Do titles still actually mean anything anymore?

[Franchise]

I've felt this about the titles for some time.

I guess it began back at WM 18 when Rock v Hogan overshadowed the main event and then again at WM 26 when Taker v HBK (with his career on the line) headlined the card and then Rock v Cena at WM 28.

Perhaps it began when we had the brand extension and both the WHC and WWE title around.

But it just feels the titles don't mean so much anymore. The person holding the title is a part-timer who comes and go as he pleases as per his contract. The US and IC titles with their long and distinguished histories lack the prestige they once had. They were also stepping stones for the rising stars towards the main title but we've had the likes of Kofi Kingston hold the title and never progress to main-event status and then people like Santino..

The tag-team division I will give some credit for and I guess the Divas championship serves its purpose.

But for the other three.....do they really mean anything? Even when he isn't holding the belt John Cena is still the big star and regardless of who wins the Royal Rumble, the WWE title match isn't going to headline WM31.......after tonight it couldn't possibly be anything other than Sting v Triple H.....unless in some bizarre story-writing, Triple H is some how holding the WWE title at the time.


Title matches are meant to be exciting and those winning the titles are either big stars or getting the push towards the main event.

What do you think?

[Tazz Dan]

I think the booking of Brock and the World Heavyweight Championship has been done horribly wrong, especially if the rumours of him running back to UFC when his current deal is up is true. I was excited when he won them, but never having him on TV is fucking shit. When he does lose it though, with the current crop of talent in the main event scene now who could be fighting for it, it will be fixed quickly.

As for the Mid-Card titles, they haven't meant anything for a while now.

[Franchise]

Originally Posted by Tazz Dan I think the booking of Brock and the World Heavyweight Championship has been done horribly wrong, especially if the rumours of him running back to UFC when his current deal is up is true. I was excited when he won them, but never having him on TV is fucking shit. When he does lose it though, with the current crop of talent in the main event scene now who could be fighting for it, it will be fixed quickly. As for the Mid-Card titles, they haven't meant anything for a while now.

The thing with Lesnar his matches aren't even wrestling, they're just brawls or him beating up opponents. There's no entertainment in watching that.

Maybe I feel that way about him because of the whole streak thing even if it was scripted, WWE couldn't have chosen a more pretentious, overrated and undeserving "superstar" to conquer the streak. I can only imagine that Taker had been concussed so bad he was unable to get up from the pin that the ref had no choice but to make the three count or risk the whole ting becoming even more of a laughing stock. Brock Lesnar's mic skills are terrible. The only thing carrying that guy is the fact Paul Heyman is his manager.

To put the belt on a part-timer and not even have the champion present on a regular basis on the flagship show or even at key marquee ppvs like Survivor Series is a joke and discredits those on the roster who work hard for the company week in week out with the ridiculous amount of live shows they do home and abroad.

Also Rollins has held onto that briefcase for far too long now and I just wonder if he is ever going to cash it in at all.

[Droford]

[Franchise]

Originally Posted by Droford

Clearly but when singles non-title matches begin to be hyped up above and beyond title matches then really those belts are nothing more than scrap metal.

[Tom Guycott]

Also, WWE only makes incrimental steps to fix the issue by ONLY focusing on one title at a time until they get bored with it.

For example, let's throw out the possibility of them actually stepping Dolph up to the big time now and say he gets a rematch with Luke Harper for the IC. Instead of them having a war over it, it would most likely be Dolph losing his rematch and then that shit's over. Then Harper's requisite feud with Rowan, but that being more about their history with the Wyatt Family instead of the title. Luke Harper will keep the Intercontinental strap until they decide to try to make an instant big deal out of someone else.

People don't go to war over titles anymore. It's just a short, mostly forgettable feud OR a random title match.

Meanwhile, with that example, there is NO focus on the US title, Tag Team, or Diva's title, and the Heavyweight Champ is sitting at home for MONTHS, sight unseen.

Anytime the "lack of legitimacy" of titles comes up, I always think of the sad end for the Light Heavyweight/Crusierweight Championship... where the ONLY person in the "division" was the un-superhero'd Hurricane Helms. If they had people to pit him against, it could have been a damn good run, but as it stood, he was a king without a country. Nobody gave a shit, because there was nothing to give a shit about. It also makes me think of the initial joke of the Hardcore title, and it eventually becoming a contested thing. It seemed to become legit when Road Dogg won it and started defending it on a reguar basis. People started gunning for it. It wasn't just a prop or a joke anymore, and stayed legit until the whole 24/7 thing went way overboard years later.

