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Old 06-06-2013, 09:21 AM   #281
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yup. And the complaint about the finisher thing was a bit ridiculous as well until Jabba spoke up. And the Sheamus White Noise/setup stuff, dunno, it's like you go out of your way to make some daft complaints about certain individuals despite a lot of these things being standard practices in televised pro wrestling in it's current form/style for decades.
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Old 06-06-2013, 09:24 AM   #282
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CSL View Post
yup. And the complaint about the finisher thing was a bit ridiculous as well until Jabba spoke up. And the Sheamus White Noise/setup stuff, dunno, it's like you go out of your way to make some daft complaints about certain individuals despite a lot of these things being standard practices in televised pro wrestling in it's current form/style for decades.
I wasn't complaining strictly about Sheamus using two back-to-back finishers, I was complaining about the practice in general.

Which other "finisher thing" do you mean?
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Old 06-06-2013, 09:25 AM   #283
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yup.
Also, thanks for not going into any details or anything.
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Old 06-06-2013, 09:30 AM   #284
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as I said I'm on my way out. If you want me to do that, I can respond in detail later. And the other finisher thing in the sense that "a finisher should be used when necessary", which couldn't really be further from reality in sense of how you structure a match (at least one that you want the people watching to get as "involved in" as possible) and then Jabba brings up (paraphrasing) "you should always be looking to hit it" which is pretty much spot on.
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Old 06-06-2013, 09:39 AM   #285
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Originally Posted by CSL View Post
as I said I'm on my way out. If you want me to do that, I can respond in detail later. And the other finisher thing in the sense that "a finisher should be used when necessary", which couldn't really be further from reality in sense of how you structure a match (at least one that you want the people watching to get as "involved in" as possible) and then Jabba brings up (paraphrasing) "you should always be looking to hit it" which is pretty much spot on.
Looking to hit a finisher is not the opposite of using them when necessary. That kind of goes right back to Sheamus doing two definitive finishers back to back for no reason, as well as Whereman's take on "psychology" as a whole.

That said, of course, I'd always much rather people give their input with actual detail than just something (no disrespect) useless like "oofah". "Oofah" doesn't teach me anything.
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Old 06-06-2013, 09:41 AM   #286
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but come on, "oofah" is a fun word I'll be back on later/carry on listening.
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Old 06-06-2013, 09:53 AM   #287
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This is true enough.
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Old 06-06-2013, 09:59 AM   #288
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Some of TNAs stuff is pretty r efreshing in comparison to WWE, tbh. I'm not completely sold but I mean, the "loltna" days are probably over soon. Yeah, we give WWE a little tough love in this episode but we have some good things to say about the product as well. The Shield stuff and rhe Daniel Bryan stuff is on fire lately. The Curtis Axel thing puts a bad taste in my mouth at the moment, but its not like we didn't know they were going to try to ruin him before he even got a chance.
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Old 06-06-2013, 10:08 AM   #289
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Didn't listen to the podcast but I hope you guys don't think you can go from legit Jobber to legit Main Eventer that fast.
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Old 06-06-2013, 10:15 AM   #290
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I don't follow.
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Old 06-06-2013, 10:18 AM   #291
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If I remember correctly last PC guys you were saying Curtis should have got the clean win over Cena.
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Old 06-06-2013, 10:22 AM   #292
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He should have. (I didn't know you meant Axel.)
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Old 06-06-2013, 10:25 AM   #293
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Vic View Post
Didn't listen to the podcast but I hope you guys don't think you can go from legit Jobber to legit Main Eventer that fast.
Well, yeah. You kind of can. Or at least you can make people care. Think back to when Carlito made his debut and beat John Cena on his first night. That created buzz righr off the bat and made you be like "whoa, who is this fuck?" If Curtis Axel had come in and legit bat Triple H, it would've set the wrestling world on fire. Trips couldve still had his headache to save face.

