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Old 01-04-2017, 09:04 AM   #361
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I'd much prefer Reigns beating Owens in 2 minutes ala Goldberg as a terrified Jericho looks on from the shark cage than I would Owens and Reigns wrestle another formulaic 15 minute match.

Jericho not being able to help could also be used to stoke the flames for Jericho/Owens at Mania too.
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Old 01-04-2017, 10:01 AM   #362
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Reigns just needs not to talk that much. He "tries" to be cool. Aesthetically (well in a audibility sense) I believe you need the vocal males on your side, in order to have a good production of his character. That will make him the complete package, when he has the vocal adult males on his side.

At the end of the day, when you have some guy trying to remember lines that just don't come naturally to him, it loses PART of the audience no matter what. Let Roman be Roman.
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Old 01-04-2017, 10:19 AM   #363
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Originally Posted by Noid View Post
I'm actually on-board with Reigns as a double-champion. There is no way that Roman Reigns is ever going to be the beloved babyface Vince wants him to be until he turns heel and has a very cool run as the top guy on the brand, but if you're going to push him, at least push him unironically. Since he was "annointed," Reigns has been a part of some pretty farcical stuff. He won the 2015 Royal Rumble in an abysmal Rumble, even if you knew what they were trying to do. But then he got his ass kicked by Brock, he won the belt back in a tournament, lost it a few seconds later, won it back, lost it via ridiculous Rumble antics, then won it back and lost it again.

Reigns has not been booked well. They really went balls-in with him two years ago, but since then it has all been angle this, angle that. He will get booed wherever he goes, but as long as you put faces against him, there is someone to cheer. Reigns can be a heel on an almost psychic level. But at least try to make him look like an ass-kicking god. That match with Owens should be complete destruction. The "Reigns can really work guys, see" approach hasn't earned him any adoration from the fans. This is especially urgent if you are building him towards Goldberg.
I think Reigns was a victim of some bad timing. The whole Rumble 2015 thing was purely a result of smarks hijacking the show because their bearded hero wasn't going over. I don't think that was bad booking, other than maybe they should have put the Rumble in another city. But who could predict that would happen?

The 2016 stuff was just an issue with injuries and needing to move pieces around to get to new matches. If you look at his run with the title post Mania he was looking strong, then the wellness thing derailed things plus they needed to split the titles for the brand split. I think if he goes over Owens strong and gets a real run he'll be even more popular than he already is. There will still be boos, but those people will booo anything, you know you have their money no matter what is done.
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Old 01-04-2017, 10:48 AM   #364
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The CyNick View Post
I think Reigns was a victim of some bad timing. The whole Rumble 2015 thing was purely a result of smarks hijacking the show because their bearded hero wasn't going over. I don't think that was bad booking, other than maybe they should have put the Rumble in another city. But who could predict that would happen?

