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Old 10-04-2015, 09:35 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The CyNick View Post
If you book him to just kill guys, like Lesnar was booked for example, he will get cheered, like Lesnar did.
... Him killing guys like Lesnar was not something me, anyone else in this thread or anyone that I even know of has suggested at any point.
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Old 10-04-2015, 10:14 AM   #42
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Noticed how they've booked Owens against Ryback and Jericho? He wins, but it's chicken shit? That's how you book a no good dastardly heel to win while keeping the baby faces strong. It's not difficult. You don't book him to get hours comeuppance once a month or so. It ruins any build up to a baby face over coming the odds.
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Old 10-04-2015, 07:22 PM   #43
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I think the idea now is that being a face or a heel doesn't matter. People are shades of grey, and they're going that way with Dolph Ziggler being a man-whore, Rusev standing up to unpopular guys even though he's a pig, Sheamus kicking everybody in the face without explanation, Kevin Owens walked out on other bad guys, Rollins having arguments with all the heels and being afraid of everybody, etc.

It's all a part of a plan to create deeper personalities. I mean, it's not working, but I can imagine that being the plan.
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Old 10-05-2015, 12:13 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan View Post
... Him killing guys like Lesnar was not something me, anyone else in this thread or anyone that I even know of has suggested at any point.
So what should he do? Really the only guys he hasnt beat are Cena (even though he did beat him in a heel manner), and Lesnar (who they should be protecting).

I dont get the issue.
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Old 10-05-2015, 12:13 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Damian Rey View Post
Noticed how they've booked Owens against Ryback and Jericho? He wins, but it's chicken shit? That's how you book a no good dastardly heel to win while keeping the baby faces strong. It's not difficult. You don't book him to get hours comeuppance once a month or so. It ruins any build up to a baby face over coming the odds.
LOL

Ryback and Jericho are not the same as guys like Cena and Lesnar.
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Old 10-05-2015, 12:15 AM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Noid View Post
I think the idea now is that being a face or a heel doesn't matter. People are shades of grey, and they're going that way with Dolph Ziggler being a man-whore, Rusev standing up to unpopular guys even though he's a pig, Sheamus kicking everybody in the face without explanation, Kevin Owens walked out on other bad guys, Rollins having arguments with all the heels and being afraid of everybody, etc.

It's all a part of a plan to create deeper personalities. I mean, it's not working, but I can imagine that being the plan.
Heels have walked out on other heels. Watch old Survivor Series matches, its nothing new.
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Old 10-05-2015, 03:48 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The CyNick View Post
So what should he do? Really the only guys he hasnt beat are Cena (even though he did beat him in a heel manner), and Lesnar (who they should be protecting).

I dont get the issue.
I explained what they should do on the first page in depth. I feel like you just make your point and then argue a phantom counter-point and ignore everything else completely. Noid was right. Now I'M starting to feel like Kane Knight needing to throw out "strawmans" and such...
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Old 10-05-2015, 03:50 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The CyNick View Post
LOL

Ryback and Jericho are not the same as guys like Cena and Lesnar.
Seriously. You know he wasn't simply saying "He should be beating Cena and Lesnar like Owens beat Jericho and Ryback". You have to know that. Come on...
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Old 10-05-2015, 03:44 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan View Post
Seriously. You know he wasn't simply saying "He should be beating Cena and Lesnar like Owens beat Jericho and Ryback". You have to know that. Come on...
I'm dead serious.

If you go back in Rollins reign, he wins the blowoff against just about everyone. Granted, he's only been champ for 6 months, so he hasn't had a ton of real programs, but off the top of my head I know he beat Anbrose and Sting. He backdoored against Cena in their biggest match and didn't beat Lesnar. I'm assuming he will beat Kane in the end of their program. So what am I missing?
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Old 10-05-2015, 04:02 PM   #50
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Cena has beaten Rollins 4 out of 5 times, 37 in a row.
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Old 10-05-2015, 04:29 PM   #51
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Cena is the top babyface in the territory.
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Old 10-05-2015, 05:51 PM   #52
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That's all well and good but it doesn't do anything but tarnish your heel champion if he's getting pinned left and right. It's one thing to lose occasionally, like the roll up loss to Ryback some weeks ago, but to be pinned as regularly as Rollins is has only made his run as champ diminish his stature. How was it he was booked better before winning the belt than after?

