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Old 10-07-2015, 12:58 PM   #241
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"Why would they put someone cleanly over John Cena if they didn't have a long term angle for them?"

"Lets ask Kevin Owens"
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Old 10-07-2015, 01:11 PM   #242
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see: Dale Newstead's post 3 or so posts before yours
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Old 10-07-2015, 02:41 PM   #243
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I got over excited an posted before reading the whole thread.
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Old 10-07-2015, 06:45 PM   #244
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Damian Rey View Post
So why would Daniel Bryan say otherwise in interviews both within and outside the company? CyNick's lame excuse was Bryan was protecting kayfabe, even though speaking about behind the scenes conversations breaks kayfabe.

So what reason does Daniel Bryan have to lie about the original pitch he received pertaining to his mania spot?
It's like Inception; kayfabe within kayfabe.
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Old 10-09-2015, 07:19 PM   #245
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smelly Meatball View Post
The main reason Bryan beat Cena cleanly was more due to Cena needing time off and WWE needing a top face to quickly take Cena's spot. Only reason Cena never got his chance to get a win back was because by the time the situation would be ripe for it, Bryan was getting derailed with injuries.

Source?!?! How do you know that this was the case?


Surely - if Cena needed some time off, there were other faces ahead of Bryan on the depth chart. Orton was still a face before the screw job, and CM Punk was a face if I recall correctly. So - why have Bryan go over Cena?


Even if alllllll of what you said is true (which likely isn't), you have to take into account what Anybody Thrilla said:


(i.e. If the WWE realized they fucked up, they made up for it by calling an audible and having Bryan go over at Mania......and so even then, they made things right).
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Old 10-09-2015, 07:24 PM   #246
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Noid View Post
If the plan was such a brilliant one, why didn't it draw bigger business?


Sorry guys - limits on my time but I'll try and respond to as many posts as possible.


I would argue that the plan was brilliant, and that the time period between Summerslam 2013 and Wrestlemania 30 was probably the hottest that the WWE had been in years. Not sure if the ratings reflected this at all (haven't checked), but the Daniel Bryan 'Yes!' movement was probably the most over thing that the WWE had in about a decade or so. Daniel Bryan became even more popular after fans (both marks and IWC) perceived him being held back.


Who knows where the business would be today if Bryan's career hadn't been derailed after Mania that year.
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Old 10-09-2015, 07:49 PM   #247
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorgeous Dale Newstead View Post
Kevin Owens went over John Cena clean and now he's in a middling feud with Ryback after jobbing back cleanly to Cena twice. Bryan certain "got the rub" but it wasn't the kind of positioning fans wanted. They wanted him to be "THE GUY" not some other 50/50 booked guy.

Plus this argument means fuck all anyways.... it's CyNick doing his best ONCE MORE to distract from the actual point. Say they got the Bryan thing right, and it was in the cards all along, that would honest to god be one thing I can think of they got right. They also had Bret Hart win wrestlemania 10 after calling an audible on that, and they proceeded to bungle up his title reign by treating him like a mid carder. Yes, WWE has the capability to do 1 out of every thousand things right, even if they do it in an absolutely horrendous way, and SOME HOW eventually get there. But the other 999 are done pretty badly and it leads to cheap, shoddily done t.v.

In saying that, there's a reason they're the only game in town. They've obviously done a lot of things right along the way, and in certain eras were able to ignite something meaningful. But between those eras and ever since, it's all (minus some shining light) pretty meandering crap. And unfortunately as older wrestling fans, all we have is shitty ring of honor to watch, or we have to watch Japanese wrestling (which I'm not all that into).

Heyman, I believe you'd be able to understand this analogy better than anyone. WWE is like the Toronto Maple Leafs. They are able to put forth an absolutely horrendous product, and not adapt to the current landscape of quality, and still turn a profit. So nothing really changes. And even when it SEEMS thing change, it's only slightly around the corner that the same mistakes will be made, because they don't need to be all that great to turn a profit and to keep making money.


I agree with what you're saying Dale, but you guys are also making it sound like it's CyNick's stance that the WWE can't be improved in any shape or form, and that everything they are doing right now is perfect.


I think CyNick is just saying that most fans are actually happy with the current product and that our opinion (IWC) is clearly in the minority. You can't use ratings as a 1:1 indicator since the product is consumed a lot differently in 2015 than say 1999-2005.