This is one of those things that prove the problem wasn't having two different Heavyweight Championships, it was the constant lack of focus on legitimizing them both all the time.

[XL]

Kinda hate this topic, it's one of those that comes around all the time, a topic that we all agree on for the most part. That's not a knock at you, you're new here and you're just trying to start conversation.

Inevitably somebody will say "the titles are just props now", a ridiculous statement given that they have always been props. Though admittedly, they've been more valuable props in the past.

Rather than us all nodding along in agreement, perhaps the discussion should be "How Do You Make The Titles More Valuable?"

Wrestling is all about creating a "moment"; see Sting's debut last night, Bryan finally winning the title at Mania, The Streak coming to an end, etc. When was the last time somebody had a "moment" when they won the IC or US title?

Rusev's win should have been pretty big, but sort of got sidelined by getting involved with the Authority. I'm gonna go ahead and guess that Rusev's reign will be one of the better ones in the last few years. Why? Because Rusev is currently undefeated in terms of pinfalls and submissions, therefore WWE can't go the usual route of having Rusev lose non-title matches to set up his next challenger. Winning either midcard belt has been somewhat of albatross in recent years; you suddenly forget how to win and your perception plummets.

I'd like to see Rusev remain strong, and while it's massively gimmicked (and has been done before) I'd like him to change the US Title to be something like the Russian Heavyweight Championship. Have him turn away challenger after challenger until somebody finally beats him for the belt, in the process handing him his first loss and "saving" the US belt. THAT is a moment. Do it a Mania and it's a "WrestleMania Moment" for somebody. Throwing the Russian Heavyweight Championship in the trash the next night on Raw keeps the momentum up.

Yes the belt isn't the sole focus of the feud, but it doesn't need to be; the belt gets the rub from being involved, as long as it has some focus.

Another way to add a bit of shine to the midcard titles is to combine them. Not necessarily forever, just have one guy want to prove his superiority by holding both belts at the same time. This works even better while there is no top title on the scene.

One idea I had when Ambrose was US Champion was a sort of "Cold War" between the two midcard champs. I'd have put the IC Title on Reigns and had them competing to be the better champion; beating the same guys, trying to one up each other in terms of how dominant they are, never actually coming to blows with one another but there being an obvious undercurrent of "Who's the best?" between them, until you eventually have them put both titles on the line.

Obviously you can't do that the same way now that there's no Shield, but the idea could be tweaked.

One thing I think they could do is play "Hot Potato" with one of the belts. This might work best with the Tag Titles, where nobody can keep them for any length of time. Instead of having mammoth reigns where nothing happens (see Ambrose's US reign) or relatively short reigns where you go through the motions (see Sheamus' US reign), you have a number of short title reigns.

Some will criticise the "hot-shotting" of the belts to be devaluing the titles or burying the champion(s) but I think it'd make the division look stronger, or at least more competitive. What has this recent Tag Title run done for Gold & StarDust? They lost repeatedly in non-title matches and have now dropped the belts to Miz & Mizdow - the latest hot property.

At the very least you'd put some shine on the division by creating a dynamic where anybody can walk away with the titles on any show. It's gotta be better than knowing that the newly crowned Tag champs will almost definitely lose their first non-title match to set up their next contenders, who they'll beat at the PPV.

[XL]

As for the Lesnar issue; it'd be much more palatable if they actually acknowledged why he wasn't there. He decimated Cena to win the title, survived the rematch and got stomped by Rollins. That was the last thing he did.

He didn't say why he was going away for months. He hasn't got retribution on Rollins. He's just gone and they barely even talk about it.

If he'd come out and said that he's going away until there's someone worth defending against I could tolerate it. He says he wiped the floor with Cena, and Cena couldn't get the job done in the rematch. He's through with Cena and he's through with WWE until someone can step to the plate.

You then have X amount of time to build someone to challenge him. Have a company wide tournament to crown a new No. 1 Contender. Have Heyman come out and say that while you survived everybody else, you won't survive Brock Lesnar.

Get a PPV date out of Brock. Have him face this new challenger, narrowly beating him. That guy gets a rub from being close to toppling The Beast, whilst Lesnar stays strong as the champ.

