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Old 10-10-2015, 03:20 AM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The CyNick View Post
The point is losing to the top babyface in a territory should never be a big deal. If Rollins was losing every week to some opening card guy, that would be a newsworthy story.
First of all, stop saying "territory". You sound like a douche.

Secondly, he should lose to Cena. Him losing to Cena isn't the problem. Him losing to Cena and then booking the match to happen an ungodly amount of times so he can lose to him again and again and again and again is much more of a problem. Put him over some guys, FFS. There are other guys Cena can go over and other guys Rollins can face so he doesn't have to be a jobber who holds the top title in the company for some retarded reason.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The CyNick View Post
LOL - oh no house show losses!

How many of those matches were on TV that he lost?

How many of those TV matches that he lost were singles matches via pinfall or submission against someone other than Cena?
Since he won the title, I can specifically remember him losing to Sting, Dean Ambrose multiple times, Ryback and Jamie Noble...

Explain why he has the top title in the... territory as opposed to any other jobber heel in the company now?
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Old 10-10-2015, 03:35 AM   #82
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WWE has this dumb thought process that champions jobbing constantly somehow gets them over. To the point where it can't be an accident. It's gotta be part of a plan in place that champions need to job a lot for... some purpose. It makes no sense.
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Old 10-10-2015, 07:50 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by Damian Rey View Post
Hell, how often was Triple H pinned from 2002 through his least title run on free television and or ppv? Beating a heel Triple H meant something.
Counted singles-only matches from WM X8-WM 21 using help from profightdb.com, and unless I missed something he was only pinned 11 times in that just over 3 year period. Pretty fucking incredible.
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Old 10-10-2015, 06:49 PM   #84
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Yeah, I remember reading Ambrose, Ryback and J&J all got wins over Rollins. Oh, and The Dudleys beat him on RAW.
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Old 10-10-2015, 07:01 PM   #85
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Let's go back 11 losses for Rollins:

1. To Bubby Ray & D-Von Dudley on RAW.

2. John Cena at Madison Square Garden.

3. He lost to Kane and The Dudleys on SmackDown when he was teaming with The New Day (WWE Tag Team Champions).

4. He got pinned by Dean Ambrose on SmackDown. Ambrose is not the champion.

5. John Cena forced Seth Rollins to submit the night after Night of Champions. Cena is not the WWE Champion.

6. He got pinned by John Cena at Night of Champions and lost the United States Championship. John Cena is not the WWE Champion.

7. Dean Ambrose & Roman Reigns beat Seth Rollins & Money in the Bank title shot holder, Sheamus on SmackDown.

8. John Cena & Sting defeated Seth Rollins & Big Show when Seth tapped out to the Scorpion Death Lock.

9. John Cena, Darren Young & Titus O'Neil defeated Seth Rollins and The New Day.

10. Ryback pinned Seth Rollins. Ryback is not the WWE Champion.

11. Randy Orton defeated Seth Rollins.

I'll give the WWE some credit. To trace back 11 televised losses for Seth Rollins, you do have to go back to August 10. That's almost 3 months. And the list only includes Bubba Ray Dudley, D-Von Dudley, Darren Young, Dean Ambrose, John Cena, Kane, Randy Orton, Roman Reigns, Ryback, Sting and Titus O'Neil.
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Old 10-10-2015, 07:11 PM   #86
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So what, 11 times out of 28 shows? Lol
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Old 10-10-2015, 08:03 PM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruien View Post
So what, 11 times out of 28 shows? Lol
But that's in 3 MONTHS as opposed to Triple H only losing 11 times in 3 YEARS:
  1. Backlash '02, to Hogan
  2. 4/23/02 SD!, to Y2J
  3. 5/28/02 SD!, to Test
  4. KotR '02, to 'Taker
  5. SummerSlam '02 to HBK
  6. Unforgiven '03 (World Heavyweight Championship match), to Goldberg
  7. 3/29/04 RAW, to Shelton Benjamin
  8. 7/26/04 RAW, to Benoit
  9. 8/30/04 RAW, to Eugene
  10. 1/3/05 RAW, to Orton
  11. WM 21 (World Heavyweight Championship match), to Batista

And clearly, the caliber of opponent that Trips lost to in those 3 years is somewhat higher than that of Rollins' opponents.
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Old 10-10-2015, 08:07 PM   #88
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August 10th would only be 2 months/20 shows.

