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Old 07-21-2014, 01:09 AM   #641
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I get your point. You keep saying the same thing over and over again, it's hard not to get it. Come up with something else oh great OMNI.
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Old 07-21-2014, 01:10 AM   #642
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Well, clearly some of us are right and some of us are wrong, and it's going to stay that way.

But you know what will make it better? More Scott Steiner.
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Old 07-21-2014, 01:16 AM   #643
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seph View Post
I get your point. You keep saying the same thing over and over again, it's hard not to get it. Come up with something else oh great OMNI.
I don't think you do get my point. Everything you've said since I made it contradicts it. Your entire reasoning for why losing the match is beneficial to Wyatt in the long run is insane.
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Old 07-21-2014, 01:22 AM   #644
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Quote:
Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan View Post
... By splitting a feud with a guy who isn't looked at as a credible threat.

You're saying they should use Bray Wyatt to make Jericho look like a credible threat so that they can use Jericho to look Bray Wyatt look like a credibly threat. Do you not see the flaw in that logic?
It is perfect WWE logic and you know it. What could they do with Bray to keep his momentum up right now? Huh? Nothing. There is no one credible on the face side for him to feud with other than Cena. What, Reigns? That's it at the top right now and they aren't going to kill Reigns momentum because they need him as a face.

That's exactly why I said they are stagnating his momentum right now. In the current story, there is nothing for him at the top, really, so they can't risk forcing him to the top and they realize it. If he goes over Jericho now, it does nothing for him. Nada. But if you make people remember that "Hey, this Jericho guy is pretty damn good. I forgot he had it like that!" then you have Wyatt snap and destroy him people will be like "Damn Wyatt is pretty bad ass after all!" Then they probably have the rubber match and Wyatt goes over him again and comes out on top of a split feud instead of losing it, like he did with Cena, and it helps to SLOWLY build him up. Maybe by then they can get another decent feud lined up for him.

The only other thing they could have done was keep going with that pseudo Sheamus feud. But no one wants to see that because while Sheamus is good in the ring, he isn't that great with the stick. He can't keep up with Bray like Cena or Jericho or Bryan can in terms of that. And the stick is what makes Bray good, that is where he shines the most and there is no denying it. It's too bad Punk isn't around, because that would be incredible. They need time with Bray and they are trying to buy it by stalling.
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Old 07-21-2014, 01:38 AM   #645
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Sure it's WWE logic. WWE logic has been horribly flawed over recent years when it comes to building guys up as stars though. Hell, just look at every guy Jericho has put over in his recent outings. I have no problem with Wyatt feuding with Jericho at this point just based on the fact that coming out of the Cena feud, there wasn't anywhere to go opponent-wise but down.

You're trying to make sense of the WWE logic though. If he goes over Jericho now, it's not a huge deal but at least it's a win. THAT keeps his momentum stagnant while they stall for a more marquee feud. If he splits a feud with Jericho... it makes him look even less threatening. It makes them look on par with each other. If they put Jericho over some OTHER solid guys first so that he was a guy you'd WANNA be on par with, that's one thing. As it stands, Bray Wyatt is fighting an uphill battle just to even things up with a guy who was last seen jobbing cleanly to the likes of Ryback and Fandango. And now we're supposed to be impressed if Wyatt can simply even the score with him.
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Old 07-21-2014, 01:44 AM   #646
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This sounds pretty bad. I think I'm not even going to watch the replay.
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Old 07-21-2014, 02:06 AM   #647
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Quote:
Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan View Post
I don't think you do get my point. Everything you've said since I made it contradicts it. Your entire reasoning for why losing the match is beneficial to Wyatt in the long run is insane.
I get your point on this. I just don't agree with it entirely. Getting the fans to cool off on him first on their own gives him context for dropping the cheap pop at the entrance. I don't want him to just drop it for no reason; that's cheap heat and it kinda goes against the effort they are putting into his character development. Bray has reasons for what he says and does, so instead of just dropping it (RKO) out of nowhere, give the fans a reason to stop caring as much about the face move, which in turn gives Bray a reason to turn on them a bit instead of pandering to them and thus a reason to stop the face move. It may not be the best way to do it, but stalling his momentum a bit and cooling the fans off can give him a better opening to turn more heelish and stay in line with his character. I'm honestly having trouble explaining this situation, clearly. I can't quite get the right words I'm looking for but I hope that makes a little more sense. I don't want them to change him without his character having a reason for the change, is all, if that makes better sense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan View Post
Sure it's WWE logic. WWE logic has been horribly flawed over recent years when it comes to building guys up as stars though. Hell, just look at every guy Jericho has put over in his recent outings. I have no problem with Wyatt feuding with Jericho at this point just based on the fact that coming out of the Cena feud, there wasn't anywhere to go opponent-wise but down.

