examples of masterful politicking ?

[The MAC]

Hey there fellas,

I have been thinking about wrestling politics, which Kevin Nash calls " the chess game". We all know about the Kliq and Hulk Hogan but are there other examples of politics that was devious or masterfully done?

The ones involving Hogan with his "that doesn't work for me brother" are numerous. Shawn Michaels both in and out of the ring are also duly noted - do you have any that have intrigued or just stuck with you?
If you heard of any good ones- please share!

[Mercenary]

SCSA and Double J?

[XL]

Hogan was the master of it, as you've said.

I remember seeing a list here showing that he'd take time off knowing that business would be bad regardless (Football season for example) then pop back up as business began to improve again.

[XL]

1985 - Would Hogan be willing to work a program with Rick Steamboat if Steamboat agreed to
turn heel? No. Give him Big John Studd instead.
1986 - Hogan-Savage is tentatively planned for WM 2, after the two had feuded in house
shows which Savage had won by DQ or countout. Hogan nixes the idea of facing the dynamic,
atheltic Savage at 'Mania, even though he would be booked to win. Hogan handpicks King
Kong Bundy to embarass in a cage match. Savage wrestles George Steele far down the
undercard.
1986 - Hogan agrees to work with Paul Orndorff, but won't do the job to him. Hogan agrees
only because he is guaranteed a win at a huge event. He defeats Orndorff in a cage match on
SNME to end the feud.
1987 - Hogan again turns down the idea of feuding with Savage; but suggests turning him
face, so Hogan can step aside for awhile, film a movie and get some needed rest.
Savage turns face that summer.
1988 - Hogan agrees to "drop" the belt to Andre, but only under questionable circumstances to
preserve his character. Hogan agrees to "give the rub" to Savage at WM IV. Hogan only agrees
because he is promised he will get the title back at WM 5.
1988 - Six months later, as Savage is having a successful run, Hogan suggests putting them
together as a team "Mega Powers" and they headline Summerslam. Hogan is no longer the
champion - but still in the main event.
1989 - Hogan finally meets Savage at Wrestlemania V. Hogan beats him for the title. Rather
than face Savage in the anticipated rematch at Summerslam, or a program with Rick Rude as
creative suggests - Hogan decides to go a different route.
Hogan suggests a tag team match, pitting himself and his close friend Brutus Beefcake,
against Savage and an ACTOR, Tiny Lister who played Zeus in the Hogan film "No Holds
Barred". The film opened that summer to decent business, so Hogan uses a WWE PPV to
promote the film, while "giving the rub" to his friend Beefcake.
1990 - Hogan agrees to drop the belt to Ultimate Warrior at Wrestlemania. Only with a
guarantee of an extended break and the promise he would get the title back. A month after
'Mania, Hogan is "attacked" by Earthquake and off TV for a few months. After teasing
retirement on TV, Hogan returns at Summerslam as "Immortal" and vanquishes his good friend
John Tenta (Earthquake).
1990 - To preserve the Warrior character, creative decides he will drop the title to someone
OTHER than Hogan. Despite the allure of a Hogan/Warrior rematch - Randy Savage is rumored
to be the man Warrior will drop the belt to at Royal Rumble '91. Hogan suggests Sgt Slaughter.
Slaughter has just returned as an "Iraqi sympathizer" and Hogan pushes for Slaughter to beat
Warrior, then he can beat Slaughter to regain the belt.
1991 - Hogan defeats Slaughter a few months after "Desert Storm" starts. He waves his flag
and defeats the Iraqi villan at Wrestlemania. After headlining Wrestlemania for the past two
years, Savage and Warrior are reduced to the undercard.
1991 - Hogan again decides against a rematch with Warrior at Summerslam, and suggests they
team together against Slaughter & The Iron Shiek. Six months after he had beaten Slaughter for
the belt, he feels the feud is not over and that fans will tune in to watch him team with Warrior
against "the enemy".
1991 - Hogan agrees to drop the title to Undertaker, but refuses to do a clean job to him. Ric
Flair interferes in the match with a chair and 'Taker gets the win.
1992 - McMahon decides that Flair will win the title at Royal Rumble, then drop the title to
Hogan in a "dream match" at Wrestlemania VIII. Hogan decides he wants to take another
extended break after 'Mania. He suggests Flair drop the title to Savage instead and he can
work with Sid Vicious and "give him the rub".
Despite the fact that Flair/Savage is the WWE Title match, it is placed in the middle of the
show. Hogan and the lumbering Sid Vicious close the show. The first time the WWE Champion
has not been in the main event of Wrestlemania.
1993 - Hogan agrees to return to team with Brutus Beefcake against Money Inc. at
Wrestlemania and it appears to be the first time he will NOT be in the main event.