To be fair, some of those were DQ and countout losses which, while lazy and boring when overdone, don't hurt a heel as much. 6 were pin/submission though. And he's only won 3 matches in that time. He's real, real bad at winning wrestling matches.
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Old 10-10-2015, 08:07 PM   #89
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Love him or hate him during his reign of doom, Triple H losing was a big deal.
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Old 10-10-2015, 08:07 PM   #90
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That list is missing HHH tapping out to Benoit at WMXX.
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Old 10-10-2015, 08:07 PM   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DAMN iNATOR View Post
But that's in 3 MONTHS as opposed to Triple H only losing 11 times in 3 YEARS:
  1. Backlash '02, to Hogan
  2. 4/23/02 SD!, to Y2J
  3. 5/28/02 SD!, to Test
  4. KotR '02, to 'Taker
  5. SummerSlam '02 to HBK
  6. Unforgiven '03 (World Heavyweight Championship match), to Goldberg
  7. 3/29/04 RAW, to Shelton Benjamin
  8. 7/26/04 RAW, to Benoit
  9. 8/30/04 RAW, to Eugene
  10. 1/3/05 RAW, to Orton
  11. WM 21 (World Heavyweight Championship match), to Batista

And clearly, the caliber of opponent that Trips lost to in those 3 years is somewhat higher than that of Rollins' opponents.
I think you missed my lol. That is a terrible ratio to have your champion losing at.
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Old 10-11-2015, 03:05 PM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan View Post
First of all, stop saying "territory". You sound like a douche.

Secondly, he should lose to Cena. Him losing to Cena isn't the problem. Him losing to Cena and then booking the match to happen an ungodly amount of times so he can lose to him again and again and again and again is much more of a problem. Put him over some guys, FFS. There are other guys Cena can go over and other guys Rollins can face so he doesn't have to be a jobber who holds the top title in the company for some retarded reason.
All of this.

Kevin Owens could still be a top, top guy right now if they'd learn to pace themselves a little better. If he'd come in, beat Cena in his debut and avoided a rematch we could still be chomping at the bit for Cena-Owens II.

What did they have to lose with that? He'd already said he didn't want Cena's US championship, he already proved he was better than Cena. You have the two go off in opposite directions whilst keeping their issues bubbling under the surface. The loss could eat at Cena, Owens could dine out on that win and never let anybody forget about the fact he beat Cena. Meanwhile, he's dominant elsewhere; winning hard-thought battles with Cesaro, or cheating to win elsewhere. Even if he lost occasionally, he'd still have the fact he beat Cena in his debut match to remind everybody off. Eventually we get the rematch.

Instead, they fought 3 times in a month and we know without a doubt that Cena is better than Owens, and they've pissed the potential draw down the drain.
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Old 10-11-2015, 03:57 PM   #93
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The bigger waste was not getting the US belt on Owens. To put it on Rollins, only to have him lose it right back to Cena with zero benefit to anyone wasted the last 6 to 7 months of build up behind Cena add US champ. Had Owens just won it, a transition into wrestling Cesaro or keeping the open challenge going but purposely only wrestling jobbers would've worked fine until Cena decided he's not over the loss and goes after the US title to avenge himself. Easy as pie. Hell, with Cena requesting time off, you could've had Owens put him on the shelf only for Cena to return and build match 3 for Mania. Not that hard.
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Old 10-11-2015, 04:40 PM   #94
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Well, yeah. Not much to add there.
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Old 10-12-2015, 04:36 AM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruien View Post
I think you missed my lol. That is a terrible ratio to have your champion losing at.
Didn't miss it at all. It was a comparison for comparisons sake. Comparing him with a man whose finisher he's been using for several months now.
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Old 10-12-2015, 01:26 PM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan View Post
First of all, stop saying "territory". You sound like a douche.

Secondly, he should lose to Cena. Him losing to Cena isn't the problem. Him losing to Cena and then booking the match to happen an ungodly amount of times so he can lose to him again and again and again and again is much more of a problem. Put him over some guys, FFS. There are other guys Cena can go over and other guys Rollins can face so he doesn't have to be a jobber who holds the top title in the company for some retarded reason.



