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Old 12-16-2016, 09:56 PM   #121
Noid
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smelly Meatball View Post
In terms of sports outlets, ESPN and others usually talked about the streak match the most whenever they'd cover Mania. This was before the WWE started to pay to get more mainstream coverage.

Ever since the WWE started doing the multi-main events for Mania, feel like that is when its possible to talk more about multiple people and matches carrying a Mania regardless of their actual quality. You still have the big major match such as Mania 29 with Cena-Rock II but also the other main event matches bringing in a big chunks of interest as well.
So you can't attribute this to The Undertaker then? You can't with one breath say that The Undertaker has carried more WrestleMania events and then in another say that no one carries WrestleMania anymore. I mean, there is truth to the WWE trying to use the brand itself as a draw (and hence why wrestling is so cold and no one is really, truly over), but there often seems to be a double-standard when it comes to talking about The Undertaker and WrestleMania.

The Mania events he was put in the chief position to draw didn't do as well as Mania events where he wasn't the focus point. That's just the way history has played out. ESPN might have given the streak a lot of attention, but how much did that tangibly translate to? Wrestling fans that treated it like a sport went away a long time ago and never came back.
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Old 12-16-2016, 10:01 PM   #122
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Would anyone after Austin Bret were the bigger draw over Taker Sid? Even though the matter main evented, it was clearly not the biggest match on the card.
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Old 12-16-2016, 10:03 PM   #123
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Are those rose-colored glasses you're looking back with? The WWF still treated the title like a big thing back in the day. There was a reason Austin/Bret didn't headline. Also ask yourself whether or not Austin/Bret was supposed to be a bigger match than Taker/Sid, or whether that was just the case because Austin and Bret were just...better.
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Old 12-16-2016, 10:27 PM   #124
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I think it was a bigger match because there was a story being built up there that started with them meeting up for Survivor Series, Austin screwing Bret out of the Rumble and the two finally having their blow off match at Mania.

Did Sid v Taker have any kind of build beyond just being the title match?
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Old 12-17-2016, 06:06 PM   #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Noid View Post
So you can't attribute this to The Undertaker then? You can't with one breath say that The Undertaker has carried more WrestleMania events and then in another say that no one carries WrestleMania anymore. I mean, there is truth to the WWE trying to use the brand itself as a draw (and hence why wrestling is so cold and no one is really, truly over), but there often seems to be a double-standard when it comes to talking about The Undertaker and WrestleMania.

The Mania events he was put in the chief position to draw didn't do as well as Mania events where he wasn't the focus point. That's just the way history has played out. ESPN might have given the streak a lot of attention, but how much did that tangibly translate to? Wrestling fans that treated it like a sport went away a long time ago and never came back.
Taker has been a key focal point in basically every Mania since 24. John has always been the top guys, but he's also been in a lot of throwaway matches. Rusev, Wyatt, some triple threats. Like I said, the only matches where Cena truly was the focal point of the show was with Rocky and maybe one with HHH. Whereas Takers steak was something that was a huge part of every Mania essentially from 24 on.
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Old 12-17-2016, 10:08 PM   #126
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The biggest star in WWE history is Roman Reigns, then John Cena. Then Umaga.
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Old 12-19-2016, 11:28 PM   #127
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The hint of Roman/Braun was dropped tonight on RAW. Braun will feud with Big Show while Roman finishes up feuding with KO. Braun might actually win the Royal Rumble.
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Old 12-20-2016, 01:58 AM   #128
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Weirder things have happened. There's no way he headlines WrestleMania, but if the plan is to have John Cena challenge for the World Title, I can't see them having him also tie Austin's record of three Rumbles. That's just...too much at once for the WWE. It resembles too much of a clear direction. Strowman winning the Rumble and challenging for the mid-card World Title makes perfect WWE sense.
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Old 12-20-2016, 02:49 AM   #129
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Except they don't have to really play up the Rumble thing. They can just have him win it. I'd hate for the Rumble to determine the winner of a secondary title match.

