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Old 06-20-2017, 01:38 AM   #1
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The brand split makes it incredibly hard to do a succinct SummerSlam
One of my biggest problems with the brand split is that there is just too much. You have 9 (!) champions between the main roster. A lot of them are parallel champions too. I *do* get the "each brand is supposed to be its separate universe, so having champions on each show makes sense" argument. I've come to favor the "what does being a champion mean if you're not actually the definitive best on your show?" response, though. Imagine Joe Casual tuning in to a WWE joint-brand PPV and seeing two women's matches for the World Title and two tag team matches to decide the best tag team in the world. It distracts and it detracts.

NOTE: I don't think casual fans actually watch the PPVs (legally, anyway). The RAW viewship, while dwindling, doesn't equate to the WWE Network subscription numbers. Most people watch RAW and don't plunk down a measly $9.99 a month to get the complete PPV library of mainstream professional wrestling and the bimonthly PPV extravaganzas.

When you put every championship in a prominent role at the dual-brand PPVs, you end up with 9 title matches, meaning you're going more and longer for personal issues, grudge matches, special attractions, possible high-level debuts and gimmick matches. It's a headache to try and book a show that isn't fatiguing around all those issues -- many of which are going to seem almost eerily parallel to the stories on the other show.

So how do you book a succinct and effective SummerSlam card? One that gets every prominent player on, but doesn't feel like "this title match, this title match, this title match, this upper mid-card feud, this upper mid-card feud," etc? There are so many RAW storylines that you can make an 11 or so match card with just that side of the roster. How do you have a show build in importance with these imposed conditions?

I was just meditating on this, and giving things breathing room, here is a go at how I would go about it:

* Brock vs. Strowman for the Universal Title
* Say My Name Match: Joe vs. Reigns
* Mahal vs. Cena vs. Orton for the WWE Title
* Seth vs. Wyatt in a match where if Seth loses he has to join Bray or leave RAW; and if Seth wins, Wyatt leaves RAW
* Miz vs. Ambrose in a Ladder Match for the IC Title
* Shinsuke Nakamura, AJ Styles & Sami Zayn vs. Baron Corbin, Kevin Owens & Dolph Ziggler in an Elimination Tag
* Alexa vs. Nia for the RAW Women's Title
* Neville vs. Balor for the Cruiserweight Title
* Enzo vs. Cass (maybe in some sort of Chain Match, but a PG version)
* Becky & Shane McMahon vs. Carmella & James Ellsworth
* The Usos vs. The New Day for the SmackDown Tag Team Titles

That's still 11 matches and it leaves off The Hardys and Cesaro & Sheamus (who I feel have probably played out their biggest matches and are better served to television, despite The Hardys' appeal). There's also no SmackDown Women's Title match. But that's basically everyone on, with a weighted importance given to the ongoing stories that could conceivably land on the SummerSlam platform. Jamming Balor into the Cruiserweight Title match feels forced, but where else does he get paired up? Another clusterfuck up the card?

Do you like the current direction of WWE, and how do you feel about these super-cards that try to put everything on and don't really give things room to breathe? Is giving air-time to everyone detrimental? Does leaving certain championships off your dual-brand shows help them or hurt the belts?
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Old 06-20-2017, 10:19 AM   #2
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Fashion Police if they can keep their momentum up should win the titles at SummerSlam.
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Old 06-20-2017, 03:17 PM   #3
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There's pros and cons of course.

The split allows for breathing space that allows guys that would otherwise be doing nothing to get a little shine, but also means we keep burning through matches that should probably be kept in the back pocket/repeating matches constantly.

As for the titles, I do think not featuring one affects its perceived prestige; especially if the opposite title is featured (I.e. the Raw Women's title will look better if it's on SummerSlam and the SDL one isn't) and it does cause issues with sandwiching in all the storylines/top talent.

They could be a little smart and book some of the more fringe title matches on the post-PPV Raw/SDL to make them feel special.
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Old 06-20-2017, 03:26 PM   #4
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I kinda feel like for the two non-brand exclusive PPVs that DON'T have multi-man matches (WrestleMania and SummerSlam), they should just do yearly battle royals for bragging rights.

