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Old 10-20-2014, 03:32 AM   #1
hb2k
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Was the Invasion always destined to fail?
This week's podcast is going be a little different, as we are going to do a timeline of the Invasion angle - from the WCW purchase to the bitter end at Survivor Series, with the addition of notes from Dave Meltzer and Bryan Alverez's newsletters from 2001 of what was going on behind the scenes on a week to week basis, and I think it will be a very interesting show to see the breakdown. I'm looking to get some of your opinions to chime in throughout the show, and as always feedback will be credited to your fine selves on the air, So, I'd like your thoughts on:

a) What were you thinking/hoping for when the purchase was announced?

b) What was the moment the angle died for you?

c) What was your personal high point, if any?




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Old 10-20-2014, 04:42 AM   #2
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A) I was hoping for Smackdown to become a WCW program. It would have been similar to the Raw Vs. Smackdown brand split that they did the year after. I think it would have worked. You didn't have to call the show anything other than Smackdown and I wouldn't have it changed to Nitro. The show would just have WCW superstars and then there would be interactions from WWE guys on PPVs on occasion. There would be WCW House Shows, merchandise and everything that they did during the Brand Extension.

B) Booker T Vs. Buff Bagwell for the WCW Title. The angle was hot and then it was dead just like that. The fact that they had no knowledge of WCW TV to put a mid-card guy at best as a potiental champion was insane. They had DDP and he and Booker had good chemistry. They could have tore the house down and made the invasion start on the right foot. DDP should have never been the stalker either.

C) It ended.
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Old 10-20-2014, 10:31 AM   #3
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STD is on the money with using the brand split to re brand/revive WCW. I always felt that was the best option, and as the bigger stars' contracts expired and could be resigned, you could have had them on Smackdown slowly building talent and then ran a proper invasion angle.
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Old 10-20-2014, 12:34 PM   #4
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The biggest stars they brought over were DDP and Booker, if they weren't prepared to shell out to secure the bigger names it was always going to look second rate. Add to that the Alliance never really looked dominant, even after they added Austin, there's been enough invasion angles in recent memory that they should of known better.
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Old 10-20-2014, 12:54 PM   #5
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DDP and Booker T would have been big enough stars to lead the change with RVD. They could have made Tazz or Rhyno into a big deal too. The problem is DDP was booked to look like crap. I think the major issue was there was no big guy to match up with Undertaker and Kane. The Big Show should have went to the alliance to counter that threat. Test could have stayed WWF with Big Show taking his place as Shane's guy when he bought the company. It always looked lopsided because the WWF was crushing WCW for the most part on a nightly basis.
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Old 10-20-2014, 01:00 PM   #6
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With the inherited WCW roster as it was in 2001, it was never going to be successful. As mentioned the best way to do it was to just have WCW be on SmackDown. Eventually once they get Flair, nWo, Mysterio, Steiner, Goldberg, etc. into the fold, then you launch the angle at some point in 2003 and run it right to a landmark event in WrestleMania 20. Once it ends, WWE goes to Raw and SmackDown as they have it now.

Then again I'm not convinced Vince thinks there was much of a missed opportunity. He wanted to make WCW look terrible and remind everybody that WWF crushed them. To this day he likes reminding people. There's a reason that Shane McMahon buying WCW was listed as like the #2 moment in Nitro history on a recent WWE.com article.
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Old 10-20-2014, 01:03 PM   #7
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it should have been head and shoulders the absolute biggest thing by far in the history of pro wrestling, basically a license to print money and it wasn't even close. That says everything. They were never realistically going to get Steiner, Goldberg, Nash etc because they were being paid stupid amounts of money/larger guarantees I dare say than the top WWE guys to sit at home and offering them the kind of money needed to get them on the road would have seriously rocked the boat and probably wouldn't have been worth it. But had they presented the names and talent that they did have to be legitimate threats, people would have bought into it without a doubt. But they never really did and paid the ultimate price for it.
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Old 10-20-2014, 01:11 PM   #8
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Honestly I'm glad I was only 12 when the Invasion went on. I was raised on WCW and had a natural bias towards them, but at my age I had really no concept of the business and credible storytelling yet. Had I realized just how poorly WCW was presented, the angle would have totally infuriated me.
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Old 10-20-2014, 05:02 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hb2k View Post

a) What were you thinking/hoping for when the purchase was announced?

b) What was the moment the angle died for you?

c) What was your personal high point, if any?
A) Lots of "dream" crossover matches and feuds occurring.