Lesnar & Heyman come out on Raw triumphant. They boast that the "One in Twenty One and One beat The One that survived all the other ones", that even the best that WWE had to offer wasn't good enough. So, Brock's going again. He'll be back when WWE can find his next victim, and this time they'd better make it more of a challenge than the last time.

You can either have someone come out and confront Lesnar there and then, stating that they'll win the Royal Rumble and they'll have their shot at Lesnar in the Main Event of WrestleMania (no way Sting/HHH goes on last) and have Heyman sneer and say "I guess we'll see you in January" or you just have him walk out without planting the seed for the Rumble.

You could even have Lesnar appear in a Sky Box at the Rumble. And if you don't want to pay him to do that, film it at the previous PPV.

I'm not so bothered about him not defending the belt, or not being there for months at a time but there HAS to be a reason.

[Franchise]

Originally Posted by XL As for the Lesnar issue; it'd be much more palatable if they actually acknowledged why he wasn't there. He decimated Cena to win the title, survived the rematch and got stomped by Rollins. That was the last thing he did. He didn't say why he was going away for months. He hasn't got retribution on Rollins. He's just gone and they barely even talk about it. If he'd come out and said that he's going away until there's someone worth defending against I could tolerate it. He says he wiped the floor with Cena, and Cena couldn't get the job done in the rematch. He's through with Cena and he's through with WWE until someone can step to the plate. You then have X amount of time to build someone to challenge him. Have a company wide tournament to crown a new No. 1 Contender. Have Heyman come out and say that while you survived everybody else, you won't survive Brock Lesnar. Get a PPV date out of Brock. Have him face this new challenger, narrowly beating him. That guy gets a rub from being close to toppling The Beast, whilst Lesnar stays strong as the champ. Lesnar & Heyman come out on Raw triumphant. They boast that the "One in Twenty One and One beat The One that survived all the other ones", that even the best that WWE had to offer wasn't good enough. So, Brock's going again. He'll be back when WWE can find his next victim, and this time they'd better make it more of a challenge than the last time. You can either have someone come out and confront Lesnar there and then, stating that they'll win the Royal Rumble and they'll have their shot at Lesnar in the Main Event of WrestleMania (no way Sting/HHH goes on last) and have Heyman sneer and say "I guess we'll see you in January" or you just have him walk out without planting the seed for the Rumble. You could even have Lesnar appear in a Sky Box at the Rumble. And if you don't want to pay him to do that, film it at the previous PPV. I'm not so bothered about him not defending the belt, or not being there for months at a time but there HAS to be a reason.

As a rule of thumb I would say the main event should always be the title match given the tagline of winning the RR was always to "main event WM".

But given the magnitude of Sting making his debut and what could essentially be his one and only match I would hate to see him anywhere else on the card except in the main event.

That would also very much depend on the storyline with Triple and what's at stake i.e. total control, Triple H retires if he loses, if somehow Triple H is holding the title (stranger things could happen), if it's in a cage or hiac (both unlikely given Sting's age and both of his and Triple H's physical limitations).

We shall see. I recall JR saying recently how he and other bookers regret in hindsight not putting Rock and Hogan last on WM 18. Not quite sure this is at that level (yet).

But as a unashamedly biased Sting fan I would love to see the man who represented everything that was great about McMahon's one-time rival organization, headline WWE's flagship show.

[XL]

Yes, I can see you're a big Sting fan and if everybody was as high on him as you are he'd go on last but they're not and I don't think he will. You've also admitted yourself that Sting-HHH is no Rock-Hogan. In fact, it's not even Taker-Brock (given how that went) and that didn't go on last. You've also gotta think about the quality of a Sting match in 2015; would they close the show with that?

More so, if WWE are so high on putting Reigns over they'll do it in the Main Event spot.

[Franchise]

Originally Posted by XL Yes, I can see you're a big Sting fan and if everybody was as high on him as you are he'd go on last but they're not and I don't think he will. You've also admitted yourself that Sting-HHH is no Rock-Hogan. In fact, it's not even Taker-Brock (given how that went) and that didn't go on last. You've also gotta think about the quality of a Sting match in 2015; would they close the show with that? More so, if WWE are so high on putting Reigns over they'll do it in the Main Event spot.

Perhaps. But as I said it will depend on so many variables;

- When will Roman Reigns and Daniel Bryan be returning to in-ring action?