Having said all that, I do think the WWE needs to find a way to protect their emerging mid-card talents. Guys like Bray Wyatt, Rusev, Dean Ambrose, Roman Reigns, etc., aren't being maximized in my opinion.
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Old 10-09-2015, 07:50 PM   #248
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heyman View Post
Source?!?! How do you know that this was the case?


Surely - if Cena needed some time off, there were other faces ahead of Bryan on the depth chart. Orton was still a face before the screw job, and CM Punk was a face if I recall correctly. So - why have Bryan go over Cena?


Even if alllllll of what you said is true (which likely isn't), you have to take into account what Anybody Thrilla said:


(i.e. If the WWE realized they fucked up, they made up for it by calling an audible and having Bryan go over at Mania......and so even then, they made things right).
His elbow basically had a baseball-like swell going on at the time. Prior to the match, WWE was pulling him from house shows just so that it wouldn't get worse and let the Summerslam match be possible.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1...e-that-thought

CM Punk had just recently turned face and was busy with the Lesnar feud at the time while Orton likely was turning regardless of Cena's health status. Bryan winning the belt just made it a lot more convenient for the turn to happen with the cash-in right there.

The only real wildcard was how long Cena would be out since he has freakishly fast recovery and him wanting to be back as soon as possible. Think the WWE or Cena released videos of him training almost right after getting surgery. Once he actually came back, quickly replace Bryan as the focus of Authority and WWE title feuds.
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Old 10-09-2015, 10:00 PM   #249
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heyman View Post
I disagree. I can't find one thing wrong that he's said in this thread.


Granted - I think CyNick should atleast admit that the current WWE product can be improved, but aside from that, everything else he's said in this thread is 100% true.


I hate getting involved in something that I was never really a part of, but this thread has legitimately shocked me. I don't think CyNick has come across as arrogant or whatever at all. Really mind boggling stuff to me. Or are people in this thread just upset that CyNick flat out destroyed people's counter-arguments in this thread?


Weird weird stuff.
Thanks dude. You're a good man.

In all honesty there are plenty of things I see on WWE TV that are not what I would book or want to see. There are times guys are pushed that I dont agree with. However I just look at the show as a whole, and this is just my opinion here, but I found WWE to be much more enjoyable when I stopped reading dirt sheets. And I firmly believe if you dont like something, you should stop watching. That sends a bigger message. But for some reason people prefer to complain than just sit back and enjoy WWE for what it is.
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Old 10-09-2015, 10:05 PM   #250
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Damian Rey View Post
Heyman's stance on CyNick makes no sense when you read his current discussion thread and how CyNick thinks Rollin losing because he's a heel is good, the current roster's lack of stars is because of the performers not stepping up, and the wwe in general being booked just fine.
Booking is never perfect. I do however think WWE is far and away the best at it, so when they make a collective decision on a talent, I trust their judgment. But when I say something like that, it gets twisted into "WWE is perfect".

But I do honestly believe the talent is vastly inferior today than anytime in the history of sports entertainment. I dont know if its a by product of no competition, the whole thing about the millennium generation being uninspired to reach for success, or a combination of a bunch of things.
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Old 10-09-2015, 10:08 PM   #251
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heyman View Post
The most perplexing thing to me in this thread, is CyNick's stance on Daniel Bryan (the correct one I might add), vs. Everyone else's opinions.


At Summerslam 2013, Daniel Bryan didn't just beat John Cena.........he went over the guy cleanly. Period. Then, AFTER all that, we saw the Triple H/Randy Orton screw job on Bryan, along with the birth of The Authority.


How do you guys NOT see that event as the start of a long term angle? (with the obvious intention of Daniel Bryan ultimately going over?!?). Like holy fuck.


Don't get me wrong - I have a lot of respect for many of the posters in this thread (Dale Newstead, Noid, Damien Rey, etc., etc.), but lets face it. You guys flat out tasted CyNick's penis in this thread, and especially this argument.


If the WWE really had zero intention of pushing Daniel Bryan in a massive way, they would NOT have had him go over John Cena cleanly.


If we're operating under the assumption that, "Controversy sells," then do you NOT think that Dave Batista winning the Royal Rumble was one of the most ingenious things that the WWE has ever done? (knowing full well that backlash that would occur amongst both marks AND the IWC).


C'mon people.
There were times I thought I was the only one who saw things like that.

