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Old 11-24-2016, 03:54 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stickman View Post
I think casual fans are turned off when they think they could beat up the wrestler. All these short skinny fat neckbeard wreslters don't translate to the casual fan. WWE is a live action cartoon/comic book. Who wants to grab a comicbook whose superhero is a regular joe? Hardcare fans do maybe.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruien View Post
Agreed with Stickman. I fully expect the main event wrestlers to be in better shape than me or be like Braun/Kane type of big. I should never feel I can take on the world champ. I should feel like the guy would destroy me.
Exactly. Wrestling is at its best when it's larger than life. There's nothing larger than life about most of the guys the typical smark want to be stars. They're guys who will please the smarks but do nothing to bring in casual fans. And the smarks are going to watch anyway. It doesn't make sense to cater to them at the expense of building stars who can draw in a new audience.
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Old 11-24-2016, 04:04 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by Destor View Post
Gotta call foul. There a lot going on during punks run. Not least of all Cena chasing the title. And then there's The rock as well. Couple that with the linchpin of the argument being battlegrounds buyrate completely ignoring the fact that there was nothing of meaning on the show. Everyone knew that show wouldnt effect mania at all. Hardly evidence of anything.

Id argue that punk pulled in departed hardcore fans that had moved on to being full time indy fans. Not casuals.
You could pick apart anybody's "drawing power" like that. Diesel is known as one of the worst draws in WWF history but he was on top when the show was top-to-bottom garbage.
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Old 11-24-2016, 04:13 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by XL View Post
You could pick apart anybody's "drawing power" like that. Diesel is known as one of the worst draws in WWF history but he was on top when the show was top-to-bottom garbage.
Its especially easy when punk was vocally disgruntled because he wasnt the focus of the show during his reign. If by his own words he wasnt the center piece of the show then its successes (or failures) cant be his.
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Old 11-24-2016, 06:06 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan View Post
He's just got a better overall style. Styles is an athlete and Owens is an ass kicker. Owens looks and acts (at least when he was in NXT/when he first got called up) like one of those Vader-esque fat guys who might actually be able to beat someone up. Styles comes off more like a Mr. Perfect-esque mid carder who can feud with the top face occasionally but never in a big fight situation.

In fact, outside of Bray Wyatt, Owens might be my ideal choice for a top heel from the full-time roster.
I have to disagree with your assessment of Owens. It worked in NXT, I'll give you that. On main roster WWE, he has to be very close to his opponent in size to pull that off. Owens is less believable than Tazz would have been in the role. When they had him try to stand eye-to-eye with Roman Reigns a few months back, it made Reigns look like a joke for not being able to just wipe his ass with him.

AJ Styles is built like a guy who has fine-tuned his body and style to work for him. I agree with the Mr. Perfect analogy, but I'd also put him up there with Shawn Michaels and Bret Hart in terms of aura -- he's a New Generation-esque "this dude's ability is off the charts" sort of competitor. He wrestles like a star; Owens wrestles like an independent spot monkey.
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Old 11-24-2016, 06:16 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stickman View Post
I think casual fans are turned off when they think they could beat up the wrestler. All these short skinny fat neckbeard wreslters don't translate to the casual fan. WWE is a live action cartoon/comic book. Who wants to grab a comicbook whose superhero is a regular joe? Hardcare fans do maybe.

The thhing Ryback lacked was any coordination and athletic ability. The guy was awkward and sloppy, he struggled doing power moves, and being powerful was his gimmick. It didn't work.

