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Old 07-12-2015, 07:27 PM   #881
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Old 07-12-2015, 08:07 PM   #882
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Originally Posted by Wishbone View Post
The CGI was pretty bad in my opinion, and that took me out of it a lot.

I also don't like a lot of the story implications that seem to be hinted at in the trailer. Batman seems waaaay too dark here. I'm a fan of a darker Batman like what we're currently getting in the comics, but I'm not a fan of the full on 80's "I'm edgy as fuck" Batman that they seem to be going for here.

There's too much revenge motivation going on, and that just isn't Batman to me. This Batman seems even more angsty and pissed off than the Dark Knight Returns Batman that he's based on. I mean it looked like he flat out branded a dude with the Bat-symbol at one point in the trailer. And then we had the original trailer with the "Do you bleed?" line which is completely out of character.

Then we have the problem with Man of Steel Superman being in it, and I absolute hate everything about that version of Superman. He's out of character as hell. He's too emo, and he's smaller than Batman in this which is ridiculous IMHO. Also the line from his mother, "Be their hero, or don't. You don't owe this planet anything" was just awful. That is completely out of character for the Kents. The whole reason Superman is a hero is because his parents raised him to believe that he is obligated to help people thanks to his amazing gifts, yet this version of the Kents has told him to hide his powers, possibly let a school bus of kids die just to hide his powers, and now tells him that if he wants he should just tell the world "fuck you" and walk away. It's like this isn't even Superman anymore.

And Wonder Woman... Oh god Wonder Woman... Physically she's completely wrong for the part. She's a god damn twig. And even if you get past the awful casting there's bound to be story problems. I mean, sure, we don't actually know anything about her yet from just the trailers, but if they couldn't even get Batman and Superman right then I honestly have no faith in them getting Wonder Woman right.

Finally I just hate how much of a cluster fuck this movies turning out to be. They're doing the second movie in their universe and they're already pulling the "Avengers card". It's too soon to be cramming this much into one movie. We're getting characters we've never seen before just popping up. There's no way they can fit character development for all of them into one movie, even if it's three hours. This should have been Batman vs Superman only. Having the others is just stupid. And now it looks like we may even see more than one villain. They're setting themselves up for disaster here.

Anyway those are just my thoughts. Sorry for the ranty essay style post. If you actually read the whole thing thanks! lol
I read it. And for the most part I very much see where you're coming from and you make a compelling argument. Truth be told I'm not really up on Superman's character and I haven't read anything on him, so as far as Snyder's interpretation, I'm open to it, though I wasn't a fan of MoS.

In terms of Batman, I'm not so tied to the comics that I can't accept or be open to a different take. Really, the only thing I really care about is if the movie is good.

I think your comment about over stuffing the movie with characters is spot fucking on, btw. That's my biggest concern to this point.
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Old 07-12-2015, 08:19 PM   #883
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I had no idea Flash was supposed to be in this.
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Old 07-12-2015, 08:37 PM   #884
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Originally Posted by Damian Rey View Post
I read it. And for the most part I very much see where you're coming from and you make a compelling argument. Truth be told I'm not really up on Superman's character and I haven't read anything on him, so as far as Snyder's interpretation, I'm open to it, though I wasn't a fan of MoS.

In terms of Batman, I'm not so tied to the comics that I can't accept or be open to a different take. Really, the only thing I really care about is if the movie is good.

I think your comment about over stuffing the movie with characters is spot fucking on, btw. That's my biggest concern to this point.
Yeah, I think the general public will be fine with the changes, and I fully expect this movie to do extremely well at the box office. It's just not for me. I know the Batman and Superman I both grew up with and like seeing today, and these aren't them. I'll probably pick the movie up when it becomes available for rental, or maybe at the dollar theater. Not something I'd spend 12 bucks on a ticket and another 20 on snacks for though.

As for the "too many characters" thing, well, I think it just boils down to greed and no real appreciation for the characters or where they come from. Warner Brothers is just looking for a quick buck by replicating what Marvel did as quickly as possible. With Marvel you can see that the people involved are having fun, and that they often have love or at the very least respect for the source material. With Warner Brothers though,
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Old 07-12-2015, 08:46 PM   #885
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Agreed. Wish they'd take their time but they drug their asses for so long they're know in a corner where Marvel is making heaps of money and all they've managed in that time is MoS. They could've easily released two other movies establishing their universe started in MoS instead of waiting for this film to do it.

