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Old 06-08-2015, 03:26 AM   #1
hb2k
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Saving WCW in October 1999

So for this week's podcast we're looking to tackle the commonly held belief that WCW was still salvageable when Vince Russo came along, and as always we're looking to get some feedback from your good selves on this issue.

If the date is October 1st, 1999, what would you have done to try and turn the tide against the WWF? Who are you pushing, who are you not, is there an angle you think could have made a difference? What changes would you make? Or do you think it was beyond repair at that point?

Post your suggestions for what you'd do to "save" WCW, and as always the best ones will be read on the show, and I'll post the link in here this weekend.

So whaddya think?

EDIT - The podcast taking your suggestions on saving WCW in 99 is now available at the following link: http://squaredcirclegazette.podbean....ctober1999.mp3





Crazy Like A Fox - The Definitive Chronicle of Brian Pillman 20 Years Later
**Featuring interviews with members of the Pillman family, Dave Meltzer, Kim Wood, Raven, Jim Cornette, Mark Madden, Shane Douglas, Mark Coleman, Alex Marvez, Les Thatcher and many more close friends and colleagues**
Available on Amazon now:
http://amzn.to/2h93SxL

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Old 06-08-2015, 08:02 AM   #2
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WCW was dead long before October 1999....imo
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Old 06-08-2015, 08:40 AM   #3
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January 1999 was pretty much the end. Eyes were still firmly on the WCW product after Starrcade 1998. Nash and the Wolfpac were ridiculously over and people were interested in seeing where Goldberg went next with the streak gone.

Then the Finger Poke of Doom rendered the ending of the streak completely meaningless and on that same night WWF had Mick win the belt on free TV. That was the night the tide turned and it never went back.

Some would say WCW died even earlier, at Starrcade 1997 or with Goldberg winning the belt on free TV in July 1998...but the Finger Poke of Doom was way worse IMO.
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Old 06-08-2015, 08:59 AM   #4
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In bounds of playing along, I forgot... *which* time was this? Was this post "Powers That Be" Russo that was feuding with Piper, "Millionare's Club vs Young Blood" Russo, or was this "Hogan lays down for Jeff Jarrett" Russo, where they gave the ball to Booker T?

I seriously don't remember, and it's all kind of running together in my head.
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Old 06-08-2015, 09:31 AM   #5
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I don't remember if he was still in the company but start pushing Chris Benoit as the main guy versus Goldberg and have Nash, Sid and Jarrett take a backseat and get more yound guy from indies....
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Old 06-08-2015, 09:45 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Guycott View Post
In bounds of playing along, I forgot... *which* time was this? Was this post "Powers That Be" Russo that was feuding with Piper, "Millionare's Club vs Young Blood" Russo, or was this "Hogan lays down for Jeff Jarrett" Russo, where they gave the ball to Booker T?

I seriously don't remember, and it's all kind of running together in my head.
Start of October 99 is right before Russo came on board with the Powers that Be stuff for the first time. For a frame of reference, Hogan was back in the red and yellow and they were flirting with Sting as a heel.
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Old 06-08-2015, 10:52 AM   #7
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- never hire Vince Russo
- cut ties with big money contracts (Hogan, Nash, Luger, Sid, Bagwell, etc.) that cannot work
- use big money workers who can still work (Sting, Savage, Flair, DDP, Steiner, Hennig, Bret, Bigelow, Goldberg, etc.) to job to young stars
- push guys like Benoit, Saturn, Guerrero, Booker, Misterio, Kidman, Kanyon, Jindrak, O'Haire, Sanders, Awesome, Storm among others
-scrap Thunder and concentrate on a 2-hour Nitro, a 1-hour secondary show of Saturday Night and PPV's every month.
-bring in the castaways from ECW/WWF that are under the age of 30 or who can put together a good match
-wait 5 years and reap the benefits (if any)
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Old 06-08-2015, 10:55 AM   #8
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Moving Nitro to Tuesday nights would be a huge help.

