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Old 10-14-2012, 06:04 AM   #1
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There's never gonna be another title chase/title win like Mick Foley's first
I've been rewatching late 1998 WWF lately, the major story is Mankind continually getting screwed out of the title. I'm at the Rock Bottom ppv where he beats The Rock via TKO with the mandible claw and Vince says you can only win by pin or submission, so The Rock retains. It feels like there's no way Mankind can pull it off.

In today's landscape, Jack Swagger was a world champion. You don't get that feeling that nobody can pull it off. Nothing is shocking anymore when it comes to title victories. CM Punk at MITB was the closest thing to shocking relating to a championship in WWE... but he'd already been a champion and the shocking part of that was more due to his contract mystery than anything else.

Mick Foley probably became a star when Undertaker threw him off the cell. In my opinion, he became a main eventer once he got that first title victory over The Rock. How is it possible to make main eventers in this era when the belt isn't capable of producing a main eventer?
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Old 10-14-2012, 06:45 AM   #2
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Red face
The belt is capable of "making a star", you just need a decent storyline to win that prop. That's the part that's missing.
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Old 10-14-2012, 07:58 AM   #3
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I, for a split second, thought Santino could possibly win the World Title at Elimination Chamber. THAT is the kind of atmosphere I love.

Like how I marked out when Santino was still in the Rumble with Del Rio. Sure, you know they'd never do it but....you start thinking "what if they did it?" and you're so gripped by it.
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Old 10-14-2012, 09:03 AM   #4
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I think Swagger having the belt was a bad decision. Dude is BOOOOORRRRIINNNNNGGG and I fast-forward x5 whenever he is/was on. He is a perfect example of "not ready".

I think Ziggler, when he finally gets his title, will be deserving. He has put on MANY 5 star matches with Sheamus. Every damn time those two wrestle it is a damn good show. I remember one of the first times they squared off, Ziggler threw Sheamus into the announce table and left a nasty ass mark on his back that was visible for weeks. Anyhoo, he has had a "long road" but not necessarily the screw jobs you reference. He has also had a lot of time for people to buy into his persona.
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Old 10-14-2012, 10:27 AM   #5
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They had a chance to do something similar (upto a certain extent) with John Morrison.
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Old 10-14-2012, 11:04 AM   #6
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MITB kills that because they will give the upper midcarder the victory as a fluke win and then see how his run with the title plays out.
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Old 10-14-2012, 11:11 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadrick View Post
I, for a split second, thought Santino could possibly win the World Title at Elimination Chamber. THAT is the kind of atmosphere I love.

Like how I marked out when Santino was still in the Rumble with Del Rio. Sure, you know they'd never do it but....you start thinking "what if they did it?" and you're so gripped by it.

could you imagine the shitstorm that would erupt on the internet if that happened?
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Old 10-14-2012, 11:24 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike adamle View Post
How is it possible to make main eventers in this era when the belt isn't capable of producing a main eventer?
Good post.

In my opinion, the answer to your question is the "less is more approach."

One company = one world champion.

-Combine the World/WWE title
-Combine with IC/US title.

Unfortunately - whoever is the world/WWE champion on Smackdown will basically be the equivalent of what an IC champion was in 1998.

While it's true that having two world titles allows for less of a glass ceiling, being a world champion on Smackdown doesn't do a whole lot for one's credibility (relatively speaking).
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Old 10-14-2012, 12:35 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heyman View Post
One company = one world champion.
This is the main point that fucks everything up. No one can really be at "the top" of the company since there isn't really one world title. It's ridiculous. It's an excuse to give a guy like Jack Swagger the status that guys like The Rock, Austin and Hogan have had. We know it's not the same thing but that's the thought process and it's stupid.

Like Shadrick said, Santino was the closest thing to a "holy shit, holy shit, holy shit, what if he pulls it off" moment but Santino is SO far down the ladder, it just shows how low the standards are that that's how much of a glorified jobber you have to be to "shock the world" by winning the title.

So yeah, the only way to fix it is to have one world title. This prevents a company who is too lazy to build stars and is dumb enough to think throwing the world title on someone is gonna get them over from "using" one a world title in such a manner because you don't have another one to fall back on.
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Old 10-14-2012, 12:35 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Savior View Post
MITB kills that because they will give the upper midcarder the victory as a fluke win and then see how his run with the title plays out.
Couldn't agree more now that you said it. This is why we'll never get another Foley-esque moment.
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Old 10-14-2012, 12:40 PM   #11
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MITB as it is is just an awful idea. It should be tweaked though. At lease have the guy have to give a one hour notice that he's gonna cash in and make it a legit match or something.
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Old 10-14-2012, 12:42 PM   #12
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I like the idea of the case and having a guy be able to use it any night he decides to use it. But the "shock" of the sudden cash-in lost it's luster a long time ago and now it just helps to make the title they want so desperately meaningless.
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Old 10-14-2012, 01:12 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heyman View Post
Good post.