When Hogan learns that WWE Champion Bret Hart is scheduled to drop the title to Yokozuna,
he informs McMahon that this will be the first Wrestlemania that a face doesn't win the main
event and the "people aren't gonna like it". Hogan suggests "surprising" the audience by
challenging Yoko immediately afterward and beating him to win the WWE Title. Vince McMahon
agees. Hogan beats Yoko to regain the title.
1993 - McMahon and WWE creative suggests Hogan and Bret Hart engage in a face vs face
match at Summerslam that will see Hogan "pass the torch" to Hart and drop the title.
Hogan turned the idea down, and agreed to drop the title back to Yokozuna, who in turn
would drop it to Hart at SS. Some critics believe, however, that Hogan simply didn't want to
drop the title to the new flagship of the company.
Hogan drops the belt to Yoko at KOTR (but doesn't drop it cleanly), while WWE goes with the
failed Lex Luger "US Express" idea. Hogan leaves WWE two months later and does not appear
at Summerslam.
1994 - Hogan signs with WCW after being courted by Ric Flair and Eric Bischoff. Hogan
insisted on "complete creative control" over the Hulk Hogan character and a certain
perrcentage of EACH PPV TOTAL REVENUE.
1994 - A three match series is planned with Hogan/Flair. Hogan would win the first, Flair
would regain it and Hogan would win the finale. All parties agree.
Hogan wins the WCW World Title from Ric Flair in his first match back in a year. When the time
comes for Flair to regain the title, Hogan refuses, saying the fans "weren't ready for him to
drop it".
Flair later admits in his book, that fans were already booing Hogan at shows, but that WCW
was dubbing in a "cheering crowd soundtrack".
The subsequent PPVs featuring Flair/Hogan fail to sell.
1994 - Hogan negotiates for former WWE stars and Hogan allies Brutus Beefcake, Earthquake
and Typhoon to join WCW.
Creative suggests Hogan face Sting in a face vs face "dream match" at Starrcade. Hogan
decides it makes better sense for him to face Beefcake as the heel, "The Butcher". The PPV
flops.
1995 - Hogan convinces Randy Savage to leave WWE and join WCW. Instead of starting a feud
between the two former WWE Champions, Hogan insists on teaming with Savage against Kevin
Sullivan and his 3 Faces of Fear.
1995 - Hogan agrees to work with Vader, but the program soon falls apart when both acuse
the other of "not selling for the other".
Fans are steadily losing interest in WCW. The company begins to falter seriously, as executives
point at the Hogan contract and "creative control" agreement as being a main culprit. Hogan
takes extended time off - but remains the highest paid man on the roster.
1996 - With WCW desperate to compete with WWE, WCW signs Hall and Nash and plot the NWO
angle. Hogan is booked to turn heel and he agrees. The angle is a smash. Within weeks,
Hogan wins the World Title from The Giant.
Instead of milking fresh matchups as a heel, Hogan decides that WCW should bring in Roddy
Piper. Despite the possibility of a Starrcade matchup with Lex Luger or The Giant - Hogan
faces Piper in a cage match in the main event. Hogan puts over Piper via the sleeperhold, in a
NON-TITLE match.
1997 - Hogan feuds with Piper and Savage, while turning down suggestions he put over Luger
or Diamind Dallas Page for the title. He appears weekly, but rarely wrestles on TV, while still
remaining the highest paid star in WCW.
1997 - In his much hyped Starrcade match with Sting, it was decided that Hogan would beat
Sting after an alleged "fast count" by referee Nick Patrick. WCW's newly contracted Bret Hart
would accuse Patrick and have the match restarted with Sting winning by submission.
Hogan reportedly paid off referee Patrick, to count normally and make it look like Hogan had
pinned Sting cleanly. When this DID happen, the planned finish played out - but fans booed
because it was clearly botched and made Sting look bad.
1998 - Hogan agreed to put over Goldberg cleanly on Nitro, but with the condition that Karl
Malone & DDP get involved to prompt a Hogan/Dennis Rodman team to debut on PPV at Bash
At The Beach. Hogan promoted the match on "The Tonight Show" and later teamed with
Bischoff against DDP and Jay Leno HIMSELF!
The Hogan celebrity tag team matches stole all the attention while WCW Champion Goldberg
was all but ignored.
1999 - After six months without the title, and still being the top guy, Hogan regained the title
from Kevin Nash in the "Fingerpoke of Doom" incident. Openly flaunting his creative control
clause. He would lose the title, but not cleanly to Ric Flair.
When the NWO angle began to lose serious steam, Hogan turned face again. Randy Savage
had recently turned heel and regained the WCW Title.
Once again, this time conviently as a face, Hogan defeated Savage to regain the title.
Despite having names like Hart, Luger and Sting to work with Savage - the title went baclk to
Hogan. At his request.