A) It's an easy way to get major-show exposure for your lower-card guys.
B) It's an easy way to push a guy without necessarily ruining everyone else's momentum.
C) Everyone loves battle royals.
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Old 06-20-2017, 03:29 PM   #5
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The trick is just giving poeple the night off. Multiman matches shit on everyone involved 9/10 times. Lke the womens title matches at mania. It's basically saying "none of you really stand out so everyone gets in." it's lazy and it shits on your talent.


Let guys sit it out so you can highlight the ones that are of another teir. These cross brand shows shouldnt be all inclusive they should be for the hottest people going into that particular show.


If you want on the big 4 you gotta get over...no more of this token *insert multi-man-match here* just to cram talent onto the show.
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Old 06-20-2017, 04:25 PM   #6
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Old 06-20-2017, 07:35 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan View Post
I kinda feel like for the two non-brand exclusive PPVs that DON'T have multi-man matches (WrestleMania and SummerSlam), they should just do yearly battle royals for bragging rights.

A) It's an easy way to get major-show exposure for your lower-card guys.
B) It's an easy way to push a guy without necessarily ruining everyone else's momentum.
C) Everyone loves battle royals.
WrestleMania does have a battle royal though.
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Old 06-20-2017, 11:48 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XL View Post

The split allows for breathing space that allows guys that would otherwise be doing nothing to get a little shine, but also means we keep burning through matches that should probably be kept in the back pocket/repeating matches constantly.
I have always been a proponent of brand split, with one huge caveat: they use it what it was supposed to be used for.

The problem they have run into BOTH attempts is that they get into a pattern of trotting out the same people on each show every week. The only reason, for example, that Brock isn't stale by now is because of his "gilded schedule" (thanks, Joe). If he were just some rank and file guy on the roster, you bet your ass he would be on RAW three segments a night at least. He doesn't need to be, and they need to treat some of the "lesser" talent the same way. You don't need to cram your "stars" into every broadcast for people to remember them.

This is an area where NXT is still doing it better... and they're supposed to be the goddamn training grounds. Asuka isn't on TV every week for us to know she's Queen Bitch of Full Sail Mountain. Bobby Rooooo isn't getting the HHH reign of doom where he has to promo 15 minutes at the top of every show AND be in the main event every airing. They use the hour wisely, and rotate shit but people are still aware of the DIY breakup, or the looming AoP/Heavy Machinery feud, or Ember Moon waiting in the wings for an Asuka showdown, etc., etc., and also find time to plot a course for Alestair Blacks or Oney Lorkins or Chunky Chris Heros.


RAW and Smackdown are littered with reminders of things that just happened, overexposing the same talent weekly to the point that the feud that could last for four months gets burned up from matches, vignettes, and backstage shenanigans inside of four weeks, when they could have AT LEAST padded some of that out by not addressing it for a week in between. Use that time to expose new talent, create a more robust midcard, build up believable contenders. Instead, the PPV is just more of the same shit everyone has seen every week with "throwaway" matches, but suddenly this one time, it's supposed to be a big deal.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Destor View Post
The trick is just giving poeple the night off. Multiman matches shit on everyone involved 9/10 times. Lke the womens title matches at mania. It's basically saying "none of you really stand out so everyone gets in." it's lazy and it shits on your talent.


Let guys sit it out so you can highlight the ones that are of another teir. These cross brand shows shouldnt be all inclusive they should be for the hottest people going into that particular show.


If you want on the big 4 you gotta get over...no more of this token *insert multi-man-match here* just to cram talent onto the show.
Yeah, this too. Just throwing talent in the ring all at once isn't the same as letting them grow... but that "getting over" part is the double edged sword: you can't get over without exposure, but with that particular exposure of just being a warm body collecting a paycheck doesn't do the person any favors either.
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Old 06-21-2017, 08:25 AM   #9
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There are tons of opportunities for exposure outside of summerslam
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Old 06-21-2017, 02:55 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Savio View Post
WrestleMania does have a battle royal though.
Oh yeah. I forgot. It's been pretty horribly used. In theory though, if they didn't give it to guys who haven't really done much after, it could be a star-maker. Need to actually put some thought into who's winning it so it can be prestigious.
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Old 06-21-2017, 02:59 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Destor View Post
The trick is just giving poeple the night off. Multiman matches shit on everyone involved 9/10 times. Lke the womens title matches at mania. It's basically saying "none of you really stand out so everyone gets in." it's lazy and it shits on your talent.