Oh well. Like I said,I'm open to giving it a shot. Bringing in a decent writer to rewrite David Goyer's script was a good sign, and I've enjoyed pretty much everything they've released to this point. I'm just hoping it's a decent film.
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Old 07-12-2015, 08:49 PM   #886
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Originally Posted by Kalyx triaD View Post
"Batman is way too dark here."
Batman is not the Punisher. He's not Wolverine. Branding people with Bat-symbols and acting like a "badass" by threatening a literal god face to face with "You will bleed" is not Batman. Let me guess, you probably think Dark Knight Returns is one of the best Batman stories ever, and think Nolan's films are the greatest comic book movies of all time, right? Batman's villains are best when they're totally dark and twisted, yes, but Batman himself is best when he refuses to stoop to their level and beats them anyway. Batman doesn't kill or even aim to maim someone for life unless it's absolutely necessary. Hell, he's the guy that would put a psycho like the Joker in a mental institute for help rather than killing him and "avenging" the hundred's he's killed.
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Old 07-12-2015, 08:54 PM   #887
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Batman murdered hundreds back when he was goofy, not gritty, in the 50s or so. Hell, he murdered Joker in the very first issue Joker showed up. They just brought him back, cause they decided he'd make for a good recurring villain.
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Old 07-12-2015, 08:59 PM   #888
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Agreed. Wish they'd take their time but they drug their asses for so long they're know in a corner where Marvel is making heaps of money and all they've managed in that time is MoS. They could've easily released two other movies establishing their universe started in MoS instead of waiting for this film to do it.

Oh well. Like I said,I'm open to giving it a shot. Bringing in a decent writer to rewrite David Goyer's script was a good sign, and I've enjoyed pretty much everything they've released to this point. I'm just hoping it's a decent film.
If this one proves me wrong and turns out to be a great movie I'll definitely give DC another chance. In fact I pray I'm wrong because I personally love DC's characters and universe.

It'd be so great if this and Suicide Squad blew away my expectations. If they do then maybe we might get to see more of Harley Quinn, and maybe even a Red Hood movie down the line. Oh, and I'd kill for an actually decent Hellblazer movie.
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Old 07-12-2015, 09:06 PM   #889
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Batman murdered hundreds back when he was goofy, not gritty, in the 50s or so. Hell, he murdered Joker in the very first issue Joker showed up. They just brought him back, cause they decided he'd make for a good recurring villain.
The very first issue the Joker appeared in was during the golden age. Long before Batman became "goofy". In fact Joker's first appearance had him as a very dark character that murdered people.

It wasn't until the silver age that we got the campy Batman stuff, and that was decades later. It's also worth noting that the golden age isn't even connected to the current continuity, or even the continuity any of us on this forum could have grown up with (seeing as it was back in the 30's and 40's).

During that time Batman killed plenty of people. He also fought Nazis, as did Superman. None of that is canon to the characters anymore. In fact DC even went so far as to establish the golden age as a completely different universe during the silver age effectively making golden age Batman a completely different character than the one we know.
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Old 07-12-2015, 09:08 PM   #890
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Huh. The more you know I guess.

The panels I read made him look goofy. Then again I'm not big on DC, so what do I know?
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Old 07-12-2015, 09:10 PM   #891
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Branding people with Bat-symbols and acting like a "badass" by threatening a literal god face to face with "You will bleed" is not Batman.
lol That is totally Batman. It doesn't matter if he could make a god bleed, it's very concept of the gesture. Be it Superman or Darksied or Thanos himself; they have to wonder, "Wow, who does this guy think he is?"

He's the God Damned Batman. he gets in your head. He makes you wonder. That's the point. He once got Darkseid to relinquish control of Supergirl on a hilariously risky bluff. Was Bruce going to actually destroy Apokalypes for Supergirl? We'll never know. But the Dark One didn't wanna see if the crazy guy in a batsuit was serious. That's Batman.

