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Old 02-04-2017, 10:41 PM   #81
SlickyTrickyDamon
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Originally Posted by Bad News Gertner View Post
Yuck, Bayley is a 2/10 at best
We weren't talking about her looks. Still not even close.
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Old 02-04-2017, 11:12 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by Wishbone View Post
Nah, she's really not. You keep on telling yourself that though. Maybe if you believe hard enough it'll come true.
Okay? I guess everyone besides you and Merc are wrong.
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Old 02-04-2017, 11:56 PM   #83
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When you make objective statements based solely on your own opinion you most certainly are wrong. If you prefer Charlotte that's fine, but to say she's objectively "leaps and bounds" ahead of everyone else is just outright false.
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Old 02-04-2017, 11:59 PM   #84
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So my statements are false? Which mean yours are correct? But making these statements on opinions (which is all this is) isn't right? Do you understand? Probably not but it's there for you to figure out.
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Old 02-05-2017, 12:05 AM   #85
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Charlotte is the queen.
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Old 02-05-2017, 12:13 AM   #86
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She's all right. Not nearly as good as the other 4 Horsewomen, but she has the ability to connect to the audience. I bet she sells more merch than any other woman on the roster other than the Bellas. Just for that alone she should stick around
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Old 02-05-2017, 12:30 AM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wishbone View Post
Charlotte sucks as a face, dude. She's perfect as the "I'm better than you" heel, but her face run in NXT and her run in PCB were both really bad in my opinion. Besides that she's literally the top heel in the women's division and one of the top heels in the company period. I seriously doubt that they'll turn her face anytime soon, especially when the only options to replace her are Nia and Emmalina.

On the topic of Emmalina, that ship has sailed. Emma's dead in the water and to think otherwise is just foolish. Her momentum died a long time ago, and bringing her in as a generic "model" type is just going to ruin it further. I'm sorry but in the same way that many of you seem unable to buy Bayley as a legit threat I feel the same way about Emma. Her image has been damaged way too much to ever make her of any real worth at this point, and giving her this gimmick is not going to do her any favors as it'll just make her a copycat of what made the Diva's division so bland.

Finally I think you hit the nail on the head when you said that many older fans just don't get it, and that's kinda the point. Wrestling as it is now is not meant for older fans. As many here have attested you're all in or around your 30s. WWE just isn't meant for you guys. I'm in my mid 20s, but I'm also very much into nerdy things and I work with children on almost a daily basis so for me this stuff still clicks at times. For you though I imagine it's like trying to watch modern cartoons while having the mentality of a mainstream "full grown adult." You don't get it because you're just "too old," and I don't mean that as an insult but just as a general observation.
I disagree. Her face run in NXT was pretty good by the end. In fact, Charlotte/Sasha was fueled on the emotion of Sasha being a heel trying to take that belt off her. It's hard to find babyface champions that can carry as well as Charlotte. But that was NXT, and I agree that she sucked as a babyface in PCB. But then again, Sasha and Bayley suck as babyfaces on the main roster too. What are you to do? Push the girl that people believe in.

You point out that Nia and Emmalina are the only ones who can replace her -- those are the girls that are going to be getting pushes on RAW very soon, I hate to break it to ya. If they are getting heel pushes, Charlotte as a babyface makes more sense, not less.

I don't really know what you mean about the Emmalina momentum stuff. She hasn't debuted yet. They're running up the time on her impending return, but that is keeping things on ice until they are ready to have her show up. I don't really see how you can evaluate her momentum at this point -- she's not even back with this new gimmick yet. Wait and see how she is presented and what they do with her. Will they fuck it up? Probably. But I don't think you can say "Nah, she's done" before they have even debuted her and put her over anyone.

The thing is that girls like Nikki Bella, Alicia Fox, Alexa Bliss and Carmella are still around. We still have Divas. A girl who can make that their gimmick is going to thrive over them all. That's where the heat is -- a girl who embraces the old tropes of women's wrestling that the new girls are trying to move away from. It makes her the adversary of women's wrestling. It's why Eva Marie was getting so much heat. Emmalina could potentially be like Eva Marie except with wrestling skill. I'd have her come out and declare herself Divas Champion, fuck it. You are still marketing Divas with Total Divas after all.