I guess my biggest gripe about this is why do you go through all the trouble to give this guy prime TV spots and give him Heyman as a promo man if you don't want him to actually beat anybody. They protect people far too much. If you want the guy to be a big deal, make him a big deal. There is no way around having a guy beat top competition if you want him to be big. There just isn't. I wish there was, but there isn't.
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Old 06-06-2013, 10:29 AM   #294
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Well he's beating Sin Cara on Smackdown, their biggest problem is that Heels hold all the secondary titles. If Dean loses the US title or if Miz wins the IC title that should be the next target for Axel. He can be built up, he's holding his own with Cena, that a pretty good rub right there. And you are right they should have played up that he beat HHH.
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Old 06-06-2013, 10:30 AM   #295
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He should have. (I didn't know you meant Axel.)
Agree to disagree then.
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Old 06-06-2013, 10:35 AM   #296
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Well he's beating Sin Cara on Smackdown, their biggest problem is that Heels hold all the Secondary titles. If Kofi still had the US title or if Miz wins the IC title that should be the next target for Axel.
Well, they are making a point to say this guy is the next big deal and they are putting him in main events. If they want us to take him as a main eventer, he needs to beat main eventers. Thats my take. I just hate how they're always so afraid to make guys a big deal but they want you to treat them like a big deal anyway. Its frustrating.
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Old 06-06-2013, 10:36 AM   #297
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Vic View Post
Well he's beating Sin Cara on Smackdown, their biggest problem is that Heels hold all the Secondary titles. If Kofi still had the US title or if Miz wins the IC title that should be the next target for Axel.
He doesn't need a title, he needs a legitimate win. Beating Sin Cara means virtually nothing while trying to set him up as a top guy -- kind of like two count-outs that could have been real victories.

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Agree to disagree then.
No. Tell me WHY you disagree.
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Old 06-06-2013, 10:39 AM   #298
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Its to early for a main event spot for him right now, the general fan isn't buying it, perhaps after a lengthy IC title run that opportunity can open.
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Old 06-06-2013, 10:44 AM   #299
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Yeah, maybe an IC title reign would do. I'm just saying, if he isn't ready, then he shouldn't be main eventing and being pushed as the second coming of Mr. Perfect. They are sending us the message of "hey, you need to care about this guy right now," but booking is telling us another story.
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Old 06-06-2013, 10:45 AM   #300
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He doesn't need a title, he needs a legitimate win. Beating Sin Cara means virtually nothing while trying to set him up as a top guy -- kind of like two count-outs that could have been real victories.



No. Tell me WHY you disagree.
Beating Sin Cara is a step up from jobbing on SMS, it's a good pace for him, He shouldn't be rocketed to the top where he's going to be lost in the shuffle.

If he beat Cena clean I would have said "What? why?" and then I would have hoped they threw out the 3 Stages of hell scenario and made it a Triple threat match where he goes toe to to with Cena and Ryback and comes really close to winning. But that would be stupid to make such a left turn right there.

Why damage your Payback main event by making Cena lose to Axel? Why SHOULD Axel beat him cleanly, there is no reason to.

Remember when Ryback was hot-shotted to the main event lost and kept losing against Punk because Punk had to hold the title until atleast the Rumble? While he was losing by dirty means it still tarnished his rep to the point where he loses his WM match and one could predict he is on his way down the card now.
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Old 06-06-2013, 10:46 AM   #301
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Quote:
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They are sending us the message of "hey, you need to care about this guy right now," but booking is telling us another story.
From what I've seen only Heyman is giving that message. Heyman is trying to prove to everyone that he is legit, no one else has bought it yet, but Axel hasn't lost yet so he's still moving forward.
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Old 06-06-2013, 10:48 AM   #302
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Well, a clean victory would probably do that. But if Ryback drove an ambulance out and Axel capitalized and got the win, that doesn't hurt anything. I see what you're saying though.
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Old 06-06-2013, 10:54 AM   #303
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CSL View Post
and then Jabba brings up (paraphrasing) "you should always be looking to hit it" which is pretty much spot on.
If you've perfected a move to the point that it pretty much always puts your opponent down for three, then you should probably be looking to hit it whenever the opportunity arises.

