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Old 10-12-2015, 03:15 AM   #1
hb2k
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Fixing the WWF in 2002

So for this week's podcast we are returning to our booking committee format for a discussion re-booking the WWF from April 2002, a very interesting time that of course saw that dawn of the brand extension. With the WWF coming off a number of failed hotshots, WrestleMania 18 and needing a new direction, we're looking to get some feedback on what you think needed to be done to make this new venture, and the company itself, succeed during a period where ratings and popularity fell.

On the premise that you HAVE to do the brand extension, what are some of the key things you would have booked to make it turn out better than it did? What do you do with Raw and Smackdown? Who do you push and how? What do you do with the titles? Et cetera.

As always, we'll be reading the best feedback/ideas on the show and crediting you accordingly. So what would you have done?

EDIT - The show discussing "Fixing The WWF in April 2002" is now online and available to listen to at the following link: http://squaredcirclegazette.podbean....nApril2002.mp3





Crazy Like A Fox - The Definitive Chronicle of Brian Pillman 20 Years Later
**Featuring interviews with members of the Pillman family, Dave Meltzer, Kim Wood, Raven, Jim Cornette, Mark Madden, Shane Douglas, Mark Coleman, Alex Marvez, Les Thatcher and many more close friends and colleagues**
Available on Amazon now:
http://amzn.to/2h93SxL

Last edited by hb2k; 10-18-2015 at 07:44 AM.
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Old 10-12-2015, 04:23 AM   #2
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I'll go into more details tomorrow but first thought any time this comes up... ONE CHAMPION.

They should have just had the champion go back and forth between brands. Having two world champions only served to water down the idea of being "world champion". You can never be Hogan... or Austin... or Rock... or Sammartino... because you'll always just be half a world champion. It was stupid and unnecessary. That, coupled with the beginning of the post-competition "resting on our laurels" booking era, led to winning a title not getting anyone over anymore.
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Old 10-12-2015, 04:29 AM   #3
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For the most part, there wasn't really a whole lot wrong with 2002, IMO. Just keep Brock as WWE Champion after Survivor Series, let talent from WCW go that there weren't plans to elevate/use in a non-comedic manner, and DEFINITELY don't bring on Scott Steiner.

IMO, 2003 WWE was much worse than 2002 WWF/WWE.
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Old 10-12-2015, 05:08 AM   #4
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Pretty much what DAMN iNATOR said. WWE 2002 wasn't overly bad, but it was the cooling-off period from the Attitude Era. WWE early 2001 was HOT, Wrestlemania 17 was HOT. WWE was pretty much taking over the world. Then the Invasion storyline cooled things off a little, and finally with that over-and-done, and with no competition, the "boom period" of 1999-2001 was over.

Granted, WWE has had it's ups and downs since. This year so far has been horrendous, and 2008 was pretty forgettable, but generally, I think by January 2002, it wasn't that WWE were doing anything wrong, people were just going off the wrestling. A cycle which continues more and more each year.
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Old 10-12-2015, 05:22 AM   #5
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April 2002'huh? Just a month after WM18. Hmm. I bet a really great poster went to that event.
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Old 10-12-2015, 05:59 AM   #6
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I'm honestly going to have trouble doing this, as I can't help but feel that WrestleMania X-8 was a poor set-up to the split and I'd changed pretty much everything on the card. But I'll take up the challenge later.
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Old 10-12-2015, 06:43 AM   #7
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Adda boy Noid B-) I agree though, and that's part of what makes it an interesting thing to try and figure out: when you look at a lot of the top guys, they really had mixed and matched a lot of people together already, and Mania put a lot of guys in the wrong places.





Crazy Like A Fox - The Definitive Chronicle of Brian Pillman 20 Years Later
**Featuring interviews with members of the Pillman family, Dave Meltzer, Kim Wood, Raven, Jim Cornette, Mark Madden, Shane Douglas, Mark Coleman, Alex Marvez, Les Thatcher and many more close friends and colleagues**
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Old 10-12-2015, 07:22 AM   #8
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I divided up the rosters. I won't bore you by posting them or the reasons, but sadly the most exciting thing that jumped out at me as an immediate story was this:

Mr. Perfect insists on being on the same brand as Kurt Angle so that he can prove he's a superior wrestler. This is used to keep Angle away from the immediate title pictures, and utilize Hennig while you've got him in a series of potential classics.
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Old 10-12-2015, 07:30 AM   #9
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Adda boy Noid B-) I agree though, and that's part of what makes it an interesting thing to try and figure out: when you look at a lot of the top guys, they really had mixed and matched a lot of people together already, and Mania put a lot of guys in the wrong places.
This. Splitting the rosters, I'm finding a lot of pairings that don't really have chemistry. I've also got a tag team story between Lance Storm & The Hurricane, X-Pac & Justin Credible and The Holly Cousins. You guys are going to hate that one.

Conversely, I like my SmackDown female roster. I've only got Jacqueline, Ivory and Molly Holly there, but I feel there is enough of a dynamic there that they could have a serviceable and uncrowded female rivalry. It's a simple one, and could be one of the less convoluted propositions I've got.

The guys primed for big singles pushes seem to be almost entirely Canadian or William Regal. I've got Christian on SmackDown to compete as a parallel with Edge, and he and Regal are sort of allied, but you can also sort of tell that Regal finds Christian annoying and Christian is waiting to stab Regal in the back. They're basically doing the sucking up to Vince thing that Stone Cold and Kurt Angle did, but their characters are less damaged by it at this point. And it is around the European Title.

Oh, and Regal has been assigned Big Bossman, Shawn Stasiak and Stevie Richards as hired goons -- who sometimes help out Christian by extension.

Test is on SmackDown, since he can't be fired since he won the 2001 Immunity Battle Royal, and is basically being a pain in the ass to Vince. He figures he's either going to make it as a big star, or he's going to at least please Flair, who will hire him after Survivor Series 2002.
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Old 10-12-2015, 07:34 AM   #10
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One big thing I've got is the nWo on SmackDown. It would have made sense for them to be drafted to RAW so Flair could keep an eye on them, but I think they would have been more interesting buying first row tickets and showing up as members of the SmackDown roster.