In my opinion, the answer to your question is the "less is more approach."

One company = one world champion.

-Combine the World/WWE title
-Combine with IC/US title.

Unfortunately - whoever is the world/WWE champion on Smackdown will basically be the equivalent of what an IC champion was in 1998.

While it's true that having two world titles allows for less of a glass ceiling, being a world champion on Smackdown doesn't do a whole lot for one's credibility (relatively speaking).
Also agree with this as well. This plus MITB is what's stopping the WWE from making stars.
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Old 10-14-2012, 01:21 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan View Post
I like the idea of the case and having a guy be able to use it any night he decides to use it. But the "shock" of the sudden cash-in lost it's luster a long time ago and now it just helps to make the title they want so desperately meaningless.
I feel like this is the reason why when Dolph finally cashes in everyone's gonna be talking about how disappointing it was
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Old 10-14-2012, 01:23 PM   #15
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I agree with you. At least for the near future, the world title, does not seem like something as high up and unattainable on the totem pole as it did for midcarders in the Attitude era. To make things worse, there are two world titles...

I still think WWE should have ONE WWE title, with IC and US titles as top titles of their respective brands and the WWE title storyline can be featured on both shows...but I guess that's not practical because WWE wants a world/WWE champ when traveling on the road...dunno.

But I definetely don't see anything as awesome as Foley's first chase in the near future.
The title simply doesn't have the same value...the same mystique.
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Old 10-14-2012, 01:41 PM   #16
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It would help if they stopped giving guys the belt within their first year or two and actually allowed them to build a "career". Rarely does a guy work his way up by winning lesser titles and then chase the big belt. They bring in guys and right away they are main eventers. The fans love the underdog (unless the underdog is facing John Cena).
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Old 10-14-2012, 02:07 PM   #17
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I think its possible to create a really amazing chase although that would take a lot of long term thinking by the writers who have shown problems doing this a lot.

Wouldn't use the MitB to generate it though since that fits better with the random cashing in than something that gets a slow/gradual build up to the title moment.

Although either way you'd be missing that special piece from Foley's win considering how influential it became. No massive crowd tuning in just to see that moment, no overall impact outside their feud, and the WWE ruined the "deying all odds" feeling from all the times Cena did it with ease.
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Old 10-14-2012, 05:04 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Savior View Post
MITB kills that because they will give the upper midcarder the victory as a fluke win and then see how his run with the title plays out.
Yep. It's hard to legitimise a new World Champ when he's won it in the most sneaky, under-handed way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jerichoholicninja View Post
It would help if they stopped giving guys the belt within their first year or two and actually allowed them to build a "career". Rarely does a guy work his way up by winning lesser titles and then chase the big belt. They bring in guys and right away they are main eventers. The fans love the underdog (unless the underdog is facing John Cena).
This goes across the board. They give new guys the IC/US titles too soon, as well. Then they get stuck in that division for years (Ziggler, Rhodes, Kofi, etc) and it becomes hard to see them as anything but a mid-card/second tier Campion.

Characters rarely have a journey nowadays but I put that down to a sign of the times; everything moves much more quickly.
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Old 10-14-2012, 05:31 PM   #19
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I don't think it's impossible to recreate the kind of atmosphere that surrounded Foley's chase for the WWF Championship. It all comes down to the writing - it's all about investing in a superstar who has fan backing and long-term planning for his eventual victory.

I thought they had a great thing going with Jeff Hardy chasing the WWE Championship toward the end of his run with the company. He came so close against Randy Orton several times only to just barely get beaten out on several occasions. I remember feeling like Jeff was never going to really get his WWE Title run. When he finally captured the WWE Title from Edge and Triple H, it was a great moment, lessened by the fact that it wasn't the true main event and that he had held the World Heavyweight Title before hand. It was also lessened by poor writing. The Jeff Hardy chase should have been the main storyline on TV, but it wasn't.

I do miss the days when a guy would chase his first world title only to get that big victory at WrestleMania. It's such a great moment when it happens - Benoit's victory at WrestleMania XX is still one of my favorite moments of all time. Shawn Michaels' victory at WrestleMania XII is another great example, as well as Bret Hart's at WrestleMania X. Mysterio's win had the same potential, but it was lessened by the shadow of Eddie Guerrero's death, the fact that the match was very short, and the fact that it wasn't the main event. I think they could have done similar stories with guys like CM Punk and Daniel Bryan, but again, WWE doesn't have the discipline to execute these kinds of long term storylines and give them the attention, detail and TV time that they deserve.