Kinda unrelated: I heard that WCW itself got none of the PPV Revenue and everything went to turner broadcasting?
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Old 06-08-2015, 11:46 AM   #9
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It was beyond repair at that point. You could have rebuilt Goldberg, pushed younger talent etc.... it wouldn't have made a difference. History has shown when Vince has momentum, he's pretty much unstoppable. You're only delaying the death.
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Old 06-08-2015, 11:55 AM   #10
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Quote:
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It was beyond repair at that point. You could have rebuilt Goldberg, pushed younger talent etc.... it wouldn't have made a difference. History has shown when Vince has momentum, he's pretty much unstoppable. You're only delaying the death.
What if WcW repackaged Raven as "Bad News" Raven and had him take out star after star by coming out and saying, "Ayy, I got some BAD NEWS for you" and when the other star says, "What's the bad news?", Raven says, "THIS!" and hits them with a lariat or DDT and then stamps "BAD NEWS" on their forehead as they are struggling on the ground. WCW can then say "Whos going to get the bad news next?".
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Old 06-08-2015, 01:07 PM   #11
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Well if that happened we'd all be watching "The rise and fall of WWF" now.
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Old 06-08-2015, 01:25 PM   #12
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Raven shoulda been given a partier/clubbing dude gimmick. RAVIN' Raven.
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Old 06-08-2015, 01:32 PM   #13
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When I re-watched WCW Greed a while back it reminded me that WCW in its final days was actually not bad at all. Although even if the company had been spared it would have just ended up what TNA wound up becoming.
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Old 06-08-2015, 01:40 PM   #14
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Sell the company to Vince 2 years early. Then it doesn't become an eternal punchline & maybe some of those younger guys can start their careers with the WWF instead.
Ok maybe that's euthanizing it instead of saving it but at least we save the fans from shit like nWo 2000.
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Old 06-08-2015, 02:27 PM   #15
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Sell the company to Vince 2 years early. Then it doesn't become an eternal punchline & maybe some of those younger guys can start their careers with the WWF instead.
Ok maybe that's euthanizing it instead of saving it but at least we save the fans from shit like nWo 2000.
Then Invasion would've just happened 2 years earlier same thing
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Old 06-08-2015, 04:54 PM   #16
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When I re-watched WCW Greed a while back it reminded me that WCW in its final days was actually not bad at all. Although even if the company had been spared it would have just ended up what TNA wound up becoming.
Nitro the final few months was really not bad at all. They sure built Scott Steiner up really well as a monster heel.
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Old 06-08-2015, 05:16 PM   #17
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the worst part about the last days was all the big money being paid to guys sitting at home....
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Old 06-08-2015, 08:06 PM   #18
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Then Invasion would've just happened 2 years earlier same thing
It could have been a lot better two years earlier. Austin wouldn't have been hell-bent on turning face to cure him of being "stale" and the still-hot WWF vs WCW feud might have led to an actual rivalry.

Not that the WWF couldn't still fuck it up, but it wouldn't have been the same thing.
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Old 06-08-2015, 08:07 PM   #19
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Get more hood and ratchet stars like my nigga new jack. #Realest
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Old 06-09-2015, 09:56 AM   #20
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The crippling losses were set before that with bloated guaranteed contracts. It was too late by then. They would have had no chance to make money and stay viable.

And anyways, their product wasn't the reason they closed.

They were watched more at the end than the wwe today. They made huge money still. They just spent more and had huge losses. And then TNT pulled the plug and sold out. They could have been hot then and TNT was still going to cancel nitro.
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Old 06-09-2015, 08:22 PM   #21
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Yeah, I'm not sure if it could have been saved by this point. I guess people who watched were more knowledgeable of the product. But I seem to remember people being quite optimistic about the cruiserweights even around now (and the mid-card divisions and such). I guess Scott Steiner would have made a great choice for a top heel to spotlight. I'm not sure who would have make a great babyface to focus on. How over was Chris Benoit at the time?
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Old 06-10-2015, 02:55 AM   #22
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Benoit had quite a bit of momentum at the time. This was the time of Heel Sting, and Benoit had a match with him on Nitro, and it was more than clear the audience was ready to accept him in the main event mix at that point.