Plus, The Rock had such an identification with SmackDown (given the show's title came from his catchphrase), that I couldn't see him not being there. He was the perfect guy to go up against the nWo at the time -- at least in theory -- because of all the top faces in the WWE, he was the guy who looked best taking a beating and didn't lose aura because of it. The big story was probably in The Rock and Hulk Hogan going up against Kevin Nash and Scott Hall.
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Old 10-12-2015, 07:36 AM   #11
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The roster split was used to separate quite a few tag teams and give them trial singles runs. I think this hurt a lot of the guys they tried it with, and they really should have saved that concept for later on, kept guys as teams, and just use the split to keep certain match-ups either fresh, or focused entirely onto one show.
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Old 10-12-2015, 07:38 AM   #12
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Another big difference I've got is Edge signing with RAW instead of SmackDown. I have this idea in my head that Ric Flair sees a lot in Edge, and wants to do anything he can do to get him, and promises him the champion's lifestyle on RAW. This is a similar thing offered to Chris Benoit. I'm not saying that they eventually bring back the Four Horsemen against Austin, but something along those lines down the track could have been something. Especially if you get Brock Lesnar joining Austin against them for a short period.
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Old 10-12-2015, 07:39 AM   #13
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Almost all my girls signed with Ric Flair and RAW, telling Vince that he's a pervert. Before going and signing with a salivating Flair.
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Old 10-12-2015, 07:41 AM   #14
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Val Venis is on RAW and is Rob Van Dam's first challenger for the IC Title. Maybe not on PPV, but on RAW TV. I don't know why I am mentioning that. Between him, Trish Stratus, Edge & Chris Benoit -- you sure have a lot of pissed off Canadians on that show...hmm....
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Old 10-12-2015, 08:59 AM   #15
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I liked 2002 :/

But I guess an nWo/DX feud would have been cool.....maybe?
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Old 10-12-2015, 12:29 PM   #16
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2002 was good but if were fixing things let's go big. Instead of Flair becoming part owner after the invasion story line have it be Bischoff. Eric could come in and have the NWO with him and takeover Smackdown. Eventually Eric starts to rebrand Smackdown as Nitro. Eric starts poaching Draws talent until the board of directors decide to have a draft to solidify the rosters. I wouldn't split a lot of tag teams just yet and have the to brands be completely separate. Have the WHC on Nitro and the WWE Title on Raw. Use Smakdown as Raws B show and Thunder as Nitros. Air Raw and Nitro live on Mondays and Tuesdays. Don't give Hogan a title run a keep Brock strong. That was the original plan to have Nitro but is fizzled out, who knows how it could have gone.
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Old 10-12-2015, 12:44 PM   #17
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I'll go into more details tomorrow but first thought any time this comes up... ONE CHAMPION.

They should have just had the champion go back and forth between brands. Having two world champions only served to water down the idea of being "world champion". You can never be Hogan... or Austin... or Rock... or Sammartino... because you'll always just be half a world champion. It was stupid and unnecessary. That, coupled with the beginning of the post-competition "resting on our laurels" booking era, led to winning a title not getting anyone over anymore.
Totally agree with the idea of one champion.

I understood the idea of the brand extension, and in theory there was logic to it (ability to hold off big matches, create two different booking styles, give more guys TV time, dont over expose top talent, etc). In reality, the WWE has been successful because Vince is the one making the final call on everything. So all things WWE will have his stamp of approval on it, and will be a reflection of what he wants to see in sports entertainment.

But I was shocked at the time that he went for the dual champion concept. I liked the idea of the champ going between brands. It would have allowed the champ to create programs on both shows at the same time, and then allow some time for programs to cool off. Say HHH was champ. Smackdown has him in May, then he's off to RAW for June. If he has a program simmering on SD and has a match on the May PPV with someone, then he's over on RAW in June, you dont blow off feuds so quickly and drag them out.

The other thing is it would have forced WWE to keep the US and IC titles strong, because every other month, those titles would have needed to headline house shows. Then you probably would have still needed other titles for the mid card guys (ie European, TV, Cruiserweight titles, etc). I would have also done the same thing with the tag team champions, where they go between shows.
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Old 10-12-2015, 01:23 PM   #18
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Eric could come in and have the NWO with him and takeover Smackdown.
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Old 10-12-2015, 02:24 PM   #19
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RVD was white hot and I would have given him a run with the heavyweight strap but instead he was jobbed out in main event matches.
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Old 10-12-2015, 04:59 PM   #20
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Besides what WWF Fan said about sticking to just 1 main champion, I'd go a bit further and have fewer titles but be exclusive to certain shows. Can keep the US and IC since each brand needs its signature title but everything else gets stuck to one brand only.

The initial split was able to easily support multiple titles per brand because the rosters were still bloated with WCW and ECW guys but not once the WWE trimmed them down to something more manageable. The brand exclusive ppvs showed after a while how this was becoming a problem since the divisions and belts were too watered down.
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Old 10-12-2015, 05:17 PM   #21
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Don't ask Austin to job to Lesnar in a KotR qualifying match.
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Old 10-12-2015, 09:55 PM   #22
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So for this week's podcast we are returning to our booking committee format for a discussion re-booking the WWF from April 2002, a very interesting time that of course saw that dawn of the brand extension. With the WWF coming off a number of failed hotshots, WrestleMania 18 and needing a new direction, we're looking to get some feedback on what you think needed to be done to make this new venture, and the company itself, succeed during a period where ratings and popularity fell.

On the premise that you HAVE to do the brand extension, what are some of the key things you would have booked to make it turn out better than it did? What do you do with Raw and Smackdown? Who do you push and how? What do you do with the titles? Et cetera.

As always, we'll be reading the best feedback/ideas on the show and crediting you accordingly. So what would you have done?

Fuck April 2002. I would have changed things since Survivor Series 2001.


-Keep Austin heel and remain as champ until Mania'.
-Have Triple H go over heel Austin at Wrestlemania


-Push Angle and RVD HARD. RVD was way the fuck over with fans and could have and should have been the heir apparent to Austin and Rocky. Angle should have been the company's #1 heel.
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Old 10-12-2015, 10:44 PM   #23
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Don't ask Austin to job to Lesnar in a KotR qualifying match.
Yeah, too true. At least have it be advertised for the PPV.
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Old 10-13-2015, 09:34 AM   #24
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Honestly 2002 was such a clusterfuck of transition and uncertainty that I don't know what could be done to really fix it as such. Austin had been reset as a face but was so close to burnout that even if the Lesnar thing hadn't happened I imagine something would have led to him stepping away sooner or later. The Rock's days as a full timer are coming to a close. Triple H, a guy whosee best contributions come as a heel, receives an undeniable face reaction on his return. Undertaker is wrapped up in an obnoxious heel run. Meanwhile the newly acquirable former WCW guys who didn't come in with the Invasion aren't going to do anything to assist with a move forward. I don't know what you could realistically do to mitigate the shit storm of chaos that was 2002.
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Old 10-13-2015, 01:51 PM   #25
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Put Paul Heyman in charge.
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Old 10-13-2015, 03:17 PM   #26
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Fuck April 2002. I would have changed things since Survivor Series 2001.


