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Old 11-26-2016, 09:02 AM   #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fignuts View Post
I dunno

Smark era has given us a lot of really good matches. Could probably use more good big guys. They are impressive to see and all that, but I'll take Cena vs Styles and Owens vs Zayn over Braun vs Rowan any day.
Agreed
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Old 11-26-2016, 12:11 PM   #122
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Wrestling works best when there are guys and gals of all shapes and sizes and you get different styles of wrestling in the mix. There's something for everybody. That's why I don't at all buy into the idea of fans being turned off of the product because not enough guys have the right "look". Maybe some are, but I don't think that's the main reason people leave.

The main reason people leave is because the booking is fucking dreadful and goes in a never-ending circle.
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Old 11-26-2016, 12:13 PM   #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan View Post
Cesaro and Dolph Ziggler put on a technical classic. Cool. I have no interest in it. Neither one gains or loses anything from it. It's just two dudes fighting ultimately for nothing because we're in an era where it's been made perfectly clear that there's no consequence to any match unless it's a direct one like for a title or some other kind of reward. And the titles don't really mean shit anymore so even that can only capture my interest so much.
This is exactly it. The in-ring WWE product has NEVER been better. The roster is stacked with incredible performers putting on great matches every week, but nothing ever happens. Midcard stories in particular seem to mean dick all, and I find it impossible to get invested in them because years of booking has taught me that whatever happens will be forgotten about within a month.
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Old 11-26-2016, 12:38 PM   #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by #BrotherVito DELETED View Post
Wrestling works best when there are guys and gals of all shapes and sizes and you get different styles of wrestling in the mix. There's something for everybody. That's why I don't at all buy into the idea of fans being turned off of the product because not enough guys have the right "look". Maybe some are, but I don't think that's the main reason people leave.

The main reason people leave is because the booking is fucking dreadful and goes in a never-ending circle.
And some of that awful booking is using guys who look like marks as tough guys.

Steen would make an excellent every man underdog baby getting little shine and one sided heats stealing wins with flash pins.
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Old 11-26-2016, 01:02 PM   #125
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A 6', 260 lb man being an underdog babyface getting fluke wins. I wonder why you aren't on creative.
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Old 11-26-2016, 02:24 PM   #126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by #BrotherVito DELETED View Post
A 6', 260 lb man being an underdog babyface getting fluke wins. I wonder why you aren't on creative.
Lol you believe those stats are real. 6' in boots MAYBE
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Old 11-26-2016, 03:03 PM   #127
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Yeah, I think Owens is around 5'10”/5'11”, but I'm just going by photographs.

He's much smaller than Seth Rollins who is 6'1”, but the size difference between Rollins and Bálor doesn't look as big as the difference between Rollins and Owens.
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Old 11-26-2016, 03:23 PM   #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Destor View Post
Lol you believe those stats are real. 6' in boots MAYBE
Who cares if it's off by an inch or two? He's still 260 lbs. The idea of having him being a babyface who can only get fluke wins is hilarious. It's not like he's James Ellsworth.
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Old 11-26-2016, 05:08 PM   #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by #BrotherVito DELETED View Post
This is exactly it. The in-ring WWE product has NEVER been better. The roster is stacked with incredible performers putting on great matches every week, but nothing ever happens. Midcard stories in particular seem to mean dick all, and I find it impossible to get invested in them because years of booking has taught me that whatever happens will be forgotten about within a month.
I am not sure if I can agree with the in ring product being best nowadays. They have banned so many moves, many guys have weak looking finishers, finishers don't mean anything, as I said earlier guys don't seem to sell all that well anymore, I think the in ring product now is dull. A prime example is the cruiserweights, I don't find their in ring product compelling at all, for the first time ever I see what the wwe style is. The Miz got flack by DB for wrestling too wwe style but he is the prototypical wwe style wrestler but what he does very well is show emotion and sell so I can buy him as legit. Most guys now wrestle that style but lack the personality to make it compelling.
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Old 11-26-2016, 05:34 PM   #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Destor View Post
And some of that awful booking is using guys who look like marks as tough guys.