Stroman v Reigns will prob be a snore fest if they try to draw it out. If the plan is to push Stroman to the moon, having him dominate a 10-12 minute match makes more sense.
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Old 12-20-2016, 09:07 AM   #130
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This match was talked about, so I will post this awesome promo

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Old 12-20-2016, 09:14 AM   #131
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and this will be a must miss WM for me
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Old 12-20-2016, 09:18 AM   #132
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You'll watch it and you know it.
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Old 12-20-2016, 09:19 AM   #133
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The last few years Mania's been the one show that even lapsed fans I know will check it out "just to see if it's good again".

Feel like it's tough for people to be 100% done with wrestling forever.
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Old 12-20-2016, 09:41 AM   #134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by owenbrown View Post
and this will be a must miss WM for me
owenbrown, Undertaker vs Cena is a big match, even if you hate Cena.

+

Seth/HHH
Jericho/KO will be really good
Dean/Shane might have some CRAZY bumps
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Old 12-20-2016, 10:04 AM   #135
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I hope they're at least wrong about Dean/Shane. I have zero desire whatsoever to see Shane McMahon wrestle again. For his own safety.
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Old 12-20-2016, 11:37 AM   #136
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Damian Rey 2.0 View Post
Except they don't have to really play up the Rumble thing. They can just have him win it. I'd hate for the Rumble to determine the winner of a secondary title match.

Stroman v Reigns will prob be a snore fest if they try to draw it out. If the plan is to push Stroman to the moon, having him dominate a 10-12 minute match makes more sense.
The title on RAW is the main title.
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Old 12-20-2016, 11:38 AM   #137
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Originally Posted by #BrotherVito DELETED View Post
I hope they're at least wrong about Dean/Shane. I have zero desire whatsoever to see Shane McMahon wrestle again. For his own safety.
Would have to see the storyline, but right now it feels forced to put Shane in a match.
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Old 12-20-2016, 11:47 AM   #138
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The title on RAW is the main title.
The universal title is more prestigious than the WWE title?
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Old 12-20-2016, 11:57 AM   #139
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The universal title is more prestigious than the WWE title?
Prestigious is a loaded term. AJ is walking around with the championship that goes back to the beginning of pro wrestling, or at least the beginning of WWE. But that's mark talk.

The RAW brand is the #1 brand, always has been, likely always will be. Make no mistake, internally the big title is the Universal Title because it's on RAW. They did the same thing back in the day. SD got the linear title but big gold belt was higher on the pecking order internally.

That said if John Cena is fighting Taker for the SD Title at Mania, I have no doubt it would go on last. But that's star driven, not title driven. If that makes sense.
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Old 12-20-2016, 03:45 PM   #140
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Old 12-20-2016, 03:55 PM   #141
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Cena beating Taker to tie the record seems like a good move. Actually Taker defending the record would be kinda fun too. But Cena should win.

I can see how they get to AJ vs Shane. It's tough because SD doesn't have a ton of main event talent. AJ v Ambrose has been done a lot. So next option is Styles ends up in the IC title picture.
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Old 12-20-2016, 03:58 PM   #142
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I'm sorry but Cena/Taker should NOT be for any championship. Even if they brought back the Hardcore title under 24/7 rules. Also, Roman Roids should not be after any World Title either. Unless they want 80,000 people throwing trash in the ring.
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Old 12-20-2016, 04:11 PM   #143
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I'm sorry but Cena/Taker should NOT be for any championship. Even if they brought back the Hardcore title under 24/7 rules. Also, Roman Roids should not be after any World Title either. Unless they want 80,000 people throwing trash in the ring.
Don't worry ROH or some other Indy promotion will be holding matches that weekend that only 300 people care about. I'm sure all the right guys will be in the title matches there.
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Old 12-20-2016, 04:25 PM   #144
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Shane needs to retire from wrestling
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Old 12-20-2016, 04:28 PM   #145
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Old 12-20-2016, 07:12 PM   #146
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I don't know if "Raw is more important than SmackDown" is as valid of a sentiment now that both shows are live. When SmackDown was taped and was saddled on Friday when barely anybody stayed in to watch wrestling...they made it abundantly clear which show they cared about more.