However, your opponent also knows this, so it shouldn't be possible to successfully hit your finisher in every match, when your opponent is looking out for it.

This is why I have a problem with the whole "I'm heading up top, uncharacteristically, so that I can dive towards Randy Orton, neck first" thing.
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Old 06-06-2013, 10:55 AM   #304
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From what I've seen only Heyman is giving that message. Heyman is trying to prove to everyone that he is legit, and Axel hasn't lost yet so he's still moving forward.
Well, he's been in the main event on every RAW since he's debuted and they recap all of his segments like 7000 times. I think I can safely assume that they want him to be a big deal. I dunno, maybe I'm wrong. Triple H apparently made the call to bring him in cause he's thinks he's the next "guy." It doesn't make sense to me that he'd be ready to main event shows but not ready to win main events. If he's "the guy" that you are giving your PRIME tv real estate, then he's gotta be worth investing in. There is no way around not beatinf main eventers if he is to be taken as a big deal.
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Old 06-06-2013, 11:00 AM   #305
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Well for they past 3 weeks he's been used to Get HHH's attention off Lesnar and then let Ryback get the upperhand on Cena two times to put Ryback a bit over. It's to early to tell what they really want to do with him.
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Old 06-06-2013, 11:07 AM   #306
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I think just going off the fact that he's being managed by Paul Heyman, who manages the other two biggest stars in the company, we can probably assume that he's supposed to be a big deal. Not to mention that he's in the main event every week. But what do I know? I could be wrong.
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Old 06-06-2013, 12:30 PM   #307
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Its to early for a main event spot for him right now, the general fan isn't buying it, perhaps after a lengthy IC title run that opportunity can open.
Wha...but...we're not talking about a normal slow burn, we're talking about launching a guy.

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Beating Sin Cara is a step up from jobbing on SMS, it's a good pace for him, He shouldn't be rocketed to the top where he's going to be lost in the shuffle.
How is rocketed equated to lost in the shuffle? I'm pretty sure that being the new big badass on the street is the opposite of being lost in the shuffle.

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If he beat Cena clean I would have said "What? why?" and then I would have hoped they threw out the 3 Stages of hell scenario and made it a Triple threat match where he goes toe to to with Cena and Ryback and comes really close to winning. But that would be stupid to make such a left turn right there.

Why damage your Payback main event by making Cena lose to Axel? Why SHOULD Axel beat him cleanly, there is no reason to.
Well then, by all means, let's put Axel in the main event of two consecutive Raws and completely waste them by having them end with inaction. That makes a lot more sense than planning ahead and doing something surprising in the Anything Can Happen company.

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Remember when Ryback was hot-shotted to the main event lost and kept losing against Punk because Punk had to hold the title until atleast the Rumble? While he was losing by dirty means it still tarnished his rep to the point where he loses his WM match and one could predict he is on his way down the card now.
Losing via underhanded tactics did not tarnish his rep, it made the fans crave his victory. And...how is a one-on-one event like a 3 stages of hell match with the WWE Champion considered "on his way down the card"? And putting that silliness aside, why would launching Axel have to be compared to Ryback, and not Punk or, dare I say it, JBL?
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Old 06-06-2013, 12:46 PM   #308
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He's not the new badass on the street though he's the new "Blue Chipper" as JR used to say. No one is running in fear from him because they remember his past, he is building himself up now.