Steen would make an excellent every man underdog baby getting little shine and one sided heats stealing wins with flash pins.
Yeah see, but he's 260 pounds and has a bad attitude so it wouldn't work. The fact that he's not built like a stud makes him work even more as a heel. You're clinging desperately to something utterly subjective.
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Old 11-26-2016, 11:10 PM   #131
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The problem with guys that look like marks being pushed as world-beaters is that it exposes how fake it is, for one, but also that a smaller guy needs to be better than a bigger guy to get that heat over him. Owens reportedly wanted The Undertaker match. I'm not the biggest Taker fan in the world, but let's assume he was a total pro he wanted to do business -- for him to get beaten down by Owens, he's going to need to concede that a dude half his age but looks twice as bad is better pound-for-pound than he is. That's the only way it makes sense. Dean Ambrose had a bit of a whinge about Brock not wanting to do work with him, but when the dude is built like a retired swimmer, why would Brock want to give him anything?

Wrestling is a work, but a lot of people forget that you're trying to convince people that it is real. I fell into the trap of thinking ironic wrestling could work a few years ago. My thinking was that you can't point out how ridiculously fake it is if it's obviously ridiculously fake, but that's like making a bad movie on purpose so that no one can tell you how bad it is. Give it a real shot and try and make some real money. But no one wants to concede that we can't all be The Rock, Stone Cold Steve Austin, Shawn Michaels, The Undertaker, Hulk Hogan, Andre the Giant, "Rowdy" Roddy Piper, Jerry "The King" Lawler or Terry Funk. Now the mentality is that if you start young, go to the gym every day, bust your ass and don't do drugs -- you too can be a WWE Superstar. But everyone forgets that those guys are Superstars because they are so far removed from your average person is.

That's why a dude like Goldberg, at 50 -- and a performer not known for his versatility -- can walk into a WWE ring in 2016 and legitimately look cooler than everybody else in the world. Because he's actually a) a real man, and b) charismatic as fuck. To clarify a) -- I'm all for social and cultural progression -- I want to work with a bunch of cool dudes that aren't going to make me afraid to be a human around them. I don't necessarily want to see that in professional wrestling though -- which is a testosterone-fueled shit-show. Wrestling is where I want to see my freaks and antiquated cowboys.

Charisma makes the wrestling business work -- you have to be able to lure people into the aura of whatever it is you are doing. Charisma =/= promo ability or ring skill. Charisma can be visual too. People don't seem to get that. There are physical presences that own space. It's not just because they are big. It can be how they stand, what they convey with their face, how they walk, what gears you can and can't see turning in their head when they are out there.

Wrestling is filled with a bunch of normies. If The Rock came back and had heat with Kevin Owens, for example -- Owens can be as articulate or as cool to indy geeks as he wants to be, if The Rock says "Go take a shower, fat boy" it's over. Owens cannot say ANYTHING back to The Rock. "Go back to Hollywood, Dwayne" will be met with "Go back to Best Buy, Kevin."

There are no genuine stars full-time on the roster. You could maybe count John Cena or Randy Orton, but I don't even know if you consider them full-time now. They're going to be that next generation of Rock, Taker, Brock, etc. who just come back when they realize they need someone that going to make people remember when wrestling was good.

Destor is 100% correct when he says part of the booking is that you have guys with no physical charisma being placed into situations where the proposition is "trust us." No, you're supposed to make me a believer in this guy before you put a fake red belt on him and tell me that he's supposedly ruthless. There might be an everyman self-made bad-ass charisma in Owens somewhere. Maybe he could be that one guy on the roster who was told "you don't look the part" so he went, became nasty, trained his ass off, can do things no one else can do, and even managed to find love and start a family while he was at it -- maybe people could see Owens as the aesthetically bland sort of dude fighting to make his kids proud. Booking could bring that out of him. What you can't do is tell me that I'm afraid of him, because I'm not.