We can only hope that WWE will try one of these sorts of stories again sometime in the future. Right now the only guy I can see pulling this off is Dolph Ziggler, but really it's a better story when the guy is a face. Dolph has proven himself to be a great heel, but I don't know if his face potential is nearly as great. Besides, they'll probably blow this opportunity by having him do a cheap cash-in and win the World Title from Sheamus at some point in the near future.
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Old 10-14-2012, 07:40 PM   #20
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Edge winning his first WWE Championship was probably the last time I was genuinely happy.
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Old 10-14-2012, 10:04 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guru Dave View Post
Edge winning his first WWE Championship was probably the last time I was genuinely happy.
Damn like overall? Cheer up man.
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Old 10-14-2012, 10:23 PM   #22
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As far as wrestlers winning titles is concerned
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Old 10-14-2012, 11:03 PM   #23
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ahah. Even still, that's a long time to not be genuinely happy about someone winning a title...
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Old 10-14-2012, 11:48 PM   #24
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I like the idea of the case and having a guy be able to use it any night he decides to use it. But the "shock" of the sudden cash-in lost it's luster a long time ago and now it just helps to make the title they want so desperately meaningless.
This. Also, the idea of "telegraphing" when you're going to cash it in is killed now because that's what Cena did, and with him being the only* failed MITB winner and them giving him calling for the match in advance the reason, they've pretty much shot that in the foot.

Unless they have someone come in, be "confident" enough to call the match, have it, AND win (and also, inversely, have another person fail to cash in and win on a "surprise"), it will pretty much be a staple of the MITB case from here to infinity.

Kinda like the "24/7 rule". Was supposed to be a gimmick for "fighting champion/Houdini of Hardcore" Crash as an excuse for funny vignettes of him getting jumped in backstage areas, hotel rooms, and restaurants for title shots by random people, and ended up being an actual observed rule for the belt. Kinda lost it's shine after awhile.


*Kennedy doesn't count. In fact, I believe if he weren't labeled "stupid" or an "injury prone botch machine", and had stuck around , they would have legit made "Vince's illegtimate son" the winner cashing in at the next 'Mania. He had wayyyy more momentum than trying that with DB.
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Old 10-15-2012, 12:05 AM   #25
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Edge winning his first WWE Championship was probably the last time I was genuinely happy.
Funny thing is, they weren't. Remember, the sentiment is that he wouldn't work as a viable champion? Also, Cena and Orton were experiments that people in power believed couldn't carry the company. And apparently, CM Punk likely doesn't know how to be a heel.

On topic: they actually could do an underdog angle like Foley's. Hell, had they not dropped the ball on him so badly, it could have been Zack Ryder. I know I've said (very recently, in fact... like, yesterday) that he shouldn't be champion, just pushed as a top-tier guy, but with the right booking (which seems to be a common problem in elevating people) he could have been the guy for awhile. Even if he were "transitional", he still could have provided that moment. Instead, he was barely on TV, and when he was, he a) squashed a jobber b) was squashed by an uppercardsman c) won a "tag-team match, playa!" that had more to do with his partner and one of their opponents being in some sort of angle against eachother.
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Old 10-15-2012, 12:57 AM   #26
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Old 10-15-2012, 08:44 AM   #27
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Totally forgot about this
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Old 10-15-2012, 10:09 AM   #28
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Didn't Mark Henry have that storyline where nobody thought he 'could win the big one', that was wayyyyyy better than Foley.

Him beating Orton was one of my fave wrasslin moments.
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Old 10-15-2012, 11:48 AM   #29
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Didn't Mark Henry have that storyline where nobody thought he 'could win the big one', that was wayyyyyy better than Foley.

Him beating Orton was one of my fave wrasslin moments.

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Old 10-16-2012, 05:33 PM   #30
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They need to make both shows live and seperate the brands totally. Maybe bring back brand specific PPVs except for the majors...
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Old 10-16-2012, 06:40 PM   #31
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Didn't Mark Henry have that storyline where nobody thought he 'could win the big one', that was wayyyyyy better than Foley.

Him beating Orton was one of my fave wrasslin moments.
Then retaining cleanly again... fucking epic for a monster heel to beat a major, over face like Orton for the title cleanly and then retain cleanly like that.