-Keep Austin heel and remain as champ until Mania'.
-Have Triple H go over heel Austin at Wrestlemania


-Push Angle and RVD HARD. RVD was way the fuck over with fans and could have and should have been the heir apparent to Austin and Rocky. Angle should have been the company's #1 heel.
Austin as heel actually hurt business. I know why it was done, but it was a mistake that needed to be corrected.

HHH coming back from injury vs a babyface Austin would have come off better IMO. Could have been a passing of the torch so to speak. Although I'm guessing Austin would have balked at that.

As for Angle and RVD, neither guy would have been good choices to carry the company. Angle had injuries and drug issues and RVD didn't have the passion required to carry the ball.

I think the biggest mistake of 2012 was not going all the way with Lesnar. He should have done then what he did in 2014. He was the natural heir apparent. But I guess even that was flawed because he wasn't exactly enamored with working 5 days a week on the road.
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Old 10-17-2015, 08:18 AM   #27
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Put Paul Heyman in charge.
They tried that almost exactly 12 years ago now on SD! (10/23/2003, IIRC) by having Vince name him the show's new G.M. to replace Stephanie (whom Vince had defeated in that awful "I Quit" match the previous Sunday @ No Mercy 2003), and about 10 seconds after he started talking, he practically pissed himself as 'Taker interrupted him.
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Old 10-17-2015, 08:23 AM   #28
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April 2002'huh? Just a month after WM18. Hmm. I bet a really great poster went to that event.
Backlash 2002? Nah, I wasn't there. Sad, I know.
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Old 10-18-2015, 07:44 AM   #29
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I want to thank everybody for the contributions, we got to read a number of them on the show, which is now available at the following link:

http://squaredcirclegazette.podbean....nApril2002.mp3

Join us as we attempt to re-book the early days of the WWF Brand Extension - considering all the issues facing the WWF in April 2002, discussing the entire roster, brand identity, and the titles in order to decide who goes on which show, who gets pushed, who gets downplayed, and all the directions going forward, as well as taking your suggestions on what needed to be done to bring a faltering WWF back on track. A really fun show this week, check it out and let us know what you think!





Crazy Like A Fox - The Definitive Chronicle of Brian Pillman 20 Years Later
**Featuring interviews with members of the Pillman family, Dave Meltzer, Kim Wood, Raven, Jim Cornette, Mark Madden, Shane Douglas, Mark Coleman, Alex Marvez, Les Thatcher and many more close friends and colleagues**
Available on Amazon now:
http://amzn.to/2h93SxL
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Old 10-28-2015, 09:04 PM   #30
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I just listened to this yesterday. Another great podcast, guys. Not sure if you care to read them, but I had some thoughts whilst listening:

* The idea of splitting up the nWo never occured to me, for whatever reason. The idea of Nash on RAW and Hall and Pac on SmackDown has more interest to me than it probably should. I also didn't hate the idea of the re-branding, with them officially becoming "The Kliq" on the air. The angle was pretty much losing steam right out the gate, but an evolved presenation may have helped, even if it was going to be short-lived and basically be the starting point to the Triple H/HBK program.

* I'd actually have swapped Kurt Angle and Chris Jericho around. Angle could have played well off Edge and Hulk Hogan on SmackDown ("I'm a real Real American, Hogan"), and at the time, those programs were fresher for him than ones with Austin or RVD. Not a major gripe, and it ultimately doesn't matter, but I thought I'd throw it out there.

* I also wanted to see The Undertaker on SmackDown. I think he would have been a good early foil for face Edge. It also keeps him away from Austin.

* Kane and Taker being on different brands is preferable to me. Possibly to everyone at that point.

* Raven/Kane pairing? Absolutely love it. Why not move Perry Saturn over from SmackDown as another minion of Raven's? It provides RAW with another workhorse. He could dismantle the guys like Al Snow and D'Lo Brown that you don't really have anything for.

* I like Christian being a worker on RAW. I think he should have stayed separate from Edge, so Edge being a rising star on SmackDown and Christian being a heel counterpoint on RAW is a good move, in my opinion.

* RVD as Intercontinental Champion was done for you, but it works so well. It's basically what Heyman did with RVD in ECW with the TV Title -- but RVD holding the IC Title whilst Angle dominates the World Title scene allows anticipation for that eventual clash to build.

* On the topic of RVD and who he loses the title to, how about John Cena? If you did want to play things without the gift of hindsight and don't really know much about John Cena, you'd probably talk to Jim Cornette about his pros and cons. Corny always had him picked out as your "Ric Flair-type" heel. Generic John babyface isn't something you have to go with. I can just imagine Cena showing up in Vince's office with a cheeky grin on his face, and Vince just drooling over him. "Wow! Wow! Look at you! You're such a...specimen!"
"Thank you, boss, I can't wait to get in there and show these guys a thing or two."
"You know what? I'm going to give you just that opportunity tonight. I'm going to give you Rob Van Dam. With the Intercontinental Title on the line."
*Cena thinks about this for a second*
"Good luck, son."
"With all due respect, Mr. McMahon...luck is for punks."

Cena shocks everybody and cheats to win the IC Title on his first night. Just throwing it out there.

* Liked Batista as Jericho's bodyguard. I envisioned exactly the same thing actually, but I'm not entirely against the idea of Batista basically being Goldberg'd and just destroying people in his Leviathan gimmick.

* May not be urgent, but I always wanted to see Doug Basham with his Revolution gimmick in full-flight on RAW, with Queen Victoria coming along with him.

* I kind of like Eddie and Shawn being on RAW. SmackDown is just so stacked, and it's not like you really had HBK for too many matches in there anywhere. I think there might be an ego thing with keeping him live too. Eddie and HBK is something I'd have liked to have seen down the line, and you could have built up Eddie on SmackDown, but I think he could have done some great stuff wherever he went with the right booking team.

