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Old 10-23-2015, 12:38 PM   #121
The CyNick
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Originally Posted by BigCrippyZ View Post
Really? You can't be fucking stupid enough to believe this. Would Austin have said it was a success losing repeatedly and made to look pale in comparison to HBK or Taker? Would Rock have said it was a success being fed to Foley or Austin? Would HHH have thought he was successful if he continuously looked like he couldn't compete with guys like Rock and Austin? Compare their world title runs to Seth's and Seth's becomes a joke.

And yes, Owens and Rusev have gone on to such great things since being fed to Cena.
You're mixing up issues.

Guys like Rusev, Owens, Wyatt, etc got to program with Cena very early in their tenure. No different that Cena had early matches with guys like Angle and Taker and lost. The difference is Cena elevated his game and surpassed those guys. The guys like Rusev, Wyatt, and Owens have yet to elevate their game.

Separate to that, no, true alphas like Hunter, Austin, and Rock wouldn't be happy just having a short dance in the spotlight, they wanted the entire spotlight. So they worked hard, proved to be better than their peers and they got the spot.

On the flip side there are plenty of very successful guys who made a living out of being a guy who worked with top guys, but was never a top guy themselves. Guys like Foley and Jericho fit this bill. They could never get over that final hump, but they had great careers where their highlights were basically making the elite guys looks better.
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Old 10-23-2015, 12:51 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by The CyNick View Post
First, Cena has put over lots of guys. Way more than he should.

If you are referring to guys losing to Cena, no it shouldn't be their goal to ultimately lose. However, if the peak of your career is you worked a back and forth program with one of the greatest stars in the history of the industry, you did pretty well.
Who did Cena put over? Who WON a feud against Cena?

These guys aren't going back and forth with Cena, they are winning maybe one match then losing all the others.
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Old 10-23-2015, 12:57 PM   #123
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Who did Cena put over? Who WON a feud against Cena?

These guys aren't going back and forth with Cena, they are winning maybe one match then losing all the others.
Look dude, you don't understand the business. Cena went 2-1 against Owens. If you think that should have gone any other way, I don't know how to help you.

Look at Foleys record vs Taker in their first run in 96. Look at Austins record with Bret. Look at Cena's initial run. All these guys got rubs by working with established top guys but ultimately counting the lights. The talent needs to elevate their game to get to the next level. The guys today don't know how or don't want to do that.
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Old 10-23-2015, 01:03 PM   #124
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I was merely responding to things you have said
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Originally Posted by The CyNick View Post
First, Cena has put over lots of guys. Way more than he should.
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Originally Posted by Big Vic View Post
Who did Cena put over? Who WON a feud against Cena?
==============================
Quote:
Originally Posted by The CyNick View Post
If you are referring to guys losing to Cena, no it shouldn't be their goal to ultimately lose. However, if the peak of your career is you worked a back and forth program with one of the greatest stars in the history of the industry, you did pretty well.
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These guys aren't going back and forth with Cena, they are winning maybe one match then losing all the others.
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Old 10-23-2015, 01:09 PM   #125
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Punk, Bryan, Lesnar

If you don't think Cena put all those guys over STRONG you're a moron. Which could be the case
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Old 10-23-2015, 01:24 PM   #126
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Still remember the Cena/Lesnar match at Extreme Rules. Very underrated match told with violence and stairs
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Old 10-23-2015, 01:30 PM   #127
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I thought you said earlier you were against name calling but ok

I'll give you Lesnar and Bryan although I will say Bryan and Cena didn't have a real feud and just a match. But he did put him over in the match.

Punk and Cena always were about about equal in there feuds, but yes in 2011 Cena put over Punk at MITB and then (cleanly?) at summerslam and look what it did for punks Career. He became the number 2 guy in the company.

Bryan wins a match against Cena and then doesn't have it sullied with 3 consecutive losses to Cena after and he is made into a star. (The WWE decides to fuck that up in the Fall but that's a different topic).

