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Old 08-10-2016, 12:46 PM   #201
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stickman View Post
Agreed. I don't understand why women tend to be clunky and awkward more than the guys. Aside from tits hanging out, it seems like at times women stop and start moving while performing manuvers whereas men are able to do things in one motion. I really don't get why that is.
That's why women regularly earn twenty percent less than men.
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Old 08-10-2016, 06:31 PM   #202
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Originally Posted by Dastardly Dale Newstead View Post
Heel biker taker was awesome. Face biker taker was a tosser
Yep.

Owen was a better all around performer than Bret
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Old 08-10-2016, 08:02 PM   #203
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KIRA View Post

Owen was a better all around performer than Bret
He was just as good a worker, better on the mic, a more entertaining personality, and could work as both a heel or face, but was a much more effective heel than Bret, save for those 6 months in 1997. Even then they were together.

This checks out.
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Old 08-10-2016, 11:00 PM   #204
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And yet Bret still worked better as a main eventer.
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Old 08-11-2016, 12:48 AM   #205
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But that's possibly because Owen "didn't take it seriously". I could swear I remember Bret admitting Owen was "frustratingly" better than him, but because Owen basically didn't give a fuck about being the best, he didn't really apply himself to the level Bret did.
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Old 08-11-2016, 12:55 AM   #206
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dastardly Dale Newstead View Post
And yet Bret still worked better as a main eventer.
Unfair. Owen was not able to be a main eventer with Bret there and then ruining it all by being a bitch.
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Old 08-11-2016, 01:12 AM   #207
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lol Owen was fucking unbelievable but he was not a main event talent.
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Old 08-11-2016, 01:38 AM   #208
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So Bret took it too serious and Owen was like whatever. They could have been a good tag team if the ages and timing were better.
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Old 08-11-2016, 08:42 AM   #209
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dastardly Dale Newstead View Post
lol Owen was fucking unbelievable but he was not a main event talent.
Really not so sure. Between being allegedly better than Bret, that whole "Owen was supposed to become The Game" rumor, and the overwhelming fact that he died way too soon, it is difficult to dismiss his main event potential out of hand.

You never know: he might have said or done something or been put into position to be propelled into the stratosphere. The argument of history may not even been about Bret or Shawn, but Owen or Shawn.

I guess this brings another "against the grain" argument: me not liking to arbitrarily dismiss people as not being "main eventers" or "top draws" when the situation never really arose. It is a combination of ability, timing, and the right people thinking a push for so and so is the right thing to do.

If Vince didn't see money in "Austin 3:16", he may have well gotten the Zack Ryder treatment, and allowed him to fuck off into oblivion while still trying to create another Hogan in spite of the overwhelming number of signs and chants. What if they decided the failed push of Flex Kivana or overhyped babyface Rocky Miavia was considered to be all Rock's fault and decided just to job him out on Shotgun Saturday Night for a couple of years? The same thing could be said about them in those situations: that they "didn't have it" and weren't main eventers or draws, and the evidence would have supported that point of view.
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Old 08-11-2016, 11:19 AM   #210
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If Owen hadn't died I'd see him as what Jericho became and maybe more. Definitely would have been the first Undisputed Champion.
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Old 08-11-2016, 02:55 PM   #211
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I don't see any reason why Owen couldn't have been given the ball.
But I also admit that I don't understand Bret's appeal at all outside of his anti-american heel run I thought he was he most sleep inducing person on the roster.
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Old 08-11-2016, 07:34 PM   #212
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What's all this main event talk? He died in a Blue Blazer comedy gimmick. He's one of my all time favorites, but let's be honest here.
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Old 08-12-2016, 03:27 AM   #213
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anybody Thrilla View Post
What's all this main event talk? He died in a Blue Blazer comedy gimmick. He's one of my all time favorites, but let's be honest here.
After Bret left for WCW and he came back with this badass gimmick, he was the most over face in the company. Obviously Shawns POLITIKING stopped that and he just randomly joined the Nation.