This is the same shit they ran with when Orton was supposed to be the top heel. Nobody is gonna pay to see a heel lose and finally pay for his sins if he's losing regularly.
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Old 10-05-2015, 06:24 PM   #53
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Cena is the top babyface in the territory.
this made me lol
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Old 10-05-2015, 06:39 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Damian Rey View Post
That's all well and good but it doesn't do anything but tarnish your heel champion if he's getting pinned left and right. It's one thing to lose occasionally, like the roll up loss to Ryback some weeks ago, but to be pinned as regularly as Rollins is has only made his run as champ diminish his stature. How was it he was booked better before winning the belt than after?

This is the same shit they ran with when Orton was supposed to be the top heel. Nobody is gonna pay to see a heel lose and finally pay for his sins if he's losing regularly.
People pay to see heels lose. If the heel is vulnerable in theory you should think he will lose.

This whole thing is crazy since Rollins keeps winning the big matches. Summerslam he beat Cena, NOC he beat Sting. HIAC he should beat Kane. Nobody will remember these random TV matches.
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Old 10-05-2015, 06:41 PM   #55
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Why would I pay money to see the heel lose when I can see him lose on free tv on a semi regular basis?
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Old 10-05-2015, 06:53 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Damian Rey View Post
Why would I pay money to see the heel lose when I can see him lose on free tv on a semi regular basis?
That's like saying I won't watch any future Batman movies that feature The Joker because I've seen him lose every time.
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Old 10-05-2015, 07:10 PM   #57
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Not even close. The joker isn't losing at every turn. They build to a climax where only in the end does the hero triumph. You have to invest 2.5 hours of time into the movie to finally see the hero victorious.

You only have to watch weekly to see Rollins lose, with no build, no climax, no payoff.

It's not the same despite your lame efforts. And it still won't answer the question of paying to see the heel lose when I can just watch for free.
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Old 10-05-2015, 08:51 PM   #58
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Old 10-05-2015, 09:07 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Damian Rey View Post
Not even close. The joker isn't losing at every turn. They build to a climax where only in the end does the hero triumph. You have to invest 2.5 hours of time into the movie to finally see the hero victorious.

You only have to watch weekly to see Rollins lose, with no build, no climax, no payoff.

It's not the same despite your lame efforts. And it still won't answer the question of paying to see the heel lose when I can just watch for free.
RAW is longer than most movies...for better or worse
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Old 10-09-2015, 08:02 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The CyNick View Post
I'm dead serious.

If you go back in Rollins reign, he wins the blowoff against just about everyone. Granted, he's only been champ for 6 months, so he hasn't had a ton of real programs, but off the top of my head I know he beat Anbrose and Sting. He backdoored against Cena in their biggest match and didn't beat Lesnar. I'm assuming he will beat Kane in the end of their program. So what am I missing?


It's one thing to be a chicken shit heel, but at some point, you have to start getting clean and convincing victories in order to really take that next step. If you don't - then you ultimately become nothing more than a glorified "transitional" champ.


Case in point - Chris Jericho's title reign from Survivor Series 2001 - Wrestlemania 18. One reason why Jericho never got to "the next level" despite his historic reign as the First ever Undisputed champ, is because he was made to look extremely inferior. All of his victories over Austin, Rocky, etc., etc. came across as massive flukes, which then lead to Jericho being spanked multiple times by Triple H.


Compare that to the way Triple H was booked in 1999/2000. Yes - Triple H looked cowardly in many of his title defenses, but he also flat out destroyed guys like Mick Foley, etc., and often looked convincing in many of his victories over Jericho, The Rock, Austin (2 of 3 pinfalls), etc. \


Kurt Angle in 1999/00 - another great example of great booking. Heel Kurt Angle was beating a lot of faces cleanly and efficiently (i.e. Val Venis, Chris Jericho, Gangrel, Shawn Stasiak, etc., etc.). Angle grew massive credibility, AND the fans booed him at appropriate times.


