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Old 05-10-2012, 08:23 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by Wishbone View Post
And the Rock's return match at survivor series did horrible numbers so he must not be a "Main Eventer" either.
A perfect example. Rock couldn't draw big numbers for Survivor Series, but draw well for WM. The reason it didn't appeal more buys for Survivor Series was the storytelling. Why have ROCK accept Cena's offer to be a tag partner when he didn't like him? Where is my traditional survivor series matches? If you want to blame "the numbers" on anyone, blame it on the writers.
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Old 05-10-2012, 08:25 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by Kane Knight View Post
'Course, that's not what's being done here. At worst, it's using the numbers to justify existing feelings.
What I am getting at is people who has their feeligns influenced ONLY on numbers.
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Old 05-10-2012, 08:27 PM   #43
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yeah, I don't think the Survivor Series buys suddenly go through the roof if the card is fillled with traditional Survivor Series matches. Outside of the pretty obvious outcome, the booking was fine. That card was going to do roughly that number regardless. That post appears to be based on Wrestling Internet Fact #2,313, which is "Miz is in the doghouse for the Survivor Series buyrate". And the Mania buyrate wasn't down to just Rock, it was a year long build ft. a match between two of WWE's top guys ever going against each other for the first time. Survivor Series was never going come close to that no matter what they were doing.
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Old 05-10-2012, 08:28 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by Gertner View Post
It's justifying my opinion
Well that is why I ask, because sometimes it's seems that people give their opinion solely on the numbers...I figured that you were justifying it, because I have read your posts of how you feel about Daniel Bryan. But I am talking about how when a poster or a "wrestling fan" proclaims this guy sucks BECAUSE of the numbers.
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Old 05-10-2012, 08:32 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by CSL View Post
yeah, I don't think the Survivor Series buys suddenly go through the roof if the card is fillled with traditional Survivor Series matches. Outside of the pretty obvious outcome, the booking was fine. That card was going to do roughly that number regardless. That post appears to be based on Wrestling Internet Fact #2,313, which is "Miz is in the doghouse for the Survivor Series buyrate". And the Mania buyrate wasn't down to just Rock, it was a year long build ft. a match between two of WWE's top guys ever going against each other for the first time. Survivor Series was never going come close to that no matter what they were doing.
I know Survivor Series was never going to come close, and the booking was fine. But I was thinking, what if? Like, what could of been done to give it just a little bit of a spike in PPV buys. The "Miz was to blame for Survivor Series buyrate" was ridiculous.
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Old 05-10-2012, 08:49 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blakeamus View Post
I know Survivor Series was never going to come close, and the booking was fine. But I was thinking, what if? Like, what could of been done to give it just a little bit of a spike in PPV buys. The "Miz was to blame for Survivor Series buyrate" was ridiculous.
Partially to blame for Survivor Series having lower numbers than Wrestlemania is that some casual marks mistake SS as a tie-in for the TV show "Survivor."
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Old 05-10-2012, 08:59 PM   #47
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It's only obvious that Gertner has somehow pulled a Doctor Doom and has an army of Gertbots stationed everywhere programmed to changing the channel every time Daniel Bryan is on.
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Old 05-10-2012, 09:42 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CSL View Post
since you're asking:

John Cena
Randy Orton
The Rock
The Undertaker
Triple H
Brock Lesnar
Taker, Rock, & HHH got over during a time period when things weren't rushed, and characters were allowed more time to grow organically. Cena, I'll give you, but it took years of him beating everybody to get to that point. If Punk went on a 5 year winning streak and 10 world titles, he'd be at that point probably. Lesnar I'll give you, although his UFC run helped make him into the powerhouse draw he is now. And even though I like Orton to some degree, and he is one of the biggest stars of this era, he has never been a household name on the level of the other names mentioned really.
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Old 05-10-2012, 09:58 PM   #49
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Cena's been their "franchise player" from pretty much the moment they decided he was going to be "the guy", him beating everybody is a by-product of that. If WWE really thought Punk was that guy, don't doubt for a second that he'd get the same treatment. And Orton is pretty much untouchable at this point, he's the #2 guy behind Cena out of all of the "full-timers". If he wants to, he'll still be winning world titles and main eventing in 5 years. We can't say the same thing about Punk with any kind of certainty. And none of those guys are household names outside of Rock and maybe Brock.
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Old 05-10-2012, 10:01 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blakeamus View Post
What I am getting at is people who has their feeligns influenced ONLY on numbers.
Really? And who are these imaginary people?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CSL View Post
Cena's been their "franchise player" from pretty much the moment they decided he was going to be "the guy", him beating everybody is a by-product of that. If WWE really thought Punk was that guy, don't doubt for a second that he'd get the same treatment. And Orton is pretty much untouchable at this point, he's the #2 guy behind Cena out of all of the "full-timers". If he wants to, he'll still be winning world titles and main eventing in 5 years. We can't say the same thing about Punk with any kind of certainty. And none of those guys are household names outside of Rock and maybe Brock.
Yes, but you see, you're using logic.
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Old 05-10-2012, 10:07 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by CSL View Post
Cena's been their "franchise player" from pretty much the moment they decided he was going to be "the guy", him beating everybody is a by-product of that. If WWE really thought Punk was that guy, don't doubt for a second that he'd get the same treatment. And Orton is pretty much untouchable at this point, he's the #2 guy behind Cena out of all of the "full-timers". If he wants to, he'll still be winning world titles and main eventing in 5 years. We can't say the same thing about Punk with any kind of certainty. And none of those guys are household names outside of Rock and maybe Brock.
I'm not debating anything you say here. My only point is that Punk isn't on Cena's level because the WWE doesn't want him to be, or see that value in him. Orton is untouchable, you're right. The WWE decided in 2002-03 that Cena & Orton were gonna be the big stars of this era. The WWE really hasn't gotten behind anybody new in such a big way since, so to blame Punk and say "Oh, he isn't on there level". Well, of course not, he hasn't gotten that multi year push. I don't know if he'll get to Cena's status or not, but I definitely think he could surpass Orton with time, as he's much more versatile.
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Old 05-10-2012, 10:23 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by blake639raw View Post
I'm not debating anything you say here. My only point is that Punk isn't on Cena's level because the WWE doesn't want him to be, or see that value in him. Orton is untouchable, you're right. The WWE decided in 2002-03 that Cena & Orton were gonna be the big stars of this era. The WWE really hasn't gotten behind anybody new in such a big way since, so to blame Punk and say "Oh, he isn't on there level". Well, of course not, he hasn't gotten that multi year push. I don't know if he'll get to Cena's status or not, but I definitely think he could surpass Orton with time, as he's much more versatile.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CSL View Post
If WWE really thought Punk was that guy, don't doubt for a second that he'd get the same treatment.
you seem to think making stars is as simple as pushing them for as long and as hard as possible and that couldn't be further from the truth. If CM Punk was destined to be the next huge professional wrestling superstar on "that scale", we would have seen it happen by now. You don't need to push a guy forever to get there, the guy will have something, it will click and then it snowballs. This isn't a slate on Punk as you seem to think it is, he's just never going to be "that guy". You can count on your fingers the guys in history that ever have been. And I don't at all see how Punk is "much more" versatile than Orton. I'd say he cuts a better heel promo and is probably more consistent in terms of match quality. That's about it. As for surpassing him, I highly doubt it. Listen to the reaction Orton gets despite the fact he's essentially been filling holes for the last 9-12 months whilst Punk has been having the push of his life. Kind of says it all.
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Old 05-10-2012, 10:35 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gertner View Post
You do when people claim that Daniel Bryan is this huge sensation, should be main eventing, some people saying he's a "franchise player", when it's completely obvious that he isn't a ratings draw at all. You shouldn't be losing viewers in your main events.
As a fan, I still don't have to worry about the numbers. I can like a certain guy without knowing whether or not he's a ratings draw. If I'm a fan of someone, I'll tune in to watch no matter what he's doing.

