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Old 12-19-2016, 12:36 PM   #41
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I am saying it would probably still be a carny side show. It woukd still exist but I don't think it would be anywhere near what it is. Honestly don't know if it eould be on tv in North America. I have tried to watch TNA and ROH but it is so painfully bad that it is just a terrible tv show. I think television watching habits have change so much that it probably would have to be a netflix series to have any tv time.
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Old 12-19-2016, 12:42 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stickman View Post
I am saying it would probably still be a carny side show. It woukd still exist but I don't think it would be anywhere near what it is. Honestly don't know if it eould be on tv in North America. I have tried to watch TNA and ROH but it is so painfully bad that it is just a terrible tv show. I think television watching habits have change so much that it probably would have to be a netflix series to have any tv time.
I agree that the existing non WWF product is bad but thats is related to the monopolization as much as anything.


But the notion that it couldnt be national ignores that other companies have been national for 40 years all across the planet. The heights it reached in Japan are as monsterous and it has reached in the states. Someone else could have come along and did what Vince did and there is really no reason to think otherwise. The only difference is that someone made not have become the only show in town. We will never know.
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Old 12-19-2016, 12:58 PM   #43
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I agree that the existing non WWF product is bad but thats is related to the monopolization as much as anything.


But the notion that it couldnt be national ignores that other companies have been national for 40 years all across the planet. The heights it reached in Japan are as monsterous and it has reached in the states. Someone else could have come along and did what Vince did and there is really no reason to think otherwise. The only difference is that someone made not have become the only show in town. We will never know.
I get what you are saying, but Vince came around at the right time then WCW came at the right time. Vince almost went out of business, had that happen I think wcw woukd have eventually gone out of business too. The 90s were an interesting time with the explosion of tv and internet but I do think without vinces balls and genius wrestling could have disappeared altogether on tv due to the changing face of tv. Think about the world today minus wreslting, does anybody think if wrestling comes to tv now anybody watches? I think Vince is why wrestling is still on tv.

I can't speak for wrestling overseas or in Mexico because I live in North America, but I don't think American Wrestling works now had it not been for VKM.
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Old 12-19-2016, 01:04 PM   #44
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I get what you are saying, but Vince came around at the right time then WCW came at the right time. Vince almost went out of business, had that happen I think wcw woukd have eventually gone out of business too. The 90s were an interesting time with the explosion of tv and internet but I do think without vinces balls and genius wrestling could have disappeared altogether on tv due to the changing face of tv. Think about the world today minus wreslting, does anybody think if wrestling comes to tv now anybody watches? I think Vince is why wrestling is still on tv.

I can't speak for wrestling overseas or in Mexico because I live in North America, but I don't think American Wrestling works now had it not been for VKM.
Debatable, but moot. Can you state in one way the industry is better outside of the WWF today than it was before him?
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Old 12-19-2016, 02:55 PM   #45
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Debatable, but moot. Can you state in one way the industry is better outside of the WWF today than it was before him?
I wasn't around before him nor am I a wrestling historian so I can't truly answer that question. But I would guess you have more real athletes as wrestlers now than before when any big muscular guy or fat ass could compete. I hate with a passion watching Roh and Tna but it is so much better in ring than up to the early to mid 80s.
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Old 12-19-2016, 03:01 PM   #46
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I wasn't around before him nor am I a wrestling historian so I can't truly answer that question. But I would guess you have more real athletes as wrestlers now than before when any big muscular guy or fat ass could compete. I hate with a passion watching Roh and Tna but it is so much better in ring than up to the early to mid 80s.
We're about to get super side tracked here but I keep thinking if the Fed hires anymore fat guys they need to put them all in a stable
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Old 12-19-2016, 04:13 PM   #47
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It's better because all the other promoters were either behind the times (Verne Gagne) or inept (Verne Gagne, Fritz Von Erich) or didn't have the financial means to sustain the long haul (Bill Watts). Vince actually organized things and I shudder to think what would have happened had Vince not did what he did. The AWA, WCCW, FCW, Central States etc would have collapsed regardless. JCP was the only competition and the way they book didn't have mass appeal. It's better because you have something rather than nothing.
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Old 12-19-2016, 04:24 PM   #48
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But that's all speculative. You dont know what would have come down the pike. Either new promoters or new ideas. What you know is there was a successful industry when vince came on the scene in 1980 there was an industry. In 2016 there isnt. Those are real facts. Vince took control not because he was the only guy with a good show but because he was smarter. He knew more about business and marketing. The territories died out BECAUSE of how Vince shifted the market. They were unequipped to respond...but if he had never existed? No reasons to think they wouldnt have stayed the course.
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Old 12-19-2016, 04:28 PM   #49
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If it wasn't for Vince then wrestling would never have become as huge as it was or is now.
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Old 12-19-2016, 04:28 PM   #50
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If it wasn't for Vince then wrestling would never have become as huge as it was or is now.
Wrestling isnt huge. The WWE is.
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Old 12-19-2016, 04:29 PM   #51
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Yeah business is soo great right now for the WWE that they suddenly need around $200 million to cover their current debts based on recent financial reports.