[XL]

Continued....



2000 - Hogan begins feuding with WCW booker Vince Russo over how he's being used. Russo
wanted to push younger stars and to appease Russo only, Hogan worked with young Billy
Kidman.
When a WCW Title match with Jeff Jarrett was booked, Russo had Jarrett winning. Hogan
refused, because his contract with WCW was almost up and he feared Russo wouldn't use him
on future PPV events. Meaning Hogan would lose out on serious cash.
Russo pulled a swerve on Hogan by having Jarrett lay down for him intentionally. Hogan did
so, winning the belt - then was immeditaely stripped of it.
Hogan was never seen in WCW again.
2002 - Hogan accepts an offer to return to WWE and reunite the original NWO, with the
understanding he would be in a featured match with The Rock at Wrestlemania X8.
Hogan scored a huge deal from WWE, and agreed to put over The Rock. He suggests they
close the show as he felt "they had drawn the crowd" - but McMahon and specifically Triple H
refuse to put the WWE Title match in a secondary role.
Hogan is later booked to win the title from Triple H, but is dissapointed when it comes with
the condition he drop it to Undertaker a month later.
After being booked to lose to Kurt Angle at KOTR 2002, Hogan decided he needed time off
again. Despite only having been back for all of four months.
Hogan is convinced to stay long enough to get in a quick tag team championship win with
Edge. He is then asked to put over Brock Lesnar, which he does.
He is dissatisfied with his role, because he isn't be portrayed the way "he thought he would".
He takes another "extended brea" after the Lesnar match.
2003 - He returns at the request of Vince McMahon and the promise of a big Wrestlemania
payday. Their street fight is a featured match on the card.
With the WWE Title now revolving around much younger wrestlers, Hogan is frustrated by
Creatives decision to book him in a secondary role on Smackdown and he leaves WWE again.
2004 - Hogan is openly courted by TNA Wrestling, but the deal hits a snag when Hogan was
reportedly told he would have to put over Jarrett at some point. Hogan begins to complain of
"knee problems" as the deal falls apart.
2005 - Hogan is inducted into the Hall of Fame, and agrees to the idea of a Hogan/Shawn
Michaels match at Summerslam.
McMahon proposes two matches, with each winning one. Hogan agrees.
After spending all of his comeback as a face, HBK agrees to turn heel to sell the match.
Michaels carries a clearly laboring Hogan through a decent match at Summerslam, and HBK
does the clean job to Hogan.
The second match in the series is called off, when Hogan began to complain "his knee was
acting up again".
Hence, the Hogan win over HBK stands as their one and only meeting.
2005 - Hogan proposes the"Dream Match" scenario of Hogan vs Steve Austin to WWE Creative
for Wrestlemania. Austin says no - citing the HBK scenario at Summerslam. He refuses to put
Hogan over.
2006 - Hogan is asked to appear at Summerslam and face Randy Orton. He agrees with the
rumoured condition that WWE pushes his daughter Brooke's debut CD.
Instead of putting over "The Legend Killer", Hogan flexes his "creative control".
Despite being 53 at the time, having wrestled one match in over a year, and bad knees, Hogan
defeats the 26 year old former World Champion via clean pinfall.