The 2016 stuff was just an issue with injuries and needing to move pieces around to get to new matches. If you look at his run with the title post Mania he was looking strong, then the wellness thing derailed things plus they needed to split the titles for the brand split. I think if he goes over Owens strong and gets a real run he'll be even more popular than he already is. There will still be boos, but those people will booo anything, you know you have their money no matter what is done.
The problem was Vince made a bad call and Reigns paid the price for it just as the talent usually does when the promoter makes a bad call. As for going over Owens strong what difference does that make? According to you Owens wasn't champiion material to begin with and therefore Reigns goingover strong over a "nobody" is irrelevant. Might as well put Ellsworth in Owens spot by your reckoning because they are of the same caliber.
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Old 01-04-2017, 12:06 PM   #365
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But who could predict that would happen?
Anyone with half a brain would've seen it coming from a mile away as soon as Bryan was put in the Rumble match in December. You don't take your #1 or #2 babyface (second maybe to Cena) at the time, who is coming back from injury, put him in the Rumble and have him lose the Rumble because you have some new jacked up toy (Reigns) who you (incorrectly) believe will be a bigger star. At the very least, if Bryan doesn't win the Rumble, you find a way to put him in the WM main event that year. This whole mistake was easily forseeable and Reigns' failure lies strictly with Vince McMahon and his own arrogance and/or delusions.
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Old 01-04-2017, 12:16 PM   #366
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Yeah we all had it predicted. I mean we are but lowly Meltzer sheep,,,,,,,, but I specifically remember everyone being quite adamant that Roman was fucked if they pushed him too hard in the rumble.
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Old 01-04-2017, 12:35 PM   #367
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They should just have waited on Bryan's return if they wanted to go with Roman. You could even build it into the plot of The Authority being against him (I.e. They delayed his clearance to wrestle purposefully until after the Rumble).
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Old 01-04-2017, 12:39 PM   #368
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So sad we never got that Brock vs Bryan match.
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Old 01-04-2017, 12:42 PM   #369
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Philadelphia was going to boo Roman anyway, but putting Bryan in the Rumble anyway only to have him dumped out in minutes was just a massive fuck you to the audience.
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Old 01-04-2017, 12:43 PM   #370
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There were just so many better things they could've done, all without shitting on Bryan or the fans, especially if they wanted to get Reigns over long term.
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Old 01-04-2017, 12:45 PM   #371
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To say that what happened wasn't foreseeable is either just incredibly stupid or trolling... oh wait... it's Cynick. He fits both.
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Old 01-04-2017, 12:46 PM   #372
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I'm certain that Goldust entering immediately after Bryan's elimination with "SHATTERED DREAMS" appearing on the screen was intentional.
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Old 01-04-2017, 01:09 PM   #373
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Roman Reigns was booked to go over Daniel Bryan the next month clean. Just throwing that out there for anyone who forgot.

Also, like... every babyface smark favorite over the following year. lol
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Old 01-04-2017, 01:12 PM   #374
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Imagine if they'd decided to just hold off on Bryan until after WM31?

There's a chance he'd still be wrestling.
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Old 01-04-2017, 01:14 PM   #375
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I thought his neck was already fucked up and it was inevitable anyway.
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Old 01-04-2017, 01:24 PM   #376
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It was. I'm glad he picked up another injury when he did so they could get him checked out and stop him from doing further damage.

But fuck, if they bring him in after WM31 there's a chance he's fighting Brock at SummerSlam without knowing how much damage it would do for him.
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Old 01-04-2017, 01:25 PM   #377
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What I'm trying to say is: Vince McMahon is a genius who saved the life of the internet's favorite wrestler and he deserves a Nobel Peace Prize.
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Old 01-04-2017, 03:57 PM   #378
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With the way the booking is going, you know you aren't getting Lesnar or Goldberg winning the Rumble. They are going to Mania to go one on one. I think at this point its gonna be Cena vs Undertaker at Mania, which might actually be for the WWE Championship. I think Cena might actually go over at the Rumble having him tie Flair. So that leaves who goes to Mania to fight for the title. I can't really see RR going over KO in the Universal Championship but hey who the fuck knows. I think its very apparent that Raw is going to have the winner of the RR. The way its being booked I see either Seth Rollins winning the Rumble or in a swerve move, maybe Finn Balor if he is ready making a return and winning. Highly doubt option #2. The only way Rollins wouldn't be going over is they actually go back to the program of HHH costing him the title back in August. Which in that case they meet at Mania. If that happens who the fuck knows who wins the rumble, probably James Ellsworth. The booking as of late has been pretty sporadic and shitty.
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Old 01-04-2017, 03:58 PM   #379
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Old 01-04-2017, 04:31 PM   #380
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So sad we never got that Brock vs Bryan match.
Would have just been the same as Cena-Brock was since Vince never planned that match to be anything but a brutal squash by Brock.