The chess player is a problem, but you have a board full of pawns at the moment, and very few people have the attitude to be a star. Goldberg has that attitude and has outshone absolutely everybody. Shove your funny promos and your 20-minute television "classics" -- give me Goldberg Spearing the shit out of Brock Lesnar and looking like a mega-star while he's doing it.
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Old 11-26-2016, 11:26 PM   #132
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Quote:
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If Owens fucked your girlfriend/wife would you go after him? If Lesnar fucked your girlfriend/wife would you go after him? AJ? Cena?

Even in the heat of the moment I would cower to Cena and Lesnar.
What if he emailed your girlfriend? Wonder what gertner would do?
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Old 11-26-2016, 11:30 PM   #133
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Sorry Noidy, but fat guys can kick ass in a real fight, the fact that Owens can move the way he does should prove that to you.
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Old 11-26-2016, 11:36 PM   #134
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Owens also doesn't look like a "mark", he looks like props I used to play rugby with. He looks like an athlete who carries extra fat.

I think appearance DOES matter and with Owens, his appearance HELPS his character, it's all a part of who he is.

It's not like Chris Hero who was billed as a badass fighting machine and he was skinny fat.
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Old 11-26-2016, 11:37 PM   #135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stickman View Post
I am not sure if I can agree with the in ring product being best nowadays. They have banned so many moves, many guys have weak looking finishers, finishers don't mean anything, as I said earlier guys don't seem to sell all that well anymore, I think the in ring product now is dull. A prime example is the cruiserweights, I don't find their in ring product compelling at all, for the first time ever I see what the wwe style is. The Miz got flack by DB for wrestling too wwe style but he is the prototypical wwe style wrestler but what he does very well is show emotion and sell so I can buy him as legit. Most guys now wrestle that style but lack the personality to make it compelling.
100% this. Well, right up until The Miz part.

Every match is the fucking same. I really started souring on things when I saw a Cena/Rollins match on RAW last year actually. Rollins hit a top rope superplex which he rolled into a Falcon Arrow and Cena kicked out at two. There are false falls, then there is false drama. I am getting sick of guys hitting moves that they've seen in a video game -- moves they have never won a match with before, mind you -- getting only a two count as they hold their face like this is the most shocking thing in the world as a bunch of self-aggrandizing idiots in the crowd start a "This is awesome!" chant just before the go-home spot where the guy who won the last match sees something shiny and gets rolled up and then acts shocked that when he gave his back to his opponent after seeing something shiny, he was taken advantage of in a fight.

The last WWE PPV I watched was Clash of Champions. Every...match...was...the...same. All of them. Heel goes out, face dives out, gets distracted by something shiny, heel beats him down, hold, hold, hold, comeback, everybody kicks out of everybody's finishes, one works, nothing changes. No one sells wins and losses anymore. You can discuss the semantics of what you mean when someone says "wins and losses do/don't matter," but the people who are over are the ones who fucking sell wins and sell losses. If you're losing, find a way to lose like a fucking king and make it seem like a kingdom is crumbling around you; if you are winning, find a way to make it seem like that "W" in the record book is vindication of 15 years hard work and training.

Nothing matters. It's the booking, but it's the selling too. And it's the same fucking long matches with the same fucking story and the same fucking sequence of events every time. How are you supposed to mine actual fucking drama from a casual audience who is smart enough to say "Hang on, why did that dumb fuck just do the same thing as the guy in the last match?" When you go back and you watch matches from the Attitude era, they may not be a crisp or as clean, but they were actually more fun to watch, because they feel a lot more organic.

The script is killing people and I honestly don't think they realize it, because they actually believe the myth that the ring product is better. The ring product's job is to draw. Yeah...not better. In the snappier television period, the matches were shorter, but you also didn't get completely sick of guys doing the same thing every week, because the holistic full-match experience was saved for PPV, if ever.