Right now - Rollins' is coming across as a little too cowardly. Might be better for his character's longevity if he looked more convincing.
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Old 10-09-2015, 08:39 PM   #61
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It's not even that he comes off as cowardly. He just doesn't win. Whoopee doo he'll win a blow off match now and again and has scratched by as champ for 6 months. He's lost consistently and convincingly in that time. He just lost to Cena three times in less than a month. Who cares if he loses the title at this point? He's been booked like a loser the entire time and winning the title has done zero to his credibility. He was booked better last year before winning the belt.
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Old 10-09-2015, 08:42 PM   #62
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I mean, how bad an idea was it to put the US title on Rollins only for him to lose it and be beaten in the rematch in consecutive matches? What the booking of those matches says is Rollins is good enough to be WWE champ, but not good enough to be United States champion. The US title is the top belt based on what WWE is telling us through their own booking decisions.
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Old 10-09-2015, 09:01 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The CyNick View Post
So what should he do? Really the only guys he hasnt beat are Cena (even though he did beat him in a heel manner), and Lesnar (who they should be protecting).

I dont get the issue.
Dating back to September 13th, WWE World Heavyweight Champion Seth Rollins has participated in 16 matches on television and house show events. Out of those 16 matches, Seth Rollins was defeated in 15 of them. His only victory was in his match against Sting at the Night of Champions event.
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Old 10-09-2015, 09:19 PM   #64
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But he's being booked as an effective heel.
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Old 10-09-2015, 09:43 PM   #65
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RAW is longer than most movies...for better or worse
It is weird when I think about the fact that every RAW is as long as LOTR.
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Old 10-09-2015, 09:44 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heyman View Post
It's one thing to be a chicken shit heel, but at some point, you have to start getting clean and convincing victories in order to really take that next step. If you don't - then you ultimately become nothing more than a glorified "transitional" champ.


Case in point - Chris Jericho's title reign from Survivor Series 2001 - Wrestlemania 18. One reason why Jericho never got to "the next level" despite his historic reign as the First ever Undisputed champ, is because he was made to look extremely inferior. All of his victories over Austin, Rocky, etc., etc. came across as massive flukes, which then lead to Jericho being spanked multiple times by Triple H.


Compare that to the way Triple H was booked in 1999/2000. Yes - Triple H looked cowardly in many of his title defenses, but he also flat out destroyed guys like Mick Foley, etc., and often looked convincing in many of his victories over Jericho, The Rock, Austin (2 of 3 pinfalls), etc. \


Kurt Angle in 1999/00 - another great example of great booking. Heel Kurt Angle was beating a lot of faces cleanly and efficiently (i.e. Val Venis, Chris Jericho, Gangrel, Shawn Stasiak, etc., etc.). Angle grew massive credibility, AND the fans booed him at appropriate times.


Right now - Rollins' is coming across as a little too cowardly. Might be better for his character's longevity if he looked more convincing.
You're all over the place.

Ive said this a bunch of times. Rollins HAS had clean wins over guys in high profile matches. Ambrose and Sting for example. And likely Kane coming up here for the next couple months.

You listed guys that Kurt Angle beat that apparently made him credible - such elite talent as Val Venis, SHAWN STASIAK and GANGREL!!! These wins apparently made Angle credible, yet Rollins is not for beating STING and Dean Ambrose? The truth is Angle went over JOBBERS and then lost a high profile match within a few months to a guy who was essentially an opening card guy his whole career. From there Angle went straight to mid card and was not protected against top guys - he won some, lost some. He managed to get over though. You know why? Because he was fucking awesome. Guys today are not on his level. Thats not booking, thats talent.

Jericho was never meant to be a top guy. Jericho literally was a transitional champion. He became Undisputed Champion in December and was just there to be a heel to put over returning super babyface Hunter at Mania. Rollins on the other hand is someone I believe WWE thinks long term will be a main event babyface. Likely like a Randy Orton who can be an effective face or heel at the top of the card.

You say HHH destroyed guys convincingly as a heel champion? Other than Foley, who did he beat convincingly? Rock? Not as champion. Austin? He did beat him clean one time, but that wasnt while Hunter was champion. Thats selective memory on what really happened.