That is, he would be a draw for me and I still wouldn't have to care about the ratings one bit.
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Old 05-10-2012, 10:40 PM   #54
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he's not saying that the numbers affect whether he likes Daniel Bryan or not, he already dislikes him, he counteracts with numbers to those who claim that he should be WWE's top guy, being pushed to the moon and so forth. Just in quite a robust way. Only a bunch of fans of CM Punk and Daniel Bryan appear to want to take exception to this and see it as damning slate as a whole. If the thread consisted of Gertner telling everybody how they're bland vanilla midgets with nothing to offer, I could understand most of the responses.
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Old 05-10-2012, 10:44 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CSL View Post
you seem to think making stars is as simple as pushing them for as long and as hard as possible and that couldn't be further from the truth. If CM Punk was destined to be the next huge professional wrestling superstar on "that scale", we would have seen it happen by now. You don't need to push a guy forever to get there, the guy will have something, it will click and then it snowballs. This isn't a slate on Punk as you seem to think it is, he's just never going to be "that guy". You can count on your fingers the guys in history that ever have been. And I don't at all see how Punk is "much more" versatile than Orton. I'd say he cuts a better heel promo and is probably more consistent in terms of match quality. That's about it. As for surpassing him, I highly doubt it. Listen to the reaction Orton gets despite the fact he's essentially been filling holes for the last 9-12 months whilst Punk has been having the push of his life. Kind of says it all.
It's just that Cena has to be the least liked top babyface ever. Once he became a main eventer, they dropped everything from his act that got him over so big in the first place. If any other top babyface got the reactions he got, they would have been depushed. Cena has got booed by half the crowd for years, and they play it off by saying he's "controversial." No matter how much they try, nobody really see's him on the level of The Rock or Hogan. I'm not saying that Punk is necessarily the "next big thing", or anything like that, but at least he's a babyface that doesn't get booed out of every building. No avenue of business has increased with Cena on top besides merch sales. And also, I don't believe that all it takes is a big push to get to the top. However, that's pretty much what they have done with Cena really. Austin, Hogan, Rock, or none of those guys had to win as much as Cena did to make a name. It just seems that the WWE doesn't know how to build stars longterm anymore, and there plan with Cena was just to have him plow through everybody, instead of listening to the crowds.
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Old 05-10-2012, 10:45 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CSL View Post
he's not saying that the numbers affect whether he likes Daniel Bryan or not, he already dislikes him, he counteracts with numbers to those who claim that he should be WWE's top guy, being pushed to the moon and so forth. Just in quite a robust way. Only a bunch of fans of CM Punk and Daniel Bryan appear to want to take exception to this and see it as damning slate as a whole. If the thread consisted of Gertner telling everybody how they're bland vanilla midgets with nothing to offer, I could understand most of the responses.

I know he doesn't like Bryan, and I never said Bryan was a franchise player. But I don't have to look at the numbers as a fan because I'm going to tune in when someone I like is featured whether lots of others do or not.
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Old 05-10-2012, 10:49 PM   #57
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I know he doesn't like Bryan, and I never said Bryan was a franchise player. But I don't have to look at the numbers as a fan because I'm going to tune in when someone I like is featured whether lots of others do or not.
Yeah, pretty much. I would never argue that Daniel Bryan is a franchise player. Anybody who says he is is delusional. However, he fills a void left when Benoit died. He's an old school technician, who appeals to a niche. A good guy to have around, very talented, but not interesting to the casual fan. At the end of the day, I like who I like. Justin Bieber sells more records than Testament, it doesn't necessarily mean that he's better.
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Old 05-10-2012, 10:59 PM   #58
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It's just that Cena has to be the least liked top babyface ever. Once he became a main eventer, they dropped everything from his act that got him over so big in the first place. If any other top babyface got the reactions he got, they would have been depushed. Cena has got booed by half the crowd for years, and they play it off by saying he's "controversial." No matter how much they try, nobody really see's him on the level of The Rock or Hogan. I'm not saying that Punk is necessarily the "next big thing", or anything like that, but at least he's a babyface that doesn't get booed out of every building. No avenue of business has increased with Cena on top besides merch sales. And also, I don't believe that all it takes is a big push to get to the top. However, that's pretty much what they have done with Cena really. Austin, Hogan, Rock, or none of those guys had to win as much as Cena did to make a name. It just seems that the WWE doesn't know how to build stars longterm anymore, and there plan with Cena was just to have him plow through everybody, instead of listening to the crowds.
Ok, well, maybe Hogan did, but times were different back then. Plus, people weren't sick to death of him winning all the time.
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Old 05-10-2012, 11:00 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by blake639raw View Post
It's just that Cena has to be the least liked top babyface ever. Once he became a main eventer, they dropped everything from his act that got him over so big in the first place. If any other top babyface got the reactions he got, they would have been depushed. Cena has got booed by half the crowd for years, and they play it off by saying he's "controversial." No matter how much they try, nobody really see's him on the level of The Rock or Hogan. I'm not saying that Punk is necessarily the "next big thing", or anything like that, but at least he's a babyface that doesn't get booed out of every building. No avenue of business has increased with Cena on top besides merch sales. And also, I don't believe that all it takes is a big push to get to the top. However, that's pretty much what they have done with Cena really. Austin, Hogan, Rock, or none of those guys had to win as much as Cena did to make a name. It just seems that the WWE doesn't know how to build stars longterm anymore, and there plan with Cena was just to have him plow through everybody, instead of listening to the crowds.
about the Cena booing stuff (gonna go all science right now, well for #1 anyway):

