The Undertaker is the greatest of all time...

[Maluco]

...I was thinking about this while listening to wrestling themes at the gym, and the more I thought about it, the more I was convinced.

The reason it came into my head were the different versions of his themes. It's incredible how many times he has changed it up and reimagined the character to keep it fresh.

This is the only guy who mixed it up with Hogan's generation at a main event level and continues to do so in today's 'legend' form. Survivor Series will be 25 years and The Undertaker has been at the top that whole time.

He has carried feuds with lumbering giants and monsters and retained fans interest in his battles when the match quality was poor and he has also triumphed at the other end of the scale, having some fantastic matches with an array of opponents, including some of the best matches ever with HBK.

He has also sat at the top of the tree as a heel and a face character, whether that was as a heel with Hogan in the beginning or as the sinister Ministry character. He has also had entire crowds behind him at the very biggest events as a face.

He is not a devisive character like a John Cena might be defined. Crowds fully bought him as a face and as aa heel across eras and feuds and different landscapes.

He was also a guy who paid his dues early on. Legend has it that Vince wasn't sold on him as a performer and given one opportunity, he turned the Undertaker into the greatest gimmick of all time. People can say it was a winner from the start but it really wasn't. It could have been cartoonish or downright laughable, but he played it so well and constantly updated it and redefines it.

The streak stands as a testament to who I believe is the greatest of all time, someone who stood tall across a variety of feuds, opponents, generations, eras and landscapes. He consistently made the very most of what was given to him and managed to stay at the very top for a very long time, through not just the strengths of his character, but of his performance and vision, constantly changing and adapting to his environment.

He has so many unique qualities and has so many unique attributes and achievements that I believe he stands alone as the very best of all time.

Thoughts?

[Curtis]

Originally Posted by Maluco ...I was thinking about this while listening to wrestling themes at the gym, and the more I thought about it, the more I was convinced. The reason it came into my head were the different versions of his themes. It's incredible how many times he has changed it up and reimagined the character to keep it fresh. This is the only guy who mixed it up with Hogan's generation at a main event level and continues to do so in today's 'legend' form. Survivor Series will be 25 years and The Undertaker has been at the top that whole time. He has carried feuds with lumbering giants and monsters and retained fans interest in his battles when the match quality was poor and he has also triumphed at the other end of the scale, having some fantastic matches with an array of opponents, including some of the best matches ever with HBK. He has also sat at the top of the tree as a heel and a face character, whether that was as a heel with Hogan in the beginning or as the sinister Ministry character. He has also had entire crowds behind him at the very biggest events as a face. He is not a devisive character like a John Cena might be defined. Crowds fully bought him as a face and as aa heel across eras and feuds and different landscapes. He was also a guy who paid his dues early on. Legend has it that Vince wasn't sold on him as a performer and given one opportunity, he turned the Undertaker into the greatest gimmick of all time. People can say it was a winner from the start but it really wasn't. It could have been cartoonish or downright laughable, but he played it so well and constantly updated it and redefines it. The streak stands as a testament to who I believe is the greatest of all time, someone who stood tall across a variety of feuds, opponents, generations, eras and landscapes. He consistently made the very most of what was given to him and managed to stay at the very top for a very long time, through not just the strengths of his character, but of his performance and vision, constantly changing and adapting to his environment. He has so many unique qualities and has so many unique attributes and achievements that I believe he stands alone as the very best of all time. Thoughts?

I agree...I also want to add that hes one of those guys who besides being able to go backstage and tell Vince, "Hey, I'm not jobbing to guy X and btw, book me to beat everyone again next week", he seemed to never have a problem putting any new guy over and making even the worst jobbers "get the best" of him.

[DAMN iNATOR]

I think for sure there can be no arguing that he's one of the greats, but I think greatest of all-time is pushing it.

[Jura]

I could also argue that Sting is the greatest of all time.

[Dukelorange]

A great deal of the top moments WWE has had EVER involved the Undertaker. Casket Matches, Hell in the Cells, were made popular because of him. He's put over EVERYONE from Brock Lesnar, to Stone Cold, to the Shield. He's given the rub to Jeff Hardy and a very EARLY John Cena. Not to mention he was a outstanding locker room leader.


Anyway you slice it. He is the greatest.

[Jura]

Don't forget to mention the first ever Punjabi Prison matches.

[Rammsteinmad]

Maluco makes some very valid, and interesting points. Some of which I'd never considered. But what about mainstream recognition? Seriously... maybe in 1999, but today, how many people really know who "The Undertaker" is outside of wrestling fans? People will know The Rock, Hulk Hogan, and maybe even John Cena through his movies, endless promotional work or generic teenage girls seeing him in magazines and thinking he's hot, but most average people probably have no idea who The Undertaker is.

