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Old 11-17-2015, 10:56 PM   #1
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The thread where we get CyNick to defend maligned storylines, and tell us how we don't understand...
... the actual genius of them.

I will get the ball rolling.

CyNick, knower of all things booking decisions... what was the benefit of murderfucking Booker T's push in 2003 by having HHH not only tell him he was a nappy haired loser who didn't deserver the title, but then beat him clean in the middle of the ring after waiting 45 seconds to pin him post pedigree?

I need to know the long term benefits and Vince's mindset, and why this was CLEARLY the right move.

Team Toxic 4 lyfe
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Old 11-17-2015, 10:58 PM   #2
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Careful or he'll start spewing WWE's financial numbers for 2015 at you.
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Old 11-17-2015, 10:59 PM   #3
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Feel free to hypothesize what our good friend the "CyNick" may profess as the reason for this obviously brilliant piece of booking.
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Old 11-17-2015, 11:01 PM   #4
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Because Booker T didn't deserve the title. Certainly not over Triple H.
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Old 11-17-2015, 11:22 PM   #5
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and totally deserved to have ALL of his credibility destroyed, and seem like not a threat at all.
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Old 11-17-2015, 11:25 PM   #6
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Yeah basically what Lock Jaw said.

I'm trying to remember the timeline, but I believe HHH and HBK traded the big gold belt in late 2002 after HHH was handed the title. The thinking was probably we need to establish this championship, and HHH was just hitting his prime as a main eventer around this time. The long term money match in 2003 was with Goldberg, and I believe when the time was right, they put the strap on Goldberg. Had they had HHH lose all the time prior to that feud, it wouldn't have meant as much. And dont people on here hate when heel champs lose like crazy?

That said, I wasn't a fan of some of the language used in the program with Booker. Similar to how I said I wasn't a fan of the use of Charlotte's brothers' death in the Paige-Charlotte build. I really wish WWE would take the high road as much as possible in their angles in order to not alienate any would be viewers. Obviously whats done is done in the past, but going forward I wish they would keep it classy.

Back to Booker getting beat soundly, I have absolutely no problem with that. Booker is a nice hand, but he was only ever world champion because of a lack of depth and lawsuits. He's a classic B+ player. But not in the sense that WWE wrote TV about Daniel Bryan being a B+ player, and pushed him like an A+ player, Booker was actually a B+.
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Old 11-17-2015, 11:31 PM   #7
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Beating him clean is one thing, waiting the entire duration of wrestlemania to pin him is killing him. You need to keep your b plus players credible.

There's nothing wrong with keeping HHH strong, but if you're going to spend the entire angle burying Booker, he needs to shine in the end. If you spend the angle making booker look strong THEN have H go over either sneakily or with a Pedigree and an IMMEDIATE pin then Booker doesn't come out looking as bad, and you have a strong B plus player that can step in at any time, as opposed to a guy who can never fully regain his momentum.
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Old 11-17-2015, 11:33 PM   #8
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The stalling before pinning Booker was fucking ludicrous. Whenever somebody waits that long to execute a pin, it should end in a kickout. He may as well have read War and Peace before fucking pinning him.
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Old 11-17-2015, 11:35 PM   #9
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Vito, you choose next bad booking decision! I PASS IT OFF TO YOU OLD FRIEND
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Old 11-17-2015, 11:44 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorgeous Dale Newstead View Post
Vito, you choose next bad booking decision! I PASS IT OFF TO YOU OLD FRIEND
How about Hornswoggle being Vince's illegitimate son? Everybody knows it was supposed to be Mr. Kennedy, but he had to fall on his sword and take a suspension for the steroid bust. We get that.

But what possible value could have come from simply punting the angle and using such a main story for months of comedy relief instead of, you know, actually trying to find a way to salvage the angle in a way that it wouldn't have felt like a complete and utter waste of time?
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Old 11-17-2015, 11:46 PM   #11
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I was going to want him to explain away Punk returning so soon after MITB 2011 and them doing a WWE title tourney for no reason not to mention him jobbing to Triple H...but I know he'd just point to the 14 month title reign and say "see???"
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Old 11-17-2015, 11:47 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorgeous Dale Newstead View Post
Beating him clean is one thing, waiting the entire duration of wrestlemania to pin him is killing him. You need to keep your b plus players credible.

There's nothing wrong with keeping HHH strong, but if you're going to spend the entire angle burying Booker, he needs to shine in the end. If you spend the angle making booker look strong THEN have H go over either sneakily or with a Pedigree and an IMMEDIATE pin then Booker doesn't come out looking as bad, and you have a strong B plus player that can step in at any time, as opposed to a guy who can never fully regain his momentum.
Classic HHH hate for no reason.