They can book to children all they want, but they're mainly watched by older men. Kids don't actually go for the shit they are putting forward. This is just my anecdotal experience versus yours, but just because you put a girl in bright colors and have her spout affirming messages doesn't mean that kids are going to think it is "cool." That's condescending and assumes that children can't handle depth and nuance.
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Old 02-05-2017, 12:35 AM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wishbone View Post
I don't get this massive boner everyone has for Charlotte. I mean she's damn good, don't get me wrong, but she's not nearly as far ahead of everyone as y'all keep saying she is. You act like she's Stone Cold standing next to Roman Reigns or something and that's not even remotely accurate. Plenty of the women on the roster are extremely talented right now, especially when compared to previous generations of WWE's women's talent.
The difference is that Charlotte can survive the shit they throw at her. She's not lost because they don't have the same handle on what they want to achieve on the main roster as in NXT. On the main roster, they want products; not processes. Charlotte, as a product, is probably as close as you are going to get towards a complete package for a women's wrestler in the modern era. As packages, Bayley and Sasha ran thin very quickly. VERY quickly. They have also both been exposed when they have had to improvise and actually work as opposed to having very thoroughly choreographed matches. Both work hard and aren't talentless, don't get me wrong, but they've had their hand held through becoming relative stars in NXT. Good booking helped with that, but when that booking is removed they are kind of deer in the headlights.
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Old 02-05-2017, 12:36 AM   #89
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Bayley was already selling more merchandise than any of the other women were when she was in NXT though. It'll be interesting to see if she sells more now that she has an even wider presence, or whether her persona peters out.
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Old 02-05-2017, 03:27 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by Ruien View Post
So my statements are false? Which mean yours are correct? But making these statements on opinions (which is all this is) isn't right? Do you understand? Probably not but it's there for you to figure out.
Okay, I'll bite. How exactly is Charlotte objectively "leaps and bounds" better than the rest of the roster. Please enlighten me. You can see based on their actual work that Charlotte is definitely better than most of the other women, but where is this stat that says she's so far ahead? I've been watching pretty much every week since she premiered on the main roster and I haven't seen anything that indicates this, but maybe I missed it somewhere. Please enlighten me.
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Old 02-05-2017, 03:50 AM   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Noid View Post
I disagree. Her face run in NXT was pretty good by the end. In fact, Charlotte/Sasha was fueled on the emotion of Sasha being a heel trying to take that belt off her. It's hard to find babyface champions that can carry as well as Charlotte. But that was NXT, and I agree that she sucked as a babyface in PCB. But then again, Sasha and Bayley suck as babyfaces on the main roster too. What are you to do? Push the girl that people believe in.

You point out that Nia and Emmalina are the only ones who can replace her -- those are the girls that are going to be getting pushes on RAW very soon, I hate to break it to ya. If they are getting heel pushes, Charlotte as a babyface makes more sense, not less.

I don't really know what you mean about the Emmalina momentum stuff. She hasn't debuted yet. They're running up the time on her impending return, but that is keeping things on ice until they are ready to have her show up. I don't really see how you can evaluate her momentum at this point -- she's not even back with this new gimmick yet. Wait and see how she is presented and what they do with her. Will they fuck it up? Probably. But I don't think you can say "Nah, she's done" before they have even debuted her and put her over anyone.

The thing is that girls like Nikki Bella, Alicia Fox, Alexa Bliss and Carmella are still around. We still have Divas. A girl who can make that their gimmick is going to thrive over them all. That's where the heat is -- a girl who embraces the old tropes of women's wrestling that the new girls are trying to move away from. It makes her the adversary of women's wrestling. It's why Eva Marie was getting so much heat. Emmalina could potentially be like Eva Marie except with wrestling skill. I'd have her come out and declare herself Divas Champion, fuck it. You are still marketing Divas with Total Divas after all.

