Bret Hart vs. Shawn Michaels - Who was the better heel in 1997?

[Zeeboe]

I'm not trying to cause yet another debate between Team Hitman and Team HBK, nor am I wanting to discuss the screwjob yet again. I'm more interested in a conversation about what it takes to be a good heel, and what overall gets underneath the majority of people's skin more: An angry, self-righteous, Anti-American complainer with misanthrope tendencies, or an obnoxious, annoying, overgrown, out of control, 12-year old with antisocial tendencies?

[Savio]

Stop it

[Supreme Olajuwon]

It's 12 years later and people all over the world still despise HBK for what he did in 1997. Now THAT is a heel.

[Zeeboe]

Well, that's because he took a giant step out of the wrestling world, and into real life and did something bad. I'm talking about within the wrestling world only. i.e. I'm talking about the characters, not the men who played them.

EDIT: Futhermore, I'm also talking about the entire year of 1997, which would mostly be events before the screwjob when the Hitman and HBK were the top heels in the company.

[Johnny Vegas]

I'd say Bret. From what i remember, he wasn't HATED in the US, but damn near close all in just a matter of months.

[Savio]

10 Things I no longer care about:

Montreal Screw Job
Bret getting screwed
HBK screwing Bret
Vince screwing Bret
Bret screwing Bret
1997
Bret screwing Trish
The World screwing Canada
Bret Hart Face or Heel in '97
Bret Hart

[CSL]

I'm not trying to cause yet another debate between Team Hitman and Team HBK, nor am I wanting to discuss the screwjob yet again. I'm more interested in a conversation about what it takes to be a good heel, and what overall gets underneath the majority of people's skin more: An angry, self-righteous, Anti-American complainer with misanthrope tendencies, or an obnoxious, annoying, overgrown, out of control, 12-year old with antisocial tendencies?

I thought you said Bret wasn't a heel in 1997?

[Zeeboe]

Savior, dude, it's a wrestling board man. And like it or not, Bret Hart was a wrestler, and a very good one, and some of us are still interested, so if you don't care, you don't care. In other words, why are you posting here? Just live and let live.

I thought you said Bret wasn't a heel in 1997?

In America, he was. Just like how in 1993, Bret was a heel in Memphis wrestling, but was a face everywhere else.

[Savio]

good heels are heels everywhere end of story

[The MAC]

bret hart is in fashion on tpww.net

[Anybody Thrilla]

I really enjoyed the dynamic of Bret's character, but like Savior said, a good heel is a heel EVERYWHERE. I enjoyed Bret Hart more, but I think that HBK was the better heel.

[Zen v.W.o.]

HBK was mostly a face in 97.

Fact is, they did most of their shows in the US that year(like always) and Bret was their top heel on these shows.

I dont see the need for debate here.

[Zeeboe]

HBK was mostly a face in 97.

Fact is, they did most of their shows in the US that year(like always) and Bret was their top heel on these shows.

I dont see the need for debate here.

HBK became a heel after Summerslam, so that was at least over four months. Bret was a heel for about eight, but during their final feud together, they were both heels, and competing for the spot of the top bad guy, so that is the reason for a debate.

Any teenage male, twenty-something year old guy, or man-child can go on TV, & act like how Shawn Michaels acted at that time. Most wrestling fans are so immature, that DX ended up getting cheered just like Stone Cold Steve Austin did when he was suppose to be a heel, but it takes a true master of the craft to become a good bad guy. The whole point is to get booed, and to be a decent villian during an era where people wanted to cheer for the rebels, Bret Hart proved he was the only true heel of this time. He knew how to push people's buttons because he told the truth about America. Also, I think people took Bret more seriously whereas most just loved to hate HBK, or did infact, love him, whereas others had legit heat with Bret and truly hated him because he got their blood boiling.

[Zen v.W.o.]

If you think about it, to this day Bret still has his detractors simply because of how good he did at performing his job all those years ago.