* This makes me wonder: Since you're not really going to be running a SmackDown Six program or have a proper Cruiserweight Division, maybe Rey Mysterio doesn't need to debut on the SmackDown roster? You've got a lot of high-flying guys around there, but if the plan is to have Eddie and Rey wrestle, then maybe RAW would have been a good spot for him? Plus, even though I guess you do have Spike Dudley, Rey might stand out as "the small guy" on a show where there aren't a ton of them. I suppose that does change the context of your US Title program on SmackDown, which was beautifully laid out. Never mind me.
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Old 10-28-2015, 09:06 PM   #31
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If I could suggest a future podcast theme: How about one discussing how you would split the rosters right now, if you get charged with doing so.
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Old 10-29-2015, 06:24 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by Noid View Post
I just listened to this yesterday. Another great podcast, guys. Not sure if you care to read them, but I had some thoughts whilst listening:

* The idea of splitting up the nWo never occured to me, for whatever reason. The idea of Nash on RAW and Hall and Pac on SmackDown has more interest to me than it probably should. I also didn't hate the idea of the re-branding, with them officially becoming "The Kliq" on the air. The angle was pretty much losing steam right out the gate, but an evolved presenation may have helped, even if it was going to be short-lived and basically be the starting point to the Triple H/HBK program.
Always love seeing listener thoughts, especially on episodes like this based on creativity. Agree on the nWo splitting, it never really occured to me to do it either until Kieran pitched it. Ultimately they're not long for the world anyway, and I don't think it's even hindsight to say that, just because everybody knew Hall was on the clock from the first night in. An on air Clique for three months is an interesting premise, though since I'd have no desire to keep the belt on Trips longer than May at best, I'm not sure what they can really accomplish. Plus Hall will be gone before Summerslam, lets be honest.

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* I'd actually have swapped Kurt Angle and Chris Jericho around. Angle could have played well off Edge and Hulk Hogan on SmackDown ("I'm a real Real American, Hogan"), and at the time, those programs were fresher for him than ones with Austin or RVD. Not a major gripe, and it ultimately doesn't matter, but I thought I'd throw it out there.
Perfectly valid. Angle was so awesome on Smackdown that I can't object to anybody wanting to keep him there, an gut instinct says Angle on SD. I just look at the top heels in April 02 (Taker, nWo, Jericho and Angle), Angle was the best in every way and was the least stale, and Raw needed the injection of life. Plus as mentioned on the show, with Angle as champion, he can still be on Smackdown and do the things you'd mentioned with Hogan and Edge.

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* I also wanted to see The Undertaker on SmackDown. I think he would have been a good early foil for face Edge. It also keeps him away from Austin.
Good call. nWo and Taker are in a similar position in this scenario I think, one has to work with Edge on one show, the other with Van Dam on the other. I actually think what you said in your initial feedback subconsciously swayed us with the Rock/Hogan Vs. nWo being the first big story out the gate, because that's natural, but yeah, Taker and Austin should never wrestle again.

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* Kane and Taker being on different brands is preferable to me. Possibly to everyone at that point.
Here here!

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Originally Posted by Noid View Post
* Raven/Kane pairing? Absolutely love it. Why not move Perry Saturn over from SmackDown as another minion of Raven's? It provides RAW with another workhorse. He could dismantle the guys like Al Snow and D'Lo Brown that you don't really have anything for.
Funnily enough some people HATED the Raven/Kane alliance on the other forums, preferring the idea of the HurriKane babyface team, which works well too. I'm up for Saturn getting in on the heel duo. Austin needs something new, the Austin Vs. Boss thing was played out, Raven as a short term feud with some fun brawls could have been the ticket, and him as Kane's superior immediately boosts him in the fans eyes and makes him dangerous without having to convince the world it's him alone. Raven was also off TV for a few months post Survivor Series, so I think its a way to possibly use him without the previous stink lingering.

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* RVD as Intercontinental Champion was done for you, but it works so well. It's basically what Heyman did with RVD in ECW with the TV Title -- but RVD holding the IC Title whilst Angle dominates the World Title scene allows anticipation for that eventual clash to build.
In a similar vain, though we didn't get to it on the show, if Van Dam does the ECW TV Title gimmick with the IC belt for a full year, I'd love to do a story where near the end of 02 and into Mania season, Heyman is doing a promo talking about how awesome Lesnar is, he's going to win the Rumble, etc, and Van Dam walks onto the scene and says it doesn't matter if he does, because he's always going to be Mr. Monday Night. And Heyman sells a slight bit of nervousness. You can do these one off confrontations between Heyman and Van Dam, maybe an interviewer catches Heyman alone and asks or something, but whenever the subject comes up, its clear that Heyman is nervous about the idea of Van Dam Vs. Lesnar. You can play off the ECW history, the Alliance history, all the old footage of Heyman on commentary bigging up Van Dam, the time he jumped onto the announcer desk doing the RVD thumbs in the segment with Austin, all of it, with the idea that Heyman knows RVD better than anybody, and thinks he matches up in such a way where he can beat the unbeatable beast.

The day after Mania when Lesnar wins the title, and Heyman is talking about how he went through Hogan, Austin and Rock, he's the king and nobody could beat him, and RVD finally comes out to confront Lesnar, that could be red hot. Especially if Heyman is trying to hold Brock back telling him not to take the bait.

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* On the topic of RVD and who he loses the title to, how about John Cena? If you did want to play things without the gift of hindsight and don't really know much about John Cena, you'd probably talk to Jim Cornette about his pros and cons. Corny always had him picked out as your "Ric Flair-type" heel. Generic John babyface isn't something you have to go with. I can just imagine Cena showing up in Vince's office with a cheeky grin on his face, and Vince just drooling over him. "Wow! Wow! Look at you! You're such a...specimen!"
"Thank you, boss, I can't wait to get in there and show these guys a thing or two."
"You know what? I'm going to give you just that opportunity tonight. I'm going to give you Rob Van Dam. With the Intercontinental Title on the line."
*Cena thinks about this for a second*
"Good luck, son."
"With all due respect, Mr. McMahon...luck is for punks."

Cena shocks everybody and cheats to win the IC Title on his first night. Just throwing it out there.
That's pretty cool. Again, it's a subconscious thing, but we talked off air about Cena debuting the same way he did with the Angle debut, just on Raw and with Angle as champion, but bringing Cena in as a heel, and an important one right away, could be a real jump start.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Noid View Post
* Liked Batista as Jericho's bodyguard. I envisioned exactly the same thing actually, but I'm not entirely against the idea of Batista basically being Goldberg'd and just destroying people in his Leviathan gimmick.
That feels like a good fit. My only concern with the Goldberging is probably the same one they had in real life - you've just debuted Brock doing the same thing, so they stuck him with D-Von to have him there but not emphasise him too much, like he was "just" a big man.