But now? I'm just not so sure. Raw has an extra hour and therefore a bigger roster yes, but in terms of guys you could believably plug into the main event on a dime it seems pretty even. That they gave Cena and Orton both to SmackDown was a clear indication to me that they wanted SmackDown to seem important.
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Old 12-20-2016, 07:15 PM   #147
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I think it'll be really telling if/when they do a draft lottery next year to shift up the rosters a bit. In the old brand split it was always: send SmackDown's red hot guys to Raw, send guys who have cooled off to SmackDown. Rinse, lather, repeat.
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Old 12-20-2016, 07:35 PM   #148
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Assuming its Styles vs Shane, Dean's probably a lock to be Bryan's personal pick to dethrone Miz's IC reign at Mania. WWE already started teasing it as a potential feud and dropped everything related to Shane wanting to punish Dean for his antics in the Ellsworth-Styles feud.

US belt gets to have the multi-man ladder match this year for Mania.
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Old 12-20-2016, 07:38 PM   #149
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So we are talking ...

Cena/Taker
Stroman/Roman
HHH/Rollins
Styles/Shane
Jericho/Owens
Something with Orton and Bray
Something with Ladders
Andre Battle Royal
Womens Match
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Old 12-20-2016, 10:06 PM   #150
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+

Dean/Miz
Big Show/Shaq
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Old 12-21-2016, 08:37 AM   #151
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Baron Corbin was probably booked the best of all Andre the giant Battle Royal Winners for the remainder of the current year when they won.
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Old 12-21-2016, 10:24 AM   #152
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Quote:
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I don't know if "Raw is more important than SmackDown" is as valid of a sentiment now that both shows are live. When SmackDown was taped and was saddled on Friday when barely anybody stayed in to watch wrestling...they made it abundantly clear which show they cared about more.

But now? I'm just not so sure. Raw has an extra hour and therefore a bigger roster yes, but in terms of guys you could believably plug into the main event on a dime it seems pretty even. That they gave Cena and Orton both to SmackDown was a clear indication to me that they wanted SmackDown to seem important.
They want SDL to be important, yes. But Cena is transitioning to a part timer at this point. SD is Ambrose's show and RAW is Reigns' show, that's how it's seen from a touring point of view. They did somewhat balance the rosters, but RAW will always be seen as the A show.
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Old 12-21-2016, 10:25 AM   #153
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragile X View Post
So we are talking ...

Cena/Taker
Stroman/Roman
HHH/Rollins
Styles/Shane
Jericho/Owens
Something with Orton and Bray
Something with Ladders
Andre Battle Royal
Womens Match
There are at least two women's matches currently scheduled.
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Old 12-21-2016, 10:29 AM   #154
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+

Dean/Miz
Big Show/Shaq
And Goldberg v Lesnar on the kickoff?
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Old 12-21-2016, 10:42 AM   #155
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Shane McMahon was largely put into his spot against The Undertaker because they needed band-aids because Cena, Orton and Rollins were out and Roman Reigns was flopping bad as "The Guy." You don't need Shane this year. You don't need Triple H. You don't need The Undertaker. All three will likely be promoted as bigger than the usual stars, but it would be nice if we got some proper stories and new stars being pushed this year. A completely naive proposition, I know.

* Styles vs. Cena for the WWE Title
* Owens vs. Rollins vs. Balor for the secondary title

Those matches appeal to me a lot more than any of the part-timers coming in. You've got Goldberg vs. Lesnar as your "special attraction." Pay that off with Goldberg going over thrice and call it a day. Realistically, you have to include Shane McMahon and Triple H though, so just let them fight each other in a McMahon Pride Street Fight. Daniel Bryan can be shown in clips "training" Shane. That way Triple H can get his spiritual win back against Daniel Bryan. Since you also have to include The Undertaker, my personal choice would still be to put him against Rusev and have Rusev go over to set him up as a main event hopeful, but if Taker wants to work Orton it really doesn't matter, and it gets Orton away from other stuff. He feels like a chore to fit sometimes. Wyatt & Harper can defend the Tag Titles against American Alpha or someone. The Miz can defend the IC Title in that giant Ladder Match that is becoming a tradition -- this is where you have Dean Ambrose, Dolph Ziggler, Kalisto, Apollo Crews, freshly traded Sami Zayn, Kane and, fuck, I dunno, Heath Slater? Is he still over? Nikki Bella wins the SD Women's Title from Alexa Bliss and then faces Charlotte in a Champion vs. Champion Match with Ronda Rousey as the special guest referee. Chris Jericho wins the US Title from Roman Reigns to complete his Grand Slam (the only meaningful title he hasn't won) and then puts him over at Mania. Everyone else goes into the Andre the Giant Memorial Battle Royal because they aren't really over or important.