And the branding thing? I'm gonna assume Bruce's rationale was, "He'll live." In fact he's lucky he didn't break the other one. "The other wha-"

*SNAP*

That's Batman.

Quote:
Let me guess, you probably think Dark Knight Returns is one of the best Batman stories ever, and think Nolan's films are the greatest comic book movies of all time, right?
No to both. And like so many others who ask loaded questions the next few lines work off the false premise, right?

Quote:
Batman's villains are best when they're totally dark and twisted, yes, but Batman himself is best when he refuses to stoop to their level and beats them anyway.
You are LUCKY if Batman's rogues gallery leaves you with a burn and verbal threats. Batflek has done nothing seen so far that stoops to their level. What are you on about?

Quote:
Batman doesn't kill or even aim to maim someone for life unless it's absolutely necessary.
He's killed nobody in this trailer. Batkeaton took a few lives and Batbale invoked a ridiculous loophole on Ras, but Batflek has shown no sign of this. In fact we see him narrowly dodge a full blown heat vision kill shot from Supes.

Quote:
Hell, he's the guy that would put a psycho like the Joker in a mental institute for help rather than killing him and "avenging" the hundred's he's killed.
What are you talking about? Obviously Batflek put Joker away at some point rather than kill him, even after the apparent death of a Robin. Is there some footage of a killing machine Batflek that we haven't seen yet?
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Old 07-12-2015, 09:13 PM   #892
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Huh. The more you know I guess.

The panels I read made him look goofy. Then again I'm not big on DC, so what do I know?
Yeah, golden age comics looked goofy as hell even when they tried to be serious. There's a panel I saw a while back where a dude is dying in agony and the whole thing looks funny as hell.
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Old 07-12-2015, 09:24 PM   #893
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In response to Kalyx, I never said that Batflek killed anyone. You just keep making it sound like he should be cold blooded and dark enough to do it, which he shouldn't.

As for the other movie Batman's, yes, they did do all that, and I dislike them for it. I was never a big fan of the 90's Batman movies. Even the first one was just "alright" IMO. And Nolan's films were barely Batman movies at all. Sure they were good films, but you could easily have taken out anything Batman related and just made it a generic vigilante storyline without losing anything.

You also quote the Arkham games here which I feel the same way about as the Nolan films. They're fun games, but they're really not as great as everyone makes them out to be. They always try way too hard to seem dark and gritty to the point it feels completely forced. Hell, I've never even played one to completion cause I just lose interest.

Outside animation I don't think anyone's ever gotten Batman right truthfully, but honestly I think that goes for most of DC's stuff. Their universe and style just lends itself better to comics and animation than it does to live action.
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Old 07-12-2015, 09:34 PM   #894
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In response to Kalyx, I never said that Batflek killed anyone. You just keep making it sound like he should be cold blooded and dark enough to do it, which he shouldn't.
lol wut?

Sorry if I sound like that but trust that I believe The Batman should not kill people.

Quote:
And Nolan's films were barely Batman movies at all. Sure they were good films, but you could easily have taken out anything Batman related and just made it a generic vigilante storyline without losing anything.
True. Very few people recognize that they were good films rather than especially good Batman films. The Nolan trilogy, particularly TDK, are arguably better 'films', but the MCU has a ton of better 'superhero movies'. Glad you noticed that, really.

Quote:
You also quote the Arkham games here which I feel the same way about as the Nolan films. They're fun games, but they're really not as great as everyone makes them out to be. They always try way too hard to seem dark and gritty to the point it feels completely forced. Hell, I've never even played one to completion cause I just lose interest.
I agree partly on the try-hard nature of the violence and themes, but you're gonna have a hard time finding a better superhero game. Few games merge the core of the hero with gameplay.