This despite being jobbed clean to Sid at the prior PPV.
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Old 06-11-2015, 05:11 AM   #23
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Quote:
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January 1999 was pretty much the end. Eyes were still firmly on the WCW product after Starrcade 1998. Nash and the Wolfpac were ridiculously over and people were interested in seeing where Goldberg went next with the streak gone.

Then the Finger Poke of Doom rendered the ending of the streak completely meaningless and on that same night WWF had Mick win the belt on free TV. That was the night the tide turned and it never went back.

Some would say WCW died even earlier, at Starrcade 1997 or with Goldberg winning the belt on free TV in July 1998...but the Finger Poke of Doom was way worse IMO.

The Fingerpoke was definitely the beginning of the end for WCW.

With regards to the streak it was a bad move allowing Goldberg to lose at Starrcade given that imo 1998 was his year and he should have been allowed his Starrcade moment and to end 1998 as Champion and perhaps the run should have extended.

However when he was due to lose I'd rather it was to a face so Nash was the only option at the time given he had already beaten Sting and DDP on Nitro and Halloween Havoc respectively. Personally I'd have preferred to have seen Benoit built up and faced Goldberg at the following Starrcade or maybe Bash at the Beach and beaten Goldberg against the odds but sadly nobody in WCW had the brains to figure that one out.

I cut Nash et al slack (as he was the booker at the time) the NWO was one major storyline, Goldberg was shit hot and having him lose the way he did via interference in no way harmed his "invincible" persona.


then again these are the guys that thought having Goldberg beat Hogan for the belt on Nitro was a good idea and decided to overrun Havoc and hence numerous fans missed out on arguably one of WCW's best matches not only of that year but probably of the 90s.
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Old 06-11-2015, 11:46 AM   #24
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when will this podcast be up?
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Old 06-11-2015, 12:06 PM   #25
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While Goldberg losing at Starrcade as he did didn't hault his momentum because he got screwed over, the nWo merger that followed made little sense. I remember the "new Wolfpac" (Hogan, Hall, Nash, Luger, Steiner) cutting a promo after the merger basically saying that they were unified all along and it was all part of a master plan.

So in kayfabe, the nWo felt it would be best to split into 2 different factions and feud with each other for months on end including Hall and Nash having a blood feud...for what? To lull WCW into a false sense of security? Hogan was the champion when the factions split, why the fuck not just stay as one massive group? lol

Obviously, now that I know about the business it was clear they were just trying to get the belt back on Hogan in the most underhanded way possible and, apparently, Hogan wanted to wear red and black because the Wolfpac merch was selling better than the classic nWo stuff. But even as a 10 year old at the time I could tell how non-sensical the storyline was. It was basically WCW saying that everything with the nWo between April 1998 and the merger meant absolutely nothing.
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Old 06-11-2015, 12:10 PM   #26
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Not going to lie, that finger poke of doom made me turn to the WWE and my interest went from WWF THEN WCW. I was a HUGE WCW fan from early 90s to the MNWs. I wanted WCW to be on top because i felt that Bischoff was determined to beat them and i dug that about him and someone like that to run the company.

I dont know HOW these guys thought that finger poke of doom was good for business. You just beat the hottest guy arguably in the business at that time and the next night, you shit on the whole thing by doing that. Something was telling me that some BS was about to go down when i saw Hogan come to the ring in some street gear and not his normal wrestling gear...Man, what a serious waste..it was almost like Vince paid these guys off or something to do this.
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Old 06-11-2015, 12:11 PM   #27
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Also, I've often seen it said that WCW fucked up by having Goldberg win the belt off of Hogan on Nitro. I never really thought it was that egregious tbh...though I might be biased because it was my biggest wrestling markout moment ever as a kid.

The World Title almost never changed hands on TV at that point. It was a treat to see it happen, made you realize that World Title matches on TV aren't a complete given. And the right audience to do it in front of. I'm just not sure I can buy the logic of "you can't ever switch the top belt on TV" when just a few months later the WWF did it and it basically won them the war.
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Old 06-11-2015, 12:15 PM   #28
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Quote:
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Also, I've often seen it said that WCW fucked up by having Goldberg win the belt off of Hogan on Nitro. I never really thought it was that egregious tbh...though I might be biased because it was my biggest wrestling markout moment ever as a kid.