1. booing is a much deeper sound than a cheer coming from anybody. 2,000 people booing (especially when it's mostly made up of 18-30 year old males) in a 10,000 people strong crowd is always going come across really quite loud. This doesn't mean it's a majority, half or any hugely significant number of people except for in certain situations (see: against Rock, in Chicago against Punk, in a "smart" city, the Mania crowd made up from across the world etc)

2. most of those booing Cena these days don't even know why they're doing it (check out everytime he does something unexpected/"cool" and check out the pops (worked) before some of them realize they're supposed to be booing, you know, because it's cool and stuff)

3. if John Cena was around in the Hogan era that you mention, he'd have been a monster. Vice versa if Hogan was just coming through today (he'd get "The Cena Pop")

4. the amount of merch he shifts pretty much speaks for itself in terms of just how popular he is. The vast majority of the people as far as I can see that boo Cena are internet/smart/wannabe smart/follow the crowd fans. WWE's paying audience in terms of live gates, merch, PPV buys etc is mostly made from the casual/non smart fan. The amount of casual male fans I come across who are Cena fans always "pleasantly" surprises me.

5. I'll admit, I'd love to see him turn heel, I've said for years that with the amount of ammunition/natural build he has for a heel turn, it could be incredible. But it has nothing to really do with listening to the crowds. What good does it do turning a guy heel just because small parts of the crowd want to regularly boo him, only for the next top guy to start getting booed by the same people because now he's the popular blue eye going up against what would probably be a "very cool" heel in John Cena? When it comes down to it, the boos don't really mean anything.

Quote:
Originally Posted by screech View Post
I know he doesn't like Bryan, and I never said Bryan was a franchise player. But I don't have to look at the numbers as a fan because I'm going to tune in when someone I like is featured whether lots of others do or not.
and I don't think you'll find anything from Gertner in this thread that says you can't or shouldn't do that
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Old 05-10-2012, 11:26 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gertner View Post
CM Punk vs. Daniel Bryan and Lord Tensai in the overrun actually lost viewers – 105,000 for a 2.94 rating. It’s almost impossible to lose viewers in the overrun because you’ve got people tuning into the USA Network for their next show.


Feel free to blow me at your will.

Dude, the reason this shat stinks is because of that wannabe Jap. That damn Jap Albert is the worst thing to happen to pro rasslin since I was banned from the C-fed here.
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Old 05-10-2012, 11:31 PM   #61
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But Gertner still likes Dean Ambrose, right?
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Old 05-10-2012, 11:32 PM   #62
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I had a big response typed up, and my connection messed up, and I can't be arsed to type it up again. I will say though that as far as his merch sales go, he probably has more merch than anybody out there today, so of course his merch is gonna fly off the shelves. His main demo is kids, even if he does have some adult fans, so of course mommy and daddy are gonna buy little Jimmy the new Cena shirt that comes out every month or so. Not to mention the hats, wristbands, backpacks, ect, ect.

As far as a heel turn, I agree. If they turned him into a "cool" heel, it would be pointless. My idea was always to turn him, and keep him as the franchise and pretty much the same, but have him act oblivious to the boos. Have Vince back him and follow him around everywhere, decked out in all the Cena gear, from head to toe, being his personal cheerleader. The perfect time for this would have been the Punk feud, if it wasn't for the Rock thing on the horizon.
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Old 05-10-2012, 11:47 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by blake639raw View Post
I had a big response typed up, and my connection messed up, and I can't be arsed to type it up again. I will say though that as far as his merch sales go, he probably has more merch than anybody out there today, so of course his merch is gonna fly off the shelves. His main demo is kids, even if he does have some adult fans, so of course mommy and daddy are gonna buy little Jimmy the new Cena shirt that comes out every month or so. Not to mention the hats, wristbands, backpacks, ect, ect.
again, his amount of merch goes in hand with him being the top guy, which is a by-product of his popularity/star power/"it factor", which is why he became a "franchise player" in the first place. You think all of those things fly off the shelves if they put anybody else's name on there? You think if Kofi Kingston had the same amount of merch knocking around that he'd do a tenth of Cena's numbers? Because believe me if that was the case, they'd do it, look at Zack Ryder and how quickly his stuff started coming out as soon as he gained momentum.