They can book to children all they want, but they're mainly watched by older men. Kids don't actually go for the shit they are putting forward. This is just my anecdotal experience versus yours, but just because you put a girl in bright colors and have her spout affirming messages doesn't mean that kids are going to think it is "cool." That's condescending and assumes that children can't handle depth and nuance.
On Charlotte we'll have to agree to disagree. I thought her entire face run in NXT came off as forced and just... meh. I mean it was better than the PCB nonsense, but that's not saying much. Sasha I'd also agree has been pretty bleh as a face in general. Her gimmick and character are just better suited to being a heel. Bayley's been about as fine as you can be as a face on Monday Night RAW though. I mean, yeah, she's sucked, but that's a show-wide issue. All things considered she's doing relatively well thus far. Could have used with waaay more build before her title feud though, but that was never gonna happen anyway.

Um, you're the one that pointed those two out as replacements. I never said anything about replacing Charlotte, and in fact I think the idea of replacing her is silly. She's the perfect top heel for the division hands down. Why mess with a good thing? Nia isn't ready, and even when she is ready she's got a built in ceiling because quite frankly monsters are always just obstacles for heroes. She'll never be the top heel in the company. She'll be that monster that the triumphant face overcomes, or the bruiser the real top heel like Charlotte hires as muscle.

On the topic of Emma. She's got no momentum. You act like people are just gonna forget about all the previous stuff she's done. You act like she'll just be starting with a new slate and that's just not true. She's still gonna be Emma to the masses and no amount of fake model nonsense is gonna change that. Bray Wyatt managed to do it but that's because he is just a genius at his craft. How many others have been repackaged in this way after such a mediocre career and actually succeeded? Remember Tensai? That was years of absence and it still didn't work. People aren't that forgetful despite what the WWE seems to believe these days. I will agree that that sort of gimmick could work pretty well, but Emma isn't the one to do it though. Also I think you're giving way too much credit to Eva Marie's heat. She wasn't getting heel heat, dude, she was getting "get the hell off my tv" heat.

Finally on the last topic. Um, it doesn't really matter if there are more grown men watching (though I'd like to see some actual evidence of this statement.) The fact of the matter is kids are the ones buying the merchandise and making WWE their money. The smarks and dirty old men like us aren't where the money's at. If we were WWE would abandoned PG and start listening to our misguided cries for a return to the attitude era. I've seen countless guys on this forum say how embarassed they'd be to wear a wrestling shirt in public. Meanwhile I've seen dozens of kids rocking backpacks, shirts, and god knows what else without batting an eyelash. While WWE is slipping it's not because they're marketing to the wrong demographic, it's because they're just inept at making their product. Also I'm a bit insulted that you'd accuse me of thinking kids can't handle nuance and depth when I've been a major proponent and defender of the ability of children in the past on this very forum. Saying that Bayley's gimmick or any other gimmick isn't capable of having depth is the truly insulting statement, especially when your alternative is a model gimmick and turning the prototypical "I was born better than you" character into a good guy. All of these gimmicks are capable of depth, but not the way WWE is handling them. It has nothing to do with the gimmick and everything to do with presentation and writing. Both of which WWE is completely inept at.
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Old 02-05-2017, 03:57 AM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Noid View Post
The difference is that Charlotte can survive the shit they throw at her. She's not lost because they don't have the same handle on what they want to achieve on the main roster as in NXT. On the main roster, they want products; not processes. Charlotte, as a product, is probably as close as you are going to get towards a complete package for a women's wrestler in the modern era. As packages, Bayley and Sasha ran thin very quickly. VERY quickly. They have also both been exposed when they have had to improvise and actually work as opposed to having very thoroughly choreographed matches. Both work hard and aren't talentless, don't get me wrong, but they've had their hand held through becoming relative stars in NXT. Good booking helped with that, but when that booking is removed they are kind of deer in the headlights.
No one is surviving on the main roster. You're acting as if you think WWE right now is actually working. The fact that Charlotte hasn't completely sunk yet isn't a victory, it's just softening a defeat. She's still never going to be a real star because wrestling right now is pure shit. Even guys like AJ Styles and Bray Wyatt who have all the abilities to be a star eventually get bogged down by the machine. No one is truly succeeding right now, and to say "well x is less bogged down by it" isn't really saying much at all. Under the current circumstances I guarantee the vast majority of past rosters would have flopped just as badly as the current ones are.
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Old 02-05-2017, 12:00 PM   #93
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It is so obvious that Chorolette is way better than almost every other woman. If anybody thinks Sasha, Bayley, Bliss, Emma is close you don't get it. The one who is close wrestlingwise is Natalya, who also is a little sloppy and awkward when she moves. Charolette isn't clunky and awkward in the ring like women usually are which is impressive due to her height. To say she is floundering is rediculous.
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Old 02-05-2017, 12:57 PM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wishbone View Post
Okay, I'll bite. How exactly is Charlotte objectively "leaps and bounds" better than the rest of the roster. Please enlighten me. You can see based on their actual work that Charlotte is definitely better than most of the other women, but where is this stat that says she's so far ahead? I've been watching pretty much every week since she premiered on the main roster and I haven't seen anything that indicates this, but maybe I missed it somewhere. Please enlighten me.
Well, you already stated opinions don't matter and all this is is a discussion on opinions. Wresting does not really have facts because it's scripted.