The World Title almost never changed hands on TV at that point. It was a treat to see it happen, made you realize that World Title matches on TV aren't a complete given. And the right audience to do it in front of. I'm just not sure I can buy the logic of "you can't ever switch the top belt on TV" when just a few months later the WWF did it and it basically won them the war.
Exactly.

I understand that there would've been more money made at that specific PPV (maybe a Starrcade bout), but lets be honest, WCW was backed by Turner who figuratively had a blank check for WCW because it was making so much money at the time. This would've benefit WWE more if it was their storyline at the time because its basically Vince's company so it would've been his family's money.
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Old 06-11-2015, 01:30 PM   #29
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I feel if the nWos wanted to merge than the reason for their merge should have been to take out goldberg.

Then nash could say some stip like " If you lose to Goldberg than your out " and have him powerbomb out losers after they lost to Goldberg. This goes on until until he loses and gets the colors ripped off him by who ever is left.
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Old 06-11-2015, 04:03 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vito Cruz View Post
While Goldberg losing at Starrcade as he did didn't hault his momentum because he got screwed over, the nWo merger that followed made little sense. I remember the "new Wolfpac" (Hogan, Hall, Nash, Luger, Steiner) cutting a promo after the merger basically saying that they were unified all along and it was all part of a master plan.

So in kayfabe, the nWo felt it would be best to split into 2 different factions and feud with each other for months on end including Hall and Nash having a blood feud...for what? To lull WCW into a false sense of security? Hogan was the champion when the factions split, why the fuck not just stay as one massive group? lol

Obviously, now that I know about the business it was clear they were just trying to get the belt back on Hogan in the most underhanded way possible and, apparently, Hogan wanted to wear red and black because the Wolfpac merch was selling better than the classic nWo stuff. But even as a 10 year old at the time I could tell how non-sensical the storyline was. It was basically WCW saying that everything with the nWo between April 1998 and the merger meant absolutely nothing.
The issue for me was that it seemed (and Bischoff and Hall in particular come across this way even today) that they just didn't want to let go of the NWO storyline for better or for worse. Sure it was probably one of the most controversial and captivating storylines in pro-wrestling history but it had run its course and no amount of reviving or rehashing the faction was going to do any good.

In hindsight I can understand Bischoff and Nash, Hall, Hogan etc's perspectives in wanting to continue something that was so good and well received but that was part of the problem with WCW: beyond the NWO they had nothing that was memorable or compelling. If anything Crow Sting and Goldberg only succeeded because of the fact they were duelling with the NWO. Without them dare I say it, nobody would have batted an eyelid.


The NWO dominated every major and minor storyline post 1996 till 2000 be it Sting, Goldberg, the stupid thing with three tier cage, Bret Hart, Jeff Jarrett even the LWO which was meant to be a latino parody of the NWO.

One trick pony.
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Old 06-11-2015, 04:11 PM   #31
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when will this podcast be up?
Just finished editing it now, so will be on iTunes tomorrow night and post it on the boards over the weekend most likely.
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Old 06-11-2015, 04:53 PM   #32
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Am I mentioned on the podcast?
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Old 06-14-2015, 07:41 AM   #33
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You are indeed~!

Just wanted to thank everybody for the responses, we got to a good few of them on the show, which is now available to listen to at the following link:

http://squaredcirclegazette.podbean....ctober1999.mp3

We ended up taking a booking meeting approach - cutting the roster and talking pushes, talent, angles and feuds to change the product, evaluating all the issues WCW had at the time and the problems they were facing, as well as taking your suggestions on how to salvage a company spiralling downhill and heading for disaster at a pivotal time, and talking about whether or not it was beyond repair. A very fun show this week, check it out~!
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Old 06-15-2015, 11:28 AM   #34
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Woohoo!
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