Quote:
Outside animation I don't think anyone's ever gotten Batman right truthfully, but honestly I think that goes for most of DC's stuff. Their universe and style just lends itself better to comics and animation than it does to live action.
No reason not to go for it. The DC movies could lighten up a bit. Scarcrow's first dialogue with Batman in 'Begins can be attributed to the entire DCCU.
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Old 07-12-2015, 09:42 PM   #895
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Old 07-12-2015, 09:44 PM   #896
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Yeah, I'd like to see DC lighten up a little. At least with Superman. They're trying way to hard to be dark and it's getting annoying. There's a time and place for everything, and a Superman movie is not the place for it. I have no problem with all the action in MoS like many do. In fact I loved that part of the movie. What I didn't like was all the inner turmoil drama they shoehorned in. It's Superman vs Zod for Christ's sake lol. If Superman were fighting a less powerful villain, sure, I'd buy them needed more inner demon stuff to make it seem like Superman was in trouble, but when you've got what is essentially "evil Superman" you don't need that. The movie would have been far better if it was just about Superman trying to save the day.

And, yeah, I'll agree that there aren't many better Superhero games out there than the Arkham games. They're definitely fun games to play. I just don't feel like they capture the essence of Batman is all. In fact I'd argue that the only Superhero game that I thought was better was probably Spider-Man 2. That game was the shit. I also rather liked Hulk: Ultimate Destruction. But, yeah, outside those there aren't many good Superhero games honestly.
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Old 07-12-2015, 09:48 PM   #897
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Spider-Man 2 is the greatest superhero game ever made and I hate Activision for not even attempting to evolve what they had there.

Amazing Spider-Man 2 emulated the core gameplay but by then it just feels archaic and derivative. Just imagine Spider-Man 2 evolving the way GTA evolved. It probably would have become a Marvel Universe thing.
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Old 07-12-2015, 10:15 PM   #898
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Spider-Man 2 is the greatest superhero game ever made and I hate Activision for not even attempting to evolve what they had there.

Amazing Spider-Man 2 emulated the core gameplay but by then it just feels archaic and derivative. Just imagine Spider-Man 2 evolving the way GTA evolved. It probably would have become a Marvel Universe thing.
Dude, that would have been the greatest thing in the history of ever.
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Old 07-12-2015, 10:34 PM   #899
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See, I disagree with the idea that the Nolan films aren't good Batman films. I don't think taking away Batman and putting some other character in there would still make the movies work. They were great films about how Nolan perceived the idea of Batman, and great films overall.

I guess this is where I differ from some comic fans. I appreciate a serious, character driven approach to Superman and initially liked the idea of how he came to be. MoS dropped the ball ultimately, but I'm always more interested in the characters themselves than what they're actually doing.

And like I've said before, I'm not tied to the comics to that extent. To me, if the film is good, if the characters are well developed and represented respectfully, even if the creative team took some liberties or tried to delve into the characters by going in a different direction, than I'm all for it.

That's partly why I'm some what burned out on Marvel. Feel like all their movies look, sound and are shot the same way. Just thinking about them now, there's no discernable difference in how I remember the look and feel of one movie to the other.

With Nolan, his films are completely different than any comic film before or after. They have an immediate,recognizable look and feel. Even MoS is different in that way. I know DC has been knocked before about being "too dark", but I do not see any connection in how Nolan produced his films and how MoS and now Dawn of Justice are being shot. You see Zack Snyder, for better or for worse, written all over this movie. Feels like you could just let the director go uncredited in the Marvel films, or credit the same guy for every one, and it would go unnoticed.

I applaud that DC is trying to separate itself and its properties from Marvel by being completely different. Whether or not it's going to work has yet to be seen. But I'm happy too see it play out.

End random all over the place Noid post.
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Old 07-12-2015, 10:41 PM   #900
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The key takeaway here is you're arguing from a casual perspective, while me and Wish are arguing from the comic fans' perspective. I personally believe Marvel's approach is more tonally honest, and shows more respect to the fanbase that supported these characters. The movies are already 'nerfed' for the mainstream by default, so when something like Spidey 2 and Avengers comes along jumping out of the page we lean toward those.

I love the Nolan trilogy but the tone really isn't for every hero (especially big blue). Don't force a dichotomy between MCU's tone and characterization. Tony Stark as of Iron Man 3 is every bit as compelling as Batbale.
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Old 07-12-2015, 10:58 PM   #901
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Except the catch is I love the comics and I understand where you guys are coming from. I'm not some casual Batman guy. I absolutely love the character, and felt, as a fan of that character, from the books, that Nolan hit it out of the park as much as one could while being completely creative with it. I agree the Superman should be different in terms of his development but he can be serious but might hearted at the same time. Doesn't have to be either or. Maybe they make that a point in this film. Maybe Clark is now a more content, light hearted hero where Bruce is the darker side of life.