Final card:

* Styles vs. Cena for the World Title
* Goldberg vs. Brock Lesnar III
* Owens vs. Rollins vs. Balor for the other belt
* The Undertaker vs. Randy Orton
* Triple H vs. Shane McMahon
* Champion vs. Champion: Charlotte vs. Nikki Bella with Ronda Rousey as referee
* The Wyatt Family vs. American Alpha for the Tag Titles
* Chris Jericho vs. Roman Reigns for the US Title
* Andre the Giant Memorial Battle Royal (featuring Big Show, Shaq, Cesaro, Sheamus, Braun, Corbin, The New Day, Enzo & Cass, the cruiserweights, Gallows & Anderson, James Ellsworth, Rhyno, The Hype Bros, etc.)
* The Miz vs. Dean Ambrose vs. Dolph Ziggler vs. Kalisto vs. Apollo Crews vs. Sami Zayn vs. Heath Slater vs. Kane
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Old 12-21-2016, 11:30 AM   #156
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Having Lesnar, Shane, Taker, and Triple H on the card is taking away so many spots but lets be devils advocate and be honest, the guys who will wind up in the Battle Royal or Ladder Match because the part timers need one on one matches, well they are aren't as interesting for Wrestlemania as the part timers. And that's just a fact.

I'd rather see Goldberg, Triple H, or The Undertaker (you can keep Shane) than most of the up and commers on Raw or Smackdown.
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Old 12-21-2016, 11:36 AM   #157
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The more I think about it, the more I'd be "at peace" with that card. Whilst I prefer the Rumble winner to headline, I can imagine the WWE counterbalancing the actual interest in Cena challenging Styles for #16 with Rollins winning the Rumble and challenging Owens, as I suggested earlier in the thread. It's not really a prediction so much as "compromised fantasy booking within a realistic scope." It's just annoying and 50/50 enough for the WWE to actually do it -- like putting the Women's Champions against each other or having Dolph challenge for the IC Title in another Ladder Match despite him previously being stated to be out of title opportunities).

* The Miz would probably retain the IC Title in order to drop it to Shinsuke Nakamura on the SmackDown After Mania, in a special title defense ordered by Daniel Bryan. Kalisto would do something spotty off the ladder and Heath Slater would probably be there to kill himself too, just to prove he is grateful for the spot. Kane's there to accumulate legacy points whilst Ziggler & Ambrose are thoroughly uninteresting but have to be part of the card somehow. They also "justify" the Ladder Match as being former World Champs.

* I'm not a big fan of Battle Royals, but at least the Andre Battle Royal provides the slot to kind of focus programs that aren't interesting enough for their own spots on the main card. Enzo & Cass can do some mic work on their way to ring, a few bigger guys can get shine, Kofi Kingston can do some funky avoiding elimination things, Sheamus & Cesaro can bicker as champs that sorta have each other's backs but can't both win, and Shaq can slam the now svelte Big Show. Braun can yell before a whole bunch of guys team to take him out as the predictable winner. It could be passable fun.

* Jericho has got a much better chance of making Roman Reigns look good than Braun Strowman does. I also think Jericho "deserves" a US Title run about as much as anybody. He can help generate interest in the belt and Roman would benefit from working with Jericho in an isolated little program. This would actually be a tremendous way to open the show.

