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Old 05-29-2007, 06:20 PM   #281
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What I hate about it is that they looked like they were going to handle Venom the best way, whereby they included and mentioned about Jameson's son being an astronaught in 1. Then left 2 blank. Then in 3 they shoulda just had him bring back Promethium X or whatever to Earth and get involved with Peter in 3, then hint at it totally at the end for a full blown 4th Venom filled film.

And I put it to you KK, and the rest of this cur-sed board, that after 3, its popularity, with die-hard fans esp wouldve decreased.
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Old 05-29-2007, 08:52 PM   #282
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Kano
And I put it to you KK, and the rest of this cur-sed board, that after 3, its popularity, with die-hard fans esp wouldve decreased.
Well, except this is the best wselling movie of all times. I seriously doubt its popularity will decrease.
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Old 05-30-2007, 02:11 AM   #283
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Originally Posted by Jon Kano
And I put it to you KK, and the rest of this cur-sed board, that after 3, its popularity, with die-hard fans esp wouldve decreased.
It popularity isn't gonna decrease based on emo shit/deviation from the comics. That's what has made it mainstream. Comic fan quarrels does not = mainstream audience disenchantment. If and when Spidey4 comes out, it will be successful or a failure based on what it does on it's own. As with any franchise there will be a slight dropoff as time goes on, but its still a box office powerhouse and it's credibility hasn't been tarnished yet.

Whether or not Tobey returns is a big factor as well. The mainstream crowd won't care if Raimi directs or not until after the fact. (take for instance X3, aside from hardcore fans not many people were aware or turned off by Singer not returning). Same with Batman Forever.
But as for the big chunk of fans, they're still there. And as for the small amount of disgruntled comic/spidey fans, they're gonna be there at midnight or opening day either way, probably myself included.
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Old 05-30-2007, 03:18 AM   #284
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Originally Posted by Kane Knight
Well, except this is the best wselling movie of all times. I seriously doubt its popularity will decrease.
So was Titanic but I think the majority who saw it has the opinion that is sucked ass.
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Old 05-30-2007, 03:26 AM   #285
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not really. And it's not like Titanic was a franchise
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Old 05-30-2007, 03:45 AM   #286
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Yeah well thats my whole point really, the power of one seemingly successful film. I'm not debating whether the franchise will continue because it probably will with all the money its made, hell I still have faith and hope it does. But what I'm saying is, THIS is the movie where the feedback from the die-hard fans will count most when the writers, producers, directors and actors look towards correcting mistakes and improving 'the franchise'.

You can't deny that out of all the 3, this is the one that needs to be most learned from. Thats essentially all I am saying.

And are you kidding me, not once have I met someone who actually liked Titanic. And that includes females. Seriously.
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Old 05-30-2007, 03:48 AM   #287
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^ this post sucks on so many levels
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Old 05-30-2007, 03:53 AM   #288
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That reply, without substance or explanation/reasoning is invalid. And lol you most certainly have one of the worst names I've ever seen at TPWW. No offence.
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Old 05-30-2007, 09:24 AM   #289
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Kano
Yeah well thats my whole point really, the power of one seemingly successful film. I'm not debating whether the franchise will continue because it probably will with all the money its made, hell I still have faith and hope it does. But what I'm saying is, THIS is the movie where the feedback from the die-hard fans will count most when the writers, producers, directors and actors look towards correcting mistakes and improving 'the franchise'.

You can't deny that out of all the 3, this is the one that needs to be most learned from. Thats essentially all I am saying.

And are you kidding me, not once have I met someone who actually liked Titanic. And that includes females. Seriously.
Ummm...Howabout no?

The Die-Hard fans never count, unless you're going for a cult base. And then, this is a Blockbuster, so the mainstream is what matters.

I'm not sure what needs to be learned. You've yet to actually explain what was wrong with the movie. Most people, even the ones nitpicking, seem to be satisfied.
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Old 05-30-2007, 12:09 PM   #290
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I liked Titanic. People seemed to hate it after it sweeped award shows.
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Old 05-30-2007, 03:19 PM   #291
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Kano
That reply, without substance or explanation/reasoning is invalid. And lol you most certainly have one of the worst names I've ever seen at TPWW. No offence.
nun tayken
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Old 05-30-2007, 03:38 PM   #292
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kane Knight
Ummm...Howabout no?