---------------------------------

If I was in charge I would have done that with Rusev at Mania. then He beats Cena again at Extreme Rules. I would have Rusev be the top heel in the company and have him only been taken down by the next rising face of the company.
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Old 10-23-2015, 02:00 PM   #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Vic View Post
I thought you said earlier you were against name calling but ok

I'll give you Lesnar and Bryan although I will say Bryan and Cena didn't have a real feud and just a match. But he did put him over in the match.

Punk and Cena always were about about equal in there feuds, but yes in 2011 Cena put over Punk at MITB and then (cleanly?) at summerslam and look what it did for punks Career. He became the number 2 guy in the company.

Bryan wins a match against Cena and then doesn't have it sullied with 3 consecutive losses to Cena after and he is made into a star. (The WWE decides to fuck that up in the Fall but that's a different topic).

---------------------------------

If I was in charge I would have done that with Rusev at Mania. then He beats Cena again at Extreme Rules. I would have Rusev be the top heel in the company and have him only been taken down by the next rising face of the company.
Consider it me giving you a rub by calling you a name. My apologies. I'm sure you're not a moron.

The point of contention was Cenas role in putting guys over. As I have demonstrated he did that many times. How they got over after that had zero to do with Cena.

No offense but that booking makes no sense. Rusev was already essentially the number 1, maybe number 2 heel. He was up against the top babyface in a high profile championship match at Mania. If he beats Cena, where does he go from there? Cena never beat him like he was some JOB guy, Cena let Rusev shine in their matches. As should be the case in sports entertainment, the babyface went over in the end.

Besides, if Cena had lost that program, Lesnar dominating him at Summerslam would have meant very little, becuase it would have been like "yeah Cena just got dominated by Rusev too, big deal"
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Old 10-23-2015, 02:10 PM   #129
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I stated in a thread months ago (probably when you weren't here, also it was before Brock re-signed) that I felt Rusev should have been the one to go over Brock sometime before Mania. Beat Cena at Mania, while Reigns beats Brock at the same event). Setting up for Reigns to be the one to topple Rusev at SummerSlam, if Reigns was ready to be the top guy, and then Reigns would beat Cena at WM32.

Cena would be putting 2 guys over that could carry the company well on into the future..... Too bad Reigns can't cut a promo to save his life.

Quote:
As should be the case in sports entertainment, the babyface went over in the end.
My outlook on this is different, I feel Heels should be the ones dominating and faces should have the short runs. That is not WWEs vision but other territories followed this.
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Old 10-23-2015, 02:25 PM   #130
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I stated in a thread months ago (probably when you weren't here, also it was before Brock re-signed) that I felt Rusev should have been the one to go over Brock sometime before Mania. Beat Cena at Mania, while Reigns beats Brock at the same event). Setting up for Reigns to be the one to topple Rusev at SummerSlam if Reigns was ready to be the top guy, and then Reigns would beat Cena at WM32.
But don't you think it's a waste to put all that effort into building Brock (breaks the streak, dominates Cena, plows through everyone for 8 months) only to lose to someone (Rusev in this case) "sometime before Mania". Seems anti climactic.

And you've now beaten Brock AND Cena multiple times to get to Rusev v Reigns. Maybe that would have worked, although as we've seen, the crowd isn't ready to embrace Reigns add the number one babyface. Imagine promos leading up to a big match where Rusev is essentially silent and Roman is trying to fumble through his lines. I bet you look to get the belt back on Cena ASAP.

I go back to the US Open Challenge. Look how strong Cena has made that belt. Some people say is just as important as the WWE title. When was the last time that happened? That all stated by Cena winning the program with Rusev and acting like it was a big deal.

Rusev had stumbled since then, but part of that was the injury derailed him and this love quartet angle was misplaced. To make matters worse Lana probably screwed them both with her big mouth. Hopefully he can be built back up but with me dimension to his character.
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Old 10-23-2015, 02:32 PM   #131
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My outlook on this is different, I feel Heels should be the ones dominating and faces should have the short runs. That is not WWEs vision but other territories followed this.
Diffrrent strokes. To me WWE is vastly superior to all other sports entertainment companies. I would take their booking logic to the bank.