I am not a tough guy at all, whether on the interent or not. I don't get into fights and I steer clear of conflict. I am athletic but not a chisled god by any stretch. I am 6'4", 218lbs, I am not interested in turning on rasslin and watching guys smaller than me in height and weight competing for the heavy weight championship because it's not believable to me when they look like I can take them. Unless a smaller guy oozes charasima, can wrestle realistically, and can talk I am not tuning in to watch.
I'd argue somewhat the opposite in the sense casual fans were bolting en masse well before the switch away from Vince's preference or "larger than life" characters. UFC's rise n popularity and WWE getting way too lazy/horrible over the years did more damage than this era's appeal towards indie-like workers for stars. If anything, the WWE gambled way too much on Cena being able to turn his massive kids market into their future base and didn't have a backup plan for when it didn't occur.

UFC made it popular for regular looking guys to be very successful which gave it a bigger appeal than the WWE and caused the market to shift more towards their direction. Boxing had similar problems with the change and post-Tyson era but did a better a job than the WWE shifting to the smaller divisions for to generate big fight hype.
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Old 11-24-2016, 06:16 PM   #46
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I was a big fan of Punk at the time, but was he as good as everybody is making him out to be? Was the pipe-bomb even that good a promo, or was it just that it came along in a sea of scripted bullshit? I mean, The Miz cut one good promo on Talking Smack and people were comparing it to "Hard Times." Jeez.

Punk vs. Jeff Hardy is one of my favorite feuds of the past decade, and I've never been a big Jeff Hardy fan. Those two were perfect rivals for each other though. I thought Punk's commentary run while he was injured was brilliant, and I wanted to see him go against John Cena, but his other stuff really fell flat. Punk could play well against extremely popular and charismatic babyfaces that could keep up in the ring and work to his style. His ring work as a babyface was really quite dull and repetitive (that spin into the swinging neckbreaker, the bulldog, the elbow off the top -- fucking hell), and it was all carried by how hot he got after one promo.

It was booked to shithouse, don't get me wrong. Triple H should have turned heel and been the Vince McMahon to Punk's Austin. Kevin Nash should have been nowhere near Punk or Triple H at this point in time (he should have been the bodyguard to Christian). But in retrospect, there's a reason that Punk/Jericho didn't go on last over Cena/Rock, and we can all recognize it in the pits of our stomachs. CM Punk and Chris Jericho just don't add up to being stars of the same magnitude. Punk arguably should have been the hottest act in the mid-card.

I honestly don't really miss him at all. The matches we haven't seen aren't enough to really make me wish he was around. Even the potential promos aren't making me wet, because the only pay-off to them are matches, and I'm not too keen on seeing those.

Color Commentator Punk only.
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Old 11-24-2016, 06:22 PM   #47
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Casual fans started bolting when Stephanie McMahon took over creative. She wasn't the only driving force. Vince McMahon's ego put her in that spot and a lot of the WWF's ego during the Invasion killed a lot of interest there dead. The Undertaker deserves a lot of blame for that.
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Old 11-24-2016, 06:54 PM   #48
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Remember when The Rock came back and stood toe to toe to Cena and he made Cena look small? Cena does look like a champ but these stars from yesteryear were stars, guys today not so nuch. I think a big part of it is also charisma and understanding how to sell. Guys showing emotion and intensity helps the believability as well. Watch the Rocks facial expressions when he wresltes, watch Stone Cold, HHH, Goldberg, Lesner. These guys looked pissed off and are there for a fight. I think thats one reason why Cena and Reigns had a hard time connecting, it doesn't seem sincere.

I actually do buy Owens as a champ. Sure he isn't built great but he is built like that guy who picked on you in highschoool. He acts like that bully who picked on you. He has charisma, he can sell the opponents moveset but can sell his own moves also. He looks smug in the ring, he looks like he is there for a fight, and he does look like he could beat you up, but you want to see him get beat up. Him as a face champ would not work, definitely works as a heel.
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Old 11-24-2016, 07:02 PM   #49
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I don't think having giant wrestlers matters all that much. Most big guys are busts anyways. I also don't think most people care about whether or not wrestlers should look like they can beat them up, I think you guys who want this are repressed homosexuals, and when you say you want to see superstars who can kick your ass, what you really want is a superstar who looks like they can pin you down and fuck you.