The problem is Dave Meltzer wrote 15,000 words about how "sources say Daniel was never supposed to go over, it heh heh, just sorta happened. And heh heh, ya know, plans change"
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Old 10-09-2015, 10:12 PM   #252
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heyman View Post
I completely agree with this 1000% percent.


The only thing I would have done differently, would be in having Daniel Bryan winning cleanly over Wyatt, and then having Bryan get screwed in the actual Royal Rumble (Bryan enters).


The WWE were lucky that Bryan was 'over' to such a large extent, that losing cleanly to Bray didn't hurt him, but I'm a fan of that type of booking. When you've got a hot star like that, you protect him as much as you can. No reason whatsoever to have Daniel jobbing to Bray.


Other than though, I agree with everything you said.
At the time I remember thinking that I thought they were setting up Wyatt to face Bryan down the line. He could use the whole I beat you before, now I'll do it for the Rumble. Would have been an effective angle for Bryan because he was always positioned as the underdog. Now here's a guy who Bryan actually lost to, and he has to find a way to beat him to hang on to the belt. Of course he would then beat Wyatt.

The thing I would have changed is actually have Bryan win at the Feb PPV to earn the shot, but I think they liked the concept of the fans forcing The Authority's hand. Which played in the idea of the "YES Movement"
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Old 10-09-2015, 10:14 PM   #253
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smelly Meatball View Post
The main reason Bryan beat Cena cleanly was more due to Cena needing time off and WWE needing a top face to quickly take Cena's spot. Only reason Cena never got his chance to get a win back was because by the time the situation would be ripe for it, Bryan was getting derailed with injuries.

Once Cena came back, Bryan was quickly put to the side and relegated to semi-minor status in the Authority feud. Crowd began to rebell once they saw the WWE didn't really cared for Bryan and wanted the focus on Cena vs Orton/Authority only. Got worse with the rebelling once it became obvious the WWE wanted Batista to get the big win over the Authority and not Bryan at Mania.
They could have easily just had Bryan lose or have a no contest and then have Orton come in to cash in MITB. The fact that they constantly screwed Bryan was part of the larger angle IMO.
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Old 10-09-2015, 10:19 PM   #254
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Noid View Post
Bryan beating Cena could be seen as many things. A trial, a grace, a good booking decision, an attempt at an immediate ratings spike, Cena needing time off. Granted, I've had the same conspiracy theory in my head before. Maybe, just maybe the WWE worked out that bad booking is the good booking. Maybe that's why they had Sheamus beat him in 18 seconds at WrestleMania 28? Brilliant. Maybe that's why they delayed his eventual rise by two years, despite knowing that his health couldn't have been great going into WrestleMania 31 when the best choice was to have him return and win the Rumble, so they didn't, but still put him in the match and had him drop out like an afterthought.

I'm running my sentences together here, but come on, guys. I love Heyman and do have some love for CyNick the human and the old poster, but the idea that it was a masterplan all along is pretty bullshit. Right down to them booking Orton vs. Bryan together until it couldn't probably ever do business again.

The only other time I had that same conspiracy "bad booking is the good booking" idea is when I saw The New Day start to gain traction as a heel group. No wonder Vince debuted them as bland babyfaces that could never win a match! It was the Rocky Maivia/Rock plan all along! Brilliant.

Then The New Day came out and said Vince legit thought that they would be over as faces. And there are countless other documented examples where Vince has been out of touch with reality. It's not moronic to assume that the WWE fucked up. Especially when you can see how the aftermath of it all affected the WWE's relationships with other performers, such as Batista and CM Punk (regardless of what their own egos had to do with things).

They legitimately sidetracked Bryan from the main feud which they were already dragging out. By the same token, if this were a master plan, the same thing would have been achieved by Dean Ambrose last year when he got pulled out of his feud with Seth Rollins to go against Bray Wyatt. He wasn't going to go away. But Bryan was just un-fuckable at that point.

CyNick's arguments revolve almost entirely around "Look at what happened when the WWE was critically successful! It was criticially successful, right? It must have been planned!" He beat Cena? That was huge. And it was an angle to build to something. No one is saying it wasn't. It's just that no one else is naive enough to give the WWE credit for giving someone a credible reverse push when they can't even push guys successfully.