The truth of the matter is Foley was vital is making both Rock and then Hunter look like credible world champions. It would be great if say Kane had the ability of Mick Foley, and he could be used to really heat up Rollins as we approach the beginning of Mania season. But Kane isnt Foley. In reality, there is no Mick Foley type on the roster. But in terms of BOOKING Kane is being used EXACTLY like Foley was against Hunter leading into Rumble 2000. Right down to the whole multiple personality thing. Maybe in 15 years when people look back they will say how much better the booking was in 2015 than it is in 2030.
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Old 10-09-2015, 09:45 PM   #67
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It's not even that he comes off as cowardly. He just doesn't win. Whoopee doo he'll win a blow off match now and again and has scratched by as champ for 6 months. He's lost consistently and convincingly in that time. He just lost to Cena three times in less than a month. Who cares if he loses the title at this point? He's been booked like a loser the entire time and winning the title has done zero to his credibility. He was booked better last year before winning the belt.
Lay out how Rollins should have been booked between Mania and now without turning him babyface.
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Old 10-09-2015, 09:49 PM   #68
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I mean, how bad an idea was it to put the US title on Rollins only for him to lose it and be beaten in the rematch in consecutive matches? What the booking of those matches says is Rollins is good enough to be WWE champ, but not good enough to be United States champion. The US title is the top belt based on what WWE is telling us through their own booking decisions.
It was done to create more interest in the US title and also create a money fight for Summerslam by putting Rollins against the top star in the company. I personally am not a huge fan of how that match at Summerslam ended, but I understand why WWE does those types of things. It should lead to another big WWE title match for Cena against Rollins some point down the road.

Its funny how people like to complain that WWE doesnt elevate the secondary titles, then when they do, its like "oh my God they are burrying the WWE title".
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Old 10-09-2015, 09:51 PM   #69
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Dating back to September 13th, WWE World Heavyweight Champion Seth Rollins has participated in 16 matches on television and house show events. Out of those 16 matches, Seth Rollins was defeated in 15 of them. His only victory was in his match against Sting at the Night of Champions event.
LOL - oh no house show losses!

How many of those matches were on TV that he lost?

How many of those TV matches that he lost were singles matches via pinfall or submission against someone other than Cena?
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Old 10-09-2015, 09:52 PM   #70
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But he's being booked as an effective heel.
Thats subjective.
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Old 10-09-2015, 10:15 PM   #71
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It was done to create more interest in the US title and also create a money fight for Summerslam by putting Rollins against the top star in the company. I personally am not a huge fan of how that match at Summerslam ended, but I understand why WWE does those types of things. It should lead to another big WWE title match for Cena against Rollins some point down the road.

Its funny how people like to complain that WWE doesnt elevate the secondary titles, then when they do, its like "oh my God they are burrying the WWE title".
They didn't need that match lead to another big match to Cena and having them square off as often as they have has watered down interest in seeing another match from them.

Putting the belt on Cena was more than enough to elevate it. Putting it on Rollins, only for him to job it back cleanly the next month while retaining the world title effective elevated the US title above the WWE title. That benefits Rollins in zero way going forward.

I also wouldn't have booked him to lose constantly, including being jobbed cleanly on back to back Raw shows before and after Night of Champions. Or jobbing in general. A heel who constantly loses is not interesting. When he loses the title it'll be no big whoop because he consistently loses anyways. There's nothing special about it.
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Old 10-09-2015, 10:23 PM   #72
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LOL - oh no house show losses!

How many of those matches were on TV that he lost?

How many of those TV matches that he lost were singles matches via pinfall or submission against someone other than Cena?
Why should it matter if its against Cena or not ? He's the WWE champion jobbing to the US champion every chance he can. If he is a heel why have him losing so much to Cena. If he cant beat Cena there is no incentive to hate the guy, he's just a push over compared to Cena.
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Old 10-09-2015, 10:49 PM   #73
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Why should it matter if its against Cena or not ? He's the WWE champion jobbing to the US champion every chance he can. If he is a heel why have him losing so much to Cena. If he cant beat Cena there is no incentive to hate the guy, he's just a push over compared to Cena.

A company should protect their top babyface. Cena is the top babyface. When WWE used to run house shows in the late 90s with Austin challenging a heel champ (say Hunter), Austin would have the match won, and then there would be interference to cause the DQ. Fans groan. Austin comes back lays out everyone with Stunners. Fans are happy. Austin still looked superior to Hunter every single night. The difference here is they can have a US title match and have Cena win the actual match and make the fans go home happy.

