinental champions that really elevated the belt almost to a level of a second World's title, rather than a secondary men's belt.

Granted, Venis played in different times. More shows meant much more title swaps. It's not his fault if the IC belt was somehow worth less when he held it.

Do you think the two men are athletically comparable? Do you think it is in the booking? Do you think it is in the times? Do you think it has anything to do with the fact that Rude died young? Do you thing the two are even comparable, or this talk is a waste?

[Xero]

Shut up, Noid.

[thedamndest]

I posed questions, I didn't come up with sweeping theses. There is a difference.

[Heyman]

Here's my thoughts:

-I sort of see what you're saying (as it relates to the comparison between VV and RRR).

-Back in RRR's time however, I think the IC title had far more significance. There was far greater parity between the IC title and World title. Nowadays, there's too big of a discrepancy. In other words - a guy will win the IC title, drop the IC title, and then have nowhere to go.....because he's way too far from being a legit "heavyweight" contender. Unless someone has tremendous charisma and/or a great gimmick, they will then get lost in the shuffle. I think this is what happened to Val Venis.

Compare this to 1998. Only FOUR (4) guys were legitimately "above" the IC division: Austin, Undertaker, Kane, and Mankind. However - the guys competing for the IC title were EXTREMELY close to getting elevated (i.e. The Rock, Triple H, Owen Hart, Ken Shamrock, etc.).

In 2000 - guys like Angle, Benoit, and Jericho were all EXTREMELY close to the "main-event level." At this point, only The Rock, Triple H, and an (absent) Austin and Undertaker were "above" the IC title.


Bottom line? I think the IC title needs to

A) Become more prestigious again.
B) Be reserved for up-and-coming talent that are CLOSE to the getting to the main-event level (i.e. CM Punk, Jeff Hardy, etc.).

Given how many former champions are on the show now, perhaps they can make a 'legends' type belt (i.e. only people that have been past world champions can go after this belt).

[thedamndest]

I think a "porno mustache" would have gone a long way in enhancing Val's character.

[Funky Fly]

A few things on my mind regarding this particular topic:

1. Val Venis is awesome. Before I elaborate, if anyone says "Noid post" in reference to this, you are banned. :)

Now, Venis took a somewhat ridiculous gimmick and made it work. The time he had the IC title, it was worth less than in the "good ol' days", but more than it is worth now. I believe they could have turned him into a main eventer if they really wanted, but I think we all know that would mean a gimmick change (not so great) or at least a gimmick evolution of sorts. And that wouldn't have worked out so well. Chief Morley anyone?

2. The IC and US titles need to stop being won by debuting wrestlers.

Come the fuck on. All of the guys who have won the IC or US titles upon debut are stck in midcard hell rn. I seriously doubt Carlito or Santino are ever gonna hold the big belts, let alone be remembered as credible midcard champs. If they really wanna stick the IC and US belts on debuting guys, it should be on guys you know will be main eventers in relatively short periods of time. I'd say sticking it on guys like RVD, Lesnar and Lashley on their debuts would have been reasonable. RVD last time RVD had a midcard belt before debuting in the WWE he made it more imortant than the world title itself. Lesnar and Lashley both had the skillset and credibility (ie. they were jacked up roid freaks whose matches Mcahon probably jerked off to).

3. They need to have certain maineventers who aren't in the world title picture go after the IC and US belts from time to time.

Jericho holding the IC belt while going over other maineventers added to the credibility of the belt, IMO. This should happen a little more frequently with guys like Kane. Then have them lose it on a fluke after a fairly long run of destroying the midcard guys. The guy who gets the lucky win then goes on to establish himself in the upper midcard on a failry long run of his own and then you have a brand new maineventer after a while. Easy as that.

4. The midcard needs to go back to its sort of 2 tiered system during the attitude era.

Owen Hart and Ken Shamrock were not maineventers. That's not really up for debate. The fact is, they weren't. But they clearly weren't your run of the mill midcarders either. These guys feuded with maineventers on the regular and were used to catapult guys like The Rock and HHH to the main event scene.

[Nark Order]

Poid Nost!

[Heyman]

4. The midcard needs to go back to its sort of 2 tiered system during the attitude era.

Owen Hart and Ken Shamrock were not maineventers. That's not really up for debate. The fact is, they weren't. But they clearly weren't your run of the mill midcarders either. These guys feuded with maineventers on the regular and were used to catapult guys like The Rock and HHH to the main event scene.

Few things:

1) Excellent overall post.

2) I'll concede that Shamrock wasn't really main-event material...given his lack of charisma. Owen Hart however, was generating spectacular heat...and was way over with the fans. DX, Austin, and even The Rock (former members of The Nation) all could have had potential axes to grind with Owen. Owen could have and would have been a tremendous main-eventer in my opinion. He had the charisma and he had the wrestling ability.

However - given how deep the roster was at the time, perhaps this was not realistic (and in that sense, perhaps you are right).

[Funky Fly]

Poid Nost!
Don't play...
Few things:

1) Excellent overall post.

2) I'll concede that Shamrock wasn't really main-event material...given his lack of charisma. Owen Hart however, was generating spectacular heat...and was way over with the fans. DX, Austin, and even The Rock (former members of The Nation) all could have had potential axes to grind with Owen. Owen could have and would have been a tremendous main-eventer in my opinion. He had the charisma and he had the wrestling ability.

However - given how deep the roster was at the time, perhaps this was not realistic (and in that sense, perhaps you are right).

I believe Owen should have been a main eventer and definitely would have been if things had gone differently. He had all the tools. It's just sad the way things ended going with the screwjob, the punishment angle and his eventual death as a result.

