I have an honest question...

[Mr. Nerfect]

What was so horrible about Rikishi being revealed as the driver that ran down Stone Cold Steve Austin? When I started watching, Rikishi was already a bit into his heel run (sometime between Armageddon 2000 and Royal Rumble 2001), so I didn't actually see "the big reveal," or whatever. But it's something that is generally looked on as universally horrible.

What exactly was it that sucked the life out of any (unforced) upwards momentum Rikishi had going for him in 2000? Was it because he was so over and accepted as a face character? Was it that he couldn't cut a good heel promo? Was it that he couldn't play a heel in the ring? Was it that he wasn't the best option out there? Was it just revealed it an anti-climatic way?

I'm curious, because when I started watching, people knew Rikishi, and he was considered one of the WWE's "top guys" to casuals over here. He was never great in the ring, I guess, but that hasn't stopped guys from finding success.

I guess my question boils down to: Was it the angle or the performer that made Rikishi's heel turn in 2000 so shitty?

I'll also throw in this bonus: Who would you have had revealed as the driver behind Stone Cold's hit and run?

[screech]

To me, it was that Rikishi couldn't play a heel at all. And he was pretty much plucked from the sky. He went from shaking his fat ass around the ring to running down the number one guy in no time at all. After the shock (not the good kind) of the reveal, fans realized that he couldn't cut a heel promo (I'd argue no promo at all, but that's another story) to save his life. Vince also realized this (and that fans were upset with the decision), hence Triple H coming in to salvage the angle.

As for who I would have picked, I'll get back to you since I have a test in 20 minutes.

[Fabien Barthez]

He was just obviously packaged as a heel for Austin and Rocky. He was over in his gimmick before, I think dancy fun-loving fat guy to murder intending heel is a big switch, and without much in the way of set up, is a bit much to swallow.

Plus he is a decent worker, but given the 2 years of main events that preceeded it, the matches weren't going to have much to make them stand out.

I thought it was a shit angle anyway, but if I had to pick someone to do it, it would have been Hogan. Not a viable option at the time, but meh.

[Ruien]

Billy Gunn. Not a joke eithier.

[Rammsteinmad]

For me it was just the fact that it was Rikishi. Nothing against the guy, he was pretty good for his size, but that was a perfect oppotunity to reveal it to be someone "big", or someone old star returning. Obviously it could have been revealed to be anyone of The Rock, Undertaker, Mick Foley, Triple H, maybe Kurt Angle before his debut. Also it could have been to announce the return of an old legend. Shawn Michaels returning to get revenege for "ending his career", maybe someone like British Bulldog or Mr. Perfect returning to WWE and taking out their top guy. Or just someone like Ken Shamrock or who was returning.

I guess it was just after everything it all came down to... "It was Rikishi". And it just kinda felt like a waste.

[Jeritron]

Probably has to do with the fact that you didn't start watching until after that. Things were great when you started watching, but not the same. Up until that point, they were on such a roll. It was one of the first major dissapointments with an angle after an impressive run. It was too a point where expectations were understandably high, and most felt let down bigtime

[SuperSlim]

The main problem I had with Rikishi being chosen as the guy to do it is that... NOTHING changed about him. Yeah he had a new theme and he would wear different threads to the ring but in the ring he still wore the thong and really nothing much changed about him at all. He was still the same fat guy that used to dance with Too Cool. It's like they expected him to become this super monster heel after running Austin down and not having to do anything to the character and it would automatically transfer over... and it flopped.

That coupled with the fact that the man couldn't cut a promo, let alone a heel promo. He could dance... that's it. Rikishi was just an awful choice although I'm not really sure who could have used such a push that huge. That's the thing I don't know is who could have been used for that super heel push but Rikishi was just an awful choice.

[Hanso Amore]

It didnt work because he wasnt a top guy, and he was a happy fun face. The Storyline had been built up for so long on the number one guy in history, only to have the revelation come to be that a bit player was behind it, and then kind of faded out for the big names to go at it again.

[Hanso Amore]

This event was the same as the Vince's son angle.

Built up for a major story, and the culmination was a huge let down.

[screech]

This event was the same as the Vince's son angle.

Built up for a major story, and the culmination was a huge let down.

Exactly.

[BigDaddyCool]

There is really no point in explaining stuff like this to noid, he really doesn't get what makes wrestling good or bad. He proves it again and again by asking questions like why did the Rikishi angle fail, what is the point of promoting Christian's return and that he constantly wants to put over bland workhorses in the show horse spots.