You're trying to make sense of the WWE logic though. If he goes over Jericho now, it's not a huge deal but at least it's a win. THAT keeps his momentum stagnant while they stall for a more marquee feud. If he splits a feud with Jericho... it makes him look even less threatening. It makes them look on par with each other. If they put Jericho over some OTHER solid guys first so that he was a guy you'd WANNA be on par with, that's one thing. As it stands, Bray Wyatt is fighting an uphill battle just to even things up with a guy who was last seen jobbing cleanly to the likes of Ryback and Fandango. And now we're supposed to be impressed if Wyatt can simply even the score with him.
I actually somewhat agree with you here. In a perfect situation, they could have Jericho go over some other people first to build his credibility. I would much rather that be the case here, but if you do that, where would you stick Bray in the meantime?

With Punk leaving and Bryan being injured, there is a huge lack of faces at the top for Bray to feud with. And unfortunately, they are tied up with The Authority. Sure, you can stick him in the mid-card for a bit, but that only leaves a few guys credible enough for him to work with at the level he has attained already. The likes of Sheamus, which I already explained why I think that's a bad idea, or Ziggler maybe but he needs to be getting pushed right now as well. Really, they could feed him a lesser title like the U.S. or IC but I don't think they want that because he is clearly going to be in the WWE title scene and dropping the lesser title to a mid-carder eventually would hurt that prospect. The best option would have been to vault a current midcard face to the top and have Bray feud with them for awhile, but there was no time to build up a midcard face to that level, other than, once again, Sheamus.

There really is nothing for him right now; he needed someone like a Jericho. And yes, they could have him go over Jericho immediately. But as it stands, Jericho is the current star jobber. You reference Ryback, and I honestly forgot about Fandango (UHG) going over him, and look what happened? There was nothing for them in the end and they fell off into the abyss.

I also don't think he will just even the score with Jericho, but instead come out 2-1 or even 3-1 over him, and at some point proving that he doesn't need his minions help to do it. Like you said and I agree with, it would have been better to build Jericho a bit first, but they didn't have the time for that so the only other option is to try and make Jericho look legit during the feud. It may not be perfect, but there are not many other options right now.
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Old 07-21-2014, 02:09 AM   #648
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Wyatt should be the WWE champion right now, Rowan & Harper should be tag champions, and Cesaro should be the IC champion.

No idea what they are doing with these guys anymore, but they had such great momentum. It should have been capitalized. Instead they're focusing on the much less talented Roman Reigns. Fucking hell.
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Old 07-21-2014, 02:15 AM   #649
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The whole problem is the lack of top draw faces right now. They just have nowhere for him to go. And it downright sucks.

I'm just trying to make sense of why they are doing what they are doing with him so that I don't lose hope. Bray is my favorite persona in a LOOOOONG time and I don't want them to drop the ball like they always do, y'know?

If only The Rock was available to feud with him and do the job. Or even Big Show, really.

I tell you what though, after this little debate between us #1-wwf-fan, I have come to a new understanding about why they gave the title to Cena again. They really had no other choice because of the circumstances and story lines. And I think that may actually also be the reason why Bray didn't go over Cena in their feud. If Punk and Bryan had still been around at the time, I think that whole scenario would have turned out quite a bit differently.
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Old 07-21-2014, 02:27 AM   #650
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An easy way to build up Jericho for a bit while not just letting Bray do nothing in the meantime: Scripted injury. WWE doesn't do that enough and it's a good method of stretching a feud and building anticipation for two guys to finally make contact. You let Jericho get some wins heading into Battleground, Wyatt gets "injured" and Jericho has to face someone else. Hell, as much as I don't like the gimmick on him, make use of "Bray-mion Sandow". Or even better, you could have him face Seth Rollins now that he doesn't have a match and make Jericho look strong by going a good 15 minutes with Mr. Money in the Bank in a great match before a non-finish with Ambrose coming back into the building to attack. Then you have Wyatt come out and beat Jericho down with his crutches, proving it was all set up and he was just playing mind games and you've built up the SummerSlam match with Jericho looking more competitive and Wyatt not continuing his downward spiral from the Cena feud.
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Old 07-21-2014, 02:36 AM   #651
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Did not think about that and it is a pretty good idea.