I also think the enormous success of the Attitude era had more to do with the direction of the overall brand. Wrestling at the time was able to tap into the weird ass late 90s early 2000s zeitgeist. I would also argue that Austin wasn't really "larger than life", if anything he was the antithesis to the larger than life characters that were so common in wrestling.


The problem right now is with the writing. WWE can't seem to tell any original, cohesive and engaging stories. Everything is meandering and repetitive or just plain stupid (see Sting v Triple H story line turning into a tired WCW v WWE angle). I feel like the last great story WWE told was Daniel Bryan's.
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Old 11-24-2016, 07:04 PM   #50
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I would agree. CM Punk brought this stupid era on us.
I think the real blame is WWE making everything be about social media. Tout, Twitter, Facebook etc.
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Old 11-24-2016, 07:23 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by Smelly Meatball View Post
I'd argue somewhat the opposite in the sense casual fans were bolting en masse well before the switch away from Vince's preference or "larger than life" characters. UFC's rise n popularity and WWE getting way too lazy/horrible over the years did more damage than this era's appeal towards indie-like workers for stars. If anything, the WWE gambled way too much on Cena being able to turn his massive kids market into their future base and didn't have a backup plan for when it didn't occur.

UFC made it popular for regular looking guys to be very successful which gave it a bigger appeal than the WWE and caused the market to shift more towards their direction. Boxing had similar problems with the change and post-Tyson era but did a better a job than the WWE shifting to the smaller divisions for to generate big fight hype.
The death of the American Heavyweight boxer killed boxing. UFC and boxing moved to focusing on smaller divisions because there arent any interesting American boxers/fighters anymore. If a dominant American Heavyweight came along again, he would out draw any other fighter.
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Old 11-24-2016, 07:41 PM   #52
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Lots of big ass wrestlers in the mid 90s and from 2006-2011 and no one gave a shit.

You aren't going to get a bunch of people tuning into 5 hours of this shit a week because some of the guys are really big and muscular.
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Old 11-24-2016, 07:45 PM   #53
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2006-2011 had a shit ton more viewers than today.
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Old 11-24-2016, 07:51 PM   #54
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Not as much viewers as Pre-Cena.
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Old 11-24-2016, 07:59 PM   #55
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2006-2011 had a shit ton more viewers than today.
Yup
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Old 11-24-2016, 08:00 PM   #56
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Not as much viewers as Pre-Cena.
You mean the era when pretty much everyone was juiced?
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Old 11-24-2016, 08:04 PM   #57
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Yeah dumb argument @ Ruien, and misses. As STD has implied ratings were trending downward and I don't want to get into a Cynick (although he's right) argument about how viewing habits, entertainment options are different today. My general point is how even with lots of big guys, business is not always great.
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Old 11-24-2016, 08:09 PM   #58
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Well of course having the guys who fit the correct description is only 1 variable but its still a variable.
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Old 11-24-2016, 08:16 PM   #59
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Remember when The Rock came back and stood toe to toe to Cena and he made Cena look small? Cena does look like a champ but these stars from yesteryear were stars, guys today not so nuch. I think a big part of it is also charisma and understanding how to sell. Guys showing emotion and intensity helps the believability as well. Watch the Rocks facial expressions when he wresltes, watch Stone Cold, HHH, Goldberg, Lesner. These guys looked pissed off and are there for a fight. I think thats one reason why Cena and Reigns had a hard time connecting, it doesn't seem sincere.

I actually do buy Owens as a champ. Sure he isn't built great but he is built like that guy who picked on you in highschoool. He acts like that bully who picked on you. He has charisma, he can sell the opponents moveset but can sell his own moves also. He looks smug in the ring, he looks like he is there for a fight, and he does look like he could beat you up, but you want to see him get beat up. Him as a face champ would not work, definitely works as a heel.
Lol, Owens is shorter than 6'0. He acts like the fat kid who mutters something under his breath and then shies away when you confront him about it.