I'm not saying he would have been a long term main event, but a 1 or 2 time champ from that angle alone and some classic main events vs HBK would have been great. At least give him the ball while he's red hot.
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Old 08-12-2016, 03:56 AM   #214
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It would have been great, but that clearly was NOT the direction that they were looking in with him.
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Old 08-12-2016, 04:02 AM   #215
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Had Owen made it to the brand split era, it's not impossible to think he would've gotten a run. He'd have fit right in with the SD roster.
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Old 08-12-2016, 09:26 AM   #216
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It would have been great, but that clearly was NOT the direction that they were looking in with him.
If anything, he would've been an agent by 2001.
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Old 08-12-2016, 09:45 AM   #217
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Damian Rey 2.0 View Post
Had Owen made it to the brand split era, it's not impossible to think he would've gotten a run. He'd have fit right in with the SD roster.
It's almost impossible to think he WOULDN'T have gotten a run. The standards for champions in the brand split era being ridiculously low and all. Owen would have been more than qualified.
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Old 08-12-2016, 02:39 PM   #218
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anybody Thrilla View Post
What's all this main event talk? He died in a Blue Blazer comedy gimmick. He's one of my all time favorites, but let's be honest here.
So, by your logic, (and my opinions of Hunter as a talent aside) if HHH died in a car wreck or something during his blueblood gimmick, it would be just as well, because he never would have amounted to anything in the wrestling business? How about if Eddie died even a year before his monumental victory? Would he have also been considered "good, but not WHC good"?

What's to say that something or someone wouldn't have changed their minds about the guy, be it Vince, Shawn, or even Owen himself? Shit changes. Remember when Cena was an "experiment"? Wasn't worth the time to make him legit until there was a talent vaccum that left them devoid of many staple, go-to draws. Now, you can't imagine the landscape without him. We don't, or can't know, what the future held for Owen. Hell, that Blue Blazer scam he and Jarrett were running might have been a catalyst for something greater for BOTH guys down the line.

Also, another thing to note, again, is how lax Owen's attitued allegedly was. Maybe he WAS looked at beforehand at being a possible top guy, and he was all "meh" about it- that carrying the company was too big a pain in the ass and would take away from the fun he was having. And maybe something in future might have changed that out of obligation, growth, or necessity.
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Old 08-12-2016, 03:09 PM   #219
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I'm basing what I'm saying on facts that were actually happening. You guys keep throwing what ifs like you know something that no one else does. Relax. I love Owen too. One of my all time favorites. I just don't think he would have been a main eventer, based on what actually was happening in this very real and non-made up life.
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Old 08-12-2016, 03:11 PM   #220
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I would love to be wrong about what I'm saying. But the thing is, I never will be here. Because he certainly won't be main eventing anything now. I would have LOVED to see him in the main event. I just don't THINK it would have happened. And frankly, it's reaching for any of you to think otherwise. Based on facts. Not conjecture.
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Old 08-12-2016, 06:14 PM   #221
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Yeah and he was better than Bret at the super junior style, but Bret had the story telling and subtle nuances which make one a main eventer down. Plus, while maybe not as agile as Owen, Bret was a technician enough to pull it all together.
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Old 08-12-2016, 06:41 PM   #222
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Owen was amazing. I started watching WWF in like 1993 and I always HATED Owen, but in the best possible way. He always made me laugh, I always knew his matches would have something that tricked me into thinking wrestling was real. He was really creative, and did have a certain formula, but not as strict of one as Bret, so his big matches come off more creative to me than Bret's. But he was a chicken shit heel, and that is a total different style than Bret was, plus Bret was a high level main eventer, the both served different purposes. The only thing you can say for sure is that when they worked together, you'll rarely find two better partners in the ring. They were fantastic together.

There were two or three times when WWE pushed Owen as a strong baby face, December 97 against Shawn, very interesting program. That was the best time to put the title on Owen if you weren't going to do it in 94 against Bret. Then that run continued into 98 and Owen adopted a Steve Austinesque persona and was fucking awesome, but that got cut off and they turned him heel again.

I was watching Over the Edge old school style, listening to it mostly scrambled on the PPV channel. I was like 10 years old, I didn't realize how much I loved him til he was gone. Always one of the best characters on WWF TV. RIP Owen
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Old 08-12-2016, 06:44 PM   #223
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Owen definitely was awesome. Probably one of the best heels of all time. He was so great a being a little dipshit and absolutely hilarious. He was also crisp in the ring and I don't think he ever had a bad match. He just wasn't "better" than Bret.
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Old 08-12-2016, 06:51 PM   #224
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He was better at being a star in the mid card than struggling at the top.
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Old 08-12-2016, 07:28 PM   #225
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re: the Owen main event chatter

I loved him, thought he was the total package, and in hindsight wish he received an opportunity like his brother. However, he was never, at the time of his passing, going to be anything more than a spot, B-PPV challenger at the top level, akin to Ken Shamrock or the British Bulldog in '95-'96. He had been around for a decade at that point and was cemented as great, talented mid-carder in the mind of the decision maker, Vince McMahon.