They should have played it off on Bray's nasty shiner he's had going on for the last 10 days or so. Acted like he needed surgery on his eye or his orbital bone or something.

I think the reason Ambrose and Rollins didn't have an actual match tonight though may have something to do with Rollins being legit injured though. When he got hurt on RAW, I thought it was real. Then he came out on Smackdown and I was like oh, it was a work. But I'm pretty sure I noticed him limping a little bit tonight still, so I'm thinking he just has a minor sprain right now or something and they didn't want to risk a full on match just yet.

But yeah, your idea is not a bad one at all.
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Old 07-21-2014, 02:57 AM   #652
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The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of The Usos retaining. They've got more staying power as a team than any team we've seen in a while since there can't be much of an urge to ever break them up. I like the idea of them going over a couple guys who have been feuding with main eventers recently but can't quite figure out how to take the tag titles from these two. It brings up the prestige of the titles and it makes The Usos seem like they could be a legit, long-term Road Warrior/Steiner-esque uppercard tag team.
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Old 07-21-2014, 03:06 AM   #653
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Just read through that whole convo above about Bray & Jericho. Both you guys make good points.

IMO, the only way that Jericho winning would have made sense, would have been if he got Bray in a school boy (or similar pinning move) in a very short amount of time, possibly not even a minute. Then Bray snapped and went to town on Jericho with chairs and kendo sticks and bowling balls and thumbs tacks and whatever the hell else they keep under the ring, after the match was over. All while taunting Chris with "Save yourself from this ass whooping Chris, save yourself" after every friggin' chair shot.

Oh wait, that's probably not PG...nevermind
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Old 07-21-2014, 03:46 AM   #654
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"SOME PEOPLE STAAAAAAND IN THE DARKNESS, AFRAID TO STEP INTOOOOO THE LIIIIIGHT...."
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Old 07-21-2014, 03:53 AM   #655
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While I hate the decision to ever "cool something off", especially at a time like this when the landscape has been stagnant for so long, clearly this is going a while, and if the company has ANY creative ideas for this, then it'll be Wyatt's feud, with Wyatt dominating the TV push and winning in the end. So while I'm not at all fond of Bray losing here, Bray did need an incentive to go on to push the envelope with this feud, because so far they're linked together for no real reason.

A good decision made for a bad reason, I suppose.
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Old 07-21-2014, 10:17 AM   #656
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Quote:
Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan View Post
Sure it's WWE logic. WWE logic has been horribly flawed over recent years when it comes to building guys up as stars though. Hell, just look at every guy Jericho has put over in his recent outings. I have no problem with Wyatt feuding with Jericho at this point just based on the fact that coming out of the Cena feud, there wasn't anywhere to go opponent-wise but down.

You're trying to make sense of the WWE logic though. If he goes over Jericho now, it's not a huge deal but at least it's a win. THAT keeps his momentum stagnant while they stall for a more marquee feud. If he splits a feud with Jericho... it makes him look even less threatening. It makes them look on par with each other. If they put Jericho over some OTHER solid guys first so that he was a guy you'd WANNA be on par with, that's one thing. As it stands, Bray Wyatt is fighting an uphill battle just to even things up with a guy who was last seen jobbing cleanly to the likes of Ryback and Fandango. And now we're supposed to be impressed if Wyatt can simply even the score with him.
Wyatt is now on a 3 PPV losing streak, if you want to count that PPV cage match win against Cena as a win. Cena gets 10 visionary wins in the match only to lose to a demonic 9 year old.

They're in dangerous territory with Bray, he's been saying the same thing over and over again for months but can't win. The crowd even turned on RAW and started with the boring chants. We get the guy can talk, but it means nothing when they're all empty threats.
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Old 07-21-2014, 03:27 PM   #657
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If I'd paid for this show I'd be disappointed, but I didn't so...

Definitely feels like SummerSlam: Part I which is a shame in two ways;

1) if you paid for the show you should get a show, complete with story progression/conclusion. Not just another episode of Raw.

2) SummerSlam, as the second biggest show of the year, should have plenty of first-run matches. They booked themselves into a corner, they did a good job pushing Rollins/Ambrose back but also had to deliver a non-finish with Swagger/Rusev and a momentum killer for Bray. We're expecting Lesnar/Cena II, a repeat of Swagger/Rusev, a sequel to Bray/Jericho, Reigns/Orton (who've been in a number of matches with one another), probably Paige/AJ again, etc. Almost feel Battleground should have taken place after SummerSlam.

