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Old 06-15-2015, 04:22 AM   #1
hb2k
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The Trial Of Paul Heyman (Podcast question)
On this week's podcast we're returning to our trial format to talk about a figure held more positively than our previous trials, and debate whether or not Paul Heyman's booking was more detrimental than positive in the long run for professional wrestling, and we're looking for your thoughts on the subject, considering the following elements:

*The human toll his booking created
*ECW's influence on the business in the 90s and beyond (both good and bad)
*ECW's lack of financial success
*Your opinion on his booking throughout his whole career

As always we'll read the best ones on the air and credit you accordingly, so do the positives outweigh the negatives for you or vice versa, and why?

EDIT - The Trial Of Paul Heyman, with your comments included, is now available to listen to at the following link: http://squaredcirclegazette.podbean....PaulHeyman.mp3




Crazy Like A Fox - The Definitive Chronicle of Brian Pillman 20 Years Later
**Featuring interviews with members of the Pillman family, Dave Meltzer, Kim Wood, Raven, Jim Cornette, Mark Madden, Shane Douglas, Mark Coleman, Alex Marvez, Les Thatcher and many more close friends and colleagues**
Available on Amazon now:
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Old 06-15-2015, 04:28 AM   #2
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Old 06-15-2015, 12:13 PM   #3
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I'm on the defence for this one so I'm inclined to agree...but I think if you stretch to ECW's influence being picked up and having a knock on effect to certain negatives that have hit the business since, its interesting to consider.

Perhaps good for fans, bad for the guys is the argument?
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Old 06-15-2015, 12:19 PM   #4
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ECW was a completely breath of fresh air.

we had a booker that didn't insult our intelligence anymore here in the states.

It did do a lot of damage though in the long run to the guys' bodies.

ECW was never the same imo once it got the ppv deal. The company just seemed like a lot of the air went out of it in a few months time.

Paul got burnt out and was just throwing things at the wall to see if they would stick.

I liked ECW because the fans truly felt like part of the show. ECW cared about its fans in a way that no other promotion had ever really done before.
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Old 06-15-2015, 12:21 PM   #5
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I'll reference when he had the book for Smackdown, and say that if you give that man a budget, and a ball to run with, his booking leads to some high intensity, balls to the wall programming. Re watching ECW, it was trash t.v. a lot of the time, but it was mostly dealing with the hand he was dealt, and Paul made something out of nothing.

The toll it took on the bodies is another story, but it was a different time and a different place. To quote Marv from Sin City, "This is blood for blood and by the gallons. These are the old days man, the bad days, the all-or-nothing days."

Business wise, Paul is Paul, and a sheister at best, but generally i'm not expecting anything less or more from someone who has always been quite shady, albeit passionate. I think with a higher end budget, some time and experience, the style could have been toned down, with better wrestlers who can tell a story and not have to murder fuck one another in the ring, and the storylines as they always were when he had the book on Smackdown, would have been more focused and easy to invest in.

Paul Heyman, is not guilty, albeit in need of a stern talking to for some questionable business practices.
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Old 06-15-2015, 12:23 PM   #6
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ECW's influence was just ECW being bastardized. It was a bunch of out of touch bookers trying to emulate something organic. I don't think that can make Paul Heyman himself guilty.
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Old 06-15-2015, 02:14 PM   #7
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Paul's guilty of overspending to try to keep up with megacorporations spending.

WCW lost more in 2000 than ECW made it's entire run.
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Old 06-15-2015, 02:52 PM   #8
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I vote not guilty. I wasn't around for the original ECW days but I did watch during his short tenure as SD! GM and (WW)ECW GM, and for the most part, I found him to be excellent at his positions. He has definitely done more good than harm. I don't know how this is even a question...almost seems like a copycat of JF's "Was the nWo storyline way overrated?" or whatever it's called.

HEY GUYS, EVERYTHING GOOD ABOUT PROFESSIONAL WRESTLING IS OVERRATED!

I mean, seriously. COME THE FUCK ON.
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Old 06-15-2015, 02:53 PM   #9
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Heyman's booking of guys to accentuate their strengths and mask their weaknesses was brilliant and it made a lot of crappy guys come off a lot better than they really should have. Mind blowing why nobody else in creative has ever followed that formula.
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Old 06-15-2015, 03:05 PM   #10
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Any argument for and against should include an objective look at the so called "garbage wrestling" ECW supposedly ushered in. While that is one of the biggest knocks they always get (just short of the "bingo hall" booking meant to be pejorative), it is also the one thing people completely missed the point of and tried to shamelessly emulate.

Both WWE and WCW (and undoubtedly countless lesser promotions) wound up with a "hardcore division" that ended up at some point being little more than "bring a garbage can or shopping cart full of bullshit to the ring to bash people with" matches, and we all know that there was way more to ECW than a New Jack match.
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Old 06-15-2015, 03:22 PM   #11
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Backyard wrestling.
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Old 06-15-2015, 04:07 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruien View Post
Backyard wrestling.
This would be the biggest boon to the prosecution. Overall, I think the defense has it really easy, but backyard could be their kryptonite.

WWE and WCW glorifying the garbage side of ECW led to countless kids on trampolines who would never be in the sort of shape or have the sort of skill required to be a wrestler, but dammit, they could sure hit each other with shit and make each other bleed.

As mentioned above, Heyman can't really be to blame for this, as it was people who didn't understand what he was doing that wound up ruining the product, but there is a direct through-line from New Jack to backyards that an intrepid prosecutor could exploit.
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Old 06-15-2015, 04:28 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DAMN iNATOR View Post
I vote not guilty. I wasn't around for the original ECW days but I did watch during his short tenure as SD! GM and (WW)ECW GM, and for the most part, I found him to be excellent at his positions. He has definitely done more good than harm. I don't know how this is even a question...almost seems like a copycat of JF's "Was the nWo storyline way overrated?" or whatever it's called.

HEY GUYS, EVERYTHING GOOD ABOUT PROFESSIONAL WRESTLING IS OVERRATED!

I mean, seriously. COME THE FUCK ON.
Hey, I'm with you. I'm curious as to how the prosecution side may tie in elements like ECW influencing Attitude, who in turn ran sponsors away, hurt the perception of wrestling and made TV stations pull back on wrestling at a key time because of the stigma. I still think it's a stretch, but that's where it might go...
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Old 06-21-2015, 07:00 AM   #14
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I want to thank everyone for the responses in this thread, we got to read a good few of them on the show, which is now available to listen to at the following link:

http://squaredcirclegazette.podbean....PaulHeyman.mp3

The Heyman Trial has occured, as both prosecution and defence debate the hardcore style, the human toll, drugs, ECW's influence on WWF Attitude and impact on the Monday Night War, just how key they really were to the stars that got signed by the Big Two, his role booking Smackdown, eye for talent and much more in an effort to convince our neutral judge, and of course reading your statements on Paul E as well. Will he be found guilty? These shows are always fun, check it out and let us know what you think~!
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Old 06-21-2015, 07:41 AM   #15
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I like the production of the podcast, overall it's very good. I wish you had funnier accents though. So, in the next one can you all talk like Dick Van Dyke in Mary Poppins with his excellent cockney accent? Please? Also, I don't think you've ever mentioned a comment by me on your show. This makes me a sad panda
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Old 06-21-2015, 08:14 AM   #16
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Thanks for the nice words on the production, and I'll look into the cockney accents thing and see what we can do...

I will say that you may have missed the shows when we mentioned your feedback, but we most definitely have, as I remember saying your username a few times...
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