If babyfaces fail right after they succeed they are lousy babyfaces. Hard to imagine those people drawing. Imagine if the Heath Ledger Batman ending with him blowing up the two boats of citizens and inmates. Batman just shrugs into the camera and goes "oops" as credits role.
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Old 10-23-2015, 02:49 PM   #132
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But don't you think it's a waste to put all that effort into building Brock (breaks the streak, dominates Cena, plows through everyone for 8 months) only to lose to someone (Rusev in this case) "sometime before Mania". Seems anti climactic.

And you've now beaten Brock AND Cena multiple times to get to Rusev v Reigns. Maybe that would have worked, although as we've seen, the crowd isn't ready to embrace Reigns add the number one babyface. Imagine promos leading up to a big match where Rusev is essentially silent and Roman is trying to fumble through his lines. I bet you look to get the belt back on Cena ASAP.
It wouldn't have been at waste of putting 2 people over Brock at that time, WWE was not sure Brock was going to be staying with the company until like a week before Mania. when I say some time before Mania I am thinking Survivor Series or rumble not a minor PPV like TLC.

The crowd didn't openly reject Reigns until he won the rumble If he gets tossed out of the rumble, he wouldn't be catching so much flak.

But he still can't cut a promo, I thought he would have been ready by now. You could continue with Rusev being a dominating champ like HHH in 2003 with losing some title matches here and there until someone who can carry the company dethrones him.
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I go back to the US Open Challenge. Look how strong Cena has made that belt. Some people say is just as important as the WWE title. When was the last time that happened? That all stated by Cena winning the program with Rusev and acting like it was a big deal.
He made the Belt look very strong, but not the people he is facing. It would be on thing if Cena beat some people easily and then had really close matchs with other guys. But if your having really close matches with everyone then it doesn't do anything for anybody.
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Old 10-23-2015, 02:55 PM   #133
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Diffrrent strokes. To me WWE is vastly superior to all other sports entertainment companies. I would take their booking logic to the bank.

If babyfaces fail right after they succeed they are lousy babyfaces. Hard to imagine those people drawing. Imagine if the Heath Ledger Batman ending with him blowing up the two boats of citizens and inmates. Batman just shrugs into the camera and goes "oops" as credits role.
Well with the batman analogy Joker takes out the cops, judges, etc before facing the rising star of batman. Batman wins. Bane comes in a crushes Batman, dominates Gotham for a long awhile until Batman comes back and beats him Cat woman comes back and beats him.
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Old 10-23-2015, 03:03 PM   #134
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Well with the batman analogy Joker takes out the cops, judges, etc before facing the rising star of batman. Batman wins. Bane comes in a crushes Batman, dominates Gotham for a long awhile until Batman comes back and beats him Cat woman comes back and beats him.
I'm sure cat woman will be as big of a draw as batman
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Old 10-23-2015, 03:03 PM   #135
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I didn't book it, Chris Nolan did.
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Old 10-23-2015, 03:05 PM   #136
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It wouldn't have been at waste of putting 2 people over Brock at that time, WWE was not sure Brock was going to be staying with the company until like a week before Mania. when I say some time before Mania I am thinking Survivor Series or rumble not a minor PPV like TLC.

The crowd didn't openly reject Reigns until he won the rumble If he gets tossed out of the rumble, he wouldn't be catching so much flak.

But he still can't cut a promo, I thought he would have been ready by now. You could continue with Rusev being a dominating champ like HHH in 2003 with losing some title matches here and there until someone who can carry the company dethrones him.
He made the Belt look very strong, but not the people he is facing. It would be on thing if Cena beat some people easily and then had really close matchs with other guys. But if your having really close matches with everyone then it doesn't do anything for anybody.
You may not have been sure Brock was leaving, but I believe WWE was 90% certain he was staying

As it stands Brock is still strong. I think he will make more money for WWE over the next few years than Reigns would have. As he's shown recently, he's not ready to be a top baby
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Old 10-23-2015, 03:06 PM   #137
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I didn't book it, Chris Nolan did.
Either way, I would trust the guy I know can draw.
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Old 10-23-2015, 03:52 PM   #138
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Cena doesn't draw like he used to, it's time for someone new.
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Old 10-23-2015, 03:58 PM   #139
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Cena doesn't draw like he used to, it's time for someone new.
Network subs have been increasing year over year. Mania has sold out huge arenas every year with him on top. I dunno, what are the metrics that prove his time isn't now?