Classic overrating an above average talent.

Do you know why they took so long to get to the pin? Did you get one of your hero "reporters" to ask Vince McMahon why that decision was made? Was it to build anticipation for a kick out? Was it to further cement HHH because he was the top guy? Was HHH just trying to bury him? If HHH did try to bury him, did Vince have a chat with HHH afterwards? Oh I know, lets just speculate that HHH is the devil, read all about it in next week's issue...unless of course plans change!!!

Its funny, I was at MSG when HHH put over Chris Benoit clean in the middle. You know the guy all your heroes said was referred to as the Vanilla Midget? Yeah that guy. HHH put him over multiple times clean as a sheet. He put over Goldberg. He put over Batista. He put over Cena. He put over Bryan. He put over The Shield. But he's the devil.

Seriously, you guys are butt hurt about BOOKER T. It shows how terrible some of you are at evaluating talent that you hold onto that program with a death grip, as though Booker T was going to mean anything for business long term. Its fantastic.
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Old 11-17-2015, 11:53 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vito Cruz View Post
How about Hornswoggle being Vince's illegitimate son? Everybody knows it was supposed to be Mr. Kennedy, but he had to fall on his sword and take a suspension for the steroid bust. We get that.

But what possible value could have come from simply punting the angle and using such a main story for months of comedy relief instead of, you know, actually trying to find a way to salvage the angle in a way that it wouldn't have felt like a complete and utter waste of time?
Potentially great storyline ruined by a talent. Hornswaggle involvement was retarded. Whatever long term plans they had for Kennedy were ruined, so no point of just pointing to someone randomly and go "okay MVP you're going to be Vince's son"

Reminds me of the Bella storyline, where the talent fucked it up, so they just went okay this is screwed up, and basically tried to pretend it didnt happen.
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Old 11-17-2015, 11:54 PM   #14
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Quote:
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I was going to want him to explain away Punk returning so soon after MITB 2011 and them doing a WWE title tourney for no reason not to mention him jobbing to Triple H...but I know he'd just point to the 14 month title reign and say "see???"
Do you mean why create the 2nd belt if Punk is going to be back soon anyway?
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Old 11-17-2015, 11:54 PM   #15
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They let it go because his name originally was Little Bastard. So, they could said it was all designed from the start if they wanted to. Bullshit though.
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Old 11-17-2015, 11:57 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The CyNick View Post
Classic HHH hate for no reason.

Classic overrating an above average talent.

Do you know why they took so long to get to the pin? Did you get one of your hero "reporters" to ask Vince McMahon why that decision was made? Was it to build anticipation for a kick out? Was it to further cement HHH because he was the top guy? Was HHH just trying to bury him? If HHH did try to bury him, did Vince have a chat with HHH afterwards? Oh I know, lets just speculate that HHH is the devil, read all about it in next week's issue...unless of course plans change!!!

Its funny, I was at MSG when HHH put over Chris Benoit clean in the middle. You know the guy all your heroes said was referred to as the Vanilla Midget? Yeah that guy. HHH put him over multiple times clean as a sheet. He put over Goldberg. He put over Batista. He put over Cena. He put over Bryan. He put over The Shield. But he's the devil.

Seriously, you guys are butt hurt about BOOKER T. It shows how terrible some of you are at evaluating talent that you hold onto that program with a death grip, as though Booker T was going to mean anything for business long term. Its fantastic.
Wow you're accusing me a lot of things I didn't say in my post. Sounds like you have a lot of pent up issues man.
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Old 11-18-2015, 12:04 AM   #17
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Don't remember the match or the long wait for the pin, or really any of the program/storyline/feud, so that may be clouding my judgement on the matter.
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Old 11-18-2015, 12:07 AM   #18
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in retrospect putting HHH over is fine... it's just the manner in which they did it is the problem. It mad H very uninteresting. What made Ric Flair such a great heel champion was that he made everyone look great when beating them.
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Old 11-18-2015, 12:43 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The CyNick View Post
Seriously, you guys are butt hurt about BOOKER T. It shows how terrible some of you are at evaluating talent that you hold onto that program with a death grip, as though Booker T was going to mean anything for business long term. Its fantastic.
The mans a Hall of Famer and runs his own promotion but he means nothing to the business long term.

Quote:
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Booker is a nice hand
Couldn't take anything else serious after he called Booker a good hand.
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Old 11-18-2015, 01:16 AM   #20
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The mans a Hall of Famer and runs his own promotion but he means nothing to the business long term.
A promotion with ROLLERMACKA no less, which is a pretty significant contribution to these forums.
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Old 11-18-2015, 03:10 AM   #21
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How dare you insult PARVIS's BOSS Cynick! You are grounded mister!
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Old 11-18-2015, 03:42 AM   #22
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The whole HHH reign of terror reeks of him finding excuses to constantly hold off him losing because the next big reason is the right one.