So yes, if he had continued on, he probably would have had a few good years left, but they would be in the midcard helping the real pet projects and future main eventers like Benoit, Angle, Jericho, Cena and putting over HHH.
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Old 08-15-2016, 01:26 PM   #226
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^^^^^^^

I'll have to agree with The Condor here. Owen would have had runs as IC champ and Tag team champ, but that's as far as he was going to go in my opinion. The fact that Owen jobbed cleanly to guys like Ken Shamrock, Road Dogg, etc., was vivid proof that Owen would have likely been used to put over up coming talent.

RIP.
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Old 08-15-2016, 02:48 PM   #227
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A lot of stuff that has been mentioned, but thought I would chip in with something that hasn't. Bret had a better look.

I personally don't think that was the only thing that separates them. Bret was a better serious character and was able to tell stories and make you believe in whatever angle or match he was in, but even then, WWE wanted guys with a marketable look up front and Bret had a marketable, unique look.

He was a handsome guys and popular with female fans too back in the day.
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Old 08-15-2016, 02:53 PM   #228
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Also, Bret had lots of fantastic stories with Owen, Austin, HBK, DX, Lawler, Skinner (lol)

But Owen absolutely peaked when his better brother led hin through the story of their feud. It was arguably one of Bret's finest too, but he had many, many more.

Owen was brought to Bret's level in that feud as a serious storyteller and performer. I think Dale nailed it, it was the subtle nuances, reactions and timing of things, Bret's instincts for what he was trying to tell an audience, that set him apart.
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Old 08-16-2016, 04:02 AM   #229
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I thought Owen was such an awesome talent, but I think the people who think Owen was going to be the beneficiary of the talent explosion in 2000 and beyond are wrong. Owen was being phased down already in 1998 and 1999, and the talent depth at that time was surprisingly weak. With more guys coming in, they wouldn't be in the mindset of using them to put over Owen, it'd be the other way around. He may have found a lease on life aligned with one of them (Angle perhaps, with Owen endorsing Kurt as the only American with decent morals), but I don't see that transitioning to a main event run. Especially considering the rise of Triple H.

You touch on Bret's look, but Bret's general aura, even when he was in the Hart Foundation with Anvil, was always above his station. It's why Bret could get so over in situations like Survivor Series 1990 with DiBiase when he was just part of a tag team. He felt like he had more depth and sucked you in emotionally far more than Owen did.

I don't think the public ever saw Owen as a main event talent, and I don't think, outside of the Bret storyline, that he really was one. I just don't see the time frame when he's the best option outside of maybe getting the short run Backlund did, but that does nothing for Owen or Bret in the long run for him to get steamrolled by Diesel like Bob did. Owen having a decent stretch as champion wasn't going to happen in that era, and I'm not sure Owen could carry it as top heel for a prolonged period in 1994/95? Up for debate I suppose.

In 96 Shawn was the right choice. By early 97 Owen was locked in the middle. Late 97, you had Austin, and I'm sorry, but in no way was Owen more over than Austin in late 97. He got some big pops based on the surprise and Montreal, but he wasn't hotter than Austin.

I'm not sure when Owen's time is when there aren't better options, and I think that's why I'm not sold on Owen as main eventer. A true top, top guy IS the better option.
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Old 08-16-2016, 09:26 AM   #230
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Plus, people take Owen "not being a main event talent" as some kind of knock. it isn't. He was your ultimate utility mid carder. He could be in the lower mid-card, or the upper mid-card and then slot into the main event and nobody would bat an eyelid because he was just that good. You NEED those guys, because no loss ever hurt Owen as his awesomeness and antics always kept him in the mix. However, you place him as a pure main event talent, and suddenly he becomes far more exposed. Also, you remove your reliable utility mid card guy.
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Old 08-16-2016, 01:42 PM   #231
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I'm wondering if there is a parallel to mid/late 90's Owen Hart, to early-mid 00's Christian?

Not in terms of wrestling ability (i.e. Owen was far more talented than Christian), but just in terms of a guy being perfectly suited for the mid-card, but not being quite main-event material.
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Old 08-16-2016, 03:39 PM   #232
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1. I couldn't give a fuck about Daniel Bryan. TNA was as far as he should have went.
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Old 08-16-2016, 04:18 PM   #233
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I probably wouldn't have hated him so much if he was in TNA. Then again he wouldn't have been a former WWE superstar and probably wouldn't have got much of a push in TNA.
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Old 08-16-2016, 04:42 PM   #234
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heyman View Post
I'm wondering if there is a parallel to mid/late 90's Owen Hart, to early-mid 00's Christian?

Not in terms of wrestling ability (i.e. Owen was far more talented than Christian), but just in terms of a guy being perfectly suited for the mid-card, but not being quite main-event material.
Christian was exactly who I thought of when reading Dale's post.
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