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Originally Posted by Noid View Post
* May not be urgent, but I always wanted to see Doug Basham with his Revolution gimmick in full-flight on RAW, with Queen Victoria coming along with him.
That might work well, think the only real flaw with the way we had the rosters was that there weren't many major babyfaces for a guy like Basham early doors...Austin, RVD, Jeff and Benoit, with the clock ticking on Austin, I'd say probably towards the end of the year?

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* I kind of like Eddie and Shawn being on RAW. SmackDown is just so stacked, and it's not like you really had HBK for too many matches in there anywhere. I think there might be an ego thing with keeping him live too. Eddie and HBK is something I'd have liked to have seen down the line, and you could have built up Eddie on SmackDown, but I think he could have done some great stuff wherever he went with the right booking team.
I personally wanted Eddie on Raw as well, but got outvoted. The way we lined it up, Shawn immediately has Jericho and Guerrero to work with after Summerslam, as well as guys like Pac and Regal, and the Rumble match with Angle, so that's pretty sexy looking to me. But yeh, him on SD is kind of idealist, there's a reason he never went there.

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Originally Posted by Noid View Post
* This makes me wonder: Since you're not really going to be running a SmackDown Six program or have a proper Cruiserweight Division, maybe Rey Mysterio doesn't need to debut on the SmackDown roster? You've got a lot of high-flying guys around there, but if the plan is to have Eddie and Rey wrestle, then maybe RAW would have been a good spot for him? Plus, even though I guess you do have Spike Dudley, Rey might stand out as "the small guy" on a show where there aren't a ton of them. I suppose that does change the context of your US Title program on SmackDown, which was beautifully laid out. Never mind me.
Haha, well its worth considering though. I do think a lot of the guys Rey would work better with are probably on Smackdown where the crew is generally smaller (Eddie, Jericho, the Cruisers, Shawn, plus Angle as champion), plus a Rey/Eddie feud in 2002 seems too good to pass up for me.

Love the ideas though, this show was really fun to do and kinda shows that as much as I was first daunted by possibly stale combinations, there were options available.

Also rather keen on that Roster Split 2016 idea, will pitch it to the guys and see what they think. It might mean a complete evisceration of the NXT roster...
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Old 10-29-2015, 04:10 PM   #33
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Old 10-29-2015, 04:23 PM   #34
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Old 10-30-2015, 02:40 AM   #35
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Always love seeing listener thoughts, especially on episodes like this based on creativity. Agree on the nWo splitting, it never really occured to me to do it either until Kieran pitched it. Ultimately they're not long for the world anyway, and I don't think it's even hindsight to say that, just because everybody knew Hall was on the clock from the first night in. An on air Clique for three months is an interesting premise, though since I'd have no desire to keep the belt on Trips longer than May at best, I'm not sure what they can really accomplish. Plus Hall will be gone before Summerslam, lets be honest.
Yeah, you guys addressed the point of the nWo guys not being long for the world anyway. It's a fun exercise to imagine what could have been done with them in the meantime to maximize interest though. The name change might have been enough to make things feel more timely than a 2002 nWo faction. He hadn't really Bloomed as much as he would on Heyman's SmackDown, but Albert and Justin Credible getting back on board with them might have been something (I know, X-Factor being dead and buried is probably a good thing).

You could have the nWo turn into The Kliq with Credible joining. Albert could turn on Test in a tag team match against Pac & Credible, Test goes on a face crusade against them? I can hear Karl groaning now. Or maybe Test & Albert both join up under The Kliq once Nash & Hall are gone. So the faction ends up becoming Triple H, X-Pac, Justin Credible, Albert, Test & Trish.

If Stephanie insists on returning to the company down the line, her becoming suspicious of the Triple H/Trish relationship seems very "hangover from the Attitude era-y".

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Perfectly valid. Angle was so awesome on Smackdown that I can't object to anybody wanting to keep him there, an gut instinct says Angle on SD. I just look at the top heels in April 02 (Taker, nWo, Jericho and Angle), Angle was the best in every way and was the least stale, and Raw needed the injection of life. Plus as mentioned on the show, with Angle as champion, he can still be on Smackdown and do the things you'd mentioned with Hogan and Edge.
I guess the whole champion thing makes his roster positioning sort of moot. He was awesome on SmackDown, but trying to put the end results of what actually happened out of mind, I just think he'd have more to offer against the guys there. Fresher match-ups and all. I think I'd have liked Jericho to run things on RAW because I think feuds with Austin and RVD would have been that tiny little bit fresher. Not a giant point of contention, but it's one trade I'd bring up only to be shot down, haha.

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Good call. nWo and Taker are in a similar position in this scenario I think, one has to work with Edge on one show, the other with Van Dam on the other. I actually think what you said in your initial feedback subconsciously swayed us with the Rock/Hogan Vs. nWo being the first big story out the gate, because that's natural, but yeah, Taker and Austin should never wrestle again.
Agree with Taker and nWo needing to be separate. Or at least Taker and Nash. Can't have two guys in black singlets and leather pants running around. I would also like to re-emphasize the point of Taker being away from Austin. And even though he was a heel, Taker was still in that bubble of credibility with guys like Austin, Rock and Triple H. If you've got Austin and Triple H on RAW, then Rock and Taker on SmackDown makes total sense.

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Funnily enough some people HATED the Raven/Kane alliance on the other forums, preferring the idea of the HurriKane babyface team, which works well too. I'm up for Saturn getting in on the heel duo. Austin needs something new, the Austin Vs. Boss thing was played out, Raven as a short term feud with some fun brawls could have been the ticket, and him as Kane's superior immediately boosts him in the fans eyes and makes him dangerous without having to convince the world it's him alone. Raven was also off TV for a few months post Survivor Series, so I think its a way to possibly use him without the previous stink lingering.
Really? I guess a lot of people aren't as down on Kane as you guys generally are, so they might felt it was cutting off his balls a bit? As for Hurricane, I like the idea of him being on SmackDown to compete with the smaller guys, and re-ignite that dynamic with Lance Storm. Hurricane & Lance Storm vs. X-Pac & Justin Credible would be a tag feud with a lot of history behind it. I can't remember exactly where JC ended up, but I believe X-Pac was on SmackDown.