Let guys sit it out so you can highlight the ones that are of another teir. These cross brand shows shouldnt be all inclusive they should be for the hottest people going into that particular show.


If you want on the big 4 you gotta get over...no more of this token *insert multi-man-match here* just to cram talent onto the show.
I would agree with you if battle royals weren't entertaining as fuck. And if they aren't booked like shit, people CAN actually get over from them. Not even just the winner.
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Old 06-21-2017, 03:12 PM   #12
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People *can* get over from anything. People rarely do get over in battle royals. Better off booking another angle with heat on it and giving the other 28 guys or whatever the night off.
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Old 06-21-2017, 03:19 PM   #13
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Are you against the idea of The Andre the Giant Memorial Battle Royal?
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Old 06-21-2017, 03:20 PM   #14
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No. Once a year is fine.
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Old 06-21-2017, 03:26 PM   #15
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Actually, even though I kinda hate the whole MITB idea, they could just scrap the PPV and have an 8-10 match MITB match every year at SummerSlam with guys from both brands. If you're gonna do it, I'd prefer that to the PPV. Now all 4 non-brand exclusive PPVs have their own unique ways of including more guys that all actually have some meaning.
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Old 06-21-2017, 03:27 PM   #16
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I could live with that
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Old 06-21-2017, 05:38 PM   #17
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I like the idea of the MITB winner getting to choose a champion. This "brand exclusive" shit is bollocks.
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Old 06-22-2017, 07:22 AM   #18
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Some really good stuff in here.

I've thought about the Battle Royal idea before. I think they do feel lazy and do kind of suck, but there is a story you can tell with them. I wouldn't create a belt for it, but you could do a running Battle Royal champion thing. Guys can see how long they can remain "Battle Royalty" for. Eh, it feels like a bit of a miss, but whatever.

Destor is right -- you need to give guys the night off. If you didn't have brand exclusive PPVs, you could still do varied dual-brand PPVs by having an Orton program be the star focus of one and a Cena program be the star focus of the other. You can give plenty of other talent opportunities to hit the ball out of the park with a hot opener, and if they succeed, you can program them into other high profile stuff.

I just feel like it's all a bit bloated. People jump to "it's give more talent more opportunities" like it is a good thing. For wrestling and for the talent. On the surface it might seem like it, but if your position on the card is to be in a clusterfuck that conditions people not to care about you, making it ultimately harder to get over and get a better overall position, then you might as well be left off and be focused on when you are good.
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Old 06-22-2017, 03:37 PM   #19
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Just to expand on my thiughts on multiman matches:

As rule theyre bad, but obviously that rule isnt absolute. The rumble is good. If kept rare the andre battle royal is fine. Hasnt really payed off for anyone but i dont object to it. MitB as an annual match is fine. Survivor Series...,doesnt really do business...there are no stakes...one night tourny would be much better..put a belt up too...i dunno...im fine with them though. None of those are what im complaining about.

Its theuncalled for 3 ways, 4 ways, 5 ways, 6 ways, 6 man tags, 8 man tags, 10 man tags and so on. Just to give guys a spot "just cuz." No one gets anything out of those and in many way it just makes the participants feel like filler. Even the winners get little out of them. Instead send 2 guys out and just let them work. Let them have a killer gem. WCW used to be really good about this. Throw a match together with two guys who pair favorably and let them get over between the bells.

In the long run everyone is better for it. "Everyone gets over the same way: by having good matches." - Mick Foley
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Old 06-22-2017, 03:44 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by drave View Post
I like the idea of the MITB winner getting to choose a champion. This "brand exclusive" shit is bollocks.
I too would prefer MITB to be interbrand. I believe the MITB gimmick is played out but if it must exist I'd rather it not be tied to a specific title opportunity.

Gives an easy way for people to switch brands too as Edge and Jack Swagger did when they cashed in.
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Old 06-22-2017, 04:45 PM   #21
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Agreed.
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Old 06-22-2017, 07:54 PM   #22
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I'd like Money in the Bank to go away now. Who was the last guy to actually get over with the concept? Ziggler got a good pop when he cashed in, but his reign and consequent career haven't truly benefited. Seth Rollins was interesting with the briefcase, and the Mania cash-in was the best exit strategy they had (well, I actually don't think that, but whatever), and his title reign was the dogs' balls.