[Savio]

^^Stop it

[Anybody Thrilla]

I wouldn't discredit HBK as far as saying that anybody could do it. HBK's backstory made it work. It was just a good time for HBK's schtick to pop with the crowd, seeing as to how he had just been the good, wholesome, boyhood dream acheiver just before his heel turn. Actually, I'd say his turn was a pretty natural transition to the character. After you've acheived it all, there's a chance you start getting cocky.

Bret's turn was also pretty natural, I'd say. He had been busting his ass for years for the fans, and they repaid him by cheering for guys who wear swearing and telling cock jokes over him. He should have been furious. It really almost felt like the fans were the heels in a sense.

What I would have liked to have seen would have been the Canadian reaction to Bret if he hadn't gone so pro-Canadian during his turn and just said that ALL the fans suck. They probably would have still cheered him anyway just because that's what Canadian fans do, but I wonder if the Candian Stampede show would have still been possible.

[Anybody Thrilla]

There are plenty of other threads for you to read if you don't like this one, Savior.

[Savio]

I've read them all

[Anybody Thrilla]

Have you voted in the Better Movie thread?

[Stickman]

Bret was not a heel to me. Any anti-american Canadian is a hero in my books.

[Zeeboe]

I'll be back later. As for now.....

^^Stop it

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[Nicky Fives]

I am a huge Bret fan, but HBK was a way better heel, even before the screwjob.... I believe it was cemented when he beat Davey Boy at One Night only in September for the European Title

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

good heels are heels everywhere end of story

You're a toolbox

[Savio]

You are a lunchbox.

[Zeeboe]

Well, in my view, Bret Hart was a MUCH better heel in 1997 then Shawn Michaels. What made Bret a great heel was he told the truth about Americans. Any mindless moron can go on TV, and act stupid, but it takes a true master of the craft to insult people, and come across as highly intelligent at the same time. Bret Hart won the PWI most hated wrestler of the year award. That proves Bret was the better bad guy. And Bret never had to say or do anything "shocking" to get heat, because that's just how good Bret was.

[James Steele]

PWI is canon. :roll:

[Zeeboe]

No clue what that means, but in case some of you are not aware, the fans are the ones who do the voting for the PWI awards, and HBK did get a nod. Also, D-X was cheered during it's first run by at least 50% of the crowd, so to me, that's not being a good heel.

[Dorkchop]

good heels are heels everywhere end of story

Except for Canadians because we barely boo each other.

[Zeeboe]

Let's compare:

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[4 knuckles up]

Zeeboe, if you stop bringing up this stupid Bret vs Shawn crap, I promise I'll stop fucking your mom.

[sulzerdrone]

Zeeboe, if you stop bringing up this stupid Bret vs Shawn crap, I promise I'll stop fucking your mom.

Don't make promises you can't keep.

Montreal screwed Canada!

[Zeeboe]

Zeeboe, if you stop bringing up this stupid Bret vs Shawn crap, I promise I'll stop fucking your mom.

I think you're mistaking reality with dreams, little boy. :)

[4 knuckles up]

I think you're mistaking reality with dreams, little boy. :)

If I were dreaming, the paper bag I put on her head wouldn't keep falling off.

[Zeeboe]

If I were dreaming, the paper bag I put on her head wouldn't keep falling off.

Why would you screw someone with a paper bag over their head? You some kinda strange freak? Or maybe it falls off because you sub-consciously want it to fall off? No, it's a dream. Sorry. :) (You're still a freak either way for that whole paper bag thing.)

[Rob]

Another fucking Bret and Shawn thread?

[Zeeboe]

Why not? I honestly would rather chat about that then today's product, as well as watch the old episodes then 2009 Raw, and I'm not the only one. Raw today is just "okay". It has a few good wrestlers, but overall, I'm just not digging it. Now then.....Heel Shawn Michaels meets Heel Bret Hart:

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[Rammsteinmad]

Who cares?

[James Steele]

Ahmed Johnson.

[AJHayes]

Bret Hart was a better heel.

Shawn Michaels was just being himself.

[Destor]

good heels are heels everywhere end of story
wrong

[The MAC]

they were tweeners.