B) Near the end when it started to become clear that outside of DDP and Booker, none of the other big WCW names were going to show up.

C) RVD being mega-over with the crowd even though he was part of the "enemy" side
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Old 10-20-2014, 05:14 PM   #10
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I would've never made ECW and WCW into one alliance.

Heyman and ECW hated WCW. Why would that ever make sense to work alongside them.

I would've enjoyed seeing this WCW in this promo.

Quote:
Never before seen promo produced by WWE right after the purchase of WCW, when they planned to keep WCW existing as its own separate entity. Rumored names for the WCW program that WWE was considering were: WCW Saturday Nitro, WCW Uprising, WCW Primal Urge, WCW Late Night Appetite, WCW Hot Box, and WCW Hard-On Saturday Night. Plans changed, and the Invasion angle went forward instead.
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Old 10-20-2014, 05:41 PM   #11
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It happened about two years too late. WCW was a shell of its former self and had lost just about all of its Monday Night War momentum by the time it was bought.

I also don't think the WCW and WWF rosters were that compatible to begin with. People talk about all the dream matches that could have come out of it, but what really could they have done? Lex Luger vs Mankind? Maybe it could have worked, but they were two completely different companies and the WWF was way ahead of WCW when the Attitude Era was at its peak. Most of the good WCW wrestlers were already in the WWF by that point anyway, and the ones who were successful afterward post-buy out like Booker T adapted on their own terms despite the WCW/Invasion stuff.
Last edited by DrA; 10-20-2014 at 08:31 PM.
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Old 10-20-2014, 06:46 PM   #12
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What are you doing here?
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Old 10-20-2014, 07:04 PM   #13
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Dream thread: Casual forum's DrA replies to wrestling forum's hb2k.
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Old 10-20-2014, 07:06 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by DrA View Post
Dream thread: Casual forum's DrA replies to wrestling forum's hb2k.
Looks like the dream just came true!
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Old 10-20-2014, 07:12 PM   #15
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You got Rock vs. Hogan, Rock vs. Goldberg, Hogan vs. Shawn Michaels, Hogan vs. Undertaker, Goldberg vs. Brock Lesnar, Austin vs. Scott Hall, Undertaker vs. Diamond Dallas Page, Triple H vs. Scott Steiner, Kevin Nash vs. Triple H, Ric Flair vs. Shawn Michaels out of it eventually, how many more dream matches do you guys need
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Old 10-20-2014, 07:19 PM   #16
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Didn't like Brock v. Goldberg @ WM XX at all except for Austin stunning them both post-match. Just kinda felt forced and not built up to well at all.

Those other matches were all pretty sweet though.
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Old 10-20-2014, 10:44 PM   #17
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1. I was shocked to say the least, since I was one of the few WCW fans. Probably the biggest OMFG wrestling moment of my life.

2. It died when Steph was revealed to have bought ECW. It turned into another McMahon family focused angle.

3. When the ECW wrestlers attacked Jericho and Kane on Raw. I was so jacked to see RVD and Dreamer that I didn't put two and two together right away and realize what was going on.
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Old 10-21-2014, 01:34 AM   #18
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a) What were you thinking/hoping for when the purchase was announced?