His 2 matches with Cena was more about Ryback getting one up on Cena. It also built up Axel a bit too because not he can say that he beat Cena twice.
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Losing via underhanded tactics did not tarnish his rep, Yes it did it made the fans crave his victory. No it didn't they stopped caring. After he lost the TLC match to punk how many times did you see people spam post "THE RYBACK"? Not much if at all. the allure to him was gone. ANd...how is a one-on-one event like a 3 stages of hell match with the WWE CHampion considered "on his way down the card"? I would bet after his program with Cena you will see him fall down the card, he has already peaked (i.e. Khali in 2007)
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Old 06-06-2013, 01:12 PM   #309
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He's not the new badass on the street though he's the new "Blue Chipper" as JR used to say. No one is running in fear from him because they remember his past, he is building himself up now.
Wha...fuckin'...Dude, he'd be the new badass if they MADE him the new badass. In fact, you're making the same argument, just saying he needs a title instead of just having him beat top guys. You honestly think he couldn't have rolled up Cena off the Ryback ambulance distraction beFORE Cena forgot he was in a match? You expect me to believe that it's better that Triple H wandered away from the ring due to a concussion rather than falter in the ring to allow Axel to pin him by it? You are out of your god damned mind.
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Old 06-06-2013, 01:13 PM   #310
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Tangent: I'd like to see Bryan beat Ryback at the PPV after Payback then have Big E Finish him off at Summer Slam.
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Old 06-06-2013, 01:15 PM   #311
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You honestly think he couldn't have rolled up Cena off the Ryback ambulance distraction
That's not a clean win.
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Old 06-06-2013, 01:16 PM   #312
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That's not a clean win.
It's still a fucking pinfall victory!
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Old 06-06-2013, 01:17 PM   #313
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If I remember correctly last PC guys you were saying Curtis should have got the clean win over Cena.
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He should have. (I didn't know you meant Axel.)
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Old 06-06-2013, 01:33 PM   #314
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Narc says I'm being snarky, but fuck that. Savior must explain himself to me, because my brain is overloading.

I want to be clear: I love conversation, and I encourage anyone who thinks I'm a blithering idiot to talk to me about it and enlighten me, if nothing else, as to why we see things in different lights. I am not intending to intimidate anyone who doesn't agree that Orton is a shitbag fuck sucker.

Still, though, Savior: you're killin' me, bud.
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Old 06-06-2013, 01:34 PM   #315
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Also, what are they protecting by not having him get wins over the main eventers? Would Triple H or John Cena lose any credibility whatsoever by putting Axel over? I don't think os. John Cena lost probably most of his PPV matches last year and was bested by Punk on several occasions. He is no worse off for it. Now, if they brought him in as a midcard guy I could understand all of this but he's been thrusted into the main event immediately. He's either at that level or he isn't. The way they are booking this is just very confusing.
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Old 06-06-2013, 01:36 PM   #316
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I just don't think Axel should beat Cena clean.

Posts 34-36 pretty much sum up that AL and I are arguing over miscommunication.
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Old 06-06-2013, 01:39 PM   #317
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What is your definition of clean? If Ryback cause a distraction and Curt capitalizes then Cena loses nothing. If Triple H's head explodes and Curt capitalizes then Triple H loses nothing. These count out victories just don't mean anything.
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Old 06-06-2013, 01:41 PM   #318
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I just don't think Axel should beat Cena clean.

Posts 34-36 pretty much sum up that AL and I are arguing over miscommunication.
Again, I say: so what? Distraction, roll-up, THEN Cena runs to find RyBack. How is that WORSE than what they chose to do?
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Old 06-06-2013, 01:47 PM   #319
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What is your definition of clean? If Ryback cause a distraction and Curt capitalizes then Cena loses nothing. If Triple H's head explodes and Curt capitalizes then Triple H loses nothing. These count out victories just don't mean anything.
My definition of a clean victory would be No distractions, no interference, no cheating, etc. A pure victory where no rules are broken.

Curtis could have beat HHH by pinfall but I think it was more dramatic that HHH just could not continue the match. I still think HHH should not have been able to continue after Axel pulled off a move on the outside, like whipping him into the ring post.
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Old 06-06-2013, 01:50 PM   #320
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Again, I say: so what? Distraction, roll-up, THEN Cena runs to find RyBack. How is that WORSE than what they chose to do?
I never said it would be worse, I just said that wouldn't be clean.
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