[Jeritron]

I feel like this is a dishonest question

[BigDaddyCool]

I feel like this is a dishonest question

lol

[The Mackem]

'I did it...for...the Rock...'

That one promo and you knew it was doomed. If that had went better maybe it could have worked. He was in the ring with Foley and The Rock, his mic skills were not strong enough. Plus the whole race aspect to it confused everyone - is this a heel you are supposed to boo or some kind of equality fighter that you are supposed to cheer. I don't remember there being much of a reaction at all when it was revealed.

[Fabien Barthez]

There is really no point in explaining stuff like this to noid, he really doesn't get what makes wrestling good or bad. He proves it again and again by asking questions like why did the Rikishi angle fail, what is the point of promoting Christian's return and that he constantly wants to put over bland workhorses in the show horse spots.

Getting. Old.

[BigDaddyCool]

Getting. Old.

Verily, Noid is getting old.

[BigDaddyCool]

I don't completely blame WWE for this because at the time Rikishi was over, but starting to loss momentum, so a heel turn could have saved it. And they were trying to make a new star, so Rikishi wasn't a horrible choice for it. But still there were better choices for this angle, and Rikishi pretty pretty much dropped the ball and WWE should have seen that coming.

[Supreme Olajuwon]

Rikishi himself said he didn't like the angle because he was too much of a face character. Also, they made him look like a joke at No Mercy. You don't push someone as a monster heel by having Austin beat the shit out of him to the point Austin gets arrested and then have Rikishi fuck up his interference in the title match later that night. He had zero credibility. He lost every single PPV match he had as a heel.

[RatedGSuperstar]

What was so horrible about Rikishi being revealed as the driver that ran down Stone Cold Steve Austin? When I started watching, Rikishi was already a bit into his heel run (sometime between Armageddon 2000 and Royal Rumble 2001), so I didn't actually see "the big reveal," or whatever. But it's something that is generally looked on as universally horrible.

The big reveal:

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You could almost get a sense that the crowd wanted it to be The Rock, and when Foley pointed his finger at Rikishi, there was barely a response. I'll agree with Mackem in that the crowd had no idea how to respond to his promo. They popped for all the big names (on a side note, kind of sad how most of today's fans seem to be clueless about Superfly Snuka, but he got a pretty big pop in that promo from 2000), and he at least did a decent job of convincing us that some kind of wrong had been committed against his people, but he failed to do it in a heelish manner.

[BigDaddyCool]

Yeah, I recalled being miffed by that.

[Legend Killer]

It should have been Kurt Angle or even The Rock, WM 17 would have been even better had it been The Rock.

[The Show Off]

'I did it...for...the Rock...'

That one promo and you knew it was doomed. If that had went better maybe it could have worked. He was in the ring with Foley and The Rock, his mic skills were not strong enough. Plus the whole race aspect to it confused everyone - is this a heel you are supposed to boo or some kind of equality fighter that you are supposed to cheer. I don't remember there being much of a reaction at all when it was revealed.

I could have been all for bad ass Rikishi running down Steve Austin in an attempt to move his way up in the card. I could have been all for Rikishi coming out as a monster heel destroying people and leaving a path of destruction on his way to the top. I could have been followed if Rikishi became the type of wrestler that didn't care what anyone thought and just did anything and everything to make his way to the top. What I couldn't be all for was...

"I did it... for The Rock."

Talk about completely destroying the story line with one line. So instead of Rikishi being a total bad ass, or bastard or heel, he's a flunky? A fucking flunky ran over the most over wrestler in the WWF?

Rikishi saying that he did it for The Rock doesn't elevate him in people's eyes because he wasn't being his own man. He wasn't attacking Steve Austin to become a better wrestler or gain noterity, he was doing it for The Rock. Who cares?

People can't get behind a heel or a face in a main event copacity if their whole gimmick is based on them doing what they do for someone else (unless its because of blackmail and even that barley works).

If Rikishi came out and said "Yeah it's true I was the one that ran over Steve Austin, because he is a symbol of everything that I hate in this buisness. He is a symbol of the fans. The fans are the people that took me from a proud Samoan Warrior and turned be into a laughing stock dancing like and idiot, with a bunch of idiots. And I'm sick of it. I'm sick of doing what the fans want. I'm sick of being who the fans want me to be.