Since he won the title, I can specifically remember him losing to Sting, Dean Ambrose multiple times, Ryback and Jamie Noble...

Explain why he has the top title in the... territory as opposed to any other jobber heel in the company now?
You get oddly annoyed about things. I didnt realize you were the language police.

Anyway, WWE books heels in a certain way. More often than not they will have heels lose non title matches to build to something. Either a match with the guy who beat them, or the guy who they are building a match costs them a match to build heat. WWE has always booked like that. They seem to be surviving just fine. Maybe you should get a job booking ROH or something and see how you can skyrocket their business. I'll trust the industry leader.

The problem with fans like you (and you're not alone, although in the vast vast vast minority), is you take every little thing too seriously. If you think people stop watching RAW because Seth Rollins lost a throwaway match involving Jamie Noble , well you just dont get it. You're cherry picking matches that you know meant nothing, and nobody outside this message board would remember. The broad strokes are by hook or by crook, Seth Rollins has turned away all challengers for his championship, and for that people should hate him and want to see him lose the championship.
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Old 10-12-2015, 01:31 PM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DAMN iNATOR View Post
Counted singles-only matches from WM X8-WM 21 using help from profightdb.com, and unless I missed something he was only pinned 11 times in that just over 3 year period. Pretty fucking incredible.

How about using a comparable time?

HHH won his first world title in 1999. How many times did he lose between Summerslam 99 and say Rumble 2000? I seem to recall Trips putting over a non wrestler FOR THE STRAP!!! And he never got to beat that guy for the title again. Somehow HHH managed to still become one of the all time greats.

But yeah, keep saying the booking is so different today.

Honestly now.
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Old 10-12-2015, 01:32 PM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XL View Post
All of this.

Kevin Owens could still be a top, top guy right now if they'd learn to pace themselves a little better. If he'd come in, beat Cena in his debut and avoided a rematch we could still be chomping at the bit for Cena-Owens II.

What did they have to lose with that? He'd already said he didn't want Cena's US championship, he already proved he was better than Cena. You have the two go off in opposite directions whilst keeping their issues bubbling under the surface. The loss could eat at Cena, Owens could dine out on that win and never let anybody forget about the fact he beat Cena. Meanwhile, he's dominant elsewhere; winning hard-thought battles with Cesaro, or cheating to win elsewhere. Even if he lost occasionally, he'd still have the fact he beat Cena in his debut match to remind everybody off. Eventually we get the rematch.

Instead, they fought 3 times in a month and we know without a doubt that Cena is better than Owens, and they've pissed the potential draw down the drain.
Did Austin vs Rock draw in 2001?
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Old 10-12-2015, 02:25 PM   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The CyNick View Post
How about using a comparable time?

HHH won his first world title in 1999. How many times did he lose between Summerslam 99 and say Rumble 2000? I seem to recall Trips putting over a non wrestler FOR THE STRAP!!! And he never got to beat that guy for the title again. Somehow HHH managed to still become one of the all time greats.

But yeah, keep saying the booking is so different today.

Honestly now.
Still got his win back in December.
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Old 10-12-2015, 03:06 PM   #100
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Still got his win back in December.
Not for the title. And if you're comparing losing to Vince to anyone Seth has lost in a one on one match to, well, I dont know what to say.
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Old 10-12-2015, 03:18 PM   #101
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Triple H lost less in that "comparable time" than he did during the time DAMN iNATOR mentioned and WAY less that Rollins does now. Because he was a new main eventer/champion and they wanted to put him over by making him look strong and win constantly as if him having the title meant he was actually the best and really tough to beat. Crazy concept, I know.
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Old 10-12-2015, 03:39 PM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan View Post
Triple H lost less in that "comparable time" than he did during the time DAMN iNATOR mentioned and WAY less that Rollins does now. Because he was a new main eventer/champion and they wanted to put him over by making him look strong and win constantly as if him having the title meant he was actually the best and really tough to beat. Crazy concept, I know.
Let's take a look at Trip's stellar run(s) in 1999.