Network itself still hasn't come close to doing the financial things the WWE was expecting by now and even has declined a bit in terms of overall performance. Even so, it was only ever meant to replace their tv and ppv revenues which it still hasn't managed to get close to doing so.
Never meant to replace TV revenue. The issue was PPV was a very volatile business, they figured out something that flattened monthly revenues and wound up increasing revenue compared to the PPV model years. Costs are higher now, but that's to be expected during the early stages of a new venture. They have tons of opportunities to further maximize revenues with tiered pricing and as they conquest overseas markets. Long run they made the right call and it's paying off in spades.
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Old 12-19-2016, 04:31 PM   #52
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Ask yourself if this is a guy you wanna try to have a discussion with.
Have you ever contributed ANYTHING to a discussion?

BTW, how are the Walking Dead ratings this season? Still increasing like you said?
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Old 12-19-2016, 04:36 PM   #53
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To me this is simple. You take an industry that had, i dunno lets go conservative here, 1000 jobs across the country and replace it with 100 jobs you have not improved industry. If you had 15 successful businesses and replaced it with 1.

Walmart was not good for the supermarket industry. It was good for walmart.

And thats not me saying walmart was a failure theres just a diference between the two things.
But that's not on Vince or the crappy supermarkets.

The crappy wrestling promotions were crap and they went out of business. Vince didn't force them to not be able to sell tickets to their events. Vince didn't force them to be failures on PPV. Vince didn't force them to draw terrible TV numbers.

The proper statement would be thank God for Vince, because without him, those crappy wrestling promotions would have went out of business and there would be no industry today.
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Old 12-19-2016, 04:40 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan View Post
Not only that, but I think what Vince has done since buying WCW has definitely hurt the business. WWE's popularity has been on a steady decline and with it, since it's synonymous with wrestling, has gone the business itself. WCW thrived because Vince made wrestling a mainstream juggernaut and WCW took advantage of that. Even if TNA were actually producing a strong product over the past 15 years though they wouldn't stand much of a chance because the industry is not the draw it was. And that's also because of Vince.

So I'm kind of in between. I think he helped it and then hurt it.
There's no barrier to entry in this industry. Literally anyone with deep enough pockets could get TV time, buy some rings, rent arenas, contact talent and start a company. Anyone who tries has failed or had minimal success. Goes to show that Vince has figured out something that the others haven't.

It's funny reading statements about TNA lack of growth is somehow the wrongdoing of Vince. He ran his business and watched every competitor fail. Their lack of success should not be blamed on him.
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Old 12-19-2016, 04:42 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by Stickman View Post
I think wrestling would have died 1-2 decades ago if it wasn't for Vince. If you think, it is probably the silliest thing on TV and without Vince making it relevant I don't think it would have continued anywhere near what it is. Maybe it would still be a travelling carny show at best.
Agreed
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Old 12-19-2016, 04:43 PM   #56
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I am saying it would probably still be a carny side show. It woukd still exist but I don't think it would be anywhere near what it is. Honestly don't know if it eould be on tv in North America. I have tried to watch TNA and ROH but it is so painfully bad that it is just a terrible tv show. I think television watching habits have change so much that it probably would have to be a netflix series to have any tv time.
What do you know, a fellow Canadian bringing more logic to the table.
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Old 12-19-2016, 04:53 PM   #57
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But that's all speculative. You dont know what would have come down the pike. Either new promoters or new ideas. What you know is there was a successful industry when vince came on the scene in 1980 there was an industry. In 2016 there isnt. Those are real facts. Vince took control not because he was the only guy with a good show but because he was smarter. He knew more about business and marketing. The territories died out BECAUSE of how Vince shifted the market. They were unequipped to respond...but if he had never existed? No reasons to think they wouldnt have stayed the course.
Just flat out wrong.