And no, Stark is nowhere near as compelling from a character arc standpoint. There's no loss or consequence for him or his actions. His weapons are sold to bad guys. He stops that. His idea is hijacked by bad guys. Be stops that. A guy be left hanging seeks revenge and tries to punish Pepper only to have Pepper be his demise, and Tony goes on happily ever after without any real loss or consequence to anything he did. They're not the same.

And they don't have to be. When Iron Man and Marvel in general started their run, I was all for it. It was different, it was new, the characters were new and refreshing. Then 2015 happened and it's just not the same. Every movie, imo, looks the same. Feels the same. Sounds the same. They, for the most part, lack compelling, convincing villains. And Marvel has made it a point to do this. And that's all fine and dandy. I don't think there's a right or wrong way to do these films and I don't think DC is better for being dark or Marvel is better for consistent and trying to fit everything in their expanded universe.

In fact,Marvel deserves a lot of praise for building what they have seemingly out of nowhere to start and for consistently producing quality movies pretty much year long without hitting one stinker. Their "worst" film might've been Hulk and that's not a bad movie. I'm just feeling burned on them because they've literally dominated the cinemas and at this point my pallet would like something a little different. That still doesn't mean that either one is better than the other.
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Old 07-12-2015, 11:06 PM   #902
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Quote:
And no, Stark is nowhere near as compelling from a character arc standpoint. There's no loss or consequence for him or his actions. His weapons are sold to bad guys. He stops that. His idea is hijacked by bad guys. Be stops that. A guy be left hanging seeks revenge and tries to punish Pepper only to have Pepper be his demise, and Tony goes on happily ever after without any real loss or consequence to anything he did. They're not the same.
Here's the flaw in simplifying a story to dismiss an argument:

"So like, his parent get killed like millions of other orphans but he's special so he becomes some vigilante. He has money to make a suit and weapons and a cool car. He beats up crazy people but he doesn't kill, except he let's his mentor die for reasons. Then a clown comes along and ruins any chance of a social life and he retires. Then a terrorists comes along and he comes out of retirement. He gets thrown in a hole, he climbs out, beats the other guy. Fakes his death and gives his stuff to a cop. Eh."

You see, it's disingenuous to the narrative and can be done to literally anything. I can present the best movies ever in such a fashion.
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Old 07-12-2015, 11:18 PM   #903
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I agree you can. Which is why I outlined why. Like I said, there's no consequence for Stark for any of his actions, nor is there any real feeling of loss. He never hit rock bottom and at the end of the day nothing changes for him outside initial development into Iron Man. In the first one, yes, very compelling in par with, to an extent, what we see in Begins. And even then, it wasn't the same.

It's not knock on the character. Marvel could've gone a similar route buy they chose not to and it really didn't matter at the end of day because the films are still solid and the character is still popular.
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Old 07-12-2015, 11:31 PM   #904
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When you're telling a series of stories (the MCU is a movie series) you simply do not have the freedom to make the kind of consequences you would with a standalone trilogy. It would be like killing Mulder in X-Files eps. 7.
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Old 07-12-2015, 11:34 PM   #905
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Also, there's been growth with the MCU characters, but more in the sense of a serialized show (again like X-Files). Stark in 'season one' is not the Stark of 'season two'.
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Old 07-12-2015, 11:45 PM   #906
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That is true and that's what I meant by going a different direction. Nonetheless, there could still be dire and permanent consequences to Stark but there isn't. And again, nothing wrong with that. It's not like the movies are boring or shit. They're still good. They're just not driven in that sense. Marvel has built their universe in a way completely different and identifiable from D.C., which is great.