[XL]

Not the list I was looking for, but some examples of Hogan's "politics".

[McLegend]

I'm a big Anti-Hogan mark over here, but Shawn Michaels feud ending after one match was Shawn's fault.

He made fun of the Summerslam match as he was wrestling said match with Hogan, and then the next night he openly made fun of Hogan and the match on Raw. Don't get me the wrong the whole thing was awesome, but I don't blame Hogan for not wanting a second match against Shawn Michaels.

[DAMN iNATOR]

Hogan was totally right about WrestleMania x8 and being in the main event, IMO (PS - SHISEN WAS THERE...that's an exclusive scoop I got from the man hjmself! WOO WRASSLIN'!)

[Bad News Gertner]

Hogan is just brilliant.

[NormanSmiley]

Originally Posted by King Gertner Hogan is just shit.

[Maluco]

One thing I will say about Hogan was that he played the game perfectly. He realised very early that you had to play the system to make the money continually. If he was a businessman, he would be getting praised.

Even though he protected himself, he always made money for the people he worked with and encouraged them to "get their share" too. Kamala has said that recently about him.

He was selfish and didn't do what was best for the business at times, but he def made the most out of his own career and made the cash while he could.

[Simple Fan]

Hall had to be pretty bad at politicking to never get a World title. Couldn't even get one when Nash was booking the show. Out of all the Kliq he had to be the worst politician.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Hall had to have been a good politicker to pull all the crazy shit he pulled and still have a job in a prominent position.

[Simple Fan]

True, seemed like he was just content with being in the spotlight.

[DAMN iNATOR]

X-Pac had to be a terrible politicker not to be able to talk the crowds into givibg hin more heat...

[hb2k]

I'm a big Anti-Hogan mark over here, but Shawn Michaels feud ending after one match was Shawn's fault. He made fun of the Summerslam match as he was wrestling said match with Hogan, and then the next night he openly made fun of Hogan and the match on Raw. Don't get me the wrong the whole thing was awesome, but I don't blame Hogan for not wanting a second match against Shawn Michaels.

Well, Shawn did that promo because they weren't doing another match. Shawn wanted a two match series where they'd split a match apiece, Hogan didn't want to lose to him, so they did the one and done and Shawn buried it the next night and they started the new angle for him during the same promo (with Masters, of all people), so it was over before Shawn did that.

Hogan's got quite the rap sheet. The maneouvering around Goldberg in 98 was horrific, losing the WCW Title on the provision he break the streak, and even when he didn't, the chain of events led to him as top heel, the streak is broken, and Nash is underneath Hogan, top guy, streak over. All the while Goldberg is in lame duck feuds while Hogan's stuff takes prominence against Jay Leno and the Warrior. The damage it did was amazing.

Shisen was at X-8? Why hasn't he mentioned this?

[#1-norm-fan]

Most of the politicking Hogan did was right. You can't really argue with the results. At least not during his initial WWE run and the business him and all the things he supposedly politicked for did.

Triple H harmed business way more by putting himself over anyone and everyone while people were tuning out in droves.

[Innovator]

Using an example of Hogan without him being the spotlight of it, TNA spent the better part of a year building up Bobby Roode as the new top babyface. A day before Bound for Glory where Roode is facing a one legged Kurt Angle, Hogan does a radio interview and says that Roode doesn't have it as a face and James Storm is better.

Roode loses in 8 minutes and on Impact James Storm wins the title in a minute.