"So I got bitter and angry and decided I wanted to strike at them where it hurts most Stone Cold Steve Austin so that's what I did. I took him out. I put him out of action. I did what neither you (pointing to Foley), you (pointing to The Rock), or Vince McMahon could do, I put the rattle snake one the shelf. And now he wants to come back? Well, when he comes back he's going to find the WWF a less friendly place because I'm on a mission to destroy everything the fans love starting with Austin. And when I'm done with him and Austin is out of your lives for good. (he steps up to The Rock) Than perhaps its time to clear out all their favorites."

Then Rikishi leaves the ring and preceeds to attack Steve Austin upon his return and blah blah blah.

That could have worked rather than...

"I did it... for The Rock because I'm too much of a pussy to be my own man because everyone thinks I'm a joke and I should be."

That and Rikishi wasn't all that good on the mic to begin with.

[Kane Knight]

Seems I've been talking a lot about good swerve/bad swerve lately.



It's never a good idea to lay a line DIRECTLY to one person and have it be another one.
If you're going to do it, make sure it's someone nearly as interesting. If you advertise the death of a character on your show, and it turns out to be the guy who gets all the main characters their coffee, people will feel ripped.
Kish may have needed a heel turn, but this is really not a good part for a dancing bear. It's kinda like they needed a snack, so they went with what was on-hand: a toothpaste and KY jelly sammich.
''I did it for the Rock" furthered the :wtf: factor. It kind of explained his involvement, but in a way that read last minute.
The Rock behind the wheel sets up an epic feud. Dancing bear v Legend just doesn't have the same ring.

Or, as some already said, Vince's son.

[thedamndest]

Everything everyone has already said: doing it for the Rock zero mic skills, not being a threat to Austin...to these I will add...

...the angle failed so badly that HHH needed to be the mastermind behind the whole thing. That may have been planned from the get go, but I seem to remember that once HHH's involvement was revealed, Rikishi pretty much dropped off Austin's radar, even though he was still the guy who physically ran him down.

They didn't get rid of the thong. No heel could be taken seriously with that much ass showing.

[screech]

It was good on them to change his theme (which I actually enjoyed), but nothing else about him really changed. It could have been a little better if they would have done away with the face aspects of his character, as others have said. (I know changing the character when transitioning between face and heel is generally frowned upon, but I think it was necessary in this case.)

[screech]

I have to do it now:

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[Jeritron]

Shane Douglas.

[Vastardikai]

It would like if the Red Rooster attacked Hulk Hogan with a chainsaw in the '80s. No one would buy it.

[Legend Killer]

It would like if the Red Rooster attacked Hulk Hogan with a chainsaw in the '80s. No one would buy it.


Wow!!! You my friend have quite the imagination. I Love It!!! LOL

[Vastardikai]

It's a line based off of what Pat Patterson said to Ricky Steamboat, who wanted to turn heel at the time.

"You could run in with a chainsaw and cut Hogan's arms off and you still couldn't be a heel. The fans wouldn't buy it."

[Mr. Nerfect]

Billy Gunn. Not a joke eithier.

I remember being a Billy Gunn mark back in the day. Jim Ross used to put him over so well. "Arguably pound-for-pound the toughest man in the WWE."

The way he used to move in the ring, his general look, and even his theme music just made me like the guy, and want to see him succeed. Thinking about it, given that in 1999, Billy Gunn was King of the Ring, and looking to edge himself towards the WWE Championship; him being revealed as the driver wouldn't have been the worst thing in the world.

2001 Royal Rumble: Kane being the runner-up and doing so well, and Billy Gunn making the Final Four made me so happy as a budding wrestling fan. It sort of kept me latched onto the business, instead of just ditching it when I found something better to watch.

[BigDaddyCool]

I remember being a Billy Gunn mark back in the day. Jim Ross used to put him over so well. "Arguably pound-for-pound the toughest man in the WWE."

Wrong, pound for pound the best athlete in the WWF today.

[Mr. Nerfect]

After watching that video, I have a few thoughts:

It's sad how much it reminds me of current times. For that era, that is sad, but compared to something on WWE television today? I don't know, it just reminds me of the angles the WWE has been running that people have been creaming themselves over.

Watching Rikishi cut a promo, I couldn't help but think of Randy Orton. Say what you want, but if Orton were born a little earlier, I don't think he would have cut it as a main eventer.