Every time the holder cashes in, they look like a chump. No one takes the reign seriously, and the booking of modern WWE characters is realistically just not going to help them.
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Old 06-22-2017, 07:58 PM   #23
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I think they will keep it around as a "wild card" if you will. For the moments where they just don't know what the fuck to do or how to properly end a feud which culminates with a championship match.

It gives them that "out" in that sense and also if someone "gets white hot" without them expecting it and striking while its hot.
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Old 06-22-2017, 08:00 PM   #24
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Eh, a lot of it would come down to their choice as to who they put it on. I don't trust them, frankly.
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Old 06-22-2017, 08:11 PM   #25
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I don't either, nor do I think it is a "good thing". It made sense for Edge, as it was a gimmick that was made for his "ultimate opprotunist" gimmick. Beyond that though, it is very underwhelming for a "title match" to be so short and.... ZzzzzZZZzzzz


.... sorry what?
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Old 06-22-2017, 08:27 PM   #26
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I used to love it at the time, and it did make perfect sense for Edge. There was no precedent there. But after Edge, don't you think they would have rectified that loop-hole in the contract?
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Old 06-22-2017, 08:29 PM   #27
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Actually, I would be fine with the gimmick if the champion needed to announce their match. Cena could win the WWE Title from Mahal on July 4th SmackDown and then defend it against Corbin at SummerSlam. Cena could retain and Corbin can go into "what is really my destiny?" mode. Whatever, that's fine.
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Old 06-22-2017, 09:01 PM   #28
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Really don't think Cena should take the title from Mahal. I know it is somewhat of a "myth" but guys he has faced down in the past have a history of disappearing.
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Old 06-22-2017, 09:09 PM   #29
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I feel like they should theme the PPVs a bit better so they have similar themes but with names like Great Balls of Fire that not happening. Like if Smackdown has Money in the Bank than Raw should have King of the Ring the same month and switch them every year.
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Old 06-22-2017, 09:18 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drave View Post
Really don't think Cena should take the title from Mahal. I know it is somewhat of a "myth" but guys he has faced down in the past have a history of disappearing.
Yeah I agree. Dont think Cena will go straight for the title when returns though. Once Mahal gets past Randy I'm not really sure where they go with him and I dont think Corbin will cash in on him. Could see Randy winning and Corbin cashing in to do a 3 way program before just doing Corbin/Orton maybe. With Cena probably doing both shows I doubt he'll be involved in any title picture until he signs with one which I assume they'll do a whole segment for.
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Old 06-22-2017, 10:01 PM   #31
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Quote:
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Really don't think Cena should take the title from Mahal. I know it is somewhat of a "myth" but guys he has faced down in the past have a history of disappearing.
I've got no problem with Mahal disappearing, really.
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Old 06-22-2017, 10:01 PM   #32
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This whole run seems primed to basically split the difference between him being a main eventer and a jobber and leave him as a serviceable mid-carder until the end of time.
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Old 06-23-2017, 04:53 AM   #33
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It's not easy but here's an attempt...

--SummerSlam--

Universal Championship: Singles Match
Brock Lesnar (c) vs. Braun Strowman

WWE Championship Singles Match: Special Guest Referee Baron Corbin
Jinder Mahal (c) (with The Singh Bros) vs. John Cena

"Say My Name" Match (I like that Noid)
Roman Reigns vs. Samoa Joe

United States Championship: Singles Match
Kevin Owens (c) vs. Sami Zayn

No. 1 Contenders SummerSlam Rematch: Singles Match
Seth Rollins vs. Finn Balor

Singles Match
Colin Cassady vs. Big Show

Singles Match
AJ Styles vs. Shinsuke Nakamura

Raw Tag Team Championship: Tag Team Match
The Hardy Boyz (c) vs. The Revival

SmackDown Women's Championship: Ladder Match
Naomi (c) vs. Charlotte Flair

--SummerSlam Kickoff--

WWE Cruiserweight Championship Singles Match presented by The Titus Brand
Neville (c) vs. Akira Tozawa

Singles Match
Mike Kanellis (with Maria) vs. Tye Dillinger

--Raw--

Intercontinental Championship: Steel Cage Match
The Miz (c) (with The Entourage) vs. Dean Ambrose

Raw Women's Championship: Singles Match
Alexa Bliss (c) vs. Sasha Banks

--SmackDown Live--

Tag Team Championships: Falls Count Anywhere
The Usos (c) vs. The New Day
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Old 06-23-2017, 05:04 AM   #34
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"Say My Name" Match (I like that Noid)
Roman Reigns vs. Samoa Joe
Awesome.
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Old 06-23-2017, 05:05 AM   #35
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There's some room for manoeuvre in there/I hadn't realised there's a SDL PPV before SummerSlam to end some feuds.