I was honestly hoping for specific storylines with specific wrestlers from each company leading towards a one-off match on Pay Per View. WCW Wrestler comes in to take a shot at a specific WWF wrestler or WWF wrestler takes a shot at them. Build storyline on RAW & Smack Down! for a month or two which leads to the Pay Per View and the selling point being HERES YOUR FAVOURITE/DISLIKED WCW GUY FIGHTING A WWF GUY! BOOM! Match. Outcome. Then if successful and the money and dynamics were there a possible integration of said WCW wrestler into the WWE fold down the line.

Que the next WCW main eventer for the next months PPV against a favourable WWF opponent.

But the only two semi credible WCW main eventers (and you could make an argument that they were not the BIG BOYS of WCW) the WWE could afford were Booker T and Diamond Dallas Page. Everyone else was locked up until 2002 or beyond in some cases.

Seriously, the WWF showed up with Booker T, Diamond Dallas Page, Buff Bagwell and Lance Storm as WCW's contingent when fans were expecting Hogan, Sting, Goldberg, Nash, Flair, Savage, Steiner, Hall, Sid, Bret Hart, Luger, and on.

b) What was the moment the angle died for you?

The "WCW Invasion" moment had to have died during the Booker T vs Buff Bagwell match. I don't know how you could argue that it didn't.

The WWE tried to plug this with the insertion of ECW but then killed that the moment ECW and WCW merged. I still remember the Raw where RVD and Dreamer jumped the rails and formed ECW... it was around 9 o clock and it was F'N AWESOME... an hour later at 11 o clock when ECW joined with WCW it was worse than, "CENA WINS!"

c) What was your personal high point, if any?

Rob Van Dam. RVD at his peak being able to do hardcore championship matches against Test, Tajiri, Matt Hardy, Jeff Hardy, Chris Jericho, The Rock or ANYONE really and have the match of the night. My interest really peaked when Rob Van Dam picked up a roll-up win against Stone Cold Steve Austin leading up to the No Mercy PPV with RVD bucking Austin's authority and control that the crowd was totally digging. Then he was thrown into a shitty triple threat with Austin and Angle at No Mercy 2001 where RVD was jobbed out and the ENTIRE angle died a month later at Survivor Series.
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Old 10-21-2014, 01:37 AM   #19
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Old 10-21-2014, 01:48 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hb2k View Post
a) What were you thinking/hoping for when the purchase was announced?
The eventual introduction of the likes of Sting and Flair into the mix, and the eventual arrival of the nWo, causing the WWF and WCW to join forces.

b) What was the moment the angle died for you?[/QUOTE]

The angle died for me when it ended. It wasn't until it had been over for a few months that I looked back and said "well that really could have been a lot better."

c) What was your personal high point, if any?[/QUOTE]

Freddie Blassie standing up from his wheelchair to cheer on Team WWF & Austin hitting the ring after beating up everyone backstage. (That may have been Austin's last greatest pop as an active wrestler.)

The entire angle was only destined to fail when "WCW" consisted of WCW's B-team. When you had Austin, the Undertaker and the Rock as the WWF's biggest stars vs Booker T and DDP as WCW's biggest stars, you were never going to have a viable "WCW Invasion" storyline.
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Old 10-21-2014, 02:12 AM   #21
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On the Guest Booker Series Vince Russo had a very interesting way of booking the invasion angel - start with the nWo coming in just as they did when they "invaded" wCW.

The angle was destined to fail because WWE didm;t want to make wow seem strong at all. Vince forgot that he now owned the property.
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Old 10-21-2014, 06:20 PM   #22
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It was destined to fail because Vince was never going to allow WCW guys to look superior to his WWE guys. That's why the "big player" of Team Invasion was Stone Cold Steve Austin. The few victories that the Invasion picked up never really meant anything and none of them came out looking like stars, with the exception of RVD, mostly due to his own charisma and impressive work rate.

