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Old 12-17-2016, 02:29 PM   #1
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Did Vince help or hurt the wrestling industry?
By popular demand

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Originally Posted by Mondo Gecko View Post

He's like aw shit!
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Old 12-17-2016, 02:36 PM   #2
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I guess I'll start.

Before Vince assumed control of the industry there wrestlers from one end of the country to the other making a living off it. Full time wrestlers buying homes and supporting families. Now either you work for him or you live off a couple hundred a night if you are exceptional/work the gimmick stand. The ones who do well do better than the ones of yesteryear but the gap between success and starvation is vast and there is no "middle class."

There is no industry now. There is one promotion.

Vince killing kayfabein federal court is a topic worth discussing as well.
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Old 12-17-2016, 03:05 PM   #3
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If Vince didn't do it, somebody else would. The Territories were terribly run by the mid 80's. The decisions made by Fritz, Verne etc were laughable.
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Old 12-17-2016, 03:25 PM   #4
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Let's not forget the reality of how damaging it's been to the industry as a whole since he bought wcw. I'm aware they had financial issues and someone was going to buy them but he killed his competition and then kinda pooped all over their legacy and their fans with the awful invasion. Ratings have been going down ever since.
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Old 12-17-2016, 04:00 PM   #5
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WCW had no T.V. It was pretty much worthless to anyone other than Vince.
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Old 12-17-2016, 04:08 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bad News Gertner View Post
If Vince didn't do it, somebody else would. The Territories were terribly run by the mid 80's. The decisions made by Fritz, Verne etc were laughable.
Moot argument. The question is did it help or hurt the industry not if it was or was not inevitable.

A territory could have died and been revived by someone else. As is there is nothing beyond 100 or so jobs in the business now.
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Old 12-17-2016, 04:17 PM   #7
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Moot argument. The question is did it help or hurt the industry not if it was or was not inevitable.
Glad I'm not the only one that noticed this.
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Old 12-17-2016, 05:12 PM   #8
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Considering Pro Wrestling pretty much reached it's ceiling 15 years ago. I think he obviously helped. Keeping the product relevant since then has been outstanding.
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Old 12-17-2016, 05:56 PM   #9
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He turned it from regional garbage to a global phenomenon
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Old 12-17-2016, 05:58 PM   #10
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A mix of both overall. For every great thing he did, something else took a bit hit either in the short or long term.

WWF's rise and Hulkamania becoming huge in the mainstream came at the cost of the old territory system. WWF's victory over WCW came at the cost of the gradual mainstream decline in the industry. Even stuff like NXT is a mixed bag since he gave Triple H all the resources needed for it to be successful but at the same time is the biggest obstacle when it comes to transitioning those gains to the next level on the main roster.
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Old 12-18-2016, 12:01 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smelly Meatball View Post
A mix of both overall. For every great thing he did, something else took a bit hit either in the short or long term.

WWF's rise and Hulkamania becoming huge in the mainstream came at the cost of the old territory system. WWF's victory over WCW came at the cost of the gradual mainstream decline in the industry. Even stuff like NXT is a mixed bag since he gave Triple H all the resources needed for it to be successful but at the same time is the biggest obstacle when it comes to transitioning those gains to the next level on the main roster.
The non WWE territories went out of business because they were terrible and were minor league. Any other territory could have done what Vince did. The difference was he was way better at it.

The business was declining off its ratings peak before WCW went out of business. It's never been more successful from a business standpoint than it is now. That's thanks to Vince.

Anyone who draws a pay in wrestling in North America is doing so because of Vince.
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Old 12-18-2016, 12:04 AM   #12
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Vince fixed a broken system
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Old 12-18-2016, 12:06 AM   #13
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Only to become the broken system with enough money for the "broken system" that he's become/created, not to matter.
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Old 12-18-2016, 12:15 AM   #14
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Yeah but a broken system without ties to organized crime. So, it's better. So, hooray?
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Old 12-18-2016, 12:24 AM   #15
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Everyone is citing the WWEs success and calling it the industry. There is no industry now, there is only one promotion.
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Old 12-18-2016, 12:27 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The CyNick View Post
The business was declining off its ratings peak before WCW went out of business. It's never been more successful from a business standpoint than it is now. That's thanks to Vince.
Yeah business is soo great right now for the WWE that they suddenly need around $200 million to cover their current debts based on recent financial reports.

Network itself still hasn't come close to doing the financial things the WWE was expecting by now and even has declined a bit in terms of overall performance. Even so, it was only ever meant to replace their tv and ppv revenues which it still hasn't managed to get close to doing so.
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Old 12-18-2016, 12:58 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smelly Meatball View Post
Yeah business is soo great right now for the WWE that they suddenly need around $200 million to cover their current debts based on recent financial reports.