On the plus side, the Tag Title match was great. Not sure what The Usos do now, though.
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Old 07-21-2014, 03:29 PM   #658
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The way I see it. I pay for the network because of the library and I get the PPVs also.
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Old 07-21-2014, 05:35 PM   #659
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that's the exact opposite of how i view it.
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Old 07-21-2014, 05:58 PM   #660
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which is any normal human's view when compared to stdamon
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Old 07-21-2014, 06:09 PM   #661
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Whats the issue with Jericho winning? It's probably a 2-3 month feud. If Wyatt wins last night then what's the point of a rematch? Jericho has nothing to prove but Wyatt does. Wyatt winning last night basically ends the feud right therr.
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Old 07-21-2014, 06:12 PM   #662
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6.5/10

Decent, missed it 'live' so I saw it at 12am, skipped past the boring stuff.
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Old 07-21-2014, 06:43 PM   #663
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bad News Gertner View Post
Whats the issue with Jericho winning? It's probably a 2-3 month feud. If Wyatt wins last night then what's the point of a rematch? Jericho has nothing to prove but Wyatt does. Wyatt winning last night basically ends the feud right therr.
I think the issue is wider than just this loss. Wyatt talks a big game but has lost at the last 3/4 PPVs.

Of course, this is a lose-lose situation.

If Bray had been winning these big matches then people would bitch that he lost to Jericho and because Y2J always loses it makes Bray look weak.

If Bray wins, people bitch that it means nothing because Jericho always loses so a win over him means nothing.

And like you said, if Bray wins, where do they go then? I guess you have Jericho come back for more.
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Old 07-21-2014, 07:00 PM   #664
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I'm sure Jericho won as it would continue their feud into SummerSlam and then that's where Bray will win.

Why give Bray a win over a veteran like Jericho at a PPV that's only two years old? That stage isn't big enough, and if he had won last night, the feud would pretty much be over as "we all saw it coming" and most fans wouldn't be invested in the rest of what was left of the feud.

But with Jericho winning, it will lead to another match at SummerSlam, which will give more time for the feud to grow, and give Bray a much larger stage to win on, with SummerSlam being the second biggest PPV in the WWE's calendar.

Gaining a victory over a veteran on the second biggest stage is quite something. I wouldn't be surprised if their match at SummerSlam has a stipulation, and isn't just your average one on one singles match like last night.
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Old 07-21-2014, 07:06 PM   #665
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6.5/10

Decent, missed it 'live' so I saw it at 12am, skipped past the boring stuff.
So you didn't watch anything after the tag match?
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Old 07-21-2014, 07:48 PM   #666
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I watched half the tag match, The Seth Rollins stuff, the Wyatt/Y2J match and 75% of the main the event.
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Old 07-21-2014, 07:48 PM   #667
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If I'd paid for this show I'd be disappointed, but I didn't so...

Definitely feels like SummerSlam: Part I which is a shame in two ways;

1) if you paid for the show you should get a show, complete with story progression/conclusion. Not just another episode of Raw.

2) SummerSlam, as the second biggest show of the year, should have plenty of first-run matches. They booked themselves into a corner, they did a good job pushing Rollins/Ambrose back but also had to deliver a non-finish with Swagger/Rusev and a momentum killer for Bray. We're expecting Lesnar/Cena II, a repeat of Swagger/Rusev, a sequel to Bray/Jericho, Reigns/Orton (who've been in a number of matches with one another), probably Paige/AJ again, etc. Almost feel Battleground should have taken place after SummerSlam.

On the plus side, the Tag Title match was great. Not sure what The Usos do now, though.

This. I think WWE get off with stupid things at times because of who they are. If TNA had put something similar on, people would be all lolTNA.

Ok, Jericho beating Wyatt would normally be fine, but it's 3rd PPV loss in a row and boring chant is a bad sign. They are pushing the tag champions, while splitting all the teams. One of the top matches on the card didn't happen, ok for TV but not PPV imo. Cesaro was eliminated by Slater after everything that happened at Mania. Don't wait until Miz is over again, just stick belt on him and hope that helps him. It's poor and it's lazy and ending the show with Cena as champ is appropriate because it looks like they will still be needing him there in 5 years time.
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Old 07-21-2014, 07:52 PM   #668
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I'm sure Jericho won as it would continue their feud into SummerSlam and then that's where Bray will win.