Should lose to RVD? No, wait, we'll lose to Kane. Nope, wait, we'll lose it to Shawn to get it back to me, then I'll lose it on the big show to the new star, Booker. Nope, we've got Goldberg now, it'll mean more to lose to him. But lets do this Nash feud first. Okay, lets do the Goldberg thing. But I should win the Chamber first, THEN lose, because there will be more heat. Then I get it back to put over Benoit at Mania. Orton beats Benoit, HHH immediately kills Orton, and in a fluke mulligan, at last, after four years, loses to Batista, and finally the shit cycle is broken.




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Old 11-18-2015, 04:21 AM   #23
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Well, Triple H definitely shouldn't have lost it to any of those guys. Also hb2k, you've pretty much stated in clear writing why Triple H's reign should have gone on so long, and defended him, while trying to argue against his reign. Odd post.

RVD - Nowhere near Triple H's level
Kane - Solid hand, didn't need to win the title
HBK - He did win it, and wasn't that one of the best feuds ever? You know, with Triple H?
Booker T - Not on Triple H's level
Nash - Obvious feud to throw in due to their history. Credible threat, didn't need to win the title at that point in his career.
Goldberg - A legit big name. And Triple H drops the belt to him.
Benoit - Not on Triple H's level, still put him over
Orton - Not ready to be on Triple H's level at that point, still put him over early on in the feud
Batista - Ready for a big push, Triple H put him over.
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Old 11-18-2015, 04:47 AM   #24
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Steiner: HUH? HUH? HUH?
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Old 11-18-2015, 04:49 AM   #25
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Triple H's reign was NOT to make Triple H look strong. Triple H's long reign was to validate the newly minted World Heavyweight Title. It had no title history as it was a brand new title that looked like the WCW Title. It needed credibility and Triple H had that in abundance.
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Old 11-18-2015, 04:52 AM   #26
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Wasn't even arguing against it as such, Mr. CockSnogger, a lot of the points you make above are absolutely valid when it comes to the individual circumstances. But you can see, step by step, why he was able to play the system - there always was a better option around the corner, it just always found its way back until he reached the point of no return and no alternative with Batista.

If I was really lobbying against it, I'd say that comparing people against HHH point for point is an irrelevant argument - numbers were falling with HHH on top, and you can't look at a guy's stats on a piece of paper and say whether it'll work or not all the time. Case in point, one month before they started the Batista/HHH angle, Batista would have been the LEAST ready or capable candidate of the guys mentioned to be the guy to dethrone Hunter. Not a good worker, not a good talker at that point either, not over at a top level, and was just "the other guy" in Evolution for months prior. But they tried it, and it worked out.

Van Dam was far more ready. I'd argue that Kane and Booker were dead to rights by the time the matches rolled around due to the horrible creative. Steiner as a babyface wasn't the solution. The treatment of Orton was inexcusable, because he was genuinely on the cusp, and had they done the Batista angle with Orton I'd argue it would have worked even better.

The point where the Booker argument falls apart for me is that if you hold the title change off for Goldberg, then fucking go to Goldberg, don't wait until September. He didn't need building with a feud against Christian and Jericho in the middle while HHH and Nash stink it up for three months. If you were going to wait, give Booker the moment at Mania, see if that works since Hunter on top wasn't anyway, if not, no harm done, go back to Trips to get it to Goldy.




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Old 11-18-2015, 05:16 AM   #27
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Please at least show some respect to Kevin Nash in this honourable month.
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Old 11-18-2015, 06:55 AM   #28
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Quote:
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Steiner: HUH? HUH? HUH?
"Errybody knows, wants to know, you don't know me? You don't know me?"
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Old 11-18-2015, 08:32 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The CyNick View Post
Do you mean why create the 2nd belt if Punk is going to be back soon anyway?
Yeah you can take it that way. Why not build tension of there being no champion?

And regardless of when he returned, if they had some grand master plan of giving Punk a massively long reign (they probably didn't) why not just have him keep it from MITB 2011 until he lost it? What point did it serve to have Del Rio and Cena play hot potato with the belt? It did pretty much nothing for Del Rio after a year about him talking about his "destiny".
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Old 11-18-2015, 08:36 AM   #30
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Quote:
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Potentially great storyline ruined by a talent. Hornswaggle involvement was retarded. Whatever long term plans they had for Kennedy were ruined, so no point of just pointing to someone randomly and go "okay MVP you're going to be Vince's son"

Reminds me of the Bella storyline, where the talent fucked it up, so they just went okay this is screwed up, and basically tried to pretend it didnt happen.
The problem is when you invest that much time in an angle and then completely gloss over it, it gives the impression that WWE feels its fan base has the attention span of a peanut.