That said, WWE is clearly trying to find the next guy. They spent the better part of a year laying the groundwork for the Daniel Bryan run and through a fluke that didn't pan out.

Before that they spent countless months trying to get Punk over as a headliner. He got to a certain level and couldn't maintain and ultimately burnt out.

Roman Reigns has been pegged as a guy to potentially take over, but he hasn't gotten to the level they need.

I'm sure this year they will try again (maybe another shot with Reigns, maybe someone else). And we'll see if that guy can fill John's boots.

There should be no rush to push him aside just for the sake of doing it though.
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Old 10-23-2015, 04:11 PM   #140
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Not saying do it tomorrow, no one can fill his shoes on the main roster, as of right now. But WWE should know the answer by WM32. If that answer is still "Cena" then I will continue not to watch.
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Old 10-23-2015, 04:22 PM   #141
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Not saying do it tomorrow, no one can fill his shoes on the main roster, as of right now. But WWE should know the answer by WM32. If that answer is still "Cena" then I will continue not to watch.
Classic case of promising a stip you won't deliver on
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Old 10-23-2015, 04:22 PM   #142
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I haven't watched for over a month so far...
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Old 10-23-2015, 05:06 PM   #143
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You haven't missed anything.
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Old 10-23-2015, 05:33 PM   #144
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So CyNick didnt answer a single point I made. Look at it his way.

My outlook isn't negative, its realistic. Social media doesn't mean shit for WWE and the rating is down. But I enjoy so much about the world of wrestling and WWE, and with doing the podcast I love wrestling maybe more than ever because we get so many different opinions of so many different topics that its fascinating to me. But I'm also well aware that fans like us here on a forum are the minority. And if the crowds were going wild for the current stuff, you'd be right to tell me to get over it and move on. But we're in the middle of either a transitional point in storylines, or, as it feels to a lot of people clearly, at a stage where there just isnt a lot to be excited about until Rumble time when things will be important again.
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Old 10-23-2015, 06:37 PM   #145
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Originally Posted by hb2k View Post
So CyNick didnt answer a single point I made. Look at it his way.

My outlook isn't negative, its realistic. Social media doesn't mean shit for WWE and the rating is down. But I enjoy so much about the world of wrestling and WWE, and with doing the podcast I love wrestling maybe more than ever because we get so many different opinions of so many different topics that its fascinating to me. But I'm also well aware that fans like us here on a forum are the minority. And if the crowds were going wild for the current stuff, you'd be right to tell me to get over it and move on. But we're in the middle of either a transitional point in storylines, or, as it feels to a lot of people clearly, at a stage where there just isnt a lot to be excited about until Rumble time when things will be important again.
People consume entertainment online, dont know if you heard. That is clear from the WWEs wildly successful social media numbers. If social media doesn't matter why does just about every company engage in it? Who told you social media means shit to WWE? You sound like another negative Nelly with a podcsst that I know. You don't see WWEs internal data on how social media impacts their other revenue streams, yet you make a blanket statement about how it doesn't mean shit. You would think someone with a podcast would automatically understand the business aspects of WWE.

The WWE You Tube page shows various clips from WWE shows, and at the end guess what it promotes? A little thing called the WWE Network. Do you know how many people watched those clips and decided to order WWE Network? I'll answer for you, you have no idea. You read some 4 point newsletter and think you understand how WWEs revenue streams work. Its hilarious to me.