Network itself still hasn't come close to doing the financial things the WWE was expecting by now and even has declined a bit in terms of overall performance. Even so, it was only ever meant to replace their tv and ppv revenues which it still hasn't managed to get close to doing so.
Shhh... don't cite facts as evidence. Cynick, et al., will tell you "you don't know anything / what you're talking about" and that "you're just wrong, everything's great". Except for when things were better, like April 18, 2008, April 23, 2010, February 2, 2001, January 15, 2001 - January 30, 2001, June, 25, 2000 - September 23, 2000, October 24, 1999 - November, 23, 1999.
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Old 12-18-2016, 02:13 AM   #18
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Vince did to wrestling what big business has done to the U.S. as a whole. He made the top guys richer and gave them the ability to become bigger stars than they ever could have before. However, he also killed the industry as a whole and made it impossible for the vast majority of wrestlers to make a living at it.
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Old 12-18-2016, 03:51 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smelly Meatball View Post
Yeah business is soo great right now for the WWE that they suddenly need around $200 million to cover their current debts based on recent financial reports.

Network itself still hasn't come close to doing the financial things the WWE was expecting by now and even has declined a bit in terms of overall performance. Even so, it was only ever meant to replace their tv and ppv revenues which it still hasn't managed to get close to doing so.
Don't take the Cynick bait, he's just gonna say you're believing everything Meltzer says or something like that
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Old 12-18-2016, 10:36 AM   #20
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Don't take the Cynick bait
Seriously, guys...
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Old 12-18-2016, 10:37 AM   #21
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Del Rio joining Sheamus, Barrett, and Rusev would be a good group.
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Not Euro enough. Then it becomes an anti American group.
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Why does it not being completely European make it anti-American?
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Well what do they have in common then?
Ask yourself if this is a guy you wanna try to have a discussion with.
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Old 12-18-2016, 10:44 AM   #22
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So what I'm reading is that Vince helped "WWE / the promotion" at the expense of "the industry".

Without WWE being the big dog in the yard, the "industry" as a whole would have floundered long ago. WWE kept pro wrestling relevant. Could you imagine in today's cultural landscape (if WWE ceased to exist) how well a glorified carnival act would go over with millennials? I don't think Dusty Rhodes could compete with Steph Curry on a bang-for-bucks ratio
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Old 12-18-2016, 10:51 AM   #23
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Old 12-18-2016, 10:59 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by road doggy dogg View Post
So what I'm reading is that Vince helped "WWE / the promotion" at the expense of "the industry".

Without WWE being the big dog in the yard, the "industry" as a whole would have floundered long ago. WWE kept pro wrestling relevant. Could you imagine in today's cultural landscape (if WWE ceased to exist) how well a glorified carnival act would go over with millennials? I don't think Dusty Rhodes could compete with Steph Curry on a bang-for-bucks ratio
Pure speculation. And one that works off the assumption that wrestling cant adapt with the times without vince, as if the product hadnt adapted and changed before he even got into the industry. It would have been different but there is no evidence to suggest it wouldn't have.

No one has yet to name an example of how the industry is better post vince outside of his company.
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Old 12-18-2016, 11:05 AM   #25
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Well, it will always be speculative when talking in hypotheticals. Without Vince/WWE, would Turner have bought WCW to compete? Would they ever have moved on past the "territory" style of promotions?

Without WWE providing a constant mainstream presence, interest in the industry as a whole would not have been near where it is. I can't imagine there would be any worldwide interest in American football, for example, without an NFL.
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Old 12-18-2016, 11:09 AM   #26
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We arent talking hypotheticals here. We have a reality prior to vince and a reality post vince. In what way is the industry better off outside of the WWF?
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Old 12-18-2016, 11:11 AM   #27
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I can only speak for myself in saying that I would literally have no interest in pro wrestling without Vince's involvement. Hell I probably wouldn't even know it existed.
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Old 12-18-2016, 11:14 AM   #28
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To me this is simple. You take an industry that had, i dunno lets go conservative here, 1000 jobs across the country and replace it with 100 jobs you have not improved industry. If you had 15 successful businesses and replaced it with 1.

Walmart was not good for the supermarket industry. It was good for walmart.

And thats not me saying walmart was a failure theres just a diference between the two things.
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Old 12-18-2016, 11:24 AM   #29
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WWE has created 1000s of jobs, though.

Granted, those aren't all wrestling jobs. It takes a lot of people to run a company of that size, though. Whereas a territory could be run/managed by a handful of people, WWE is a powerhouse corporate conglomerate with tons of jobs created.