Good for a weedy heel, don't get me wrong, but I don't get where this "tough guy" visual comes from.
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Old 11-24-2016, 08:28 PM   #60
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Well of course having the guys who fit the correct description is only 1 variable but its still a variable.
It's a variable that doesn't really mean shit. I'm not trying to argue that small, work rate guys are huge draws or anything like that.

The 80s boom was about the dismantling of the territories, and the rise of cable television and PPV. The attitude era's popularity was founded on a complete pivot away from what wrestling was at the time. It was Sable's tits, crotch chops, and a cool, beer drinking, redneck beating up his boss. It had nothing to do with big, roided up guys.

Personally I don't think this level of popularity is ever coming back. But I do think WWE can find a way to tell cool, exciting stories again, and they don't need massive guys to do so.
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Old 11-24-2016, 11:48 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by Noid View Post
Lol, Owens is shorter than 6'0. He acts like the fat kid who mutters something under his breath and then shies away when you confront him about it.

Good for a weedy heel, don't get me wrong, but I don't get where this "tough guy" visual comes from.
Steen being a top guy in the business is basically why im against this era as a whole. Looks like a fan crawled over the barrier and started putting matches together.

If he was booked like a pussy I'd be able to deal.
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Old 11-25-2016, 12:15 AM   #62
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you sound like a bitter worker who's jealous of Kevin Steen.
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Old 11-25-2016, 12:24 AM   #63
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you sound like a bitter worker who's jealous of Kevin Steen.
Oh on a personal level im thrilled for him. Guy lives for the business. But i cant watch the product anymore.
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Old 11-25-2016, 12:28 AM   #64
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Steens position gives license to every fat twat on the indys to not hit the gym amd work in a tshirt
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Old 11-25-2016, 12:34 AM   #65
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Fat people can have good cardio. Just because he looks like a fat slob doesn't mean he's not in good cardiovascular shape. He's there because he has a unique look. Him succeeding doesn't mean WWE will be getting more of his type. He's the only one and will be the only one.
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Old 11-25-2016, 01:37 AM   #66
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Well they have 2 already sooooooooo
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Old 11-25-2016, 03:56 AM   #67
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Oh on a personal level im thrilled for him. Guy lives for the business. But i cant watch the product anymore.
Owens is the thing that makes it impossible for you to watch the product today? A fat guy as champ is literally the biggest reason why you can't watch the product? I'm not trying to sound like a dick, but come on, dude. There are sooooo many more reasons to hate the product that are far more detrimental at this point. The product as a whole is shit these days. Blaming that on any one factor is just dumb.
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Old 11-25-2016, 03:56 AM   #68
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Maybe everyone here is right and big muscly hulks would raise ratings (I still stand by my statement that it wouldn't have that big of an impact and will continue to until proven otherwise.) However, even if they would help the ratings it wouldn't fix the product and suddenly bring back the days of yore. Even if they fixed the writing, gave the talent more freedom like back in the day, and essentially just fixed everything wrong with the company right this minute it still wouldn't bring back the kind of audience pro-wrestling used to. We live in a different world today. The carny spectacle that is pro-wrestling just will never draw in the kind of crowds it used to ever again. They could definitely do better than they are now, but I honestly believe all of our debating about this is moot in the long run. Wrestling is going the way of its cousins, the circus and side-show. While I think wrestling has enough of a subculture around it to stay alive and not completely disappear like the former are doing I don't think it's possible to change the connotations that wrestling has in mainstream culture. I never hear non-wrestling fans say "eww you watch wrestling even though it doesn't have big stars anymore." I hear them say "eww you watch wrestling? You know it's fake and/or gay, right?" I'm sorry, but I just can't buy that going back to the old way would do anything to change that perception. In fact if anything I think it'd make it worse.
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Old 11-25-2016, 05:18 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by Wishbone View Post
Owens is the thing that makes it impossible for you to watch the product today? A fat guy as champ is literally the biggest reason why you can't watch the product? I'm not trying to sound like a dick, but come on, dude. There are sooooo many more reasons to hate the product that are far more detrimental at this point. The product as a whole is shit these days. Blaming that on any one factor is just dumb.
I dunno, man, it's a pretty big turn-off for me too.
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Old 11-25-2016, 05:21 AM   #70
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Just the other day I heard two guys at the pub talking about UFC. These are the sort of guys that would make fun of a guy for liking "fake pussy" wrestling. They were talking about one of the guys in one of the fights -- I dunno, but it was the heel. And I say heel, because they were honestly talking about the guy being a cocky prick they want to see get his shit sorted.