If you enjoy sorts entertainment then great, but you, and just about everyone on this sad sad place sound like you hate it. Maybe change your podcast to something you are excited about. I mean that's just me. I would never want to spend so much time on something I'm not enjoying like you guys do. But if you enjoy it, that's cool too.
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Old 10-23-2015, 06:38 PM   #146
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I haven't watched for over a month so far...
I'll catch you in this lie at a later date.
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Old 10-23-2015, 09:24 PM   #147
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I'll catch you in this lie at a later date.
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Classic case of a promise you won't deliver on
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Old 10-23-2015, 09:27 PM   #148
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Originally Posted by The CyNick View Post
If you enjoy sorts entertainment then great, but you, and just about everyone on this sad sad place sound like you hate it. Maybe change your podcast to something you are excited about. I mean that's just me. I would never want to spend so much time on something I'm not enjoying like you guys do. But if you enjoy it, that's cool too.
Maybe he enjoys other shows like NXT, ROH, CHW, TNA, or NJPW
Last edited by Savio; 10-23-2015 at 09:43 PM. Reason: Wait no one could like TNA, sorry
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Old 10-24-2015, 06:35 AM   #149
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Originally Posted by The CyNick View Post
People consume entertainment online, dont know if you heard. That is clear from the WWEs wildly successful social media numbers. If social media doesn't matter why does just about every company engage in it? Who told you social media means shit to WWE? You sound like another negative Nelly with a podcsst that I know. You don't see WWEs internal data on how social media impacts their other revenue streams, yet you make a blanket statement about how it doesn't mean shit. You would think someone with a podcast would automatically understand the business aspects of WWE.
Actually I did in the last post and you chose to ignore it. Any time they chose not to plug Lesnar on TV but did on Twitter, it meant nothing for ratings. And, as I said before and you ignored, the only place they plugged Steve Austins first Raw in 4 years was Twitter, and it did a 2.2. So how does that work for them?

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Originally Posted by The CyNick View Post
WWE You Tube page shows various clips from WWE shows, and at the end guess what it promotes? A little thing called the WWE Network. Do you know how many people watched those clips and decided to order WWE Network? I'll answer for you, you have no idea. You read some 4 point newsletter and think you understand how WWEs revenue streams work. Its hilarious to me.
I know how many subscribers they have because they announce them. Of course I don't know YouTube conversion, and neither do you, its completely speculative. But ratings and house shows being down, and the Network being below what they have always said their original break even point is, while their social media is high doesnt correlate. I don't need to read a newsletter to figure that out, thats common sense.

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Originally Posted by The CyNick View Post
If you enjoy sorts entertainment then great, but you, and just about everyone on this sad sad place sound like you hate it. Maybe change your podcast to something you are excited about. I mean that's just me. I would never want to spend so much time on something I'm not enjoying like you guys do. But if you enjoy it, that's cool too.
Maybe you should learn to read. Multiple times I've said I am loving following wrestling, and my initial post you jumped on I didnt even hint that I wasnt, I simply made an observation about how the WWE doesnt react to ratings much the way they used to, and it shows how much wrestling has changed. You completely misinterpreted the point, as you constantly have in this thread. Savio above me clearly understands, as have others. You're jumping to conclusions that everybody is negative, when it isnt hating everything the WWE does to make a post in a wrestling forum that the lowest rating in 18 years isnt a good thing.
Last edited by hb2k; 10-24-2015 at 07:29 AM.
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Old 10-24-2015, 11:14 AM   #150
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You're trying to change the argument.

You said social media means shit. Which I know where you got that idea from but you won't admit it. Aside from that you made the fair point that advertising Austin's return solely on social media didn't bump television ratings. But I never argued that it would. What I think it BS is stating social media doesnt mean shit to WWE. Without access to WWE internal data you would have no idea about what benefits WWE gets from their highly successful activities on social media. Would television ratings have been higher if they promoted Austin on TV, maybe a little, but maybe the shock will have an impact down the road. Either way its irrelevant to the point that "social media means shit".

As for The Network, it's increasing year over year. In business when you start a new venture you expect losses at first, but long term it pays off. The Network is still in its infancy. From a revenue perspective they are futher ahead now vs pre network with just ppv. Again, my earlier post was just tying the fact that social media likely does not "mean shit" to the success of the Network growth.

As for your enjoyment of the product, I believe most people here like wrestling more than they let on. I think you fall into the category of people who like to cater to the negative crowd who want to spend 3 hours a week watching RAW and then get together and go this is shit. My belief is you enjoy it, but to be a cool kid in the IWC podcast world you have to be negative like your overlords who you try to emulate.