Summerslam - Austin uses his power to avoid having to JOB to him
RAW - Trips wins in what is essentially a 3 on 1 match
Smackdown - Vince beats Triple H for the WWF Title
Other TV's - loses to Mideon and Viscera and Big Show
Unforgiven - wins 6 pack challenge
No Mercy - Trips beats Austin (Rock actually cost Austin the match but a win is a win right?)
Survivor Series - loses the belt to BIG SHOW
Dec PPV - Trips finally gets his big win back against Vince!
RAW - Trips beats Show for WWF title

As you can see not unlike Rollins reign. He lost to a lot of guys while being champion, and never beat any of the top stars on his own. Yes, he did pin Austin, but thats not different that Rollins pinning Cena at Summerslam.

Yes, as 2000 rolled around, they booked him strong against Foley, but he would still lose matches on TV to guys like Austin and Rock.
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Old 10-12-2015, 03:49 PM   #103
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lol 2 of those matches you listed were him being pinned or submitted. 2. And some of them he didn't even lose at all...

If that's your evidence that his reign was remotely comparable to Rollins, I think my point is proven.
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Old 10-12-2015, 04:23 PM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heyman View Post
Right now - Rollins' is coming across as a little too cowardly. Might be better for his character's longevity if he looked more convincing.
Was thinking "WTF" when Edge a crippled guy punked him out when he had New Day behind him.
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Old 10-12-2015, 04:30 PM   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The CyNick View Post
Other TV's - loses to Mideon and Viscera and Big Show
Are you talking about the Night on smackdown where he wrestled 5 times and lost to Big Show because it was a 'ChokeSlam Challenge' match, along with losing a handicap match against Mideon and Visera in a Casket Match because he was unable to fit Mideon and visera in the casket at the same time.
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Old 10-12-2015, 06:24 PM   #106
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Hahaha.
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Old 10-12-2015, 06:42 PM   #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The CyNick View Post
Did Austin vs Rock draw in 2001?
Yes. But both men had been built up consistently for 3 years prior to that.

Austin wrestled Rock 8 times one-on-one between 7th December 1997 and April 2001 (6W/1L/1D).

Cena and Owen had 4 matches between (2/1/1) May 18th and June 19th this year.

Can we all stop making shit comparisons?
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Old 10-12-2015, 07:22 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by XL View Post
Yes. But both men had been built up consistently for 3 years prior to that.

Austin wrestled Rock 8 times one-on-one between 7th December 1997 and April 2001 (6W/1L/1D).

Cena and Owen had 4 matches between (2/1/1) May 18th and June 19th this year.

Can we all stop making shit comparisons?
Its not my fault your argument is built on a house of cards. Dont get sad now that you're painted into a corner.

Your hypothesis is that Owens is ruined because he lost 2 matches to Cena. By your own admission Rock only got one win in 8 matches vs Austin. From what I can tell Rock is still a pretty big draw.

Could be that talent wins out in the end.
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Old 10-12-2015, 07:22 PM   #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Vic View Post
Are you talking about the Night on smackdown where he wrestled 5 times and lost to Big Show because it was a 'ChokeSlam Challenge' match, along with losing a handicap match against Mideon and Visera in a Casket Match because he was unable to fit Mideon and visera in the casket at the same time.
Just like everyone is acting like Rollins loses clean to Jamie Noble every week.
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Old 10-12-2015, 07:24 PM   #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan View Post
lol 2 of those matches you listed were him being pinned or submitted. 2. And some of them he didn't even lose at all...

If that's your evidence that his reign was remotely comparable to Rollins, I think my point is proven.
So HHH dropping the strap to Vince is "HHH was booked like a killer" and Rollins losing to Cena is "burrrrrrrrried"?
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Old 10-12-2015, 07:44 PM   #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The CyNick View Post
Its not my fault your argument is built on a house of cards. Dont get sad now that you're painted into a corner.

Your hypothesis is that Owens is Ruiened because he lost 2 matches to Cena. By your own admission Rock only got one win in 8 matches vs Austin. From what I can tell Rock is still a pretty big draw.