I really wonder if the guys wrestling today see value in individuality? I'm projecting like hell here, but I could totally imagine them being proud of doing the same thing as each other, but just doing it louder...but not too loud. They strike me like cheeky kids not waking mom and dad in the next room at a sleepover.
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Old 11-26-2016, 11:39 PM   #136
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dastardly Dale Newstead View Post
Owens also doesn't look like a "mark", he looks like props I used to play rugby with. He looks like an athlete who carries extra fat.

I think appearance DOES matter and with Owens, his appearance HELPS his character, it's all a part of who he is.

It's not like Chris Hero who was billed as a badass fighting machine and he was skinny fat.
Lol, Owens does not look like a rugby player.
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Old 11-26-2016, 11:42 PM   #137
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Anyone from the States who doesn't follow rugby, do a Google image search of "rugby player." I get what Dale is trying to say -- a lot of rugby players aren't "cut" so much as they are bulky tanks, but do that Google search for yourself.
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Old 11-26-2016, 11:45 PM   #138
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Look at all those Kevin Owenseses...
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Old 11-26-2016, 11:47 PM   #139
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Here's Daniel Vidot, the Australian rugby player that WWE were looking at a while ago:



A spitting image for Kevin Owens, I think you'll agree.
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Old 11-26-2016, 11:50 PM   #140
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Obviously there are different positions and there are some bulkier members of rugby league or union teams. Some of them are "built like builders" as we say over here. They've got a bit of a gut and, as mentioned, aren't cut. You can kind of see how they don't all look like underwear models in this picture.



I guess maybe they do look like Kevin Owens.
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Old 11-26-2016, 11:51 PM   #141
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Even so Dale, it's not JUST Owens. It's everyone. It's WWE putting the title on Balor. It's AJ Styles. It's the fact no one looks larger than life. No one. Sure, there will be a coulee guys that look like Y2J in the main event scene but there should always be larger than life wrestlers.

Maybe Braun will fill the need for the new giant but lord knows they will have him job to Reigns and then Rollins. He will then start dancing around or if he is lucky back to the Wyatt Family.

There needs to be wrestlers to become the next Cena and Orton but there isn't any.
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Old 11-26-2016, 11:54 PM   #142
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Wait a minute! I found Kevin Owens!

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Old 11-26-2016, 11:56 PM   #143
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Lol at Noid.
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Old 11-26-2016, 11:58 PM   #144
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Just going to leave this here:
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Old 11-27-2016, 12:04 AM   #145
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I feel mean ripping on Owens for the way he looks. The dude is clearly a freak athlete. I don't even think he looks bad for a regular human dude. He's got a handsome charm to him, and he obviously works hard in the gym to stay in shape and keep the pace he does. He seems well-liked now that he's in a company where he sees actual growth and progression.