But I could be way off. I'll give your podcast a listen and see if any of your arguments sound familiar.
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Old 10-24-2015, 11:52 AM   #151
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Didn't get the idea from anywhere, like I said, that's common sense as far as I see.

And Network revenue isn't ahead of pre-Network PPV revenue now at all, that's just a outright lie.

As for my general opinion on things, think it's pretty cut and dry, not a negative bastard for the hell of it, but when something bad happens, got to call it like it is.
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Old 10-24-2015, 12:24 PM   #152
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Kevin Sullivan brought up a great point. The company keeps bringing back old stars to boost ratings, but ends up reminding the audience that the current roster sucks.

Could you imagine if when Hogan and Savage were first brought in if Vince kept bringing up Pedro Morales, Bob Backlund and Bruno in big roles. Hogan and Savage might have never gotten so over.
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Old 10-24-2015, 01:20 PM   #153
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Originally Posted by Big Vic View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by The CyNick from the year 2016 View Post
Try looking at the viewership. NO chance they fall out of the top 20 anytime soon. Every thing is fine
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Originally Posted by The CyNick from the year 2017 View Post
Try looking at the viewership. NO chance they fall out of the top 30 anytime soon. Every thing is fine
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Originally Posted by The CyNick from the year 2018 View Post
Try looking at the viewership. NO chance they get canceled anytime soon. Every thing is fine
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Originally Posted by The CyNick from the year 2019 View Post
WWE moved to destination america, they weren't canceled. Do you have any evidence from someone who isn't a disgruntled employee, or a reporter who obviously has a vendetta against vince saying they were canceled?
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Originally Posted by The CyNick from the fall of 2019 View Post
The WWE Network is what the WWE needs to be on right now. More people are on the internet now than ever in history!

I don't feel like adding all the quotes like Savior did but this is post of the year worthy.
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Old 10-24-2015, 09:17 PM   #154
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Kevin Sullivan brought up a great point. The company keeps bringing back old stars to boost ratings, but ends up reminding the audience that the current roster sucks.

Could you imagine if when Hogan and Savage were first brought in if Vince kept bringing up Pedro Morales, Bob Backlund and Bruno in big roles. Hogan and Savage might have never gotten so over.
This is a very good point. I feel that when they have older stars involved in the product, they should be going out of their way to give the current generation and stories a rub. And can a guy really get to A1 if John Cena is still in the A-class babyface group? Cena taking some extended time off to allow the next guy a chance, or even turning heel, might be the best way to transition the people behind the new guy and his merchandise.
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Old 10-24-2015, 09:25 PM   #155
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If babyfaces fail right after they succeed they are lousy babyfaces. Hard to imagine those people drawing. Imagine if the Heath Ledger Batman ending with him blowing up the two boats of citizens and inmates. Batman just shrugs into the camera and goes "oops" as credits role.
But that's what they do with guys, CyNick. This has been a large point of contention with you that you've either ignored for argument's sake, to troll or because you don't understand it. In fact, they often don't give the face a chance to succeed before they start failing.

Cesaro and Ambrose spring immediately to mind. I think Cesaro has beaten Rusev twice since he split up from Tyson Kidd. He's not being positioned as a Batman. Isn't it weird he isn't getting over? Ambrose constantly chokes when he gets a chance to put his hand on his nemesis, and then he just meanders around the wastelands shrugging. He's not being positioned as Batman.

And, for that matter, no one is The Joker. Seth Rollins has been presented as fucking Kite Man.
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Old 10-27-2015, 12:18 PM   #156
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I'll catch you in this lie at a later date.
Still waiting for you to catch me in this "lie"
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Old 10-27-2015, 04:09 PM   #157
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Still waiting for you to catch me in this "lie"
What was your favorite match at Hell in a Cell?
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Old 10-27-2015, 04:13 PM   #158
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I think CyNick thinks he's got you trapped, Vic...
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Old 10-27-2015, 04:14 PM   #159
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lol i didn't watch.
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Old 10-27-2015, 04:15 PM   #160
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Very craftily avoided, Vic.
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