Even after Mania 30, Vince still wasn't a fan of Bryan as champ and was just going to feed him to Lesnar to boost Lesnar's Final Boss aura. Probably would have gone right back to the mid-card if it wasn't for his injury derailing those plans. The booking of Cena-Lesnar afterwards did imply Vince being upset at having to use Cena for the squash since Cena pretty much shrugged off any effects of it very quickly.
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Old 01-04-2017, 07:03 PM   #381
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The problem was Vince made a bad call and Reigns paid the price for it just as the talent usually does when the promoter makes a bad call. As for going over Owens strong what difference does that make? According to you Owens wasn't champiion material to begin with and therefore Reigns goingover strong over a "nobody" is irrelevant. Might as well put Ellsworth in Owens spot by your reckoning because they are of the same caliber.
I wouldn't say Owens is a nobody, I think he's a good hand. I just mean that at some point a Babyface should overcome the odds and get the job done. This is Reigns' chance to do that, and then carry the momentum to Mania and likely beyond.

The promoter made the right call, it's just the fans decided to hijack the show. Daniel Bryan was at best an injury prone star at that point, and at worst someone who's career was very limited. WWE had already the spent the better part of the year leading up to 30 pushing Bryan. To spend that same time and energy on a guy who was even more broken down would have been terrible use of valuable TV time. Vince made the right call to pick the next guy in line. But the fans in the arena that night weren't smart enough to understand the call that was being made. Financial results will tell you WWE made the right call with Reigns.
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Old 01-04-2017, 07:04 PM   #382
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Originally Posted by BigCrippyZ View Post
Anyone with half a brain would've seen it coming from a mile away as soon as Bryan was put in the Rumble match in December. You don't take your #1 or #2 babyface (second maybe to Cena) at the time, who is coming back from injury, put him in the Rumble and have him lose the Rumble because you have some new jacked up toy (Reigns) who you (incorrectly) believe will be a bigger star. At the very least, if Bryan doesn't win the Rumble, you find a way to put him in the WM main event that year. This whole mistake was easily forseeable and Reigns' failure lies strictly with Vince McMahon and his own arrogance and/or delusions.
The arrogance that made him the most successful person in his industry? Yeah, probably shouldn't trust that guy's opinion.

Check out my previous post about Bryan's heath. It will address your lack of understanding of the situation.
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Old 01-04-2017, 07:06 PM   #383
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Originally Posted by Dastardly Dale Newstead View Post
Yeah we all had it predicted. I mean we are but lowly Meltzer sheep,,,,,,,, but I specifically remember everyone being quite adamant that Roman was fucked if they pushed him too hard in the rumble.
I was all for Reigns as the next top guy. The time was right to create a new star. That is how to keep the business going. Trying to recreate magic from the year before would have been a retread, and besides, Daniel couldn't carry the weight of the company on his back.
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Old 01-04-2017, 07:08 PM   #384
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Originally Posted by XL View Post
They should just have waited on Bryan's return if they wanted to go with Roman. You could even build it into the plot of The Authority being against him (I.e. They delayed his clearance to wrestle purposefully until after the Rumble).
That's a fair criticism, but I think it also made sense to get additional subs from the people who wanted to see Daniel win. It told a better story with Daniel in the match and coming up short. All Cinderella stories eventually end at midnight.
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Old 01-04-2017, 07:11 PM   #385
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Originally Posted by BigCrippyZ View Post
There were just so many better things they could've done, all without shitting on Bryan or the fans, especially if they wanted to get Reigns over long term.
How is it shitting in the fans? Because a different guy won? Do you follow sports? Sometimes your team falls short. Plus I'm sure WWE would have been happy to continue to capitalize on the work they put into making Daniel a top star, but his body failed him and the company. Why go back to that well?
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Old 01-04-2017, 07:11 PM   #386
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Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan View Post
I thought his neck was already fucked up and it was inevitable anyway.
Yes! Hold the phone, we agree on something. Scotch is on me!
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Old 01-04-2017, 07:29 PM   #387
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Originally Posted by #BrotherVito DELETED View Post
Imagine if they'd decided to just hold off on Bryan until after WM31?