[Bad News Gertner]

Originally Posted by hb2k Well, Shawn did that promo because they weren't doing another match. Shawn wanted a two match series where they'd split a match apiece, Hogan didn't want to lose to him, so they did the one and done and Shawn buried it the next night and they started the new angle for him during the same promo (with Masters, of all people), so it was over before Shawn did that. Hogan's got quite the rap sheet. The maneouvering around Goldberg in 98 was horrific, losing the WCW Title on the provision he break the streak, and even when he didn't, the chain of events led to him as top heel, the streak is broken, and Nash is underneath Hogan, top guy, streak over. All the while Goldberg is in lame duck feuds while Hogan's stuff takes prominence against Jay Leno and the Warrior. The damage it did was amazing. Shisen was at X-8? Why hasn't he mentioned this?

Shisen is my best friend off the forums and he has never mentioned being at Wrestlemania 18 to me before. First I'm hearing.of this. I"m hoping Shisen confirms this.

[NormanSmiley]

Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan Most of the politicking Hogan did was right. You can't really argue with the results. At least not during his initial WWE run and the business him and all the things he supposedly politicked for did. Triple H harmed business way more by putting himself over anyone and everyone while people were tuning out in droves.

Jesus, dont forget to tickle hulk's balls while you are down there

[Bad News Gertner]

Why, it's true.

[Fignuts]

Shisen has mentioned it a bunch of times

[#1-norm-fan]

Originally Posted by NormanSmiley Jesus, dont forget to tickle hulk's balls while you are down there

My mistake. Hogan did terrible business. Worst draw ever. Definitely should have put Bret over to help lead WWE into that huge boom period he ushered in.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan My mistake. Hogan did terrible business. Worst draw ever. Definitely should have put Bret over to help lead WWE into that huge boom period he ushered in.

If Hogan wasn't going to be there, he could have done the favour for Bret. If he had done the favour for Bret and given him the rub, it would have elevated Bret in the fan's eyes and made him seem as a big time transcending type character. But instead, Bret was stuck headlining shows against Papa Shango.

[NormanSmiley]

I guess you are slow so we have to spell it out for you. Justifying hogan's routine then villifying hhh for the same thing is what makes you the hogan deepthroater. And for the record it was mania 8 where the hogan bullshit got out of control, not with bret

[The CyNick]

Almost every top guy plays politics

You think its a coincidence while Bret Hart was on top he was working with his brother and his brother in law most of his time on top?

Shawn Michaels had a lot of programs with his buddies.

Austin was notorious for turning down angles and programs if it didnt appeal to him. Hell he walked out on doing ONE JOB. Now granted, I think he was right, but he still played politics.

Everyone does it. And why wouldnt you? You want to work with guys you are comfortable with. You want to put input into your storylines, because it matters to you, and you have the boss' ear.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

That goes for any line of work, not just pro wrasslin. Gotta protect your livelihood

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

But the point I'm making, is whether it's Hogan's fault, or Vince's fault for giving Hogan too much clout.... Hogan not doing the favour for Bret really kicked Bret's push in the balls, and realistically, losing to Bret would not have hurt Hogan.

[#1-norm-fan]

Originally Posted by NormanSmiley I guess you are slow so we have to spell it out for you. Justifying hogan's routine then villifying hhh for the same thing is what makes you the hogan deepthroater. And for the record it was mania 8 where the hogan bullshit got out of control, not with bret

I justified it because business was amazing when Hogan was doing it and business turned to shit when Triple H was doing it. I said that was why. Like... I said those actual words. In clear English.

[The CyNick]

Originally Posted by Gorgeous Dale Newstead But the point I'm making, is whether it's Hogan's fault, or Vince's fault for giving Hogan too much clout.... Hogan not doing the favour for Bret really kicked Bret's push in the balls, and realistically, losing to Bret would not have hurt Hogan.

Bret losing to Shawn in Montreal would have kick started HBK as a heel champ, and would have set the stage for Austin to beat him

Austin losing to Brock would have set the stage for Brock taking over as the top guy

And on it goes

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Originally Posted by The CyNick Bret losing to Shawn in Montreal would have kick started HBK as a heel champ, and would have set the stage for Austin to beat him Austin losing to Brock would have set the stage for Brock taking over as the top guy And on it goes

Bret would have done the job outside of Montreal and would have done it the next night (whether or not he should have done it in Montreal is another conversation). And losing to Michaels in Montreal could conceivably hurt Bret, especially having been made to look like such chump change in the lead up, and WCW apparently had brought him in especially for the Canadian marquee. Plus, Michaels had his part in Bret not wanting to do business.