And what good will it builds for the company to allow the credit of their product to be attributed to a conspiracy theory. It's not like NASA did a real moon landing to stage a fake.
My reasoning for the Bryan thing being planned is A) he beat Cena clean and B) The Authority screwed him left and right for MONTHS

If you dont want Bryan is the main event picture, you have him look good against Cena, but ultimately lose. Orton then cashes in MITB. Then and this is key, you would use Bryan to heat up Orton and put him over clean until Cena is back and can chase Orton.
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Old 10-09-2015, 10:23 PM   #255
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heyman View Post
Sorry guys - limits on my time but I'll try and respond to as many posts as possible.


I would argue that the plan was brilliant, and that the time period between Summerslam 2013 and Wrestlemania 30 was probably the hottest that the WWE had been in years. Not sure if the ratings reflected this at all (haven't checked), but the Daniel Bryan 'Yes!' movement was probably the most over thing that the WWE had in about a decade or so. Daniel Bryan became even more popular after fans (both marks and IWC) perceived him being held back.


Who knows where the business would be today if Bryan's career hadn't been derailed after Mania that year.
Exactly. Bryan was over huge at Mania. Its not like WWE planned for Bryan to get hurt and make the previous 8 months of build a waste of time.
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Old 10-10-2015, 02:26 AM   #256
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I think the issue isn't that Vince & Co. didn't see Bryan as a main event level talent at all, instead they just didn't see Bryan as a potential Wrestlemania main event headliner.

In other words, Vince & Co. realized they needed someone to fill the Cena void while he was out. They decided to have Bryan main event and beat Cena at Summerslam. Then they said, we'll screw Bryan out of the title for Bryan to have a brief main event program with Orton, "Authority", etc. until Cena gets back and then we'll move Bryan into another non-main event program or two (Wyatt and then Sheamus) in time for Mania.

Again, not that they didn't see Bryan as main event material at all, they just didn't view him as Wrestlemania main event, top of the card, headliner material.
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Old 10-10-2015, 02:44 AM   #257
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crippy has it right
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Old 10-11-2015, 08:36 PM   #258
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCrippyZ View Post
I think the issue isn't that Vince & Co. didn't see Bryan as a main event level talent at all, instead they just didn't see Bryan as a potential Wrestlemania main event headliner.

In other words, Vince & Co. realized they needed someone to fill the Cena void while he was out. They decided to have Bryan main event and beat Cena at Summerslam. Then they said, we'll screw Bryan out of the title for Bryan to have a brief main event program with Orton, "Authority", etc. until Cena gets back and then we'll move Bryan into another non-main event program or two (Wyatt and then Sheamus) in time for Mania.

Again, not that they didn't see Bryan as main event material at all, they just didn't view him as Wrestlemania main event, top of the card, headliner material.
This.

If you go and watch the Daniel Bryan "Monster" video, they don't even include the Cena vs. Bryan match in there. It cuts from Bryan "challenging" for the WWE Title (with no previous mention of his World Heavyweight Title win or subsequent WWE Title wins either), to getting screwed to his issues with The Authority. It's not one big glorious story.
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Old 10-12-2015, 09:44 AM   #259
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The CyNick View Post
My reasoning for the Bryan thing being planned is A) he beat Cena clean and B) The Authority screwed him left and right for MONTHS

If you dont want Bryan is the main event picture, you have him look good against Cena, but ultimately lose. Orton then cashes in MITB. Then and this is key, you would use Bryan to heat up Orton and put him over clean until Cena is back and can chase Orton.
After Bryan lost to Orton in HIAC he lost cleanly to Orton once more on Raw (or maybe smackdown) before getting deep into his feud with Wyatt
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Old 10-12-2015, 12:52 PM   #260
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"Why would they put someone cleanly over John Cena if they didn't have a long term angle for them?"

"Lets ask Kevin Owens"
Owens beating to Cena was to establish Owens as a top guy right off the bat. Again, would you prefer he was booked like Neville?
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Old 10-12-2015, 12:54 PM   #261
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After Bryan lost to Orton in HIAC he lost cleanly to Orton once more on Raw (or maybe smackdown) before getting deep into his feud with Wyatt
I dont recall the result of every single match, I just know more often than not, Bryan was the one winning matches, and when he did lose, he was MASSIVELY protected. Thats not how WWE books when they want to push someone out of the main event.

But whatever, yo're not going to change your mind despite a mountain of evidence. Its cool.
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Old 10-12-2015, 12:57 PM   #262
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Quote:
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This.