I actually know a dude who looks very similar to Kevin Owens and has actually had some boxing success. I'm not saying that a dude like Owens can't be tough. Sin Cara is legitimately tough. Haku is legitimately tough. Being actually tough is one thing. Looking like you are tough is another, and being larger than life is another still.
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Old 11-27-2016, 12:08 AM   #146
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Quote:
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No, but come on. And, for the record, I think Kevin Owens must be fit as fuck to do the things he can do. Just don't tell me you're more afraid of him than Samoa Joe. Or even a 50-year old Undertaker. Or Brock Lesnar.
Maybe not Joe or Lesnar but if faced with a choice between fighting Owens or Undertaker I'm picking Taker. I may not be able to whoop his ass but I'd have a chance of outlasting him. He gets tired way faster than Brock and isn't 1/4th as intimidating anymore.
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Old 11-27-2016, 12:12 AM   #147
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Owens looks like the "big-boned" kid who does surprisingly well in a fight when you psyche him up. I'm sorry, that's just my perception of him. Maybe that's entirely subjective, because I actually do see something larger than life in Styles -- it's the same quality that Shawn Michaels had. It's this ability to surround yourself in your wrestling talent when you make an entrance. AJ Styles seems a lot more bulletproof and adaptable as an in-ring talent to me. But that might just be me looking for the hottest mid-carder in a roster full of them.
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Old 11-27-2016, 12:15 AM   #148
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Maybe not Joe or Lesnar but if faced with a choice between fighting Owens or Undertaker I'm picking Taker. I may not be able to whoop his ass but I'd have a chance of outlasting him. He gets tired way faster than Brock and isn't 1/4th as intimidating anymore.
I've never even been a mark for the mystique of Taker, but I'm not even looking at him sideways. He's "Mr. Undertaker" to me if I'm ever around him. I think ya'll nuts.
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Old 11-27-2016, 12:15 AM   #149
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Styles falls in the Y2J category for me. Amazing at what he does which puts him in the main event.
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Old 11-27-2016, 12:19 AM   #150
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Yeah, that's where I fall on him.
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Old 11-27-2016, 12:26 AM   #151
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Chris Jericho & Kevin Owens, for the record, could be a wonderful tag team. If I were booking, they'd probably get the Tag Titles for as long as they wanted them. I'm not saying I'd fire Owens or anything. In fact, I was for putting the RAW World Title on him after Balor got injured (well, I'd have gone with Brock, but of the four who qualified for the Four-Way). I just would have turned him face in the process and used Reigns as his first heel adversary. Move Rollins and Zayn into a program against each other and have Jericho on the periphery riding Owens' coattails and slowly starting to irritate him.

But given the way things are now, a Jericho & Owens tandem shit-talking with the belts could really bring some interest to them, what with things cooling off with The New Day really fast. Jericho & Owens ending the longest reigning Tag Team Title run in WWE history seems fitting. Put them in angles with The New Day, Enzo & Cass, Cesaro & Sami Zayn (still a dream team for me) and American Alpha. You could realistically spread that out for a year. 2017 could be their year as a team. You can put them on ESPN or the talk show circuit as the tag team to see.
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Old 11-27-2016, 01:40 AM   #152
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Quote:
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Oh my lord. Fine, say they murdered your mother.
I can't understand how you're making this comparison. You're using a situation that is scary no matter who is involved to make a point about who is more intimidating.
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Old 11-27-2016, 01:44 AM   #153
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Quote:
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Here's Daniel Vidot, the Australian rugby player that WWE were looking at a while ago:



A spitting image for Kevin Owens, I think you'll agree.
Looks more like the unholy lovechild of the Rock and T.J. Perkins to me.
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Old 11-27-2016, 04:41 AM   #154
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He's of Samoan descent, I believe.
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Old 11-27-2016, 04:43 AM   #155
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I can't understand how you're making this comparison. You're using a situation that is scary no matter who is involved to make a point about who is more intimidating.
That's exactly the point though. People are saying that Kevin Owens is more intimidating than guys like the guys Ruien is comparing him to. The very point is that almost anyone with a brain would rather confront Kevin Owens than most other top guys.
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Old 11-27-2016, 05:22 AM   #156
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This is what I see when I see Owens. Tank was my favourite UFC fighter growing up.
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Old 11-27-2016, 09:45 AM   #157
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That's pretty much what I see too. Having a gut doesn't proclude him from kicking ass.
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Old 11-27-2016, 09:49 AM   #158
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Feel like people obsessed with a wrestlers' physique should probably just stop watching. The business has changed. Guys aren't roided as fuck anymore because the Wellness Policy exists. The Wellness Policy exists because more than enough research has been done to show how damaging that shit actually is to your health, as evidenced by the laundry list of guys who have died of heart problems before they even become middle aged.

Triple H might be allowed to skirt the rules and roid up, but most guys aren't nowadays. What you see is what you get. If you want everybody to be big the business isn't for you anymore.
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Old 11-27-2016, 09:59 AM   #159
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Quote:
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Look at all those Kevin Owenseses...
Noidy I know my rugby. I've been watching international tests since I was about 7 years old, my dad is South African, and there are still some fat props in the game.
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Old 11-27-2016, 10:02 AM   #160
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Welsh international prop Adam Jones.
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