Austin had no problem losing to Brock (so he claims) if it wasn't just a one off match on RAW with no real build and Brock did not need Austin's scalp because he was on a tear as it was. Such rushed booking would make seem Austin look like an afterthought and therefore hurt him.

I don't think those examples hold much weight.

Hogan not jobbing to Bret really could have aided the transition into the new generation and it wouldn't have hurt hogan a bit. He was on his way out and he went into business for himself 100 per cent. It was straight up vindictive nonsense.

[The CyNick]

Originally Posted by Gorgeous Dale Newstead Bret would have done the job outside of Montreal and would have done it the next night (whether or not he should have done it in Montreal is another conversation). And losing to Michaels in Montreal could conceivably hurt Bret, especially having been made to look like such chump change in the lead up, and WCW apparently had brought him in especially for the Canadian marquee. Plus, Michaels had his part in Bret not wanting to do business. Austin had no problem losing to Brock (so he claims) if it wasn't just a one off match on RAW with no real build and Brock did not need Austin's scalp because he was on a tear as it was. Such rushed booking would make seem Austin look like an afterthought and therefore hurt him. I don't think those examples hold much weight. Hogan not jobbing to Bret really could have aided the transition into the new generation and it wouldn't have hurt hogan a bit. He was on his way out and he went into business for himself 100 per cent. It was straight up vindictive nonsense.

All of those instances would have helped the guy going over. The guy asked to do the favours refused. Thats the end of the story.

[McLegend]

Originally Posted by hb2k Well, Shawn did that promo because they weren't doing another match. Shawn wanted a two match series where they'd split a match apiece, Hogan didn't want to lose to him, so they did the one and done and Shawn buried it the next night and they started the new angle for him during the same promo (with Masters, of all people), so it was over before Shawn did that.

I really think it was because of the HBK promo on Raw after SummerSlam why he backed out. I'm like 95% positive it happened that way. Either way Hogan is a douche.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Originally Posted by The CyNick All of those instances would have helped the guy going over. The guy asked to do the favours refused. Thats the end of the story.

But it's not, because I added other variables. But you know, feel free to argue circularly and ignore my points

Realisticially, there was NOBODY for Hart to go over in that time that would make him seem on the level of Hogan, upon Hogan's exit other than Hogan himself.

Brock had the entire damned roster and could have had a match with Austin with build down the road.

Shawn had already beaten Bret and was already a great heel at that point.

As I said, your examples don't hold that much weight. I'm a fan of Hogan's work, and I get his politicking, but sometimes he was far more of a cunt than most, this being a HUGE example.

[McLegend]

Politics is what makes the world go around, and is in every job in any line of work. You have to learn the system, and know how to play it.

However when it's completely detrimental to a company like Sting at Starrcade is when someone above the wrestlers have to step in.

Also I don't believe Hogan paid Nick Patrick to botch the count, but I fully believe Hogan was involved 1000%. It's still the dumbest end to huge angle in the history of wrestling.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Thank you McLegend. That's all I'm getting at. Whether it's that bullshit WM9 Finish leading into NOTHING with Bret, or that bullshit with Sting, is when it's just fucking ridiculous.

And with Hulk, yeah I think somebody needed to stand up to him. You let someone get away with so much, of course they're going to keep pulling the same horse shit.

[McLegend]

I'm going to think about Starrcade 97 all night now.

I'm kind of pissed.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

lol just a seething ball of nostalgic adolescent rage

[McLegend]

I wasn't even close to being a smart fan at the time, but even I knew it was the dumbest thing ever.

There is no way 6 people sitting around a table come up with that decision. That was done to just benefit one person, and that one person is coming with that idea.

I'm making a wild claim here.

If Sting wins that match cleanly he is viewed way differently today. It's not is Sting a legend? Like it is today. It's Sting is a legend. Hogan hurt Sting's entire career that night.

I hate that match so fucking much.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

it's just so bush league