The Die-Hard fans never count, unless you're going for a cult base. And then, this is a Blockbuster, so the mainstream is what matters.

I'm not sure what needs to be learned. You've yet to actually explain what was wrong with the movie. Most people, even the ones nitpicking, seem to be satisfied.
I really don't even want to waste time and effort in going into this but heres a quick list:

- too many villains; shoulda kept Venom smaller for bigger presence in next film.

- too much soap opera type shit; relationships, betrayals, feelings, pointless character arcs.

- too many short-cuts; Brock turning up and just saying 'oh yeah and im dating your daughter', the butler telling Harry about the wounds when saying that woulda saved a lot of trouble, the whole end scene with Sandman.

- Let downs; Spiderman teaming with Goblin, him forgiving Sandman, the whole casting and handling of Venom.

- Out-right atrocious shit; emo peter parker, swaggering like a twat down the street, the whole Jazz scene, Danny Elfman not scoring.

It just basically felt everything was progressing too fast, and too much was crammed into one film and changing all the time that film coulda easily been made into two....Harry and Peter are enemies, then mates, then enemies, then mates again....then you got Sandman, 'oh yeah, lets have a villain with a heart, make him misunderstood, he's not a bad guy, just unlucky.'

The whole film he fights Spiderman when he HAS to, he doesnt ever go lookin for him, he just wants to make his way and see his daughter....then a crap one minute begging sesh from Venom is all it takes for him to think, 'right I dont actually NEED to have a final battle with Spidey...it doesnt make much sense or match up to my character goals....what the hell its Hollywood I'll do it...' So he has a climactic battle to kill Spiderman, then 'suddenly' he's all remorseful and weeping like a bitch....yeah that just made me wanna shove my ticket down the usher's throat.



Alls I am saying is that the 3rd one was the worst of the three. And Sony, Raimi and more importantly Stan Lee will know this and take listen more to what the fans, die hard or not have to say.....you do realise not all die-hard fans and not all mainstreamers will think it was good or bad, it will be mixed, it makes no difference I agree.
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Old 05-30-2007, 03:39 PM   #293
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Jon Kano has spoken, bitches.
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Old 05-30-2007, 05:15 PM   #294
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p.s. Those things weren't shortcuts at all.
And Sandman didn't just randomly decide to fight Spiderman. He decided to get revenge on him for killing him. That's what the point of him coming out of the mud and going looking for Spidey was. He was sick of him getting in his way. That's why he attacked Venom, he was looking for Spidey. Thats why he WANTED to get Spidey instead of just getting him when he HAD to as you observed.

In case you didnt notice, all of the problems Parker had to deal with at the end were a result of the black suit. Sandman wanted him dead because the black suit Spidey sank to the level of killing him. Brock wanted him dead because the black suit Parker cost him his career, dream/life and stole his girlfriend. The black suit itself wanted Spidey dead for rejecting him. And the black suit Spidey had left Harry Osborne for dead, this was his only hope but he came through anyways. Had he not came to help Spidey, the black suit would have been the cause of that and Parker would have died. The suit even cost Parker Mary Jane in a lot of ways, and she was all he had left to fight for.
There was one main enemy, and that was Parker himself and the black suit. All the other characters were causes and effects.
There weren't too many villians. Goblin was a pre-existing character, the dynamic between him and Parker just changed. Sandman was used to move the plot in the first act, and Venom was used to up the stakes along with Sandman in the second.
The suit itself was the main protagonist, and Parkers alter ego.
That was the style of the story.



A lot did go on, but they were treating this as a grand finale. It wasn't that bloated. It did have a lot of substance, maybe a tad too much. A few executions were a little off. I didn't like how Sandmans origin was just random and sudden. But it was hardly a bad movie. It was actually a very good one, and the pacing was fine. Gripes with "emo shit" and "making Venom a pussy" aren't founded as flaws, they're just personal opinions.