The point is losing to the top babyface in a territory should never be a big deal. If Rollins was losing every week to some opening card guy, that would be a newsworthy story.
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Old 10-09-2015, 10:59 PM   #74
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Cena doesn't need protection, he's John fucking Cena. He could lose for a month straight and get one win and be back were he's at now. If Rollins was beating Cena on regular basis fans would hate the their "favorite" superstar keeps losing to Rollins and in turn hate Rollins. Why should a Cena fan hate Rollins at the moment ? In no way has Rollins seemed like a threat to Cena. What the use of a heel if he presents no threat ?
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Old 10-09-2015, 11:42 PM   #75
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I think either Survivor Series, Royal Rumble or Fastlane may be the time for someone to step up and take the gold from Rollins, and if it's one of the latter two, it should NOT be John Cena.
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Old 10-10-2015, 02:02 AM   #76
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A company should protect their top players. It shouldn't be "oh, we'll make sure this one, lone, single guy is protected, and fuck all the rest". I don't remember the Rock getting pinned regularly on free fucking tv when he was on his run to Mania 15. In fact, other than the empty arena and butts in the seats match, I don't recall him losing much at all in that run.

Just like I don't recall Triple H losing much after getting the belt from Foley on Raw. Think he lost to Vince once on Smackdown and "lost" to Jericho on Raw. Other than that, that dastardly mother fucker would either get dq'd or cheat to win, and when the Rock finally went over at Backlash it was fucking glorious.

Hell, how often was Triple H pinned from 2002 through his least title run on free television and or ppv? Beating a heel Triple H meant something.

Beating heel Rollins means jack shit these days. It happens regularly. He's a midcard player, booked no differently than the likes of Ziggler or Rusev. The only difference is he carries around a title that should mean he's the man but is really just s prop that has done nothing for his character.
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Old 10-10-2015, 02:22 AM   #77
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A company should protect their top players. It shouldn't be "oh, we'll make sure this one, lone, single guy is protected, and fuck all the rest". I don't remember the Rock getting pinned regularly on free fucking tv when he was on his run to Mania 15. In fact, other than the empty arena and butts in the seats match, I don't recall him losing much at all in that run.

Just like I don't recall Triple H losing much after getting the belt from Foley on Raw. Think he lost to Vince once on Smackdown and "lost" to Jericho on Raw. Other than that, that dastardly mother fucker would either get dq'd or cheat to win, and when the Rock finally went over at Backlash it was fucking glorious.

Hell, how often was Triple H pinned from 2002 through his least title run on free television and or ppv? Beating a heel Triple H meant something.

Beating heel Rollins means jack shit these days. It happens regularly. He's a midcard player, booked no differently than the likes of Ziggler or Rusev. The only difference is he carries around a title that should mean he's the man but is really just s prop that has done nothing for his character.
I think that in the old days Rollins would not be booked the same way he is now but right now in 2015 there is a story that is slowly being told involving HHH, Rollins and judging by the occasional glances Stephanie. Its about Keeping a Legacy, building a Legacy and who is using who. The injury to Sting derailed this but I still see the big payoff as HHH(c) vs Rollins with a slight chance Steph turning on HHH potentially retiring him.
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Old 10-10-2015, 02:28 AM   #78
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I see that they're going to go that route at some point. But the way they're getting there is awful. Seth was this golden boy, handpicked future star, and once he got the belt, all of sudden he has to prove himself and they're giving him pep talks when he's in unfavorable positions when in reality he should be getting the cards stacked in his favor.

They did the same thing with Orton. The Authority pushed him as the face of WWE and all that, and within months it was "prove yourself Randy. Show us we were right to pick you Randy. Don't let is down Randy". It was the exact opposite of what they're were saying before the title win.

Makes no sense. I'm sure we'll see Triple H and Rollins at some point but the path to getting there has been far from compelling, imo.
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Old 10-10-2015, 02:47 AM   #79
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Compare that to the way Triple H was booked in 1999/2000. Yes - Triple H looked cowardly in many of his title defenses, but he also flat out destroyed guys like Mick Foley, etc., and often looked convincing in many of his victories over Jericho, The Rock, Austin (2 of 3 pinfalls), etc. \


Kurt Angle in 1999/00 - another great example of great booking. Heel Kurt Angle was beating a lot of faces cleanly and efficiently (i.e. Val Venis, Chris Jericho, Gangrel, Shawn Stasiak, etc., etc.). Angle grew massive credibility, AND the fans booed him at appropriate times.
Two great examples, HHH & Angle here. Both of those guys were kinda "chicken shit" heels but you knew in a "fair" 1 on 1 match they could both "compete" with the best of them and the result could go either way because HHH, Austin, Rock, Angle, etc., were all on the same level in a "fair fight."
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Old 10-10-2015, 03:18 AM   #80
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I may be wrong, but hasn't almost all of Rollins losses come due to his cockiness and not to his lack of ability?
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