[The CyNick]

His run with the Mania steak really solidified his spot in terms of drawing money.

At first I was thinking the idea of him being #1 all time is absurd, but the more I think of it, the more I'm in agreement.

[Theo Dious]

It depends on what you're measuring. He has had more longevity than anyone at his level. He's given everything he had to give to the business. He was never the politician Hogan was, he never caused the "I won't do the job" issues that Michaels and Austin did, never moved on to "bigger and better things" like the Rock, never had any drug or personal issues, never killed his family and self. Hell be remembered on a level by himself without question.

[Simple Fan]

Originally Posted by Rammsteinmad Maluco makes some very valid, and interesting points. Some of which I'd never considered. But what about mainstream recognition? Seriously... maybe in 1999, but today, how many people really know who "The Undertaker" is outside of wrestling fans? People will know The Rock, Hulk Hogan, and maybe even John Cena through his movies, endless promotional work or generic teenage girls seeing him in magazines and thinking he's hot, but most average people probably have no idea who The Undertaker is.

I get what your saying but Taker is a pretty well known character in WWE and most fans may not know who he really is but know the Undertacker character. Those guys you listed left the business to do other things so you could argue that him staying around all these years adds to him being the goat.

[Bad News Gertner]

I can't argue with that.

[slik]

He is one of the greatest of all-time, easily.

[Nicky Fives]

I wouldn't say the greatest of all-time, but I do agree that he doesn't always get the respect he deserves in the conversation......

It's not often he's lumped in with the likes of Shawn Michaels, Ric Flair, Bret Hart, Hulk Hogan, etc.

[Maluco]

Glad it has generated a bit of discussion!

I think, to respond to a few and to add to what I said, he has everything, while others are missing something. He is a 9 in every area, and while others have their 10's, they also have 6's or 7's in other departments. Other GOAT candidates are always missing an area where The Undertaker excelled.

Hogan couldn't have his matches, Cena will always have his detractors, Austin or Rock didn't have his longevity and rather poetically, I think all of that is encapsulated in the streak. He is a one of a kind, and although others have excelled in certain areas (some have excelled way more than he has in specific areas), noone has the all-round credentials of The Deadman.

[NormanSmiley]

Greatest character of all time. And absolute hands best handler of the annoying what chants! Someone post it

[Emperor Smeat]

Maybe not greatest of all-time or Mt Rushmore of Wrestling tier but right up there with other greats in WWE and wrestling history.

The streak and him becoming a Mania-only attraction did wonders for his career and longevity. Gave him an extra boost for the latter part of his career while being treated as such a big deal that people would order Manias just for that match regardless if the rest of the card was weak on paper.

[Heyman]

Originally Posted by Maluco ...I was thinking about this while listening to wrestling themes at the gym, and the more I thought about it, the more I was convinced. The reason it came into my head were the different versions of his themes. It's incredible how many times he has changed it up and reimagined the character to keep it fresh. This is the only guy who mixed it up with Hogan's generation at a main event level and continues to do so in today's 'legend' form. Survivor Series will be 25 years and The Undertaker has been at the top that whole time. He has carried feuds with lumbering giants and monsters and retained fans interest in his battles when the match quality was poor and he has also triumphed at the other end of the scale, having some fantastic matches with an array of opponents, including some of the best matches ever with HBK. He has also sat at the top of the tree as a heel and a face character, whether that was as a heel with Hogan in the beginning or as the sinister Ministry character. He has also had entire crowds behind him at the very biggest events as a face. He is not a devisive character like a John Cena might be defined. Crowds fully bought him as a face and as aa heel across eras and feuds and different landscapes. He was also a guy who paid his dues early on. Legend has it that Vince wasn't sold on him as a performer and given one opportunity, he turned the Undertaker into the greatest gimmick of all time. People can say it was a winner from the start but it really wasn't. It could have been cartoonish or downright laughable, but he played it so well and constantly updated it and redefines it. The streak stands as a testament to who I believe is the greatest of all time, someone who stood tall across a variety of feuds, opponents, generations, eras and landscapes. He consistently made the very most of what was given to him and managed to stay at the very top for a very long time, through not just the strengths of his character, but of his performance and vision, constantly changing and adapting to his environment. He has so many unique qualities and has so many unique attributes and achievements that I believe he stands alone as the very best of all time. Thoughts?

Great post. For the reasons you mentioned, plus the sheer longevity of Taker's career, I think he definitely deserves a mention. Although I'd personally give the nod to Flair (i.e. longevity, high profile matches, was often the #1 guy in his territory and carried said companies, etc.), I think Taker is definitely worthy of consideration.