-"too many relationships, feelings and betrayals" Oh yea, this is a comic book movie.
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Old 05-30-2007, 05:37 PM   #295
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Those things weren't shortcuts at all. - Yes, yes they were.



And Sandman didn't just randomly decide to fight Spiderman. He decided to get revenge on him for killing him. That's what the point of him coming out of the mud and going looking for Spidey was. He was sick of him getting in his way. That's why he attacked Venom, he was looking for Spidey. Thats why he WANTED to get Spidey instead of just getting him when he HAD to as you observed.
---- Yeah whatever, but the dialogue, and the way in which it was all presented was in such a way that it appeared rushed, and as if the motives for each characters actions changed so easily without any emotion or portrayal of emotion. The idea was there, but executed very badly.



Brock wanted him dead because the black suit Parker cost him his career, dream/life and stole his girlfriend.
------ Black suit Brock wanted and wouldve killed him. Brock wanted him dead the day it happened, so would I if I were him. But you really think he (Brock as a human) woulda done anything? he goes to a church and asks god to do it for Christ's sake, how retarded can you get?




The black suit itself wanted Spidey dead for rejecting him.
----------- I remember reading one of the comics saying the black suite would always want to BOND with Parker because Parker's spider/superhuman gifts would make the symbiote more powerful than just an average human.



There was one main enemy, and that was Parker himself and the black suit. All the other characters were causes and effects.
---------- Yeah thats true, but if you are just going to basically class each character as a hero or villain, there would be 4. Way too much for one superhero film against one hero. Period.




There weren't too many villians. ---------- Yes there were. See above.



Goblin was a pre-existing character. --------- This is NEW GOBLIN. New look, new handler, new character.




A lot did go on, but they were treating this as a grand finale.
--------- Sony has always stated they intended to make 6 films. So thats wrong right there.




It wasn't that bloated. It did have a lot of substance, maybe a tad too much. A few executions were a little off. I didn't like how Sandmans origin was just random and sudden. But it was hardly a bad movie. It was actually a very good one, and the pacing was fine. Gripes with "emo shit" and "making Venom a pussy" aren't founded as flaws, they're just personal opinions.
---------------- Yeah ok fair enough I guess I did have too much of a personal opinion as to how the movie was gonna be. But my point still stands, and you have to agree or disagree....was this the worst Spidy movie of the three? I'm betting the majority say yes. And thats mainly what I am getting at, when in reality, it shouldve been the best. And thats realistically and in my opinion.




"too many relationships, feelings and betrayals" Oh yea, this is a comic book movie.
------------ I understand these aspects are vital to the superhero genre. But look at what I typed... TOO MANY.
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Old 05-30-2007, 05:37 PM   #296
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Kano
- too many villains; shoulda kept Venom smaller for bigger presence in next film.
There aren't too many villains. There aren't too many bad guys.

You can argue they should have left Venom out, but that's relatively separate.

Quote:
too much soap opera type shit; relationships, betrayals, feelings, pointless character arcs.
I can't think of any pointless character arcs. Even Gwen is in there fror a reason. Namely, so Spider-Man can, in emo state, go screw with MJ and Brock at the same time.

Aside from that, it's no different than the other two movies.

Quote:
too many short-cuts; Brock turning up and just saying 'oh yeah and im dating your daughter', the butler telling Harry about the wounds when saying that woulda saved a lot of trouble, the whole end scene with Sandman.
Of those three, the one where the Butler interjects is the only real shortcut. Even then, there could be a decent reason why he only pointed it out then. In fact, knowing what was on the line might've spurred him to speak, despite a tradition of silence that predated Harry.

Quote:
Let downs; Spiderman teaming with Goblin, him forgiving Sandman, the whole casting and handling of Venom.
Spidey Teaming with Goblin was awesome.

Quote:
Out-right atrocious shit; emo peter parker, swaggering like a twat down the street, the whole Jazz scene, Danny Elfman not scoring.
Parker's been emo since the first movie.