[thedamndest]

I agree that Venis is awesome. But to a degree, the gimmick had only a certain longevity. With Rick Rude, you've got a name you can make work as anything. With Val, you've got a name that rhymes with the male organ, and god love him, he did make it work for a really long time, and he did get a lot of mileage out of those promos. But the name is not one that will EVER take you to the big belt. Funky mentioned Chief Morley. I think this was a great heel gimmick that completed repackaged him and drew a ton of heat, but I don't think it was the way to get him to the belt. I think it was actually too far from his roots as a ravishing Rick Rude-type character; I'd have repackaged him into a more serious, still gyrating asshole. He stops doing movies for some reason to focus on winning the title and could just be Sexy Sean Morley, or something.

I agree with all other responses about the mid-level belts. Some refreshing times in recent (or not so) memory were when Flair won the IC belt, HHH feuded with Kane and Jeff Hardy over it...and I'm sure more. The US Belt has gotten pretty predictable. It's just "Have a guy win it then hold it for a really long time until the next guy is ready for it." That isn't exciting.

[thedamndest]

I guess some of the same questions could be asked of Rick "The Model" Martel. He had all the tools to take it to the top in the ring, but the model gimmick held him back, just minus a lot of the attitude that the Rude character had going for him to push the envelope at the time. I would say the repackage as "The Model" was successful, so I don't think that was an issue, I just don't think he was a guy they ever wanted to take that far. Which is understandable, because I think by the time Strike Force broke up and he became "The Model" he was already pretty old, but still.

[Hanso Amore]

Similar, yes.

But RRR is a Legend that could have been even bigger.

Venis wont be remembered in 15 years.

[Vastardikai]

Morely is a great worker, no doubt.

However, Morely is to Demolition what Rude was to the Road Warriors.

Rick Rude SHOULD have been the top guy (and to an extent was the top guy in WCW for a little while.) Put it this way, I can't remember most of Val's promos. But I'll never forget this, for Sarasota, FL:

"Cut the music! Now, I want all of you fat... (massive heat) out of shape... (massive heat)... Sarasota Sweat Hogs... (massive heat) to keep the noise down, while I take off my robe and show you what a real man is SUPPOSED to look like! (massive heat) Hit the music!"

[Juan]

Similar, yes.

But RRR is a Legend that could have been even bigger.

Venis wont be remembered in 15 years.

This.

[Rob]

Venis can't be compared to Rude. Rude had super natural charisma and was over everywhere just by showing up. Venis had his 15 minutes and nobody cared afterwards. Rude had the potential to carry a company as top heel. Venis didn't.

[Vastardikai]

Hell, Val Venis couldn't even wash Rick Rude's tights.

Rick Rude's Tights were also perhaps the greatest thing ever.

[Kane Knight]

A few things on my mind regarding this particular topic:

1. Val Venis is awesome. Before I elaborate, if anyone says "Noid post" in reference to this, you are banned. :)

Now, Venis took a somewhat ridiculous gimmick and made it work. The time he had the IC title, it was worth less than in the "good ol' days", but more than it is worth now. I believe they could have turned him into a main eventer if they really wanted, but I think we all know that would mean a gimmick change (not so great) or at least a gimmick evolution of sorts. And that wouldn't have worked out so well. Chief Morley anyone?

2. The IC and US titles need to stop being won by debuting wrestlers.

Come the fuck on. All of the guys who have won the IC or US titles upon debut are stck in midcard hell rn. I seriously doubt Carlito or Santino are ever gonna hold the big belts, let alone be remembered as credible midcard champs. If they really wanna stick the IC and US belts on debuting guys, it should be on guys you know will be main eventers in relatively short periods of time. I'd say sticking it on guys like RVD, Lesnar and Lashley on their debuts would have been reasonable. RVD last time RVD had a midcard belt before debuting in the WWE he made it more imortant than the world title itself. Lesnar and Lashley both had the skillset and credibility (ie. they were jacked up roid freaks whose matches Mcahon probably jerked off to).

3. They need to have certain maineventers who aren't in the world title picture go after the IC and US belts from time to time.

Jericho holding the IC belt while going over other maineventers added to the credibility of the belt, IMO. This should happen a little more frequently with guys like Kane. Then have them lose it on a fluke after a fairly long run of destroying the midcard guys. The guy who gets the lucky win then goes on to establish himself in the upper midcard on a failry long run of his own and then you have a brand new maineventer after a while. Easy as that.

4. The midcard needs to go back to its sort of 2 tiered system during the attitude era.

Owen Hart and Ken Shamrock were not maineventers. That's not really up for debate. The fact is, they weren't. But they clearly weren't your run of the mill midcarders either. These guys feuded with maineventers on the regular and were used to catapult guys like The Rock and HHH to the main event scene.

1. You're joking, right? I agree that Venis is the goods, but took a ridiculous gimmick and made it work? Jalf the gimmicks at that point were ridiculous. They made it not on any merit of the wrestlers portraying them, but because the general attitudede was such that anyone with a slightly funny or racy gimmick had a shot.

2. I'd settle for them not being won by shitty wrestlers.

3. Should, but won't.

4. That would be nice, especially since there were always people you could tap for title matches. They were more believable than the random jobbers, and they kept things from being the same four challengers ad nauseum.

[St. Jimmy]

No.

[Kane Knight]

I posed questions, I didn't come up with sweeping theses. There is a difference.

It's still a Noid Post to me, dammit!

Though seriously, I wonder how many people like Venis but don't say anything because of the Noidisms attached to it.

[Jeritron]

I could get into details and side thoughts like everyone else, but I'll be simple: No. He wasn't/isn't. Athletically, sure, he's on par. Other factors lead to him being inferior overall, however. That isn't a bad thing.

[The Ravishing One]

:nono:

[thedamndest]

A better way to ask this would have been "Could he have been as good as Rick Rude?"