Could they really not identify anybody else who could have been Vince's son and gotten whatever push Kennedy was going to receive? It's never totally come to light what would have happened in the angle but I doubt it would have been something only Kennedy could pull off. At least giving the spot to someone else and trying to make something of it might have ended up with someone getting over rather than just tossing the whole thing away.
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Old 11-18-2015, 08:47 AM   #31
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In no way should Booker T gone over HHH at Mania 19.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CyNick
Potentially great storyline ruined by a talent. Hornswaggle involvement was retarded. Whatever long term plans they had for Kennedy were ruined, so no point of just pointing to someone randomly and go "okay MVP you're going to be Vince's son"
MVP being vince's son would have been awesome. vince tries to win the love of his son by acting all street, but in the end realizes that it does matter if he's cool, MVP just wants his dad to be there for him.
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Old 11-18-2015, 09:08 AM   #32
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And this way, Vince could still get away with that sweet doo-rag




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Old 11-18-2015, 10:45 AM   #33
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Quote:
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In no way should Booker T gone over HHH at Mania 19.

MVP being vince's son would have been awesome. vince tries to win the love of his son by acting all street, but in the end realizes that it does matter if he's cool, MVP just wants his dad to be there for him.


Already happened.
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Old 11-18-2015, 12:32 PM   #34
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There's two flaws that have popped up however, in regards to people being ready and the legitimacy of the title.

Firstly, saying guys like RVD weren't ready for the title because he wasn't "on Triple H's level" is silly. Was Triple H on Steve Austin's level when he won his first title? Was John Cena on "Triple H's level" when he won his first title?

By the time of Unforgiven 2002, Rob Van Dam had been one of the most over guys in the company for over a year. Winning that title would have put him on Triple H's level, or as close as he ever would be, seeing as nobody could come close to being on the level of the guy who's banging the bosses daughter.

The other issue is Triple H's reign legitimizing a title. It's a valid point, but did it really need a three year reign of terror to do so? Do casual fans and ten-year-old kids care about the history of the title?
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Old 11-18-2015, 12:33 PM   #35
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At the end of the day it's all an absolute load of bollocks, overthinking "the business" and basically taking the fun out of men pretending to fight each other.
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Old 11-18-2015, 01:04 PM   #36
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Look what it did for Batista though, a sub-par talent was put over cleanly at 3 consecutive PPVs by Raws top dog and he was set for the rest of his career.
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Old 11-18-2015, 05:14 PM   #37
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Liking where Rammstein took it, as well as Big Vic. But you're still wrong because CyNick understands the business and we're just a bunch of Dave Meltzer wannabes.
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Old 11-18-2015, 06:59 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rammsteinmad View Post
There's two flaws that have popped up however, in regards to people being ready and the legitimacy of the title.

Firstly, saying guys like RVD weren't ready for the title because he wasn't "on Triple H's level" is silly. Was Triple H on Steve Austin's level when he won his first title? Was John Cena on "Triple H's level" when he won his first title?

By the time of Unforgiven 2002, Rob Van Dam had been one of the most over guys in the company for over a year. Winning that title would have put him on Triple H's level, or as close as he ever would be, seeing as nobody could come close to being on the level of the guy who's banging the bosses daughter.

The other issue is Triple H's reign legitimizing a title. It's a valid point, but did it really need a three year reign of terror to do so? Do casual fans and ten-year-old kids care about the history of the title?
Thank you!

Anyone who thinks Triple H vs. Booker T at WrestleMania XIX was a good piece of business is a fucking moron. Anyone who thinks Triple H's long run with the belt, beating down far more interesting babyface acts was a good piece of business just needs to look at their ratings compared to SmackDown's.

That's not a blast at Triple H, by the way. That's just the reality of RAW '02-'05.

Dumbest thing said in this thread: "The long term money match in 2003 was with Goldberg, and I believe when the time was right, they put the strap on Goldberg"

Bwahahahaha!
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Old 11-18-2015, 07:01 PM   #39
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Lol, I remember an article that was written listing Triple H as one of the most unsexy men in the world after he inserted himself right into the CM Punk stuff and made it about him and Kevin Nash for some reason.
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Old 11-18-2015, 08:14 PM   #40
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Quote:
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in retrospect putting HHH over is fine... it's just the manner in which they did it is the problem. It mad H very uninteresting. What made Ric Flair such a great heel champion was that he made everyone look great when beating them.
They were completely different characters though. Flair looked like a normal dude off the street, HHH was/is built like a beast. Not everyone should be booked like Ric Flair was.
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