Elfman not scoring sucks, but is far from attrocious.

Quote:
It just basically felt everything was progressing too fast, and too much was crammed into one film and changing all the time that film coulda easily been made into two....Harry and Peter are enemies, then mates, then enemies, then mates again....then you got Sandman, 'oh yeah, lets have a villain with a heart, make him misunderstood, he's not a bad guy, just unlucky.'
So far, the villains are all victims.

Norman Osbourne, who was the victim of failure, and his own hubris.

Otto Octavius, who was the victim of evil mind controlling sentient tentacles.

Harry, a victim of his own perception, and consuming anger. And he's not even strictly a villain.

Flint, who can't catch a break in life.

Brock, who like Norman kind of brings it on himself, but again, is ruined by Spider-Man, has everything taken from him.

You happen to wait until the third movie to complain about that, and pick one of the characters who was usually portrayed as a sympathetic character to complain about it?

Quote:
The whole film he fights Spiderman when he HAS to, he doesnt ever go lookin for him, he just wants to make his way and see his daughter....then a crap one minute begging sesh from Venom is all it takes for him to think, 'right I dont actually NEED to have a final battle with Spidey...it doesnt make much sense or match up to my character goals....what the hell its Hollywood I'll do it...' So he has a climactic battle to kill Spiderman, then 'suddenly' he's all remorseful and weeping like a bitch....yeah that just made me wanna shove my ticket down the usher's throat.
Nope. He had a damn good reason, and was clearly pissed about Spider-Man, since he kinda...Killed him. or left him for dead, thinking he had killed him.

Quote:
Alls I am saying is that the 3rd one was the worst of the three.
I think you're wrong. I think most of your gripes are either petty, odd considering they take place in all three movies, or don't make sense.
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Old 05-30-2007, 05:40 PM   #297
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Black suit Brock wanted and wouldve killed him. Brock wanted him dead the day it happened, so would I if I were him. But you really think he (Brock as a human) woulda done anything? he goes to a church and asks god to do it for Christ's sake, how retarded can you get?
You're absolutely right. But since this was pretty much the origin of the Venom character in the comics, didn't you just shit on him there as well?
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Old 05-30-2007, 06:08 PM   #298
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"Goblin was a pre-existing character. --------- This is NEW GOBLIN. New look, new handler, new character."


I meant Harry Osborne
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Old 05-30-2007, 06:29 PM   #299
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That reply, without substance or explanation/reasoning is invalid. And lol you most certainly have one of the worst names I've ever seen at TPWW. No offence.
what's wrong with my name?
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Old 05-30-2007, 06:34 PM   #300
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Well, I wasn't going to say anything, but...It makes you look fat.
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Old 05-30-2007, 06:40 PM   #301
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Old 05-30-2007, 10:04 PM   #302
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Kano
Those things weren't shortcuts at all. - Yes, yes they were.
No, they're not. I don't think I could outdo the established explanations that were given, but seriously, if you can just refute that with like four words....

Quote:
Yeah whatever, but the dialogue, and the way in which it was all presented was in such a way that it appeared rushed, and as if the motives for each characters actions changed so easily without any emotion or portrayal of emotion. The idea was there, but executed very badly.
Not if you were paying attention. Maybe you walked out to take a piss during six or seven different scenes....

Quote:
Black suit Brock wanted and wouldve killed him. Brock wanted him dead the day it happened, so would I if I were him. But you really think he (Brock as a human) woulda done anything? he goes to a church and asks god to do it for Christ's sake, how retarded can you get?
I already commented, but yes, Marvel Comics is pretty retarded.

Quote:
I remember reading one of the comics saying the black suite would always want to BOND with Parker because Parker's spider/superhuman gifts would make the symbiote more powerful than just an average human.
In a couple of comics, Brock explicitly says that the symbiote couldn't do what it does to him to Spidey Because his powers aren't natural. Hence Brock+Weightlifting=score!

However, the Symbiote has tried to bond with him before. It nearly killed Brock AND the Symbiote.