There's a chance he'd still be wrestling.
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Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan View Post
I thought his neck was already fucked up and it was inevitable anyway.
If I remember, Bryan mentioned once or twice (maybe in his book) about pushing himself even harder prior to his last neck injury because he wanted to erase all doubt Vince had in him as a potential mega star. That was a main reason why he didn't slow down at all or change up his moves and style to be more slower/safer.

WWE tried to pass off several times in interviews about them always being behind Bryan's rise to mega stardom and his Mania 30 push when others have said neither was the case. Them crushing Cesaro's rise out of spite for what the crowds did for Bryan pretty much proved they don't want crowds to pick mega stars and only accept what they hand pick for stars.
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Old 01-04-2017, 09:31 PM   #388
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Originally Posted by The CyNick View Post
The arrogance that made him the most successful person in his industry? Yeah, probably shouldn't trust that guy's opinion.
What industry is that exactly? Television? Or is it movies? Or is it the entertainment industry? Regardless, he's not the most successful person in any of those industries.

It's certainly not professional wrestling. Vince isn't in the professional wrestling industry. He routinely insists so himself.

Nor is it "sports entertainment" because that's not an actual industry. It's a term he created so he could claim industry superiority while being able to differentiate himself from the competitors in his actual industry (pro wrestling) and attempt to be taken seriously by those who actually are leaders in the television, movie and entertainment industries he so desperately wants to be a part of.
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Old 01-04-2017, 09:41 PM   #389
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Originally Posted by BigCrippyZ View Post
What industry is that exactly? Television? Or is it movies? Or is it the entertainment industry? Regardless, he's not the most successful person in any of those industries.

It's certainly not professional wrestling. Vince isn't in the professional wrestling industry. He routinely insists so himself.

Nor is it "sports entertainment" because that's not an actual industry. It's a term he created so he could claim industry superiority while being able to differentiate himself from the competitors in his actual industry (pro wrestling) and attempt to be taken seriously by those who actually are leaders in the television, movie and entertainment industries he so desperately wants to be a part of.
He's had multiple shows in the top ten of cable ratings every week for nearly 20 years. How many people in the TV industry can claim that? Keep swinging kid.
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Old 01-04-2017, 09:51 PM   #390
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Originally Posted by The CyNick View Post
How is it shitting in the fans? Because a different guy won? Do you follow sports? Sometimes your team falls short. Plus I'm sure WWE would have been happy to continue to capitalize on the work they put into making Daniel a top star, but his body failed him and the company. Why go back to that well?
We're not talking about sports. We're talking about a scripted pro wrestling event.

It's shitting on the fans because after Bryan's return from injury, the fans clearly wanted Bryan instead of Reigns in the main event at WM. Regardless of Bryan's actual injury situation, if WWE was concerned about his health/safety/ability to continue on, then there's no reason to put him in the Rumble at all, especially if you want Roman to eventually get over.

They could have even still put both guys in the WM main event against Lesnar even if Bryan's health was an issue. Bryan was in a ladder match that night after all. Just because you don't want the title on Bryan long term (for health or any other reasons) doesn't mean he can't be in the main event at WM and/or hold it for a short amount of time. Then you can move Bryan on to something else if he's still able to go health wise.

Not to mention Reigns' push into the main event scene was very forced and rushed, which although not related to Bryan, was an additional reason why fans shit on Reigns' initial main event push.
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Old 01-04-2017, 10:15 PM   #391
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Feel like Reigns had decent momentum going until Summer Slam against Orton, then got hurt. The minute he came back they strapped a rocket to him and he's been mercilessly rejected since. In seemingly every town
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Old 01-04-2017, 10:23 PM   #392
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The CyNick View Post
He's had multiple shows in the top ten of cable ratings every week for nearly 20 years. How many people in the TV industry can claim that? Keep swinging kid.
I can think of at least 10 off the top of my head, but I actually work daily in film, music and television and advise numerous execs, creators, producers and talent.