- What they have in store for Lesnar, will he hold the title until WM or lose it before then? Given the way the Authority/bad guys have their tail between their legs, I wouldn't be surprised to see Cena win it for (oh goody) 16th time at TLC (that's when they're fighting right) and end 2014 on a high. Or......

- Cena could win it....Rollins cashes in and the Authority get the last laugh of sorts.



But back to Sting. Whether he headlines WM or not would depend on whether or not he continued to generate a huge pop, how well he goes down with the fans and audience in terms of merchandise sales and even if subscriptions to the network go up so people can watch more of Sting's golden days. Finally it will really very much depend on what if any stipulation the Sting v Triple H match would carry. If it was a full control or retirement match or even a title match then it may well occupy the main event slot.

I do feel WWE and the fans appreciate the magnitude of Sting making his full in ring debut so it may well be a case of wanting to keep the fans waiting that little bit longer until the end of the night. We've waited for more than a decade, sure a few more hours on the WM card wouldn't do any harm.

[Corkscrewed]

Originally Posted by Droford

LOL, so true.
But I must admit that I've never seen the heavyweight title of the WWE so neglected for such an extended period of time. It's kind of frustrating to see that the WWE writers can do such a great job in their build up to this year's Wrestlemania but also just fall flat on their faces during other times, like now, with plot gaps, illogical turns of events, and convenient forgetfulness.

[Clerk]

Of course it still means soemthing. That's why you have Brock Lesnar as the champion.

[DAMN iNATOR]

Franchise hasn't watched RAW this week yet, or he'd KNOW that they announced Reigns' return will be in December.

[#1-norm-fan]

The world title still means something. They could stand to throw a video package out here and there to remind us is/Lesnar is still in the company but treating the title as a "special attraction" where the champion isn't showing up/wrestling on a weekly basis is the way to go. Then you build up the IC title as the television main event title. Unfortunately they've failed to do that. So... no.

[Rammsteinmad]

The titles stopped meaning anything when we all grew up.

[slik]

The tag belts look bad.

[Fignuts]

lol slik

[rob11]

Nikki Bella is doing pretty well but Paige and AJ are too small compared to past titties like Trish and Torrie Wilson.

[Lock Jaw]

Big E hasn't been doing so well, but maybe this New Day thing will turn him around.

[Shadrick]

I HOWLED laughing at "big titties"

[Razzamajazz]

It's Still REAL To ME Dammit!

[Emperor Smeat]

On their own, nope with Lesnar as the recent example for the WWE title and the IC title in general. Even Sheamus' US title reign didn't help elevate the belt's importance by much.

Past few years, most of the importance has been on who is holding the title than the title itself. WWE gets way more invested in making the title be great when someone like Cena or the Rock is holding it than what was done whenever Orton or Bryan held it. Even Punk's long reign was treated more as a footnote after a while.

[whiteyford]

Have someone take a title and defend it every week, don't acknowledge the fact they're building a streak up let the fans catch on themselves, build it up like RVD and his tv title reign. Or you know just have feuds built around a title again.

[Mr. Nerfect]

The IC Title and US Title are interchangeable, which I feel is a problem. The Miz and Cesaro literally just swap contention roles like it was no biggie. Why does Dolph Ziggler want to be the Intercontinental Champion? Maybe Randy Savage vs. Ricky Steamboat at WrestleMania III was what made him a wrestling fan, and he wants to fight hungry young guys who are looking for that stepping stone to greatness? Don't make it like the X-Division Title, but maybe hint that the guys who challenge for these titles are willing to re-invent their whole style for a bit of glory.

Chris Jericho has such a history with the IC Title. It would make sense for him to come back and try and go for #10. Jericho trying to wrest the title from Luke Harper and overcome the monster could make an endearing story -- one worthy of WrestleMania even. Or perhaps he wants the US Title, since it's the only championship he has never held. I'm liking Rusev more and more, but his title reign feels "tokenistic." Jericho taking the belt off him and completing the modern Grand Slam could be kind of cool.

Randy Orton is in the same boat. A Jericho vs. Orton feud over the US Title would be high-profile, and could lead to a great series of matches, and possibly another awesome Jericho heel turn.

Jack Swagger should be focused on the US Title. He's a Real American isn't he? If he's not going to be a main event guy, he should be fighting in that division. It seems like he is Rusev's next opponenet. I do still have faith in Swagger, and I feel that him making Rusev tap-out would be a great moment. Build the division around him and move Rusev into a different role.