Why give Bray a win over a veteran like Jericho at a PPV that's only two years old? That stage isn't big enough, and if he had won last night, the feud would pretty much be over as "we all saw it coming" and most fans wouldn't be invested in the rest of what was left of the feud.

But with Jericho winning, it will lead to another match at SummerSlam, which will give more time for the feud to grow, and give Bray a much larger stage to win on, with SummerSlam being the second biggest PPV in the WWE's calendar.

Gaining a victory over a veteran on the second biggest stage is quite something. I wouldn't be surprised if their match at SummerSlam has a stipulation, and isn't just your average one on one singles match like last night.

This is what I made my thread about. It's a lose lose. Jericho has lost to everyone on his recent runs, and while that is admirable and shows his love for the business, it is hard to know what to do.

Awin over Jericho, no matter what the stage, isn't that big a deal anymore. It should be, but it isn't. A loss...Bray will do in 2 times, what it took Fandango to do in one...
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Old 07-21-2014, 08:21 PM   #669
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Yeah but Jericho is seen as a big deal to the casual fan which represents the vast majority of the audiebce. He comes and goes so often that people forget shit like him losing to Fandango at Wrestlemania.
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Old 07-21-2014, 08:25 PM   #670
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Old 07-21-2014, 08:29 PM   #671
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Quote:
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that's the exact opposite of how i view it.
I agree with this. I got the network for WM as I was not invited to the party in Chicago
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Old 07-21-2014, 08:30 PM   #672
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I agree with Gertie about Jericho, he comes back and it's a big deal. The casuals forget he lost to Fandango, Ziggler, Ryback, and JTG
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Old 07-21-2014, 08:38 PM   #673
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that logic just points out a different flaw in their booking, though. and i don't have a problem with bray losing, but it's not like he looked particularly strong coming out of that match. it was kind of a weak effort all around.
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Old 07-21-2014, 09:01 PM   #674
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They might forget his individual losses. They don't forget the general idea that he comes back to lose and is no longer a real threat. He comes back to put over jobbers because they have no concept of putting thought into who they use him to try to put over.

I get "Bray had to lose because it's gonna be a 3 month long feud and they need to stretch it out." So just... don't make it a 3 month long feud. Or find a way not to have them have a match right off the bat like I mentioned above. Or simply find a way to keep the feud going the next night on Raw anyway if you're intent on stretching it out. Not every feud needs to have both guys lose a match to make them look even. No one ends up looking like a threat and it doesn't get anyone over.
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Old 07-21-2014, 09:29 PM   #675
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bad News Gertner View Post
Yeah but Jericho is seen as a big deal to the casual fan which represents the vast majority of the audiebce. He comes and goes so often that people forget shit like him losing to Fandango at Wrestlemania.
I see your point, but I don't think I believe that in 2014. The majority of wrestling fans are on the internet now, voicing opinions, reading up on news, getting on social media. I don't think WWE give their fans enough credit with regards to their memory.

Still think it all points to a bigger problem, if he had just beaten Cena , it wouldn't have been as large an issue. Cena has won at the last 14 PPV's, he really didn't need to beat Bray imo. It's 2014 and the only guy getting a sustained push is John Cena
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Old 07-21-2014, 10:35 PM   #676
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They really aren't. It's a ton of families and casual viewers. I bet if you asked 100 fans who Jericho faced in his last Wrestlemania match I bet half couldn't name Fandango. I almost forgot that Jericho didn't wrestle at Wresylemania this year and I'm more than a casual fan that's for sure.
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Old 07-21-2014, 10:37 PM   #677
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again, that's more a knock on how forgettable a lot of the booking is than a defense for what they're doing.
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Old 07-21-2014, 10:48 PM   #678
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Not saying that it isn't one bit, but it's still the case.
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Old 07-21-2014, 11:17 PM   #679
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Still think it all points to a bigger problem, if he had just beaten Cena , it wouldn't have been as large an issue. Cena has won at the last 14 PPV's, he really didn't need to beat Bray imo. It's 2014 and the only guy getting a sustained push is John Cena
He lost to bray in a cage.
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Old 07-21-2014, 11:19 PM   #680
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They really aren't. It's a ton of families and casual viewers. I bet if you asked 100 fans who Jericho faced in his last Wrestlemania match I bet half couldn't name Fandango. I almost forgot that Jericho didn't wrestle at Wresylemania this year and I'm more than a casual fan that's for sure.
Families and casual viewers also don't remember when Jericho was actually booked as a threat to anyone. That was a much longer time ago.
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