You're allowed to dislike the guy if you want, you don't need to create reasons to do so.
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Old 05-11-2012, 01:12 AM   #64
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since you're asking:

John Cena
Randy Orton
The Rock
The Undertaker
Triple H
Brock Lesnar
unfortunately only two of these people are really active. would love to see the last four in a fatal 4 way at mania tho
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Old 05-11-2012, 02:07 AM   #65
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Can anyone mention how the Nielson ratings are pretty much BS these days?

A lot of people on this board watch Raw through a stream or later on through a stream. Those who don't watch it live will watch it on DVR, then those who miss it will catch the important parts through TPWW or other dirtsheets.

Im going to say that Raw has fucking sucked since Extreme Rules, but this is going to be a lull period for the company. They need to build new people (Brodus, Tensai, RyBack) then they are going to push at Summerslam, then go through another lull until the next WM season.
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Old 05-11-2012, 02:12 AM   #66
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IMO

Have Orton play a more vital part in the company over the summer and not be in Smackdown matches.

If you want to get Tensai over, stop pretending he's Japanese and have him speak against Punk and Orton throughout the summer.
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Old 05-11-2012, 02:21 AM   #67
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When Cena gets back from his divorce shit, make him heel. Have him Albert and Orton claim that the WWE is their's.

Have them go against the people like Punk, Daniel Bryan, and whoever else want to claim the WWE as the "new" place for actual wrestlers.

Punk and Bryan already have enough clout to make them look like legit competition to Orton and Cena.
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Old 05-11-2012, 02:51 AM   #68
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Ok Gertner wins. Now what?
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Old 05-11-2012, 04:38 AM   #69
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I don't really get the point of this thread. We've established that Lord Tensai is a terrible draw and...
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Old 05-11-2012, 05:50 AM   #70
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Blowjobs are blowjobs, whether it's 2, or 20.
Handjobs aren't blowjobs just because 2 people say they are.
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Old 05-11-2012, 08:41 AM   #71
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You guys realize that the ratings are just pol who watched the whole thing live or on.DVD in the first 24 hours without fast forwarding or changing the channel.
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Old 05-11-2012, 08:48 AM   #72
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You realise that someone just said that, right?
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Old 05-11-2012, 08:59 AM   #73
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Wink
Quote:
Originally Posted by Indifferent Clox View Post
You guys realize that the ratings are just pol who watched the whole thing live or on.DVD in the first 24 hours without fast forwarding or changing the channel.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avenger View Post
You realise that someone just said that, right?
Nobody mentioned the ratings for people watching on.DVD in the first 24 hours.
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Old 05-11-2012, 09:08 AM   #74
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I am guessing people tuned away because they realized the was going to be no HHH/Cena/Brock that night.
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Old 05-11-2012, 09:42 AM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by screech View Post
As a fan, I still don't have to worry about the numbers. I can like a certain guy without knowing whether or not he's a ratings draw. If I'm a fan of someone, I'll tune in to watch no matter what he's doing.

That is, he would be a draw for me and I still wouldn't have to care about the ratings one bit.
I don't really get the problem or disconnect. People on here have been trying to pretend these guys are big figures for WWE, including trying to correlate drawing power to them. Gertner is saying "hey guys, remember when you said x? lol."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Indifferent Clox View Post
You guys realize that the ratings are just pol who watched the whole thing live or on.DVD in the first 24 hours without fast forwarding or changing the channel.
Not entirely true.
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Old 05-11-2012, 10:02 AM   #76
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Who the fuck has correlated drawing power to Punk and Bryan beyond anything other than the immediate spike CM Punk did create in a PPV buyrate? There's love for Punk and Bryan here out the ass, but I don't think anyone's ever come in and said "Punk and Bryan are proven mega-draws."
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Old 05-11-2012, 11:01 AM   #77
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The term "Franchise Players" has been used by a couple of people though. Erroneously, but still used.
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Old 05-11-2012, 11:07 AM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XL View Post
The term "Franchise Players" has been used by a couple of people though. Erroneously, but still used.
More than a couple.

Err...I mean, nobody has ever said that, ever!
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Old 05-11-2012, 11:21 AM   #79
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I've never seen that, in truth. I must not have been in those threads.
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Old 05-11-2012, 11:21 AM   #80
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Quote:
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Nobody mentioned the ratings for people watching on.DVD in the first 24 hours.
I'm slightly interested in the ratings for people watching 24 on DVD during Daniel Bryan matches.
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