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Originally Posted by hb2k View Post
In a similar vain, though we didn't get to it on the show, if Van Dam does the ECW TV Title gimmick with the IC belt for a full year, I'd love to do a story where near the end of 02 and into Mania season, Heyman is doing a promo talking about how awesome Lesnar is, he's going to win the Rumble, etc, and Van Dam walks onto the scene and says it doesn't matter if he does, because he's always going to be Mr. Monday Night. And Heyman sells a slight bit of nervousness. You can do these one off confrontations between Heyman and Van Dam, maybe an interviewer catches Heyman alone and asks or something, but whenever the subject comes up, its clear that Heyman is nervous about the idea of Van Dam Vs. Lesnar. You can play off the ECW history, the Alliance history, all the old footage of Heyman on commentary bigging up Van Dam, the time he jumped onto the announcer desk doing the RVD thumbs in the segment with Austin, all of it, with the idea that Heyman knows RVD better than anybody, and thinks he matches up in such a way where he can beat the unbeatable beast.

The day after Mania when Lesnar wins the title, and Heyman is talking about how he went through Hogan, Austin and Rock, he's the king and nobody could beat him, and RVD finally comes out to confront Lesnar, that could be red hot. Especially if Heyman is trying to hold Brock back telling him not to take the bait.
That is awesome. The dynamic between Brock and RVD's personalities and presentations lead me to believe it could have been a HUGE eventual match. Brock's intensity vs. Rob's calm persona? People would have bought into RVD beating Brock at this point had they of gone that route.

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Originally Posted by hb2k View Post
That's pretty cool. Again, it's a subconscious thing, but we talked off air about Cena debuting the same way he did with the Angle debut, just on Raw and with Angle as champion, but bringing Cena in as a heel, and an important one right away, could be a real jump start.
The idea of bringing him in the same way works too. It was a good debut that I got into at the time, but I felt that the follow-up was a bit soft. The only other idea I really have for Cena is bringing him and Orton in at the same time as either rivals against each other, or as tag team partners. The tag team thing seems weird, but the idea of two "blue chip" guys breaking ground together is an easy enough way to slowly introduce people to them. Might be a bit better than having Hardcore Holly beat the piss out of Orton consistently for a few weeks.

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Originally Posted by hb2k View Post
That feels like a good fit. My only concern with the Goldberging is probably the same one they had in real life - you've just debuted Brock doing the same thing, so they stuck him with D-Von to have him there but not emphasise him too much, like he was "just" a big man.
I concur. I therefore officially support Batista as Jericho's "Demon of the Deep." Random suggestion though: If they had kept the darker nature of the Leviathan presentation, could it have helped Jericho develop a "darker," more "spiritual" presentation? Or even just becoming less flamboyant rock star and more "Ozzy Osbourne," "there's some crazy shit in this world" rock star? His heel run was running a bit flat, but maybe Jericho talking about a creature from the depths of hell rising to fight on his side could have moved his character away from falling wayside as much as it did later in the year.

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Originally Posted by hb2k View Post
That might work well, think the only real flaw with the way we had the rosters was that there weren't many major babyfaces for a guy like Basham early doors...Austin, RVD, Jeff and Benoit, with the clock ticking on Austin, I'd say probably towards the end of the year?
I agree not right away. Definitely sometime post-SummerSlam.

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I personally wanted Eddie on Raw as well, but got outvoted. The way we lined it up, Shawn immediately has Jericho and Guerrero to work with after Summerslam, as well as guys like Pac and Regal, and the Rumble match with Angle, so that's pretty sexy looking to me. But yeh, him on SD is kind of idealist, there's a reason he never went there.
Another thing to keep in mind is the health of Shawn Michaels. They weren't sure he could go for that long. Although I suppose they did have him work pretty much all the PPVs post-Survivor Series. It's interesting to imagine how it would have all fit together for him in this sort of world, with a more refrained program with Jericho and something with Eddie a-brewing, probably after dropping the US Title to Rey.

HBK beating Triple H at SummerSlam, moving onto a program with Jericho, losing that due to Eddie interference -- with Eddie pissed off he didn't get the title back from Rey in their final encounter, leading to Eddie vs. HBK at Armageddon works for me. Michaels would probably have to win that match, Eddie could keep his heat with the low blow, then Triple H could go about getting his Triple H program.

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Originally Posted by hb2k View Post
Haha, well its worth considering though. I do think a lot of the guys Rey would work better with are probably on Smackdown where the crew is generally smaller (Eddie, Jericho, the Cruisers, Shawn, plus Angle as champion), plus a Rey/Eddie feud in 2002 seems too good to pass up for me.
I'll tap out on the Eddie/Rey stuff. It would have been a phenomenal way to bring him in. I also feels like it makes him a bigger deal than his initial singles run on SmackDown post-SmackDown Six awesomeness did. The dude gets the US Heavyweight Title.

I completely understand the brand identity thing, but part of me wonders if stacking the workhorse guys on one roster is the way to go. It's very, very easy to associate SmackDown with that and see potential match-ups and go "Oh, they have to be together!", which I am very guilty of (See: Angle and Edge earlier), but once those rosters are sort of settled, you can maybe switch a few guys around, and maybe have a D'Lo Brown take the place of Billy Kidman on SmackDown, giving RAW another guy who can stand out with his high-flying and such. Down the line, maybe having the smaller guys on one show becomes less of a certainty, and a guy like Jamie Noble might have more value jumping over to RAW for a program with Billy Kidman than he does just having more smaller guys to work with on SmackDown, but a less dynamic and stand-out program.

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Originally Posted by hb2k View Post
Love the ideas though, this show was really fun to do and kinda shows that as much as I was first daunted by possibly stale combinations, there were options available.

Also rather keen on that Roster Split 2016 idea, will pitch it to the guys and see what they think. It might mean a complete evisceration of the NXT roster...
I love your fantasy booking ones. I was actually really pumped with how you guys got it all together in the end. I was sort of like Karl where I was thinking "Hey, that's actually really fucking good." The thing is, a few of the guys that are lower on the totem pole could probably be moved around (like the aforementioned D'Lo Brown, or Al Snow), actually find things to do, and have more of a purpose and shake things up in even more unexpected ways.

I'm completely OK with the evisceration of the NXT roster. There are too many guys that are ready down there and should have a shot at making money. And there are a few performers down in NXT that have gimmicks I want to see expanded on that just don't get a chance with there being such a congested line. I think the faster you move some of those guys out, the stronger those performers in NXT get.
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Old 05-16-2016, 12:27 AM   #36
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I'm in the process of listening to this great podcast again, and it's weird how on just a different day with more time to between things you completely re-evaluate things.