Likewise, Curtis Axel, despite being "boring," made it seem like winning the Intercontinental Title meant something. That should be "his goal." He wants to prove it wasn't a fluke and that he can be just as great an IC Champion as his dad. Don't have him wrestle random US Title matches; he wants the IC Title. Fandango never got the IC Title shot he had to give up when he got concussed (I think he did face Ziggler, actually), but make him obsessed with ticking that box off his list. Each character could have its own preferred championship goal, with only a select few just wanting to grab whatever title they can. I mean, no one would turn down a title, but make the history of it mean something specific to each Superstar.

The Tag Team Titles go in waves, but what has bothered me lately is how the feuds have been so...soft. Gold & Stardust tried to put Jey Uso on the shelf. A few weeks later they are doing a comedy game show segment with JBL. Gold & Stardust should have gone for another heelish belt shot at Hell in a Cell, The Usos should have had it scouted, Goldust could have clocked Cody and The Usos could have won back the titles. This could have lit a fire under Gold & Stardust, who take things to the "next level" in time for Survivor Series. I am a Primo mark, but Los Matadores are so jokey that they just don't connect at all. Have them put the masks on the line against a heel team, lose, and then reveal they are The Crown Princes of Puerto Rico. Re-unite them with Rosa Mendes and turn her into a real valet. They can perhaps work six-man tags with Fandango against The New Day.

Pump the tag division full of teams that matter. R-Truth & Xavier Woods actually had potential, but they never got any development other than they were "friends." How about bringing up that R-Truth got released from his contract, and when everybody doubted him, including himself, Woods took him on as a partner and Truth got re-signed to WWE? All of a sudden there is a relationship people can connect to. The one thing I really love about The Usos is that they want the Tag Titles more than anything. It actually annoys me a little when I see them in US Title Battle Royals or Royal Rumble Matches, because their goal should always be challenging for the Tag Team Titles. I mean, I guess The Hardys even did Rumble appearances, but for the most part, have them go for the Tag Titles. That's their WrestleMania main event.

The Miz is great in the tag division, because he's good but seems to flounder with his own spot. Once he drops the titles and puts over Sandow, maybe he should find a new partner? Why not R-Truth, who has nothing else going on? Pay John Morrison a shit-load of cash to come back for a nostalgia run for six months or so. Tyler Breeze is there, but I do feel like he could be better on his own. But it would kick down the door for Breeze.

AJ Lee vs. Paige could have been the Divas feud. It didn't get the follow-through it could have used immediately, but when AJ came back, they didn't just let her talk like a woman obsessed with being the best; they had to do that shitty "frenemies" thing. What the fuck was that? Why couldn't AJ just return, tell Paige she was psyched out, but she beat herself and now that she's got Paige scouted, the Divas Title is as good as hers. The Paige heel turn kept her from floundering, but she should be the biggest face in the division, with AJ Lee as an awesome antagonist.

I enjoy Nikki Bella's work, and I think a heel Brie is better than a face Brie, but I can just see this going in an "AJ is self-conscious" route, which is fucking stupid. She should just want to kick Nikki Bella's head in because she's everything she hates in a female wrestler.

Emma was called up as a joke, which has ruined her credibility. It's time to save face with her and give her a proper story. They want to feature the Total Divas, so let her and Natalya work a secondary female program. Have Emma beat Nattie on RAW with a roll-up, offer to shake her hand, and have Nattie just walk off. Not a heel turn, but sell the frustration. Tyson mocks her for losing to a joke, and Emma stands up for herself and tells Tyson she's not a joke. Nattie tells Emma not to speak to her husband like that, and it's on. Whoever books the girls in NXT needs to be used for RAW, Main Event and SmackDown, as well.

Have Sasha Banks and Becky Lynch kick down the door. They jump the barricade on RAW and beat the shit out of Alicia Fox and Naomi or something. Banks and Lynch say they are done waiting for a spot, and Fox and Naomi talk about how it showed a disrespect for them and the business.

Give the divisions stories, basically.

[Mr. Nerfect]

I'm not even sure I want Brock Lesnar defending the World Title at WrestleMania. I'm actually thinking it might be cooler if Cena beats Lesnar with help from Brock's WrestleMania opponent (say, Cesaro), and then Bryan wins the Royal Rumble. If not Bryan, maybe Ziggler? Cena vs. Reigns even has more appeal to me than Brock vs. Reigns, which I DO NOT want to see.