[Blue Demon]

[Maluco]

Originally Posted by Heyman Great post. For the reasons you mentioned, plus the sheer longevity of Taker's career, I think he definitely deserves a mention. Although I'd personally give the nod to Flair (i.e. longevity, high profile matches, was often the #1 guy in his territory and carried said companies, etc.), I think Taker is definitely worthy of consideration.

Flair entered my head as the closest bet to rival him in the criteria I set out, good shout! I would still argue Taker given that his audience was truly global almost his whole career, Flair only really shined as a heel (he was THE perfect heel though) and although Flair was by far and away the greater promo, he didn't have the aura that Undertaker had. That entrance is part of what wrestling is about for me, the spectacle.

While Flair was a fantastic wrestler, great on the mic and had a good character, Undertaker was always pure theatre from the second the gong hit.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Kevin Sullivan believes that Taker has drawn more money than anyone else in history when you add it all up.

[The CyNick]

It's tough in today's era to say who drew what. Personally I'm of the belief the WWE brand is the biggest draw.

I don't think Taker had a lot of runs where he was the #1 draw. I do think he was vital to Mania being as big as it is.

[Swiss Ultimate]

Originally Posted by Heyman Great post. For the reasons you mentioned, plus the sheer longevity of Taker's career, I think he definitely deserves a mention. Although I'd personally give the nod to Flair (i.e. longevity, high profile matches, was often the #1 guy in his territory and carried said companies, etc.), I think Taker is definitely worthy of consideration.

TOP 5 of all Time

Flair
HBK
The Rock
Austin
Tajiri

[Swiss Ultimate]

Originally Posted by DTTS TOP 5 of all Time Flair HBK The Rock Austin Tajiri

I wrote this in my phone and it assumed I was talking about Tajiri. What I meant was Taz.

[Nicky Fives]

I don't think it can be debated that he has the greatest character/gimmick of all-time.....

[Theo Dious]

Originally Posted by Noid Kevin Sullivan believes that Taker has drawn more money than anyone else in history when you add it all up.

Could be. People who would deny this would probably claim that it had more tof do with who he was facing (Hogan, Austin, Shawn, etc) but I always say if a match draws you credit both of the guys involved.

[Theo Dious]

Originally Posted by DTTS I wrote this in my phone and it assumed I was talking about Tajiri. What I meant was Taz.

Odd that it corrected Funaki to Flair.

[hb2k]

I'll go against this a little bit.

The case you've made is strong, but to me the major line to be drawn is, for as much staying power as his gimmick has had through evolution, it has also been through several periods of awfulness that were overlooked because it's a company creation.

Started out red-hot in 90-91.

They turn him face, and he proceeds to have years of shitty matches with your Kamalas, Gonzalez', Yokos, Fake Takers, IRS', Bundys, etc. He was a strong draw until 94, so the bad matches aren't the biggest deal.

He had a good run from 96 to 98. Morphed into Evil Ministry and Badass Taker, and despite mostly subpar matches, gets runs against the top players and is a staple.

Had a terrible overpush in 2002 that stunk, but a couple of good matches with Brock, Jeff Hardy, and at Vengeance with Rock and Kurt, not like everything he did was terrible.

Eventually comes back as the Deadman and goes right back to being awful in horrifically bad feuds with Heidenreich, Dudleyz, JBL, Orton, etc.

It isn't until 2007 when he's in the mix with Edge and Batista that he really wakes back up, and then became the few times a year guy with the long history we know now.

The point to all this is twofold:

1. Taker, throughout the course of his career, is the quintessential example of a guy who wrestled at the level of his opponent. So he's not the greatest of all time on that front.

2. And more importantly, there is no time in his career that the company was ever solely, or even majority, on his shoulders. He was the guy that worked with the star and through evolving himself and the company's stock in him, he stuck around. The closest you can point to where you can definitively say Taker was in a role of a legit difference maker was in the later WrestleMania years, but even then, how much of it is him, and how much is the brand name of Mania? Certainly a look at the Mania 26 buyrate, Taker in the main event with Shawn's career on the line, which did a bad number because of the competition that weekend from UFC, shows me that he's not strong enough a star in his own right to force those buys.

Don't get me wrong, he's had an amazing career and the guy is great. But greatest of all time to me means at least one of those two (or ideally both) have be exceptional. The case for him, as mentioned, is longevity in a key role, but that alone doesn't convince me personally.

[Sepholio]

I would submit that Undertaker is indeed the greatest of all time but only in the event that Hulk Hogan is fully retconned from wrestling history.