* Alpha haven't really been working on the main stage, but I can't see the WWE giving up on them. They have an Olympian and a really good looking black guy with a motor. They're going to try and turn them into an act people can get behind. If The Undertaker works away from WrestleMania, I could see a six-man with him teaming up with Alpha to face The Wyatt Family. That could be the main event of the SmackDown After Mania or something. I could see them keeping the belts on The Family because I can see them wanting Orton to be in the match where they lose them and they'll probably realize that Bray hasn't won at a Mania, but it'd be a feel-good moment for Alpha if they did get the belts here. That being said, you're bound to get some wonky booking at Mania somewhere, and this can be where that happens. I can also see the rationale being that you need to have The Family strong in order to effectively back Orton later in the night against Taker.

* Charlotte will be at WrestleMania. Nikki Bella will be at WrestleMania. There might be more interesting/over acts in each division, but I can see Vince being somewhat "done" with Sasha Banks and cooled down on Bayley. Indeed, it seems Sasha has to be out of the title picture on RAW. Logistically, having two Women's Title matches could be "Um, WTF?" for a lot of people, and focusing them into this sort of situation kind of works in a streamlining sort of way. I imagine that you'll see other girls on the show somewhere -- whether it's Sasha in a segment with The Rock or Stephanie McMahon hogging the spotlight before someone comes out and starts something with her. Maybe there's a clusterfuck on the pre-show? They could all run out and get involved here in some sort face vs. heel stand-off where all their problems blow up in a physical altercation that Ronda has to break up. Whatever the case, I think having your top star heel go against your top star face is the best decision, and that just happens to be Charlotte vs. Nikki Bella -- at least in the company's eyes.

* Triple H vs. Shane McMahon would happen if they wanted to do it. For some reason, I can see their egos not wanting to get involved with each other, but Orlando is the place for Triple H to do it, because he's got a better chance of being "NXT God" Triple H there and out-popping Shane. I can imagine that their kids would love to see the match and Vince would love it too. It's that McMahon drama bullshit stuff that they think USA Network still likes. If it's contained to limited segments, it has a very WWE place. This is also a match that Triple H should win, which I can imagine him liking.

* Taker vs. Orton would be fine. It is what it is. At least if Orton wins he can pass some of that prestige onto The Wyatt Family.

* I'd like Owens vs. Rollins vs. Balor to be called by Tom Phillips and Corey Graves, on account that they are former NXT Champions fighting over a new belt. It can be used to segue onto the "New Voices of RAW" and Michael Cole can move into other roles and still do his interviews. Gallows & Anderson helping Finn Balor win the belt was my initial feeling, but I can see them wanting to try babyface Balor a bit longer and then go the The Balor Club if he starts to flop. I suppose they could always just put the belt on the face that is more over by this point. We've seen Seth Rollins choke enough just to get back up as it is. Once more surely won't convince the WWE to stop trying.

* Goldberg Spears and Jackhammers Lesnar even though Brock's had his Weet-Bix. Everyone would be expecting another Brock blow-out but Goldberg shocks the world again. Brock re-ups with the WWE for an even more reduced schedule and even more money.

* I'd like to see a double-turn in the main event with Cena turning heel when Gallows & Anderson help him win the belt to become the Cenation, but that isn't happening. I'd also like to see Styles force Cena to submit to prove that he is the new franchise player in WWE. I imagine we'll just get Cena winning #16 to close the show however. Maybe we get a Samoa Joe confrontation to end the show and get some buzz going? Just kidding.
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Old 12-21-2016, 11:38 AM   #158
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In the WWE's defense, you don't want to jam too many people through the door either. WrestleMania XXX was really magical to me, because it looked like we were getting Daniel Bryan, Bray Wyatt, Cesaro and The Shield -- which was a digestible number, until they fucked it. If they just slipped a through guys through, it would be nice. You can give them more focus and make sure they actually get to that star level. Less is more and what have you.
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Old 12-21-2016, 11:57 AM   #159
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ugh why does anyone want Cena & Reigns anywhere near world titles at this point? That's basically alienating your audience. This is turning into Nitro/WCW PPV endings at this rate with trash being thrown in the ring.
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Old 12-21-2016, 12:17 PM   #160
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Cena is nowhere near as hated in the internet community nowadays. He's excellent.
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