* For some reason, this time around I would be dead-set for Rob Van Dam on SmackDown. Losing The Rock is a big hit, but he could verbally put over a guy before he left? Did he work the first SmackDown of the brand split? If so, I'd have done The Rock & RVD vs. Kevin Nash & Scott Hall. The nWo were about as good as done, but by putting them with talent they hadn't had much to do with (the Rock/nWo stuff was mainly centred on Hogan/Rock), you instantly make them more interesting. I'd want to keep them away from Hogan and Austin as much as I could. RVD would have had that sort of "cool vibe" that Rock could have gotten behind, and I'd have liked to have seen him on the show where I feel he'd have had smaller shoes to fill, because he was just about ready (in terms of how over he was). Depending on Edge on that show is too much of a climb upwards.

* Austin and Hogan on RAW. Dare I say, I'd have put the Undisputed Title on Austin at Backlash. Yes, Austin was getting past it, but a large part of what fatigued him was creative. Austin just hovering sucked and everybody knew it. If you had treated him more carefully, I think you really could have got him through to the next Mania against Brock. That leads me on to Triple H.

* I know you guys are against hot-shotting the title, but I think Austin beating Triple H, leading to inevitable Austin/nWo interaction on SmackDown (and RVD interaction to put him further over), you could have built tensions there. Triple H could have turned heel (something I agree should have happened) at Judgment Day, where the nWo officially align with him and fuck over Austin. This leads to a Hell in a Cell match (obviously you don't do Trips vs. Jericho), and Austin beats Triple H, possibly when some enemies of the nWo toss them around ringside. You then move onto Austin vs. Rock for Vengeance. It's not WrestleMania, but the match was big enough to draw and it feels like you could have gotten away with it in this era. Rock wins their third PPV headline against each other, and Rock still carries the title into SummerSlam where he puts over Lesnar. Austin vs. Brock is your Mania main event.

* With RVD on SmackDown, I'd have Edge on RAW, where he becomes the first US Champion under Ric Flair. I know you guys swapped Flair and Vince over, but I liked Flair being on RAW -- I found it surprising and I think the roster allocations are more fresh with Vince interacting with the likes of Van Dam, the nWo, etc. and Flair working with Austin and Edge. Flair offers Edge the US Title out the gate, but Edge tells Flair he doesn't want to be handed anything, and he wants to earn it in a tournament. Flair tells Edge he's a "...good kid. A stupid son of a bitch, but a good kid." This very subtle resentment of Edge's hard-working nature leads to Flair eventually putting Edge against The Undertaker -- the man who beat him at WrestleMania. No, the matches wouldn't have been Angle vs. Edge, but they would have felt special and helped Edge get even more over with crowds.

* Angle would be SmackDown for me. Not because of the hindsighty SmackDown Six stuff, but because for some really fucking weird reason, I want to see Angle trying to join the nWo. He was so good at walking the line between credible and goofy, he could have been an ace in the nWo's hat when you need to put them over. Angle could have come out wearing a black t-shirt with nWo-style lettering, excepts the letters are his three I's and they're in red, white and blue. He could have offered Nash, Hall & X-Pac milk in the middle of the ring. That sort of goofy stuff that completely clashes with what the nWo is about, but everybody would know he was good enough to be in there. You could have had them work tag matches, and they make Angle do all the work by refusing to tag in. This might have eventually pushed Angle towards being a face, but it also could have led to Angle being inducted, he kicks out Hall or something (provided the act didn't clean up) and Angle becomes SmackDown's top heel.

* To me, this would mean that Jericho would have to be RAW. I felt these guys were both sort of at the same level at this time. Jericho interacting with Austin was done at No Way Out, but it was still relatively fresh. He could have worked with Edge, or either Eddie Guerrero or Chris Benoit when they were ready to return. I wouldn't have put both Eddie and Benoit on the same show though.

Just some further ideas on the subject. Why not keep the conversation going?
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Old 05-17-2016, 05:06 AM   #37
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Jericho should have been the "bridge-gap" guy between the Attitude Era and the John Cena era:

Jericho should have been the "bridge-gap" guy between the Attitude Era and the John Cena era:


When I responded to this post about a half a year ago, I was behind Angle or RVD being "the guy" to lead the WWE post Wrestlemania 18. In 2004, I was even on the Randy Orton wagon.


However - given Angle's drug problems, RVD's flakiness and character issues (i.e. being pulled over by the cops for weed shortly after his ECW one-night-stand World title victory), and Orton's severe immaturity backstage back then, none of those guys were truly worthy of being the flag bearer.


Enter Chris Jericho. I think Jericho should have been the guy.


However - Jericho should have been properly built since 2000, and unfortunately, he was not:


1) Back in 2000 when Austin was injured, Jericho was a close 2nd to The Rock in terms of popularity. However - instead of grooming Jericho to be a legit future heir apparent to The Rock and Austin by giving Jericho some key victories, they used Jericho's steam to get Benoit over. As great a wrestler as Benoit was, he was never going to be as big as Jericho. There's no way the WWE should have had Benoit go over Jericho so many times in convincing fashion. Jericho should have been ultimately made to look significantly superior to Benoit.


2) Jericho's phantom World title victory over Triple H should have actually happened.


3) In 2001 during the latter stages of the Alliance angle, and during Jericho's rivalry with The Rock, Jericho should never have turned heel. There was one match that Rocky and Jericho had before their rivalry really took steam, where both guys were face..........and guess who got more cheers? Good ol' Y2J. Jericho was made to look like The Rock's equal in that match and the WWE should have just kept Jericho face.


4) Face Jericho winning in the main-event at Wrestlemania 18 over a heel Steve Austin.


The WWE made a mistake by turning Austin heel at Wrestlemania 17, but they should have kept Austin heel until Wrestlemania 18 where he'd ultimately do the job. Why? Because - it would have been a true passing of the torch. Austin should have stayed heel after Survivor Series 2001, and should have retained the title instead of having Jericho defeat Austin here.


Jericho chasing Austin and going over Austin, would have kept the crowd interested as well (as opposed to the crowd being completely dead for a poorly built up Jericho vs. awkward face Triple H).


Ultimately, I think the WWE's misuse of Chris Jericho and over-reliance and favoritism towards Triple H was what cost them between 2002-2005.
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Old 05-17-2016, 06:38 AM   #38
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However - given Angle's drug problems, RVD's flakiness and character issues (i.e. being pulled over by the cops for weed shortly after his ECW one-night-stand World title victory)
LOL'D so much at that particular part of this post.
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Old 05-18-2016, 08:43 PM   #39
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Interesting thoughts on Jericho. I certainly sensed his popularity when I first started watching. I think he may have needed a few presentation tweaks (which he would eventually make in 2008) to make him look less mid-card, but he was about to get there.