His build as a monster too with the Sheamus feud and their match at SummerSlam was pretty genius as well. It pissed me off that after Henry lost the title they just used him to put Sheamus over in a squash on Raw as he was going for the title. If they had waited til after Sheamus won the title and used the feud almost a year earlier where Sheamus thought he was gonna be the one to stop Henry's dominance and ultimately lost, Henry being Sheamus' first challenger could have been incredible. They set it up so well before Henry won the title and there was no good resolution.
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Old 10-16-2012, 06:42 PM   #32
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They need to make both shows live and seperate the brands totally. Maybe bring back brand specific PPVs except for the majors...
Smackdown probably wouldn't sell well on PPV on it's own with the wrestlers only getting airtime on SyFy.
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Old 10-18-2012, 03:37 AM   #33
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John Morrison popped into my head as I read this. There was a time when he could have been a "rising star" that could have had that epic lead-in to a WWE Title reign. Remember when he went through that streak of constantly stealing the show? R-Truth writing him off made perfect sense, but then they brought Morrison back and just never pulled the trigger. I guess Morrison's head wasn't in the right place, and that sort of stuff.

I sort of got that feeling with Kofi Kingston on RAW, too. He's such a babyface that you think he can't go beyond that "happy-go-lucky" mid-card spot, but he constantly shows fire and an ability to hang with the top players when he is inserted into main event storylines. Let him get a few big victories over The Miz, and then have him beat Antonio Cesaro in a Champion vs. Champion environment to get some sort of hierarchy going with the titles. By the time the Royal Rumble rolls along, Kofi might make a great "surprise in the final four" guy, and from that could even be used in the Elimination Chamber, and people might really start calling for the guy to be a World Champion by the time 2013 is done.
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Old 10-18-2012, 04:02 AM   #34
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I sort of got that feeling with Kofi Kingston on RAW, too. He's such a babyface that you think he can't go beyond that "happy-go-lucky" mid-card spot, but he constantly shows fire and an ability to hang with the top players when he is inserted into main event storylines. Let him get a few big victories over The Miz, and then have him beat Antonio Cesaro in a Champion vs. Champion environment to get some sort of hierarchy going with the titles. By the time the Royal Rumble rolls along, Kofi might make a great "surprise in the final four" guy, and from that could even be used in the Elimination Chamber, and people might really start calling for the guy to be a World Champion by the time 2013 is done.
Agree with this 100P, Kofi's great
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Old 10-18-2012, 05:45 PM   #35
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Agree with this 100P, Kofi's great
I say as long as he's chasing Ziggler for it. That would be dynamic!
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Old 10-18-2012, 05:55 PM   #36
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Quote:
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Totally forgot about this
I didn't. Just didn't think it quite counted, since his first reign was a sympathy reign akin to Rey Rey's after Eddie died.

As much as I love Christian getting the title (albeit for a wayyyy too brief a reign), it doesn't quite fit because the build wasn't as great as it could have been if it weren't for Edge's forced departure. I think that "one more match" thing could have been the gateway from constantly getting screwed as a face and could have been way over, instead of being used after his heel turn and basically making him look like a bitch. Also, it was after his "second reign", and the "finally won the big one" card had already been played.

In short, had the WWE not gone into panic mode, and been sooooo desperate to put ADR over huge, they might have been able to build Christian as "that guy" over a couple months. Even injured, they could have kept him on TV to cut promos and such.

And yes, Mark Henry was a guy who didn't win the big one... but his was a bit different. It was one "off" comment about his tenure versus never winning a world title that sent him on his way to destroy everyone and create the Hall of Pain. Difference being he wasn't an underdog that proved skeptics wrong as much as that flipped the switch into "unstoppable beast we always knew he could have been" mode.
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Old 10-19-2012, 03:22 AM   #37
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Raw is Taped ruined Foley's first reign for me. It should have been on live fucking TV.
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Old 10-19-2012, 04:43 AM   #38
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Red face
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Raw is Taped ruined Foley's first reign for me. It should have been on live fucking TV.
I was pretty damn glad it was taped, or I would have missed it watching Nitro.

I still wish Nitro and Raw were on different times here. I mean, we didn't get them until Friday back then anyway.
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Old 10-19-2012, 08:54 PM   #39
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The WWE really should have at least tried to allow Christian to run as a top face on SmackDown last year. Orton didn't need the title, much like he doesn't need it now with Sheamus also appearing on the show.
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Old 10-19-2012, 08:56 PM   #40
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But yeah, Christian's title win, while awesome for us, wasn't as big as it could have been because the feud was really between Edge and Del Rio. It might have been more special if Del Rio had beaten Edge and then Christian beat Del Rio. Everything seemed pretty set for a Del Rio win at WrestleMania, which I think would have helped him out a lot, but apparently they gave it to Edge because they realised he hadn't won at Mania in a while.
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