Vince made some moves, but others could have followed suit. WCW survived for a long time. There's no reason to think other promoters could have been successful as well. The problem was they were no good. Line up side by side a WWE show say in 1985 and compare it to any other promotion at the time. The non WWE products looked like they were filmed in a smokey high school gymnasium. Likely because a lot of the times, that's where they were filmed.

Even today, why can't TNA match what WWE does? Look at the rest of entertainment, lots of shows come and go. They gain a following, it dips off, and then something new takes over. TNA was on the same cable channel WWE and had the same opportunities but couldn't capitalize. Just like AWA and other groups could have taken off in the 80s. They didn't because they suck (ed).
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Old 12-19-2016, 05:01 PM   #58
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New Japan and Japanese wrestling would have gotten more popular quicker in America had Vince never shown up.
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Old 12-19-2016, 05:23 PM   #59
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Guys... Guys...

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by The CyNick View Post
I look at something like TWD, which has amazing ratings, but have been in steady decline for some time now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smelly Meatball View Post
at using TWD again to claim the WWE is better. You did this several times before and each time forgetting how massive TWD viewer base is compared to WWE's and their drops following the traditional pattern for tv show seasons. Meanwhile WWE has been dropping yearly ever since the end of the Attitude Era with the 3 Hour Era producing larger yearly drops. WWE's pretty much down to their core audience since Cena wasn't able to bring in the next gen of long term fans.
The Walking Dead average ratings per episode (in millions)...

Season 1: 5.24
Season 2: 6.90
Season 3: 10.40
Season 4: 13.30
Season 5: 14.40
Season 6: 13.15
Season 7: TBD

The Walking Dead season premiere ratings...
Season 1: 5.35
Season 2: 7.26
Season 3: 10.87
Season 4: 16.11
Season 5: 17.30
Season 6: 14.63
Season 7: 17.03

Man. Look at that steady decline.

Again, for everyone who still wishes to take The CyNick seriously... just... come on...
Don't do it, guys...
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Old 12-19-2016, 05:25 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SlickyTrickyDamon View Post
New Japan and Japanese wrestling would have gotten more popular quicker in America had Vince never shown up.
No, just no.

A) Japanese wrestling isn't really entertaining,
B) North Americans hardly watch anything not North American.
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Old 12-19-2016, 05:33 PM   #61
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No, just no.

A) Japanese wrestling isn't really entertaining,
B) North Americans hardly watch anything not North American.
The huge shelves of Magna at my Local Barnes and Noble beg to differ.

When American animation turned somewhat kiddie many people turned to Japan. Very similar situation could have taken place in wrestling.
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Old 12-19-2016, 05:34 PM   #62
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Cynick must be trolling.
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Old 12-19-2016, 05:38 PM   #63
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Here's the tl;dr

Vince is god and we are lucky to have had him

Lol. Ok.
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Old 12-19-2016, 05:38 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by Destor View Post
Cynick must be trolling.
I didn't read his specific responses this time but... come on. We can safely assume by now...
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Old 12-19-2016, 05:40 PM   #65
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Right right. Touché
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Old 12-19-2016, 06:39 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by Destor View Post
But that's all speculative. You dont know what would have come down the pike. Either new promoters or new ideas. What you know is there was a successful industry when vince came on the scene in 1980 there was an industry. In 2016 there isnt. Those are real facts. Vince took control not because he was the only guy with a good show but because he was smarter. He knew more about business and marketing. The territories died out BECAUSE of how Vince shifted the market. They were unequipped to respond...but if he had never existed? No reasons to think they wouldnt have stayed the course.
They would have died regardless. The promoters were completely inept.
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Old 12-19-2016, 06:41 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SlickyTrickyDamon View Post
New Japan and Japanese wrestling would have gotten more popular quicker in America had Vince never shown up.
Do you have any idea how many times Vince brought over Inoki, Sakaguchi, Yatsu and Choshu? They got over like a fart in church.
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Old 12-19-2016, 10:07 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SlickyTrickyDamon View Post
New Japan and Japanese wrestling would have gotten more popular quicker in America had Vince never shown up.
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Originally Posted by SlickyTrickyDamon View Post
The huge shelves of Magna at my Local Barnes and Noble beg to differ.