You said he is "the most successful person in his industry." He's not, at least not in the television production/creation side. In pro wrestling, sure, he's top dog, but like he says, he's not in the pro wrestling industry.
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Old 01-05-2017, 12:57 AM   #393
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He's quoted to telling Ted Turner he's in the entertainment business, and he's not the most successful person in entertainment.
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Old 01-05-2017, 03:37 AM   #394
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Vince is in entertainment like Hugh Hefner is in art photography.
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Old 01-05-2017, 08:10 AM   #395
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Originally Posted by Smelly Meatball View Post
Would have just been the same as Cena-Brock was since Vince never planned that match to be anything but a brutal squash by Brock.

Even after Mania 30, Vince still wasn't a fan of Bryan as champ and was just going to feed him to Lesnar to boost Lesnar's Final Boss aura. Probably would have gone right back to the mid-card if it wasn't for his injury derailing those plans. The booking of Cena-Lesnar afterwards did imply Vince being upset at having to use Cena for the squash since Cena pretty much shrugged off any effects of it very quickly.
I was hoping we would get the match at No Mercy before Reigns vs Lesnar.
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Old 01-09-2017, 12:00 PM   #396
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Originally Posted by BigCrippyZ View Post
We're not talking about sports. We're talking about a scripted pro wrestling event.

It's shitting on the fans because after Bryan's return from injury, the fans clearly wanted Bryan instead of Reigns in the main event at WM. Regardless of Bryan's actual injury situation, if WWE was concerned about his health/safety/ability to continue on, then there's no reason to put him in the Rumble at all, especially if you want Roman to eventually get over.

They could have even still put both guys in the WM main event against Lesnar even if Bryan's health was an issue. Bryan was in a ladder match that night after all. Just because you don't want the title on Bryan long term (for health or any other reasons) doesn't mean he can't be in the main event at WM and/or hold it for a short amount of time. Then you can move Bryan on to something else if he's still able to go health wise.

Not to mention Reigns' push into the main event scene was very forced and rushed, which although not related to Bryan, was an additional reason why fans shit on Reigns' initial main event push.
I don't think you grasp the concept of investing television time in a performer you don't think will be able to physically hold up against the demands of being champion. It's hard to have discussions with people like you when that very simple idea is lost.

I'll try anyway, because I'm a good guy like that.

When WWE puts together their Mania plans months in advance of the show, they invest massive amounts of precious TV time to make people care one way or the other about the talents that were heavily featured on Mania. Going into Mania 30, they had spent months and months of TV time with Daniel Bryan constantly being held down by The Authority. By the time Mania rolled around, they had made Daniel a cult hero, and fans were salivating to see him win. Through that investment of time, they expected to use that payoff to have this newly minted mega star carry the company. Unfortunately for Bryan, the weight was too much for his frame, and he physically broke down under the pressure. Essentially all that time WWE spent making Daniel Bryan the face of the company was a waste.

Fast forward to the next year and now Daniel says he can come back, but WWE is now gun shy to go all the way with him. The internal discussions were we wasted all last year making this guy, shouldn't we wait to see if his body can handle the grind before reinvesting in him. They instead went with a guy who was an up and comer that fans were into, and had broad enough shoulders to carry the company. The WWE even tried to appease the Daniel Bryan fans by giving him a spotlight win at Mania in a big match, albeit not the world title.

Sure, they could have just put the world title on him for a month again, but that would have wasted TV time that could have been used to get over new acts on top that would carry the company for e coming years (ie Reigns and Rollins). As it would turn out, WWE would be proven right when Daniel had to forfeit the IC title. Thank God they didn't waste a full second year of Mania build on a guy that couldn't handle the job.

The fans that don't understand this and to this day booo Reigns because of it, are dumb, ignorant, but they will continue to be loyal customers no matter what, so who cares what they do anyway?
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Old 01-09-2017, 12:03 PM   #397
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Originally Posted by BigCrippyZ View Post
I can think of at least 10 off the top of my head, but I actually work daily in film, music and television and advise numerous execs, creators, producers and talent.