The "I did it for The Rock" bit didn't sink it for me. To me, it seemed like Rikishi was deflecting responsibility for his actions. Well, that was until he "accepted" it. I think this promo could have used a boost by either making Rikishi more selfish ("I did it so that I could get a spot"), or by having Rikishi do exactly what he did, only for The Rock to get on the mic all flustered and say "You did it for your damn self" and point out that Rikishi is just trying to justify what he did, and there's no justification for it.

Or they just could have made it The Rock. But in retrospect, compared to the shit we get today, this isolated reveal doesn't seem that bad. Hornswoggle as Vince's son was about a million times worse.

Anyway, I'm just thinking of other guys they could have made it, and two names popped into my head:

Would Chris Jericho or Chris Benoit have made a good driver in the storyline? Jericho came into the WWE around 1999 to try and make an impact, and his ambition boots on. Would Austin vs. Jericho have worked, or was Jericho too "mid-card" as a face to make the jump to being a main event heel? Also, was he too over and moving too much merchandise to do it?

Chris Benoit is the more "serious" choice. He came into the WWE in early 2000, I believe, and taking out Stone Cold could have been preparation for that. And the man was "The Crippler." :shifty:

[Mr. Nerfect]

Wrong, pound for pound the best athlete in the WWF today.

Wow, I got the adjective wrong. Big fucking deal. I'd start calling you on your minute mistakes, but I'll be making some big fucking Noid posts.

[BigDaddyCool]

After watching that video, I have a few thoughts:

It's sad how much it reminds me of current times. For that era, that is sad, but compared to something on WWE television today? I don't know, it just reminds me of the angles the WWE has been running that people have been creaming themselves over.

Really, which ones? Besides for the vince's bastard angle, which everyone hated, none come close to being this bad.

Watching Rikishi cut a promo, I couldn't help but think of Randy Orton. Say what you want, but if Orton were born a little earlier, I don't think he would have cut it as a main eventer.

If Orton came in the boom period, he would have had to be a lot better. Hell all the current maineventers would have had to be a lot better than they are now to have gotten near the top during the boom period (barring HHH and Undertaker who held their own during said period).

The "I did it for The Rock" bit didn't sink it for me. To me, it seemed like Rikishi was deflecting responsibility for his actions. Well, that was until he "accepted" it. I think this promo could have used a boost by either making Rikishi more selfish ("I did it so that I could get a spot"), or by having Rikishi do exactly what he did, only for The Rock to get on the mic all flustered and say "You did it for your damn self" and point out that Rikishi is just trying to justify what he did, and there's no justification for it.

Looking back it in retrospect, and knowing the out come before hand, like you are doing now as opposed to watching the angle unfold as the rest of us did is vastly different. "I did it for the Rock" killed the heat. Which is evident in the lack of reaction from the live audience. And we all think the promo could have used a boost, Mr Johnny Comelately.

Or they just could have made it The Rock. But in retrospect, compared to the shit we get today, this isolated reveal doesn't seem that bad. Hornswoggle as Vince's son was about a million times worse.

Again, no one liked the Bastard Son angle, and "I did it for the Rock" was slightly better than the Bastard Son angle. Though, that is like saying getting punched really hard in the chest is better than getting kicked really hard in the balls.

Anyway, I'm just thinking of other guys they could have made it, and two names popped into my head:

Would Chris Jericho or Chris Benoit have made a good driver in the storyline? Jericho came into the WWE around 1999 to try and make an impact, and his ambition boots on. Would Austin vs. Jericho have worked, or was Jericho too "mid-card" as a face to make the jump to being a main event heel? Also, was he too over and moving too much merchandise to do it?

Chris Benoit is the more "serious" choice. He came into the WWE in early 2000, I believe, and taking out Stone Cold could have been preparation for that. And the man was "The Crippler." :shifty:

Moot points, the angle was turned to shit. Jericho wasn't serious enough of a character to have done it, he was a pompus ass/cowardly heel, not a ruthless heel willing to run of Austin, plus he was already heel, and that wouldn have taken away from it.

Beniot on the other hand is even worse on the mic than Rikishi (which is why he has mostly be kept off it or given a limited role on the mic when they had to) plus it would have made no sense.

It should have been the Rock, end of story.

[BigDaddyCool]

Wow, I got the adjective wrong. Big fucking deal. I'd start calling you on your minute mistakes, but I'll be making some big fucking Noid posts.

You mean you don't already?

[BigDaddyCool]

Anyhow, I'm done with this. It is clear you, Noid, do not understand the nuance....hell you don't really understand booking 101, forget nuance.