Also, this ain't the comics. Things do change. Maybe the first movie was ruined by Spider-Man not building Web-Shooters.

Quote:
Yeah thats true, but if you are just going to basically class each character as a hero or villain, there would be 4. Way too much for one superhero film against one hero. Period.
It's really not.

Parker goes from a really good place to over his head, nearly drowing in shit he created. It's actually pretty good storytelling, except the Butler bit.

Quote:
Sony has always stated they intended to make 6 films. So thats wrong right there.
There has always been a doubt as to whether it would go past 3. Between the cast, the director, and the overall cost, a Trilogy is the theoretical cap most of the time.

Quote:
Yeah ok fair enough I guess I did have too much of a personal opinion as to how the movie was gonna be. But my point still stands, and you have to agree or disagree....was this the worst Spidy movie of the three? I'm betting the majority say yes. And thats mainly what I am getting at, when in reality, it shouldve been the best. And thats realistically and in my opinion.
I'm seeing mixed reviews, but what I'm also seeing is that most people seem to be complaining about shit that was in the first two movies, too.

Which is horribly funny.
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Old 05-31-2007, 01:00 AM   #303
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amen
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Old 05-31-2007, 03:37 AM   #304
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I fell asleep reading Kano's long "Spider Man 3 sucked" posts.

Venom coulda been handle'd a little differnt, I agree. Would have preferred Venom being the main villain in a movie rather than having 20 minutes on screen.

But for the rest of your points Kano, stfu.
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Old 05-31-2007, 07:32 AM   #305
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LOL chill out LoDown were talkin' films here =D

I watched Spiderman 3 again yesterday aft on a suprisingly good pirate copy and I guess its not as bad as I initially said.....I think my main gripe is with the handling of Venom.....but I still feel as though various parts are either rushed, crammed or just not good, but as for the entire overall story and what the film is as a whole it is pretty good.

But still also my personal least favoured of the three. I have faith for the 4th.
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Old 05-31-2007, 08:59 AM   #306
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I don't. I'd be willing to bet money on a new Spidey, a new MJ, and a new director.
It's remarkable that they made it to 3 films as consistent and strong as they did, and managed to keep the same cast and director. That's a feat no other comic movie series has managed to do thus far. That's of course thanks to 3 movie deals and contract options signed on to. This can and will be duplicated in other projects, but no actor or director is inking a deal any longer than that early on. If they can work out a way to keep the same components on board for another movie or more, I'll be even more happy.
But I don't hold out much hope for Macguire and Raimi sticking around for a fourth and beyond.
Just like I don't hold much hope for Bale and Nolan sticking around for more than 3 over on the DC side of things.

Let's be realistic, it's the type of thing I learned long ago about movies. Great actors and directors don't want to devote more than a decade to the same project, regardless of how good it is. Especially when they're as successful at it as they are and it opens doors for new things.
I don't doubt Raimi, Nolan or anyone elses love for the source material, but they're actors not comic die hards.
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Old 05-31-2007, 09:03 AM   #307
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Bastards shouls be forced to finish it all.
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Old 05-31-2007, 09:08 AM   #308
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When you're dealing with Batman and Spiderman, it can never be finished. Unless they do like 7 or 8 movies and use up all the characters, theres gonna be room for more. That's why you'll never really get a truly definitive comic book movie series. There's just too much to be done and too many factors working against it staying consistent.
There's also too much money to be made. Even if the same team delivers 3 or 4 movies, the studios are gonna want more. They'll change everything and continue it until it's destroyed. Then after a few years, the franchise will be reimagined and restarted in a new way. The characters are bulletproof and full of dollars. Studios won't learn their lesson from other studios mistakes, or even their own. Spiderman will probably end up like Batman did. And the new Batman series will probably end up like the last one.
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Old 05-31-2007, 12:34 PM   #309
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People just have to accept that movies are a poor venue for comic-book style action.

I suggested a serial style a few years back. And again when X-3 came out.

Heroes has proved it possible, albeit on a non-movie scale.