[Sepholio]

Also, if Stone Cold had a longer career and The Rock had a more 'consistent' career (as in him being a full-timer instead of once a year) then they would easily rank above Teh Taker. Shawn Michaels is right there as well. And as much as I hate to say it because I am not the guys biggest fan, when Cena hangs it up I will probably have to say he was the greatest ever just for the contributions he has made in so many different areas other than just the ring.

Just to be fair about things.

[Maluco]

Originally Posted by hb2k I'll go against this a little bit..... The point to all this is twofold: 1. Taker, throughout the course of his career, is the quintessential example of a guy who wrestled at the level of his opponent. So he's not the greatest of all time on that front. 2. And more importantly, there is no time in his career that the company was ever solely, or even majority, on his shoulders. He was the guy that worked with the star and through evolving himself and the company's stock in him, he stuck around. The closest you can point to where you can definitively say Taker was in a role of a legit difference maker was in the later WrestleMania years, but even then, how much of it is him, and how much is the brand name of Mania? Certainly a look at the Mania 26 buyrate, Taker in the main event with Shawn's career on the line, which did a bad number because of the competition that weekend from UFC, shows me that he's not strong enough a star in his own right to force those buys. Don't get me wrong, he's had an amazing career and the guy is great. But greatest of all time to me means at least one of those two (or ideally both) have be exceptional. The case for him, as mentioned, is longevity in a key role, but that alone doesn't convince me personally.

Good post!

I can see where you are coming from and I think that is the best angle to argue against it, but I will say, just because he was never THE man doesn't mean he couldn't have been. As a few here have already stated, he was business first and seemed to have kept that with him his whole career, rarely, if ever, going against the companies wishes for him.

As for the points about his career in general, we can hold up bad feuds and bad runs against everyone. The majority of Flair's WCW run was a joke where he was an afterthought and treated shoddily. He came to the WWE again a shadow of his former self with his confidence thread thin (Jericho talks about it in his book).

Taker had some abysmal ideas and feuds given to him but he always retained crowd interest and was always a main event level performer.

I think the majority of wrestlers need someone good to create a good match with. Only a select few really elevate their opponent to other levels, and I don't think that can be held against him in that regard. Almost all the names in the conversation needed good opponents to have great matches.

As for the last point, surely having the longest streak at the biggest event of the year and having the biggest match at a reasonable amount of those events is enough?

If Wrestlemania is the Superbowl, he is the MVP.

[Maluco]

Originally Posted by Seph Also, if Stone Cold had a longer career and The Rock had a more 'consistent' career (as in him being a full-timer instead of once a year) then they would easily rank above Teh Taker. Shawn Michaels is right there as well. And as much as I hate to say it because I am not the guys biggest fan, when Cena hangs it up I will probably have to say he was the greatest ever just for the contributions he has made in so many different areas other than just the ring. Just to be fair about things.

Also good points, but Austin didn't have the longevity, most of his career was as a midcarder before his boom. Rock didn't have the consistency and Cena doesn't have the overwhelming popularity, nor can he say that he has gone up against the very best guys in the WWE in every era.

They are all missing things, or several things, that the Undertaker has. He is the all round star who has seen and done it all, only him.

[Theo Dious]

Originally Posted by hb2k Don't get me wrong, he's had an amazing career and the guy is great. But greatest of all time to me means at least one of those two (or ideally both) have be exceptional. The case for him, as mentioned, is longevity in a key role, but that alone doesn't convince me personally.

All of the stuff we've discussed so far has led me to the conclusion that he's the greatest SOMETHING... if we can just nail down exactly what that is.

[Mr. Nerfect]

I hated The Undertaker as a young man, by the way. I found him so fucking overpushed and boring. Just throwing it out there.

Now I obvious respect his contributions and the great moments he has been a part of and all that. But I really wished he would fuck right off basically between 2001 and 2004. And then right after his return at Mania XX. And until the feuds with Edge and Batista, like hb2k pointed out. And I can honestly say that I don't have much interest in seeing what he does at Mania next year. He's been such a trooper picking up his schedule this year though. He saved their ass for their Mexican tour.

[Mr. Nerfect]

He's had the longest running tenure at such a high level on a consistent national platform. I don't even know if he's the greatest gimmick, in the actual meaning of the term. Maybe the best performing "meant to be shit" one?

[KIRA]

The Undertaker is something of a phenomenon You had a gimmick that on its face seemed really goofy but by sheer chance Vince found the man who not only played the role so well that it NEVER came across as comedic but he kept the character going for years and it kept morphing.The man himself was amazing tight rope walking diving over the ropes his promo deliveries he is a shining example of a package just coming together beautifully. I don't know that there can or ever will be a next Undertaker he is seriously in a class all his own.

[Sixx]

He used to be great, easily one of my favorites. But it's just ran it's course, I have no desire of watching him these days.