[Theo Dious]

It would like if the Red Rooster attacked Hulk Hogan with a chainsaw in the '80s. No one would buy it.

Yes theywould have, people bought anything and everything in the 80s.

[James Steele]

I wish it would have been Ken Shamrock. That would have been badass.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Really, which ones? Besides for the vince's bastard angle, which everyone hated, none come close to being this bad.

Every single angle that has not had its potential capitalised on ever.

If Orton came in the boom period, he would have had to be a lot better. Hell all the current maineventers would have had to be a lot better than they are now to have gotten near the top during the boom period (barring HHH and Undertaker who held their own during said period).

Doubt he would have. He's too sketchy in the ring, and not strong enough on the mic. It's all hypothetical, but I think Orton would have gotten maybe two runs with the IC Title, and would only start to be getting ahead now.

Looking back it in retrospect, and knowing the out come before hand, like you are doing now as opposed to watching the angle unfold as the rest of us did is vastly different. "I did it for the Rock" killed the heat. Which is evident in the lack of reaction from the live audience. And we all think the promo could have used a boost, Mr Johnny Comelately.

Of course it is fucking different. I'm just saying from a retrospective standpoint, the promo wasn't any more horrible than one of Randy Orton's monotonous ones, or the creative faux pas the WWE is constantly known for.

Again, no one liked the Bastard Son angle, and "I did it for the Rock" was slightly better than the Bastard Son angle. Though, that is like saying getting punched really hard in the chest is better than getting kicked really hard in the balls.

I didn't say people did like the bastard son angle. I'm just saying, I find this more interesting (perhaps because of the era) than most of the angles the WWE runs today.

Moot points, the angle was turned to shit. Jericho wasn't serious enough of a character to have done it, he was a pompus ass/cowardly heel, not a ruthless heel willing to run of Austin, plus he was already heel, and that wouldn have taken away from it.

Chris Jericho was like one of the biggest faces the WWE had in 2000. I remember that much. I'll grant you that he was a joker, but exposing him as Austin's hit-and-run driver would have completely turned that on its head.

Beniot on the other hand is even worse on the mic than Rikishi (which is why he has mostly be kept off it or given a limited role on the mic when they had to) plus it would have made no sense.

Chris Benoit had Shane McMahon backing him for a lot of 2000, during a stint where I believe the WWE was teasing Chris Benoit in the main event (he was working with Triple H and The Rock a lot). Why would it have not made sense? Why couldn't the McMahon-Helmsley faction (which was not officially formed at this time, granted, but would have been coming together behind the scenes) not given Benoit a call, and said they'd bring him in if he ran down Austin? Why couldn't Benoit have known that he was going to leave WCW, so he decided to make a huge main event opening for himself?

It should have been the Rock, end of story.

I will accept that answer from other people, but because it is from you, I cannot trust it.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Anyhow, I'm done with this. It is clear you, Noid, do not understand the nuance....hell you don't really understand booking 101, forget nuance.

I'm shocked that you know what the word nuance means. Like, holy shit, did I read that right?

[Mr. Nerfect]

I wish it would have been Ken Shamrock. That would have been badass.

Kem Shamrock seemed like the kind of mentally unstable character to do that sort of shit. He would have been a good choice. Austin vs. Shamrock would have been a good feud, to be honest.

[Jeritron]

Owen Hart. Obviously this is purely theoretical because of the tragic events the year earlier.
I'm just saying, from a creative standpoint, had Owen still been around he would have been a fantastic culprit for the storyline.

[CSL]

Kem Shamrock seemed like the kind of mentally unstable character to do that sort of shit. He would have been a good choice. Austin vs. Shamrock would have been a good feud, to be honest.

I'm pretty sure Shamrock was gone before Austin got hit, let alone being there when he returned. Would have been better than Rikishi though.

They'd known Austin was hurt for a while and needed surgery. Push forward the injury angle a month to No Mercy 99 or even Unforgiven, delay the debut a month or two, have Jericho come out and take credit for it straight away. Austin could have gone after him as soon as he returned. If Jericho wasn't at an 'Austin level' for a feud, they could easily have just switched out Jericho for Triple H ala real life

[Mr. Nerfect]

Owen Hart. Obviously this is purely theoretical because of the tragic events the year earlier.
I'm just saying, from a creative standpoint, had Owen still been around he would have been a fantastic culprit for the storyline.

He would have truly been the best, actually. It would have made perfect sense, and could have really created an epic feud between the two.