You could count the amount of flops or clunky moves each woman wrestler does though
Charlotte is by far the smoothest one.
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Old 02-05-2017, 02:53 PM   #95
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Her instagram is the only slight I could give to Charlotte. Does way too much stuff to point out she's playing a character. Kayfabe is dead but this level of exposure is still awkward and off-putting.
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Old 02-05-2017, 03:10 PM   #96
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The women wrestlers now seem terrible. That Alexa Bliss bird is bangin but the rest have got nothing on the braids of old like Trish, Stacey, Torrie etc.

Bayley is prob the ugliest though.
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Old 02-05-2017, 03:20 PM   #97
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They couldn't have a good match though and Trish wasnt as good as people remember.
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Old 02-05-2017, 04:22 PM   #98
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Nah, Trish was really good.
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Old 02-05-2017, 04:22 PM   #99
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Maybe not at first, but she did get really good.
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Old 02-05-2017, 04:43 PM   #100
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Trish was really good. Also had the best female storyline ever with Mickie.
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Old 02-05-2017, 04:44 PM   #101
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Well, you already stated opinions don't matter and all this is is a discussion on opinions. Wresting does not really have facts because it's scripted.

You could count the amount of flops or clunky moves each woman wrestler does though
Charlotte is by far the smoothest one.
So because something is scripted any analysis of it is purely opinion? So if I say that Tommy Wiseau is in my opinion a better actor than Marlon Brando I'm right because it's "just opinion"? lol That's ludicrous.
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Old 02-05-2017, 04:46 PM   #102
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Trish by the end was definitely great, but she didn't hit that point until really late in her career. Also lol at Ruien saying her storyline with Mickie was "the best female storyline ever."
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Old 02-05-2017, 04:55 PM   #103
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Cant think of a great female storyline.
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Old 02-05-2017, 05:10 PM   #104
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So because something is scripted any analysis of it is purely opinion? So if I say that Tommy Wiseau is in my opinion a better actor than Marlon Brando I'm right because it's "just opinion"? lol That's ludicrous.
I don't think you know the difference between a fact and opinion.
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Old 02-05-2017, 05:11 PM   #105
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I also don't know who those people are.
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Old 02-05-2017, 05:13 PM   #106
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But yes, if you believe someone is better than someone else that is your opinion. It does not make it right or wrong. To you though that person is better.
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Old 02-05-2017, 05:27 PM   #107
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I heard she's the backstage skank. They call her "blow job Bayley". They make her wear a bag with a hole cut out of it for her mouth because the sight of her revolting face makes guys go limp.
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Old 02-05-2017, 05:41 PM   #108
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I also don't know who those people are.
You don't know who Marlon Brando is? Do you live under a rock? Are you 12? FFS
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Old 02-05-2017, 05:49 PM   #109
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Sure..... it's rare I watch tv or movies. When I do its 9n Netflix and I don't bother to learn anyone's actual name. But keep on wasting your life keeping up with everyone else on what they do.
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Old 02-05-2017, 05:50 PM   #110
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Bayley is ok. I don't watch Raw, so I'm not sure what's going on with her

I will say that off the 4 horsewomen, she was the most bland to me. She definitely has a natural charisma to her, but so do the other 3.