A lot more people are probably making $ and supporting their families due to the state of the industry today. Just maybe less rasslers.
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Old 12-18-2016, 11:25 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Destor View Post
To me this is simple. You take an industry that had, i dunno lets go conservative here, 1000 jobs across the country and replace it with 100 jobs you have not improved industry. If you had 15 successful businesses and replaced it with 1.

Walmart was not good for the supermarket industry. It was good for walmart.

And thats not me saying walmart was a failure theres just a diference between the two things.
Not only that, but I think what Vince has done since buying WCW has definitely hurt the business. WWE's popularity has been on a steady decline and with it, since it's synonymous with wrestling, has gone the business itself. WCW thrived because Vince made wrestling a mainstream juggernaut and WCW took advantage of that. Even if TNA were actually producing a strong product over the past 15 years though they wouldn't stand much of a chance because the industry is not the draw it was. And that's also because of Vince.

So I'm kind of in between. I think he helped it and then hurt it.
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Old 12-18-2016, 11:27 AM   #31
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Theres no maybe to the rasslers. The jobs it "created" were entertainment jobs. Jobs that people from television filled. So i guess he had a positive impact on the tv industry?
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Old 12-18-2016, 11:30 AM   #32
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Furthermore think of the workers he employs. What is their future like post wwe? Most die in trailer parks and its not because of poor money management. The average worker bring in 55k before travel for...5 years? And after that they have no industry to go to.
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Old 12-19-2016, 12:41 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan View Post
Not only that, but I think what Vince has done since buying WCW has definitely hurt the business. WWE's popularity has been on a steady decline and with it, since it's synonymous with wrestling, has gone the business itself. WCW thrived because Vince made wrestling a mainstream juggernaut and WCW took advantage of that. Even if TNA were actually producing a strong product over the past 15 years though they wouldn't stand much of a chance because the industry is not the draw it was. And that's also because of Vince.

So I'm kind of in between. I think he helped it and then hurt it.


Agreed. Seems like you almost always say exactly what I'm thinking.
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Old 12-19-2016, 02:30 AM   #34
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Old 12-19-2016, 10:04 AM   #35
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Old 12-19-2016, 10:41 AM   #36
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Quote:
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Theres no maybe to the rasslers. The jobs it "created" were entertainment jobs. Jobs that people from television filled. So i guess he had a positive impact on the tv industry?
How is this a bad thing, exactly? Should wrestling not be televised? Is that your gripe?
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Old 12-19-2016, 10:41 AM   #37
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Furthermore think of the workers he employs. What is their future like post wwe? Most die in trailer parks and its not because of poor money management. The average worker bring in 55k before travel for...5 years? And after that they have no industry to go to.
How glamorous were pre-WWE wrestlers' post-wrestling lives? (not snarky, legit question because I know 0 about anything related to the lifestyle of wrestlers)
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Old 12-19-2016, 11:11 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by road doggy dogg View Post
How is this a bad thing, exactly? Should wrestling not be televised? Is that your gripe?
No? If you want to credit Vince for creating jobs for sales reps, marketers, TV crews, etc thats all valid. Those are positions that benifit from the industry but arent OF the industry. If the WWF up and died those people would find work elsewhere inside their industry. But if you want to credit him as a job creater for those that would be fair. The net jobs gained v jobs lost still wouldnt favor the WWF but whatever.

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Originally Posted by road doggy dogg View Post
How glamorous were pre-WWE wrestlers' post-wrestling lives? (not snarky, legit question because I know 0 about anything related to the lifestyle of wrestlers)
They could support families off of them. Buying homes and cars. Middle class. Full time wrestler was a viable profesion. Wahoo McDaniel quit the NFL because wrestling paid better.


Job guys would make a killing but they had to travel a lot more.


Glamor? I dont think the Middle Class could be described as that.
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Old 12-19-2016, 11:53 AM   #39
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I think wrestling would have died 1-2 decades ago if it wasn't for Vince. If you think, it is probably the silliest thing on TV and without Vince making it relevant I don't think it would have continued anywhere near what it is. Maybe it would still be a travelling carny show at best.
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Old 12-19-2016, 11:57 AM   #40
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I think wrestling would have died 1-2 decades ago if it wasn't for Vince. If you think, it is probably the silliest thing on TV and without Vince making it relevant I don't think it would have continued anywhere near what it is. Maybe it would still be a travelling carny show at best.
Rediculous. He didnt invent the business. It exists globally with out him. This is propagandized mindset. Something about wrestling works. And has worked for over a century. This notion that only Vince can run a succesful company is just silly.
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