You said he is "the most successful person in his industry." He's not, at least not in the television production/creation side. In pro wrestling, sure, he's top dog, but like he says, he's not in the pro wrestling industry.
You can name ten episodic storyline driven shows that have been top ten in prime time cable for 20 plus years? Curious to see the list.

Also even if you do have a list, it's still impressive, and Vince would be considered very successful at producing content.

His industry is sports entertainment, for which he has been King for decades. He also competes in the broader entertainment industry, of which he's not the King, but he's very very successful at it.
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Old 01-09-2017, 01:05 PM   #398
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Originally Posted by The CyNick View Post
You can name ten episodic storyline driven shows that have been top ten in prime time cable for 20 plus years? Curious to see the list.
No, but per your original question (that you're now changing, i.e., running from like a bitch) I can name 10 people in the TV industry who have had multiple shows in the top ten of cable ratings every week for nearly 20 years.

Just for your own reference, here's your original claim:

Quote:
Originally Posted by The CyNick View Post
He's had multiple shows in the top ten of cable ratings every week for nearly 20 years. How many people in the TV industry can claim that? Keep swinging kid.
Either you're an idiot who lacks comprehension skills or you're just a complete douchebag troll. Or maybe it's both. Yep, most likely both.
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Old 01-09-2017, 01:30 PM   #399
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His industry is sports entertainment, for which he has been King for decades. He also competes in the broader entertainment industry, of which he's not the King, but he's very very successful at it.


"Sports entertainment" is not an industry. Television, film, music, entertainment, sports, pro wrestling, those are actual industries with multiple entities competing against one another. "Sports entertainment" is a phrase made up by Vince for two reasons: 1. an attempt to sidestep the fact that the pro wrestling industry has a stigma attached to it, and 2. Vince's inability to be acknowledged and included with the creative and business elites in the larger entertainment industry.

If you want to claim that Vince works in the pro wrestling or entertainment industries, that's fine with me. He's definitely not the most successful person in the entertainment industry though, as you so incorrectly and ignorantly claimed.

Sure, you can say he's the most successful person in the pro wrestling industry. The problem is, Vince desperation to be acknowledged and included with the creative and business elites in the entertainment industry, he's repeatedly claimed he's not in, and has no interest in, the pro wrestling industry.

Now Vince can claim "superiority" over the "sports entertainment" industry. The sad part is, much like a child, you're naive and ignorant enough that you actually fell for and believe the con he's been selling to you.
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Old 01-09-2017, 01:41 PM   #400
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Originally Posted by BigCrippyZ View Post
No, but per your original question (that you're now changing, i.e., running from like a bitch) I can name 10 people in the TV industry who have had multiple shows in the top ten of cable ratings every week for nearly 20 years.

Just for your own reference, here's your original claim:



Either you're an idiot who lacks comprehension skills or you're just a complete douchebag troll. Or maybe it's both. Yep, most likely both.
When talking about shows, clearly I was referring to similar shows, which are episodic in nature. You could say there are a bunch of soaps that have been around way longer than RAW or SDL, but they are not in prime time, so not really a fair comparison. I'm sure there are some news or sports programs that have been on for decades, but those are not episodic, so completely different beast. I would the closest show to Vince's success with RAW and SDL is The Simpsons. I would also throw SNL in there, even though it's not episodic, they still have to create new characters every week. Of course SNL is not in prime time and has very little competition in its timeslot.

Regardless of your blind hatred for Vince, anyone with a brain can recognize he's in elite company when it comes to success creating TV content.

As for sports entertainment vs pro wrestling that's really semantics from Vince, he wanted to rebrand his industry to differentiate himself from his competition and make them seem inferior. Regardless, it's all one industry, and Vince has ruled it pretty much from day one.
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