The problems such as directors would still come up, and they could still ruin things, but they wouldn't have to jam things into a 2 hour movie.

The problem with building up something like, say, Harry/Peter (LAWLS) is that you only have around 2 hours to do it in a given movie, and no guarantee the next movie won't fall through. You wait on the payoff, you may never get there.

Sony has waffled on how many movies they'd make. Raimi said he wanted to do 6, but there's no guarantee there. I mean, now we can pretty much be certain, because the thing is such a huge seller, but we didn't know that ofr sure when it was written, filed, and edited.

Spider-Man probably won't go the same route Batman's last franchise did, but it will eventually die, one way or t'other. And it'll be rebooted. Just like Jeri said.
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Old 05-31-2007, 12:41 PM   #310
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The circle of life.
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Old 05-31-2007, 08:51 PM   #311
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AAAAAAND IT MOOOVES US AAAAAAAAAAL THROUGH GREATNESS AND CAAAAAAAMP THROUGH TRIUMPH AND FLOOOOOOOP
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Old 05-31-2007, 09:05 PM   #312
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Just watched Spidey 3 AGAIN yeah thats right my mates aint seen it just put it on the box again. You know what else grinds my gears about the film, a lot of the dialogue...

Than English bitch news reporter - 'Its hard...to believe whats happening...the brutality of it, I dont know how he can take anymore' - shuuut the fuck up bitch!

Those kids watching Harry explode Sandman's head - 'Wow' - acceptable, but then, 'wicked cool' - wtf?
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Old 05-31-2007, 09:08 PM   #313
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeritron
Doc Ock is more alive than Venom, and Doc Ock is dead
I'm could have sworn I read a magizine in Jay Jonah's office that says Doc Oc is alive in spidey 3...cant recal...
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Old 05-31-2007, 09:13 PM   #314
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Think it was a 'still at large', which was either when they couldn't find him when he WAS alive, or that they don't know he is sittin at the bottom of the seabed. Aint too good on the NY scene so water, whatever.
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Old 05-31-2007, 09:55 PM   #315
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Quote:
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I'm could have sworn I read a magizine in Jay Jonah's office that says Doc Oc is alive in spidey 3...cant recal...
Yeah, definitely not Destor.

Anyway, "At Large" was at the printing, which is framed on a wall, not a current piece. And further, doesn't mean he's alive...As Kano said, just not caught.
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Old 05-31-2007, 09:58 PM   #316
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Yeah, definitely not Destor.

Anyway, "At Large" was at the printing, which is framed on a wall, not a current piece. And further, doesn't mean he's alive...As Kano said, just not caught.
Probably right, I only caught a glimpse. Not nerdy enough to pay attention tbh.

But I will go on the record with this: If three more spidey movies are made I promise Doc Oc will be in one.

I will bump this in due time.
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Old 05-31-2007, 10:12 PM   #317
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Yeah see that sounds good...BUT he managed to over-power and gain control of his other arms lol and realise he made mistakes, as in he turned face, and then, you remember what happened???...you nerdy enough to remember that?...he then sank to the bottom OF A FUCKING WATERY GRAVE YEAH!!!..HE''S DEAD OK.
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Old 06-01-2007, 04:04 AM   #318
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The Doc Ock still at large poster is just a neat reference to the last film. It's the exact headline and paper cover that they show/discuss in part 2. It's not some kind of hint, it's just an easter egg.
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Old 06-01-2007, 09:02 AM   #319
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Kano
Yeah see that sounds good...BUT he managed to over-power and gain control of his other arms lol and realise he made mistakes, as in he turned face, and then, you remember what happened???...you nerdy enough to remember that?...he then sank to the bottom OF A FUCKING WATERY GRAVE YEAH!!!..HE''S DEAD OK.
Yeah, except he didn't die onscreen (He just sunk and is presumed dead).

Remember, the rule of any comic book, action movie, or soap opera is:

They're not dead until you see their lifeless corpse (and usually, not even then).
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Old 06-01-2007, 09:28 AM   #320
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Yeah good point but I think it be best to move on with other characters.
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