Let's get back to the topic, damn it. Wishbone mentioned this seemingly viscous, vile characterizing of Batman. Am I correct I remembering Batman being written to be more mean and menacing after Jason Todd's death, so much to a point that Tim Drake felt Batman needed the balance having a Robin provided? Todd was blown up when I was like, 5 maybe. No way I would've been old to enough or have the means to follow the stories like I do now.
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Old 07-12-2015, 11:48 PM   #907
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All I hope is that we see at least some of Clark Kent doing the whole secret identity thing. Was an element that Zack Snyder just didn't touch, and part of me thinks this whole thing with putting all these other people into the Superman sequel is just so he can continue to not put any effort into/ignore Superman's secret identity.
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Old 07-12-2015, 11:59 PM   #908
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Well Clark does seem intent on investigating the Batman and is scolded by Perry White, so maybe we're in luck. Still hate that Lois already knows who he is. Ruins the whole fucking dynamic of their relationship. They could've saved her finding out for some epic moment, like dying. Instead they just blew it an hour into MoS.
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Old 07-13-2015, 12:02 AM   #909
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Henry Cavill pretty much stated outright that this is more Justice League/Wonder Woman/The Batman prequel than a Superman sequel.

It does seem that we'll see some Clark. He seems to have beef with his boss over a Batman hitpiece, which is kinda hilarious.
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Old 07-13-2015, 12:26 AM   #910
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It's funny to me that, in the trailer, that scene is all epic and dramatic but when we actually see it, it probably won't be anywhere near that heavy.
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Old 07-13-2015, 10:08 PM   #911
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Agree with wishbone on the branding. Not really batman's style. But the "Do you bleed comment?" is typical Batman bluster that he's had for years.

Doesn't bother me either way, because I'm open to Zack Snyder's interpretations of these characters. We've already seen movies of these characters taken directly from the comics. I'm ready for something different this time, which is why I guess I enjoyed Man of Steel more than most people.

I basically look at these movies like Elseworlds tales.
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Old 07-13-2015, 10:15 PM   #912
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fignuts View Post
Agree with wishbone on the branding. Not really batman's style. But the "Do you bleed comment?" is typical Batman bluster that he's had for years.

Doesn't bother me either way, because I'm open to Zack Snyder's interpretations of these characters. We've already seen movies of these characters taken directly from the comics. I'm ready for something different this time, which is why I guess I enjoyed Man of Steel more than most people.

I basically look at these movies like Elseworlds tales.
True, in retrospect I may have exaggerated on the "Do you bleed" line. That one is pretty Batmanish. I think the other stuff just got to me to the point I was reaching for other things to add to my rant lol.

Regardless I can't get behind these movies. Too much wrong, and too much that I just don't like. I suppose that's the beauty of movies though. If you don't want to have to watch it you don't have to buy a ticket.

I'm just gonna pretend this period in DC's history never happened. Maybe if I Bo-lieve hard enough it'll come true, or at the very least I'll just go into denial and think in 10 years when they reboot again that we just got out of a massive DC drought or something.
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Old 07-14-2015, 09:18 AM   #913
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I thought it was odd when you included that line in your reasoning. Feels like it's spot on. We shall see. I hope it's good, because DC needs it to be. MoS was not as good as any Marvel film except maybe the recent Hulk, and going all in on a universe of mediocre or worse movies isn't gonna do them any good.
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Old 07-14-2015, 12:30 PM   #914
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Official Desert Storm Batman photo released.

Also, there were rumors stating that Affleck and Geoff Johns had signed on to co write a new Batman script that's already near finished with Affleck starring and directing.
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Old 07-14-2015, 03:33 PM   #915
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That's no rumor. It's happening.
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Old 07-14-2015, 03:44 PM   #916
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Well excuse me. What's the feeling on Johns as a writer?
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Old 07-14-2015, 04:41 PM   #917
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Johns has a good handling of getting superheroes to work in other media. His name is attached to good shit and some of the best Smallville events. But for me, the big takeaway is Affleck co-writing and directing. I was on board the second he was announced because I knew we were dealing with a guy who knows his shit, rather than the crash-course most actors need when they take a role. He's as good a draft as Ryan Reynolds is for Deadpool. Or RDJ for Stark. It makes sense the more you think about it.
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Old 07-14-2015, 08:21 PM   #918
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I can't trust "Zack Snyder".
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Old 07-14-2015, 08:23 PM   #919
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He's alright.
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Old 07-14-2015, 09:38 PM   #920
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Barely. He's never had one consensus, great film. Just a few mediocre efforts with some duds sprinkled in.
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