They could have really made the Invasion work with the guys they had if they had wanted to do so. They just had to treat the WCW guys they had as major stars. If DDP's first appearance on a WWF program had been built up as a major moment - with video packages and hype and a middle of the show booking spot and massive pyro and his classic "Self High-Five" music, you would've had an instant main event star on your hands. Instead he showed up out of nowhere for a hit against Undertaker as a sexually driven stalker. The same went for Booker T. His first appearance on the show could've been made into a big deal with a lot of build up - the first time EVER for the WCW Champion to appear on a WWF program. Instead, he does a hit and run on Austin at King of the Ring. Like a punk ass bitch. Because that's what the Invasion team was made to look like. Punks.
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Old 10-21-2014, 06:53 PM   #23
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It was destined to fail because Vince was never going to allow WCW guys to look superior to his WWE guys. That's why the "big player" of Team Invasion was Stone Cold Steve Austin. The few victories that the Invasion picked up never really meant anything and none of them came out looking like stars, with the exception of RVD, mostly due to his own charisma and impressive work rate.

They could have really made the Invasion work with the guys they had if they had wanted to do so. They just had to treat the WCW guys they had as major stars. If DDP's first appearance on a WWF program had been built up as a major moment - with video packages and hype and a middle of the show booking spot and massive pyro and his classic "Self High-Five" music, you would've had an instant main event star on your hands. Instead he showed up out of nowhere for a hit against Undertaker as a sexually driven stalker. The same went for Booker T. His first appearance on the show could've been made into a big deal with a lot of build up - the first time EVER for the WCW Champion to appear on a WWF program. Instead, he does a hit and run on Austin at King of the Ring. Like a punk ass bitch. Because that's what the Invasion team was made to look like. Punks.
yeah that was the worst part he owned the whole show, he could have made all the wrestlers look good, but instead he destroyed wcw only for the wwf taking over by the pandas so we are stuck with the wwe. like i said at the time wcw should have won the invasion
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Old 10-23-2014, 02:17 PM   #24
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a) What were you thinking/hoping for when the purchase was announced?

Dream matches, crossover shows, WCW as a brand and have their own shows and the promotion to carry on.

b) What was the moment the angle died for you?

The time WWE buried most of the WCW talent and making them look weak to the WWE stars.

c) What was your personal high point, if any?

Freddie Blassie's speech, Paul Heyman's classic promo on Vince McMahon and Kurt Angle milking the Alliance.
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Old 10-23-2014, 02:23 PM   #25
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A bit off-topic here, but the Survivor Series match that ended this angle is a hugely underrated match.
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Old 10-25-2014, 02:38 AM   #26
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I was a mark at the time, but even I realised that the WCW guys were being made to look like chumps for no reason. The crowds wanted to cheer Booker T and Diamond Dallas Page. With The Rock leaving for months to film The Scorpion King or whatever it was, it would have made perfect sense to slip them in as major babyface stars.

Lance Storm was never a main eventer in WCW, but you could have used him as a solid hand in the mid-card or tag division. I think audiences would have loved seeing The Impact Players mix it up with Edge & Christian, The Hardyz and The Dudleyz. You had these cruiserweights come in which could have livened up shows.
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Old 10-25-2014, 08:06 AM   #27
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I was a mark at the time, but even I realised that the WCW guys were being made to look like chumps for no reason. The crowds wanted to cheer Booker T and Diamond Dallas Page. With The Rock leaving for months to film The Scorpion King or whatever it was, it would have made perfect sense to slip them in as major babyface stars.

Lance Storm was never a main eventer in WCW, but you could have used him as a solid hand in the mid-card or tag division. I think audiences would have loved seeing The Impact Players mix it up with Edge & Christian, The Hardyz and The Dudleyz. You had these cruiserweights come in which could have livened up shows.
90 percent of the people in the Invasion army were chumps to begin with. If they weren't chumps they would have had Turner contracts. Making them look good for no reason wouldn't make sense either.
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Old 10-25-2014, 08:33 AM   #28
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You wouldn't be making them look good for no reason, you'd be making them look good to come across as a legit threat to the WWE guys and thus create more interest in the angle/more Buyrates/ more money.
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Old 10-25-2014, 12:19 PM   #29
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Quote:
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You got Rock vs. Hogan, Rock vs. Goldberg, Hogan vs. Shawn Michaels, Hogan vs. Undertaker, Goldberg vs. Brock Lesnar, Austin vs. Scott Hall, Undertaker vs. Diamond Dallas Page, Triple H vs. Scott Steiner, Kevin Nash vs. Triple H, Ric Flair vs. Shawn Michaels out of it eventually, how many more dream matches do you guys need
Key word being "eventually."