Could be that talent wins out in the end.
Corrected.
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Old 10-12-2015, 08:42 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by The CyNick View Post
So HHH dropping the strap to Vince is "HHH was booked like a killer" and Rollins losing to Cena is "burrrrrrrrried"?
A) HHH dropping the strap to Vince was a huge markout moment... in part because the guy didn't lose constantly. (Also, I could easily argue Vince is way more credible than JAMIE FUCKING NOBLE.)

B) If you're still gonna argue Rollins losing to Cena as if people are arguing that that's the problem, you're making it pretty clear that you're just avoiding the actual argument so that you're not put in a position to defend it. I mean... your examples of HHH "jobbing like Rollins" made that pretty clear already but if you're gonna keep arguing the Rollins losing to Cena strawman (Goddammit, Kane Knight) after the words "Rollins losing to Cena isn't the problem" has literally been said to you already, it's pretty telling...
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Old 10-12-2015, 09:14 PM   #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan View Post
A) HHH dropping the strap to Vince was a huge markout moment... in part because the guy didn't lose constantly. (Also, I could easily argue Vince is way more credible than JAMIE FUCKING NOBLE.)

B) If you're still gonna argue Rollins losing to Cena as if people are arguing that that's the problem, you're making it pretty clear that you're just avoiding the actual argument so that you're not put in a position to defend it. I mean... your examples of HHH "jobbing like Rollins" made that pretty clear already but if you're gonna keep arguing the Rollins losing to Cena strawman (Goddammit, Kane Knight) after the words "Rollins losing to Cena isn't the problem" has literally been said to you already, it's pretty telling...
Losing to the top face in the territory is never a step back.

Losing your title as a new champion who didnt beat the top guy for the belt to a non wrestler who is 20 years older than you is a step back.
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Old 10-12-2015, 09:20 PM   #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan View Post
if you're gonna keep arguing the Rollins losing to Cena strawman (Goddammit, Kane Knight) after the words "Rollins losing to Cena isn't the problem" has literally been said to you already, it's pretty telling...
Quote:
Originally Posted by The CyNick View Post
Losing to the top face in the territory is never a step back.

Losing your title as a new champion who didnt beat the top guy for the belt to a non wrestler who is 20 years older than you is a step back.
Jesus Christ. In the very next post??? lol
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Old 10-12-2015, 10:49 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan View Post
A) HHH dropping the strap to Vince was a huge markout moment... and norman was there.
Rollins is now 19 percent to tying pedro. 70 percent of the way to jbl
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Old 10-13-2015, 06:40 AM   #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The CyNick View Post
Its not my fault your argument is built on a house of cards. Dont get sad now that you're painted into a corner.

Your hypothesis is that Owens is ruined because he lost 2 matches to Cena. By your own admission Rock only got one win in 8 matches vs Austin. From what I can tell Rock is still a pretty big draw.

Could be that talent wins out in the end.
Wrong.

I never said Owen is ruined. I never said it was due to losing to Cena twice.

I questioned whether it was smart for them to have 4 matches in the span on 1 month. Rock and Austin had 8 matches in 3 years. And your example was of two outstanding indivuals, not all that comparable.

Is Owens ruined? No. Do I think he could be more valuable than he is right now? Absolutely. Do I think there could still be value in a Owens vs. Cena programme if they'd not burned through it in a month? Yeah.

You're the one comparing Owens to The Rock. Which is a little unfair.
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Old 10-13-2015, 11:45 AM   #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The CyNick View Post
Just like everyone is acting like Rollins loses clean to Jamie Noble every week.
HHH lost a match he could not win. It's impossible to fit those 2 people in a casket at the same time.
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Old 10-13-2015, 11:46 AM   #118
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The bottom line is Owens was set up better long term by working that program with Cena. You should ask him yourself how he feels about it.

Just don't complain for the sake of complaining. This was an example of WWE elevating a talent right off the bat. If you think the Cena program did more harm than good, you don't get it.
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Old 10-13-2015, 11:55 AM   #119
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Originally Posted by Big Vic View Post
HHH lost a match he could not win. It's impossible to fit those 2 people in a casket at the same time.
So we accept that not all losses are created equally.

This is a good start!
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Old 10-13-2015, 12:04 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by The CyNick View Post
So we accept that not all losses are created equally.

This is a good start!
We're getting somewhere
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