You can still work people in 2016. A lot of people didn't know what the fuck was going on with CM Punk in 2011. People got fucking worked by The Miz talking shit to Daniel Bryan on a SmackDown post-show. You get guys that people think could beat the shit out of each other, and you can convey the idea that their ego won't allow them to be walked over, because they're the real deal -- you've got potential draws.

Everybody is so convinced that wrestling is an indy circle jerk that no one even fucking tries anymore. The Revival tried and got heat with Bubba Ray Dudley and Road Dogg for fuck's sake.
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Old 11-25-2016, 05:41 AM   #71
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Quote:
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Steen being a top guy in the business is basically why im against this era as a whole. Looks like a fan crawled over the barrier and started putting matches together.

If he was booked like a pussy I'd be able to deal.
I think I told this in 100,001 replies, but I showed him to a friend and she thought he was a joke wrestler, just because he's so "not what you'd expect." You'd think it'd be in a good way, but not so. He's the antithesis of what people associate with wrestling in many ways. It never dawned on me until someone laid it out like that. He doesn't look ripped, he doesn't have crazy hair, he's not loud and riddled with catchphrases, he does "joke moves" (that was in respond to him faking a dive and hitting a clothesline) and he does a "stand-up routine." He was described as a kid trying to be cool. I honestly think you need to be a smark to "get him." If you like wrestling, you might have time for his shtick, but he's not hooking your average person.

But she also thought Dolph Ziggler was a freak too. That's just anecdotal, but maybe we should face the fact that some of the guys "we" love just don't draw. Sorry guys.

When it comes to a guy like Kevin Owens, I think about Bobby Heenan. Now, I might be off on this. I've looked for the reason Bobby Heenan quit being an active wrestler. I've heard he was a pretty good worker though. Maybe he got injured and tried to make another go of it, but he still took the occasional bump as a manager. I look at Heenan and I don't see a wrestler though. I see a smug weasel whose brain is his best weapon, realized it, and became a bonafide legend because of it.

Heenan might have been a wonderful wrestler, but he was never going to be the AWA World Heavyweight Champion, or WWF World Champion. He could manage them though. I hate to sound like millenial-hating CyNick, but we live in a world now where everybody gets a turn, and if a dude can technically take bumps and chain together a sequence of moves, then he's counted as a worker and he gets the same sort of push as someone else. Brian Hildebrand becomes to mind too. He was apparently a great little worker, but was too small to be a threat in the day, so he was a referee.

Now it's like "Well, Spike Dudley works hard and can put together some moves. Maybe we should make him the World Champion? It'd be different and people seem to really love Spike." You're seeing James Ellsworth beat the WWE Champion each week, Kevin Owens is the RAW World Champion, Goldberg is legitimately the most bad-ass star they have in 2016, and it's fine that he beat Brock Lesnar because no one else could do it believably. But it's all fine, because the boys can all "work" right. Part of working is making people believe in you, thus putting asses in seats.