Listening to another SCG Radio I heard the idea floated for Chris Jericho to be the guy ultimately revealed to be behind Stone Cold Steve Austin's hit and run. To be honest, that would have been a great way to evolve Jericho into 2001 and beyond. It was in Austin's absence that Jericho was able to climb and arguably become the second most popular guy in the company -- Austin's absence allowed that.
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Old 05-23-2016, 09:18 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by Noid
For some reason, this time around I would be dead-set for Rob Van Dam on SmackDown. Losing The Rock is a big hit, but he could verbally put over a guy before he left? Did he work the first SmackDown of the brand split? If so, I'd have done The Rock & RVD vs. Kevin Nash & Scott Hall. The nWo were about as good as done, but by putting them with talent they hadn't had much to do with (the Rock/nWo stuff was mainly centred on Hogan/Rock), you instantly make them more interesting. I'd want to keep them away from Hogan and Austin as much as I could. RVD would have had that sort of "cool vibe" that Rock could have gotten behind, and I'd have liked to have seen him on the show where I feel he'd have had smaller shoes to fill, because he was just about ready (in terms of how over he was). Depending on Edge on that show is too much of a climb upwards.
This was my gut instinct. Before we recorded the show, I outright told everybody Van Dam on Smackdown is a beautiful fit. We fell in the trap of Vince/IC and Flair/US based off the WWF/WCW lineage, and with the GM switch, it meant RVD was Raw. I don't mind that so much if the result is RVD ends up as Raw's top babyface, but no doubt he feels like a fresher fit on Smackdown. We did have Rock for that first Smackdown, and like you, we figure use that one show to have him endorse the new top SD guy.

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Originally Posted by Noid
Austin and Hogan on RAW. Dare I say, I'd have put the Undisputed Title on Austin at Backlash. Yes, Austin was getting past it, but a large part of what fatigued him was creative. Austin just hovering sucked and everybody knew it. If you had treated him more carefully, I think you really could have got him through to the next Mania against Brock. That leads me on to Triple H.
I think with Austin walking out for 2 weeks following Mania I'd have been reluctant to put the belt on him in response, he was being a bit erratic. He definitely needed something new.

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Originally Posted by Noid
I know you guys are against hot-shotting the title, but I think Austin beating Triple H, leading to inevitable Austin/nWo interaction on SmackDown (and RVD interaction to put him further over), you could have built tensions there. Triple H could have turned heel (something I agree should have happened) at Judgment Day, where the nWo officially align with him and fuck over Austin. This leads to a Hell in a Cell match (obviously you don't do Trips vs. Jericho), and Austin beats Triple H, possibly when some enemies of the nWo toss them around ringside. You then move onto Austin vs. Rock for Vengeance. It's not WrestleMania, but the match was big enough to draw and it feels like you could have gotten away with it in this era. Rock wins their third PPV headline against each other, and Rock still carries the title into SummerSlam where he puts over Lesnar. Austin vs. Brock is your Mania main event.
It keeps the belt strong, I just don't know if Austin Vs. HHH is that much fresher than Austin Vs. Taker at this point? I suppose it's in the eye of the beholder, but with the entire product starting to feel dated for the first time, I'm not sure I'd want Austin Vs. HHH, even with the newer backdrop of the nWo, to be the top feud.

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Originally Posted by Noid
With RVD on SmackDown, I'd have Edge on RAW, where he becomes the first US Champion under Ric Flair. I know you guys swapped Flair and Vince over, but I liked Flair being on RAW -- I found it surprising and I think the roster allocations are more fresh with Vince interacting with the likes of Van Dam, the nWo, etc. and Flair working with Austin and Edge. Flair offers Edge the US Title out the gate, but Edge tells Flair he doesn't want to be handed anything, and he wants to earn it in a tournament. Flair tells Edge he's a "...good kid. A stupid son of a bitch, but a good kid." This very subtle resentment of Edge's hard-working nature leads to Flair eventually putting Edge against The Undertaker -- the man who beat him at WrestleMania. No, the matches wouldn't have been Angle vs. Edge, but they would have felt special and helped Edge get even more over with crowds.
I absolutely love this. You just know they'd balls it up by eventually making it Flair Vs. Edge or something, but you could even frame it in the end as Ric trying to light a fire in Edge to be good enough to beat Taker. Flair could so an AWESOME promo on Edge talking about all the guys he's seen like him in the past that were supposed to take Flair's place, and in the end they never did. As much as Flair despises Taker, he can admit he's a legend. Flair putting Edge in his place and telling him "are you one of them...(the johnny come latelys)...or are you one of us? Beat him to prove it" would be captivating.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Noid
Angle would be SmackDown for me. Not because of the hindsighty SmackDown Six stuff, but because for some really fucking weird reason, I want to see Angle trying to join the nWo. He was so good at walking the line between credible and goofy, he could have been an ace in the nWo's hat when you need to put them over. Angle could have come out wearing a black t-shirt with nWo-style lettering, excepts the letters are his three I's and they're in red, white and blue. He could have offered Nash, Hall & X-Pac milk in the middle of the ring. That sort of goofy stuff that completely clashes with what the nWo is about, but everybody would know he was good enough to be in there. You could have had them work tag matches, and they make Angle do all the work by refusing to tag in. This might have eventually pushed Angle towards being a face, but it also could have led to Angle being inducted, he kicks out Hall or something (provided the act didn't clean up) and Angle becomes SmackDown's top heel.
You know, since they made him a bungling goon with the wig and headgear, this is actually a good alternative, goofy but proves he's awesome. As you heard on the show, I'm all about Angle as the top heel right from the off personally. The shirt idea cracked me up, just envisioning Angle silly fucking smirk.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Noid
To me, this would mean that Jericho would have to be RAW. I felt these guys were both sort of at the same level at this time. Jericho interacting with Austin was done at No Way Out, but it was still relatively fresh. He could have worked with Edge, or either Eddie Guerrero or Chris Benoit when they were ready to return. I wouldn't have put both Eddie and Benoit on the same show though.
Yeah, Angle and Jericho, and similarly Taker and nWo need to be on separate sides. So of course WWE grouped them both together.

And to Heyman's point on Jericho, I agree that by April 2002, they'd really done a number on him. There are few cases in history where the guy losing the World Title at Mania was so fucked the second it was done. The slow burn element of the heel turn didn't work either, you could feel him cooling off week after week. I think he has to treat the upper-mid level for at least a little while to get that stink off him.

Love the discussion though. Got another one of these rebooking shows coming up this week on 1991 (if you're interested), will post the thread later.
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