If you go and watch the Daniel Bryan "Monster" video, they don't even include the Cena vs. Bryan match in there. It cuts from Bryan "challenging" for the WWE Title (with no previous mention of his World Heavyweight Title win or subsequent WWE Title wins either), to getting screwed to his issues with The Authority. It's not one big glorious story.
That was just to make the Mania win seem like it was the first time he won the title. Regardless, you're still pointing to him getting screwed by The Authority constantly, which is clearly part of a large storyline.
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Old 10-12-2015, 01:01 PM   #263
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Quote:
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I dont recall the result of every single match, I just know more often than not, Bryan was the one winning matches, and when he did lose, he was MASSIVELY protected. Thats not how WWE books when they want to push someone out of the main event.

But whatever, yo're not going to change your mind despite a mountain of evidence. Its cool.
I only see a big mountain of theory
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Old 10-12-2015, 01:19 PM   #264
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I only see a big mountain of theory
Not theory when it actually happened.
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Old 10-12-2015, 01:20 PM   #265
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Old 10-12-2015, 01:21 PM   #266
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We aren't discussing if WrestleMania 30 happened.
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Old 10-12-2015, 08:08 PM   #267
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how is this thread still going on?
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Old 10-12-2015, 08:53 PM   #268
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I don't know. You, or whoever said it, was right. CyNick has a way, whether he's serious or not, of getting you to keep trying to reason with him long after it's clear that that isn't possible. Before you know it you're on page 7.
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Old 10-12-2015, 09:00 PM   #269
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I dont need people to reason with me. When I read guys like you bitch about the product non stop, it makes me glad that I dont agree with you, because I still look forward to watching RAW every week, hence why I continue to watch.

The ironic thing is guys like you actually cant take that I dont agree with the IWC sheep mentality that you buy into. Thats not meant as an insult to you individually, rather the group you.
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Old 10-12-2015, 09:09 PM   #270
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*Meltzer sheep
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Old 10-12-2015, 09:14 PM   #271
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In all honesty, it's fine that you enjoy the product. No one has a problem with that. But when you start to argue actual points about the merits of product and then do stuff like you're doing in that Rollins thread below (see: CyNick thread #217), people are going to point out how troll-ish you come off.
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Old 10-12-2015, 09:16 PM   #272
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I come off trollish for defending why I enjoy the product? Or why I dont buy into the theory that WWE is terrible at booking even though they continue to be wildly successful?

Interesting.
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Old 10-12-2015, 09:23 PM   #273
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WWE sheep.
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Old 10-12-2015, 09:36 PM   #274
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Quote:
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WWE sheep.
So you keep paying to read the Observer, I'll continue to watch WWE
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Old 10-12-2015, 09:46 PM   #275
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Yeah, I'm big on reading the Observer.
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Old 10-12-2015, 10:08 PM   #276
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The CyNick View Post
I dont need people to reason with me. When I read guys like you bitch about the product non stop, it makes me glad that I dont agree with you, because I still look forward to watching RAW every week, hence why I continue to watch.

The ironic thing is guys like you actually cant take that I dont agree with the IWC sheep mentality that you buy into. Thats not meant as an insult to you individually, rather the group you.
I guess it's great to have painfully low expectations.
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Old 10-12-2015, 10:13 PM   #277
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Also it's perfectly fine that you enjoy the product, it's the fact that you feel the need to attack our stance and opinion and completely generalize that makes you a cast off.

For instance, I'd say Anybody Thrilla as a whole LOVES the product, sure he throws in random jibes at it, but he generally is quite positive. Yet, we don't have these absolutely ridiculous arguments with him. You come off as some kind of robot. You don't really pay attention to what we're actually saying, you just say we read Dave Meltzer. I assure you, 90 per cent of the posters here don't read f4w, nor do they like Dave Meltzer. He's actually a bit irritating.
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Old 10-12-2015, 10:41 PM   #278
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Noid as well is actually pretty positive. I rarely see him be overly critical... but he also doesn't make ludicrous generalizations against those who disagree with him, and doesn't have so weird ego centric agenda against the IWC.
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Old 10-12-2015, 11:24 PM   #279
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I don't listen to any wrestling podcast at the moment and have given up because I don't see these stories going anywhere nothing is really attractive to me about the product. I do enjoy watching lesnar wrestle but no interested in seeing him fight Big Show for the 30th time or Taker again. He should be destroying Taker, nothing short of that.

I didn't watch tonight did Cesaro continue his program with Big Show?
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Old 10-12-2015, 11:50 PM   #280
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No him and Neville jobbed to Barrett and Sheamus. Cesaro did most the work and Neville took the pin.
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