I left Bray off, I imagine he'll lose to Seth and lose a little more value, so I'm going to rest him for a few weeks before bringing him back with a clear direction/push. If you want to stretch Bray/Seth to SummerSlam, I considered doing Miz/Balor for the IC Title on the PPV and moving something else into the Raw main event, assuming/hoping the Miz/Ambrose stuff is completed by GBOF.

Similar for Orton, not sure where he fits/where he goes after the Jinder programme, unless you move some other parts. You could do an Orton/Ziggler programme, or Owens/Orton and move Zayn out.

AJ/Nak could be saved for Mania but I don't know if they're that kind to us. I did consider a Fatal Fourway for the US Title with Owens defending against Zayn, Styles, and Nakamura, but was trying to avoid multi-man matches.

The women probably end up the worst off, you could do a Battle Royal (mirroring the ATGMBR) at SummerSlam with all the spare parts from Raw/SDL plus girls from NXT/Mae Young tournament with the winner becoming #1 Contender to the champion in their brand (if an NXT/Tournament competitor wins they can choose which brand they land on).
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Old 06-23-2017, 07:30 AM   #36
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I had no clue there was going to be another PPV between MITB and SummerSlam. Good job, XL.
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Old 06-23-2017, 07:32 AM   #37
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I feel like the natural splittings coming out of Money in the Bank are Owens/Zayn, AJ/Dolph and Nakamura/Corbin. But they can blow that all off at Battleground. Or they can finish AJ/Owens, Zayn/Corbin and Ziggler/Nakamura. It's not like they're going to make Battleground more than an extended television show.
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Old 06-23-2017, 05:11 PM   #38
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I've got no problem with Mahal disappearing, really.
I've nothing against him right now. I actually really enjoy someone different having the reigns for a change. Now what they do with him over the next.... I dunno 90 days or so, I think will actually define his longevity.

Hard to really accept/dismiss a guy when he hasn't been given the chance to showcase any of his talents until recently. I like his in ring work so far, but the "Anti-American" gimmick is fucking stale and same same to me. If he can evolve into his own from that gimmick, he'll be around for a bit.
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Old 06-26-2017, 06:14 AM   #39
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The thing is, since Money in the Bank last year, there have been four first-time winners of the WWE Title belt. I don't really concur with the whole "new guy finally has it" sentiment. I feels like a string of new guys have been alternating with a bunch of older guys and just getting token runs. Baron Corbin is next, probably winning it from 17-time champion Cena or 15-time champion Orton.

The thing is, Mahal has been with the company for quite a few years now. I can't think of how many off the top of my head, because he hasn't really mattered. In that time, I've tried to see value in him as a performer, and I've squinted and enjoyed certain things he does, but it's a hard case to make for him to be anything other than a lower-card act. He's easily one of the bottom ten on the roster, and it's frustrating as a wrestling fan to see someone about as shallow in the talent department as Brutus "The Barber" Beefcake inserted into such a central role.

I'm happy the dude turned his life around, and it is important to have representation on your roster. He seems to want to be there and works hard to keep his place. That's about as good as it gets with him though. The most useful thing he could do is comedy with 3MB. With The New Day around, it could actually get some lower-card focus heading into a show, even one like WrestleMania, and actually not feel out of place. What does anyone really envision for this guy come WrestleMania season? I think, at best, he's in a Fatal 4-Way Tag Title or in the Andre Battle Royal. Maybe him and the Singhs are feuding with New Day come then and because of The New Day's merch and Mahal apparently appealing to a demographic they want (although I don't think numbers have reflected this yet), they might end up main card.

At this point, I wonder if they do a War Games match were the first-time heel champs over the past year face the first-time babyface champs. You can do Corbin, Wyatt, Mahal and...fuck it, count Owens in there, against Styles, Ambrose, Balor and a few others who could come between now and then.

It's just a bit "throw everything at the wall" to me.
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