Becky has a better look, Charlotte has maybe the best look and overall ability, with Sasha being a little of both. Bayley always came off as the least able of the 4, whether it be on the mic or in the ring.
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Old 02-05-2017, 05:54 PM   #111
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Someone find that talking smack or whatever clip where they asked Bayley why she should get a title shot (basically, cut a promo like it's the first day of media training) and she's just like "uhhh, cuz I'm good enough" and Booker T just tears her a new asshole in the nicest way possible telling her that was bullshit and she should be able to do better.
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Old 02-05-2017, 05:57 PM   #112
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I still think Bayley can be a female John Cena type but she's never been a favorite of mine. Just kinda floundering around without any personality right now is killing her though. She's not really connecting with the main roster audience. Her car dealership blow up things have more of a personality than her right now.

I want her to succeed but right now I'm just waiting for the Raw after WM when Charlotte cuts a "nobody can beat me on a big stage" promo and Asuka ' s music hits and the crowd goes ape shit.
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Old 02-05-2017, 06:11 PM   #113
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Charlotte has been the most "successful" of the four horsewomen on the main roster because she has had character growth/development...... at first people "didn't care", but then they got to see her heel turn, and her arrogance slowly growing, and kicking Ric Flair to the curb, etc......

While with the other three it is pretty much "here they are, they were good on NXT, cheer them!" but without the casual fan who doesn't watch NXT getting to see all the character development/growth that they had in NXT to get people that much invested in them.......
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Old 02-05-2017, 06:22 PM   #114
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Sasha ' s done pretty well for herself. Like really well. Becky was doing well for a bit but Kevin Dunn hates her so I guess that's why she's just there now. I still think the quick Becky SD championship win took out alot of the wind from her sails. That first title win has to be a big ass deal. They didn't treat it as such.

Not sure how you can say Sasha is generic when she's been the priciple opponent for Charlotte for the last few months doing HIAC and Iron Man matches to boot.
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Old 02-05-2017, 06:22 PM   #115
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How's Becky been doing on Smackdown? I know she was pushed as their top female, and dropped the belt to Alexa. Has she gotten decent time to develop her personality?

I remember reading Smackdown had a couple of running storylines for the girls.
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Old 02-05-2017, 06:27 PM   #116
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I still think the quick Becky SD championship win took out alot of the wind from her sails. That first title win has to be a big ass deal. They didn't treat it as such.
Yeah...... they be real bad about "building drama" to somebody's first title win..... which NXT does so well.....

Becky and American Alpha both had "anti-climactic" first title wins (Alpha way more so than Becky)

I remember The Usos also had a very anti-climactic first tag team title win......
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Old 02-05-2017, 06:35 PM   #117
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Usos won the titles in front of a rabid smarky Chicago crowd. It was kind of a big deal.

American Alpha yes. This is the problem with having 2 tag titles/ 2 women's titles, etc.
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Old 02-05-2017, 06:47 PM   #118
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I've been saying since the split, the smart money was to have the tag and women's division be brand exclusive. Creates greater roster depth to run feuds away from the title to help build up characters and momentum.
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Old 02-05-2017, 06:49 PM   #119
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Yah....why are the cruiserweights exclusive to Raw? Kayfabe. I get it, it's a 3 hour show.
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Old 02-05-2017, 07:03 PM   #120
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Do the cruisers get any screen time away from the title? 205 live or moving them to Smackdown seems like it'd be better than giving them to Raw.

I imagine regardless of how they split the rosters, the lackluster writing would sink the ship regardless
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