I'm just ranting and raving now, but I honestly think it is more damaging to the business than a "feel good" brigade would have you think. Somewhere the ceiling became lower and the prerequisites for being a top guy were lifted. Do you really think Kevin Owens is better than Bobby Heenan? It seems like a weird comparison to make, but I need to use someone that is loved that never got given a World Title despite their talent. What about Brad Armstrong? Dean Malenko? Mr. Perfect? These guys never got WCW or WWF World Title reigns, despite being so good in the ring; Mr. Perfect was good on the mic too. But apparently you're a cunt for thinking that maybe the nut-busting for Kevin Owens isn't proportionate.
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Old 11-25-2016, 05:49 AM   #72
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Dean Malenko? Mr. Perfect? These guys never got WCW or WWF World Title reigns, despite being so good in the ring; Mr. Perfect was good on the mic too. But apparently you're a cunt for thinking that maybe the nut-busting for Kevin Owens isn't proportionate.
The thing is these guys were over with the crowds but just didn't have the politicking ability of a Hulk Hogan.

Would Perfect have replaced Bret Hart in the title picture if he would not have gotten injured?
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Old 11-25-2016, 05:58 AM   #73
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These are fair points, and maybe Owens is a master of politics, but is he really the A1 guy? Is he really that over?
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Old 11-25-2016, 06:41 AM   #74
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Kevin Owens = Tank Abbott in the UFC (not WCW lol). I get the appeal.
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Old 11-25-2016, 07:20 AM   #75
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Quote:
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These are fair points, and maybe Owens is a master of politics, but is he really the A1 guy? Is he really that over?
He has the tools to get himself over and is in the position to be able to work with larger and small opponents and make it look "real". In an era with no managers he has the means to get himself over and be entertaining. He has "it" for the current era. I think where he might be on a roster would depend on the era.
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Old 11-25-2016, 10:05 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by Wishbone View Post
Owens is the thing that makes it impossible for you to watch the product today? A fat guy as champ is literally the biggest reason why you can't watch the product? I'm not trying to sound like a dick, but come on, dude. There are sooooo many more reasons to hate the product that are far more detrimental at this point. The product as a whole is shit these days. Blaming that on any one factor is just dumb.
I think if he's the top guy you diminish the product completely. I look at him the same way you would look at David Arquette.
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Old 11-25-2016, 10:42 AM   #77
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I'd rather have a loud crowd than a silent one, so I like the crowds.

Love them or hate them, it's all WWE's fault for them. They've driven away their casual audience with terrible TV and that's all they have left.
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Old 11-25-2016, 10:57 AM   #78
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I feel WWE's problems are far more an issue of booking that an issue of people not having "the look". Yes dudes like James Ellsworth and Colin Delaney look like complete jobbers and should be presented as such (get the shit beat out of them, when they win it's only because they got a significant amount of help) - but I don't think smaller wrestlers automatically turn off the audience if they end up headlining. I feel it can be booked believably in a way that the entire audience would accept, it just takes perfect execution - which WWE doesn't often do.

But if they're trying to draw in kids - I don't think kids are terribly picky about their wrasslers. Smaller guys probably appeal to them more than adults because when a kid sees a smaller wrestler succeeding it could make them think that someday, they could do the same thing. Basically I think if a kid likes wrestling they're going to eat it up no matter who's on.
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Old 11-25-2016, 11:00 AM   #79
Evil Vito
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Just stop with the 50/50 booking bullshit. No matter who you're pushing - big guy, small guy, whatever...you don't need every wrestler on the goddamn roster trading wins with each other every week. And don't have two guys who are supposed to have a marquee PPV match wrestle each other 4854395894859 times in the build up to that PPV. Certainly not in singles action and if it's a tag match, the heel champion should want to tag the fuck out as soon as the guy he's feuding gets tagged in. Give people a reason to want to see the face get his hands on the heel at the PPV.
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Old 11-25-2016, 11:52 AM   #80
Juan
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I don't think I've ever seen/met a wrestling fan that could "take" any WWE wrestler lol
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