All but one of those matches came well after the invasion angle had ended. Flair, Goldberg, Steiner, and the nWo were brought in independently, with no ties to the invasion story.
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Old 10-25-2014, 12:51 PM   #30
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A bit off-topic here, but the Survivor Series match that ended this angle is a hugely underrated match.
This is true. Whatever else it was or wasn't it was masterful storytelling, and paying off the Vince's promise that someone was going to turn against the Alliance with Angle taking out Austin was great. If you look back on Kurt's elimination in that match he taps out way too fast and Heyman is noticably bewildered by it.
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Old 10-25-2014, 12:51 PM   #31
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I watched that match not long ago and I was kind of startled by how much Paul has aged.
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Old 10-25-2014, 02:07 PM   #32
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They also screwed up making Kurt Angle the next super baby face of the company during the Invasion. He was SOOOO over for awhile.
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Old 10-25-2014, 02:11 PM   #33
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Yeah he came the closest to actually making a heel out of Austin during the Invasion.
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Old 10-26-2014, 06:49 AM   #34
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I want to thank everybody for the answers and comments - the show is now online to listen to, as the panel discuss, from start to finish, the entire Invasion angle. Including inside notes from the Observer and Figure Four Weekly Newsletters from 2001, breaking down how the biggest potential angle of all time fell apart, week by week. And of course, your feedback on expectations, high points, and the moment it died for you. Check it out, and as always, let us know what you think...

http://squaredcirclegazette.podbean....omedToFail.mp3
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Old 10-26-2014, 08:52 AM   #35
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Did you talk about them fucking up Kurt Angle's baby face push?
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Old 10-26-2014, 04:54 PM   #36
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was watching some Invasion era PPV's and a Raw the other day on the Network and the content really wasn't that bad. Much more entertaining to me then what's being put on TV today. It's just that we wanted so much more to come from it and deservingly so. But now that's it's been over 10 years, it's actually enjoyable to go back and watch. I can't wait until they add more Raw's from 2001 on there
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Old 11-01-2014, 01:35 AM   #37
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All invasion angles everywhere are going to fail for one reason.

Company A loves being Company A. In the end, no matter how big and awesome Company B is, Company A is Company A and will make Company B look terrible in the end.
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Old 11-01-2014, 03:40 AM   #38
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All invasion angles everywhere are going to fail for one reason.

Company A loves being Company A. In the end, no matter how big and awesome Company B is, Company A is Company A and will make Company B look terrible in the end.
Back to the first match... Booker vs Bagwell. Wasn't it originally supposed to be Booker vs Lance Storm? Would've changed the complexion of the entire match (and possibly perception of this being able to work). The only reason Buff supposedly got the nod was how "over" he was. Though he did fit as being the "look, I'm with YOU guys!" buffoon thrown out of the building, that image is what Vince already determined to do with wCw to begin with.

And that's the real shame. They could have brand split. They could have folded the existing roster in down the card in natural spots. They could have had them "hijack" the show and put on a Nitro while keeping WWE guys locked in a meeting room or something... lots of avenues. But in the end, they were made to look sub par and a not real threat to WWE.

Hell, even the ECW portion of the angle *started* awesome. Looked like maybe they were going to be a third side to this gang war: Heyman's loyal band of lunatics. Then the writing was on the wall there when they made the "alliance". All sub par guys going against the almighty WWE.

You know that moment where Brock beat the streak- where the sure thing didn't fucking happen? Imagine the weight of the moment if WCW were allowed to win. Would've boosted the stock of those guys, I'd say.
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