When American animation turned somewhat kiddie many people turned to Japan. Very similar situation could have taken place in wrestling.
I fucking love Japanese wrestling, but what the fuck are you talking about here? What are you basing this on? Manga and Anime? What does that have to do with anything? They are completely different forms of entertainment.

Maybe if candy sales in vending machines starts falling, they'll start selling panties, because Naruto was a big hit over here.
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Old 12-19-2016, 11:01 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SlickyTrickyDamon View Post
The huge shelves of Magna at my Local Barnes and Noble beg to differ.

When American animation turned somewhat kiddie many people turned to Japan. Very similar situation could have taken place in wrestling.
STD manga, Anime,Wrestling WWWWWAAAAY different in terms of marketing,target audience, and a whole truckload of other stuff.
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Old 12-19-2016, 11:54 PM   #70
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@ Cynick's logical reasoning skills. It would be sad if he wasn't such a douche.
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Old 12-20-2016, 11:42 AM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan View Post
Guys... Guys...



Don't do it, guys...
Have you checked TWDs ratings season to date. Down again. They had a big first night because they had a massive teaser. But the falloff since then has been quite large.

But as usual you don't like facts that fly in the face of your narrative. You are probably a low energy type as well.
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Old 12-20-2016, 11:43 AM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCrippyZ View Post
@ Cynick's logical reasoning skills. It would be sad if he wasn't such a douche.
I would take a wager that I'm one of the nicest people you would ever meet. If you ever get out of your mom's basement that is. Cheers mate.
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Old 12-20-2016, 11:45 AM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Destor View Post
Here's the tl;dr

Vince is god and we are lucky to have had him

Lol. Ok.
Not God, but if they built a Mount Rushmore for the industry, he would be the lone person on the mountain.
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Old 12-20-2016, 12:25 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The CyNick View Post
I would take a wager that I'm one of the nicest people you would ever meet. If you ever get out of your mom's basement that is. Cheers mate.
That's great, but I'm not concerned with how nice you are.

I don't live with my parents and I haven't lived with them in over 15 years, nor do they have a basement.

For supposedly one of the nicest people I would ever meet, that's not exactly the "nicest" presumption you're alleging about me by the way.
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Old 12-20-2016, 12:33 PM   #75
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Dont feed the troll.
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Old 12-20-2016, 02:12 PM   #76
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He's trying hard. Throwing out softballs that make it difficult to call him out on. Resist the temptation, guys...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Simple Fan View Post
Del Rio joining Sheamus, Barrett, and Rusev would be a good group.
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Originally Posted by The CyNick View Post
Not Euro enough. Then it becomes an anti American group.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noid View Post
Why does it not being completely European make it anti-American?
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Originally Posted by The CyNick View Post
Well what do they have in common then?
Resist the temptation...
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Old 12-20-2016, 02:16 PM   #77
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Wait. Already did that one in this thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The CyNick View Post
what about a role where you are my young student u have a huge crush on me infatuated by me your so in love u want to have my baby and be mine ? interested decide your age in it . also call me vince .
DON'T DO IT, GUYS.
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Old 12-20-2016, 02:29 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCrippyZ View Post
That's great, but I'm not concerned with how nice you are.

I don't live with my parents and I haven't lived with them in over 15 years, nor do they have a basement.

For supposedly one of the nicest people I would ever meet, that's not exactly the "nicest" presumption you're alleging about me by the way.
I was being ironic. I don't actually think you live in your parents basement.
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Old 12-20-2016, 03:34 PM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The CyNick View Post
There's no barrier to entry in this industry. Literally anyone with deep enough pockets could get TV time, buy some rings, rent arenas, contact talent and start a company. Anyone who tries has failed or had minimal success. Goes to show that Vince has figured out something that the others haven't.

It's funny reading statements about TNA lack of growth is somehow the wrongdoing of Vince. He ran his business and watched every competitor fail. Their lack of success should not be blamed on him.
There's no barrier to entry in this business...except if you're not a multi-millionaire that can afford to lose a bunch of money on start up/running a new wrestling company.
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Old 12-20-2016, 03:42 PM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XL View Post
There's no barrier to entry in this business...except if you're not a multi-millionaire that can afford to lose a bunch of money on start up/running a new wrestling company.
That can be said about most businesses the size of WWE. If youer point is that a guy working at McDonalds likely can't start up a wrestling company tomorrow, you're right. But that doesn't mean Vince did something bad to the industry.

I don't think many McDonalds workers were starting up wrestling companies before Vince got involved in the game.
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